For antivaxers, aluminum is the new mercury.

Let me explain, for the benefit of those not familiar with the antivaccine movement. For antivaxers, it is, first and foremost, always about the vaccines. Always. Whatever the chronic health issue in children, vaccines must have done it. Autism? It’s the vaccines. Sudden infant death syndrome? Vaccines, of course. Autoimmune diseases? Obviously it must be the vaccines causing it. Obesity, diabetes, ADHD? Come on, you know the answer!

Because antivaxers will never let go of their obsession with vaccines as The One True Cause Of All Childhood Health Problems, the explanation for how vaccines supposedly cause all this harm are ever morphing in response to disconfirming evidence. Here’s an example. Back in the late 1990s and early 2000s, antivaxers in the US (as opposed to in the UK, where the MMR vaccine was the bogeyman) focused on mercury in vaccines as the cause of autism. That’s because many childhood vaccines contained thimerosal, a preservative that contains mercury. In an overly cautious bit of worshiping at the altar of the precautionary principle, in 1999 the CDC recommended removing the thimerosal from childhood vaccines, and as a result it was removed from most vaccines by the end of 2001. (Some flu vaccines continued to contain thimerosal for years after that, but no other childhood vaccine did, and these days it’s uncommon for thimerosal-containing vaccines of any kind.)

More importantly, the removal of thimerosal from childhood vaccines provided a natural experiment to test the hypothesis that mercury causes or predisposes to autism. After all, if mercury in vaccines caused autism, the near-complete removal of that mercury from childhood vaccines in a short period of time should have resulted in a decline in autism prevalence beginning a few years after the removal. Guess what happened? Autism prevalence didn’t decline. It continued to rise. To scientists, this observation was a highly convincing falsification of the hypothesis through a convenient natural experiment, although those who belong to the strain of antivaccine movement sometimes referred to as the mercury militia still flog mercury as a cause of autism even now. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. is perhaps the most famous mercury militia member, although of late he’s been sounding more and more like a run-of-the-mill antivaxer.

Which brings us to aluminum.

With mercury in vaccines pretty definitively eliminated as The One True Cause Of Autism, antivaxers started looking for other ingredients to blame for autism because, as I said before, it’s first, foremost, and always all about the vaccines. So naturally they shifted their attention to the aluminum adjuvants in many vaccines. Adjuvants are compounds added to vaccine in order to boost the immune response to the antigen used, and aluminum salts have been used as effective adjuvants for many years now and have an excellent safety record. None of that has stopped antivaxers from trying to make aluminum the new mercury by blaming aluminum-containing vaccines for autism. I was reminded by this earlier this week when my e-mail was flooded with messages about new study being flogged by antivaxers in spectacularly ignorant ways, including three—yes, three—identical messages from a certain antivaxer with a severe case of Dunning-Kruger and delusions of grandeur basically challenging me to review this study and assuring me that antivaxers would be citing it for a long time. Well, whenever I receive messages like that, particularly annoying repetition, my answer is: Be very careful what you wish for.

Also: Challenge accepted.

Which brings us to the study itself. It’s by antivaccine “researchers” whose previous studies and review articles I’ve discussed before. Yes, I’m referring to Christopher Shaw and Lucija Tomljenovic in the Department of Ophthalmology at the University of British Columbia. Both have a long history of publishing antivaccine “research,” mainly falsely blaming the aluminum adjuvants in vaccines for autism and, well, just about any health problem children have and blaming Gardasil for premature ovarian failure and all manner of woes up to and including death. Shaw was even prominently featured in the rabidly antivaccine movie The Greater Good. Not surprisingly, they’ve had a paper retracted, as well..

This time around, they’ve gone back to their old stomping grounds, the Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry, and, along with two other co-authors, published Subcutaneous injections of aluminum at vaccine adjuvant levels activate innate immune genes in mouse brain that are homologous with biomarkers of autism. It’s where they published review article in 2011 full of antivaccine misinformation and distortions. So, given Shaw and Tomljenovic’s history, it is not unreasonable to be suspicious of this study as well. But, hey, you never know. Maybe it’s a good study that sheds light on an important aspect of the pathogenesis of autism…Ah, who’m I kidding? It’s nothing of the sort. It’s yet another study designed to imply that aluminum adjuvants cause autism.

Before we look at the study itself, specifically the experiments included in it, let’s consider the hypothesis being tested, because experiments in any study should be directed at falsifying the hypothesis. Unfortunately, there is no clear statement of hypothesis where it belongs, namely in the introduction. Instead, what we get is this:

Given that infants worldwide are regularly exposed to Al adjuvants through routine pediatric vaccinations, it seemed warranted to reassess the neurotoxicity of Al in order to determine whether Al may be considered as one of the potential environmental triggers involved in ASD.

In order to unveil the possible causal relationship between behavioral abnormalities associated with autism and Al exposure, we initially injected the Al adjuvant in multiple doses (mimicking the routine pediatric vaccine schedule) to neonatal CD-1 mice of both sexes.

This is basically a fishing expedition in which the only real hypothesis is that “aluminum in vaccines is bad and causes bad immune system things to happen in the brain.” “Fishing expeditions” in science are studies in which the hypothesis is not clear and the investigators are looking for some sort of effect that they suspect they will find. In fairness, fishing expeditions are not a bad thing in and of themselves—indeed, they are often a necessary first step in many areas of research—but they are hypothesis-generating, not hypothesis confirming. After all, there isn’t a clear hypothesis to test; otherwise it wouldn’t be a fishing expedition. The point is that this study does not confirm or refute any hypothesis, much less provide any sort of slam-dunk evidence that aluminum adjuvants cause autism.

Moving along, I note that this is a mouse experiment, and somehow antivaxers are selling this as compelling evidence that vaccines cause autism through their aluminum adjuvants causing an inflammatory reaction in the brain. Now, seriously. Mouse models can be useful for a lot of things, but, viewed critcally, for the most part autism is not really one of them. After all, autism is a human neurodevelopmental disorder diagnosed entirely by behavioral changes, and correlating mouse behavior with human behavior is very problematic. Indeed, correlating the behavior of any animal, even a primate, with human behavior is fraught with problems. Basically, there is no well-accepted single animal model of autism, and autism research has been littered with mouse models of autism that were found to be very much wanting. (“Rain mouse,” anyone?) Basically, despite the existence of many mouse strains touted to be relevant to autism, almost none of them are truly relevant because:

A good animal model satisfies three fundamental criteria. The first, called face validity, requires sufficient similarities between the phenotype of the mice and symptoms of the human disorder. The second, called construct validity, is achieved if the biological cause of the human disease is replicated in the mouse — for example, when an autism-associated gene is mutated in mice. Finally, a mouse model has predictive validity if treatments improve both the human symptoms of the disorder and the mouse phenotype.

Diagnosis of autism is purely behavioral and requires clearly defined symptoms in each of three core categories: abnormal social interactions, impaired communication and repetitive behavior. One of the challenges in studying mouse models is determining which behaviors from the mouse repertoire could be considered analogous to these symptoms.

And:

So far, very few of these mouse models display behavioral phenotypes relevant to all three core domains of autism. What’s more, in some cases, physical problems such as poor general health following seizures, or low exploratory activity, produce false positives that prevent the interpretation of more complex, autism-relevant phenotypes.

Pay particular attention to the part about construct validity. The assumption behind this study is that immune changes in the brain of mice will be relevant to immune activation in the brains of autistic humans. That is an assumption that hasn’t yet been confirmed with sufficient rigor to view this study’s results as any sort of compelling evidence that aluminum adjuvants cause autism. Yes, the authors include this important-looking diagram describing how they think immune system activation causes autism (click to embiggen):

In the end, though, as impressive as it is, the relevance of this chart to autism is questionable at best, as is the relevance of this study. So let’s look at the mouse strain chosen by the investigators, CD-1 mice. Basically, there’s nothing particularly “autistic” (even in terms of existing mouse models purported to be relevant to autism) about these mice, which are described in most catalogues of companies selling them as “general purpose.” Basically, the authors used them because they had used them before in previous studies in which they reported that aluminum injections caused motor neuron degeneration (nope, no autism) and another crappy paper in the same journal from 2013 purporting to link aluminum with adverse neurological outcomes. That’s it.

As for the experiment itself, neonatal mice were divided into two groups, a control group that received saline injections and the experimental group received injections of aluminum hydroxide in doses timed such that they that purportedly mimicked the pediatric vaccine schedule. Looking over the schedule used, I can’t help but note that there’s a huge difference between human infant development and mouse development. Basically, the mice received aluminum doses claimed to be the same as what human babies get by weight six times in the first 17 days of life. By comparison, in human babies these doses are separated by months. In addition, in human babies, vaccines are injected intramuscularly (in a muscle). In this study, the mice were injected subcutaneously (under the skin). This difference immediately calls into question applicability and construct validity. The authors stated that they did it because they wanted to follow previously utilized protocols in their laboratory. In some cases, that can be a reasonable rationale for an experimental choice, but in this case the original choice was questionable in the first place. Blindly sticking with the same bad choice is just dumb.

So what were the endpoints examined in the mice injected with aluminum hydroxide compared to saline controls? After 16 weeks, the mice were euthanized and their brains harvested to measure gene expression and the levels of the proteins of interest. Five males and five females from each group were “randomly paired” for “gene expression profiling.” Now, when I think of gene expression profiling, I usually think of either cDNA microarray experiments, in which the levels of thousands of genes are measured at the same time, or next generation sequencing, in which the level of every RNA transcript in the cell can be measured simultaneously. That doesn’t appear to be what the authors did. Instead, they used a technique known as PCR to measure the messenger RNA levels of a series of cytokines. Basically, they examined the amount of RNA coding for various immune proteins in the brain chosen by the authors as relevant to inflammation. The authors also did Western blots for many of those proteins, which is a test in which proteins are separated on a gel, blotted to a filter, and then probed with specific antibodies, resulting in bands that can be measured by a number of techniques, including autoradiography or chemiluminescence, both of which can be recorded on film on which the relevant bands can be visualized. Basically, what the authors did wasn’t really gene expression profiling. It was measuring a bunch of genes and proteins and hoping to find a difference.

There’s an even weirder thing. The authors didn’t use quantitative real time reverse transcriptase PCR, which has been the state-of-the-art for measuring RNA message levels for quite some time. Rather, they used a very old, very clunky form of PCR that can only produce—at best—semiquantitative results. (That’s why we used to call it semiquantitative PCR.) Quite frankly, in this day and age, there is absolutely zero excuse for choosing this method for quantifying gene transcripts. If I were a reviewer for this article, I would have recommended not publishing it based on this deficiency alone. Real time PCR machines, once very expensive and uncommon, are widely available. (Hell, I managed to afford very simple one in my lab nearly 15 years ago.) Any basic or translational science department worth its salt has at least one available to its researchers.

The reason that this semiquantitative technique is considered inadequate is that the amount of PCR product grows exponentially, roughly doubling with every cycle of PCR, asymptotically approaching a maximum as the primers are used up.
It usually takes around 30-35 cycles before everything saturates and the differences observed in the intensity of the DNA bands when they are separated on a gel become indistinguishable. That’s why PCR was traditionally and originally primarily considered a “yes/no” test. Either the RNA being measured was there and produced a PCR band, or it didn’t. In this case, the authors used 30 cycles, which is more than enough to result in saturation. (Usually semiquantitative PCR stops around 20-25 cycles or even less.) And I didn’t even (yet) mention how the authors didn’t use DNAse to eliminate the small amounts of DNA that contaminate nearly all RNA isolations. Basically, the primers used for PCR pick up DNA as well as any any RNA, and DNA for the genes of interest will be guaranteed to contaminate the specimens without DNAse treatment. Yes, you molecular biologists out there, I know that’s simplistic, but my audience doesn’t consist of molecular biologists.

Now, take a look at Figures 1A and 1B as well as Figures 2A and 2B. (You can do it if you want. The article is open access.) Look at the raw bands in the A panels of the figures. Do you see much difference, except for IFNG (interferon gamma) in Figure 1A? I don’t. What I see are bands of roughly the same intensity, even the ones that are claimed to vary by three-fold. In other words, I basically am very skeptical that the investigators saw much of difference in gene expression between controls and the aluminum-treated mice. In fairness, for the most part, the protein levels as measured by Western blot did correlate with what was found on PCR, but there’s another odd thing. The investigators didn’t do Western blots for all the same proteins whose gene expression they measured by PCR. Of course, they present primers for 27 genes, but only show blots for 18 (17 inflammatory genes plus beta actin, which was used as a standard to normalize the values for the other 17 genes).

I also question the statistical tests chosen by the authors. Basically, they examined each gene separately and used Student’s t-test to assess statistical significance. However, in reality they did many comparisons, at least 17, and there’s no evidence that the authors controlled for multiple comparisons. If one chooses statistical significance to occur at p < 0.05 and compares 20 samples, by random chance alone at least one will be different. Add to that the fact that there is no mention of whether the people performing the assays were blinded to experimental group, and there's a big problem. Basic science researchers often think that blinding isn't necessary in their work, but there is a potential for unconscious bias that they all too often don't appreciate. For example, the authors used Image J, free image processing software developed by the NIH. I've used Image J before. It's a commonly used app used to quantify the density of bands on gels, even though it's old software and hasn't been updated in years. Basically, it involves manually drawing outlines of the bands, setting the background, and then letting the software calculate the density of the bands. The potential for bias shows up in how you draw the lines around the bands and set the backgrounds. As oblivious as they seem to be to this basic fact, basic scientists are just as prone to unconscious bias as the rest of us, and, absent blinding, in a study like this there is definitely the potential for unconscious bias to affect the results. In fairness, few basic science researchers bother to blind whoever is quantifying Western blots or ethidium bromide-stained DNA gels of PCR products, but that's just a systemic problem in biomedical research that I not infrequently invoke when I review papers. Shaw and Tomljenovic are merely making the same mistake that at least 90% of basic scientists make.

But let’s step back and take the authors’ results at face value for a moment. Let’s assume that what is reported is a real effect. In the rest of the paper, the authors present evidence of changes in gene expression that suggest the activation of a molecular signaling pathway controlled by a molecule called NF-κB and that male mice were more susceptible to this effect than females. (Just like autism!) Funny, but I know NF-κB. I’ve published on NF-κB. I had an NIH R01 grant to study how my favorite protein affected NF-κB. True, I ended up abandoning that line of research because I hit some dead ends. True, I’m not as familiar with NF-κB as I used to be. But I do know enough to know that NF-κB is easy to activate and very nonspecific. I used to joke that just looking at my cells funny would activate NF-κB signaling. Also, NF-κB activation is indeed associated with inflammation, but so what? What we have is an artificial model in which the mice are dosed much more frequently with aluminum than human infants. Does this have any relevance to the human brain or to human autism? who knows? Probably not. No, almost certainly not.

Also, the mouse immune system is different from the human immune system. None of this stops the authors from concluding:

Based on the data we have obtained to date, we propose a tentative working hypothesis of a molecular cascade that may serve to explain a causal link between Al and the innate immune response in the brain. In this proposed scheme, Al may be carried by the macrophages via a Trojan horse mechanism similar to that described for the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and hepatitis C viruses, travelling across the blood-brain-barrier to invade the CNS. Once inside the CNS, Al activates various proinflammatory factors and inhibits NF-κB inhibitors, the latter leading to activation of the NF-κB signaling pathway and the release of additional immune factors. Alternatively, the activation of the brain’s immune system by Al may also occur without Al traversing the blood-brain barrier, via neuroimmuno-endocrine signaling. Either way, it appears evident that the innate immune response in the brain can be activated as a result of peripheral immune stimuli. The ultimate consequence of innate immune over-stimulation in the CNS is the disruption of normal neurodevelopmental pathways resulting in autistic behavior.

That’s what we call in the business conclusions not supported by the findings in a study. On a more “meta” level, it’s not even clear whether the markers of inflammation observed in autistic brains are causative or an epiphenomenon. As Skeptical Raptor noted. It could be that the inflammation reported is caused by whatever the primary changes in the brain that result in autism. Cause and effect are nowhere near clear. One can’t help but note that many of the infections vaccinated against cause way more activation of the immune system and cytokines than vaccination.

So what are we left with?

Basically, what we have is yet another mouse study of autism. The study purports to show that aluminum adjuvants cause some sort of “neuroinflammation,” which, it is assumed, equals autism. By even the most charitable interpretation, the best that can be said for this study is that it might show increased levels of proteins associated with inflammation in the brains of mice who had been injected with aluminum adjuvant way more frequently than human babies ever would be. Whether this has anything to do with autism is highly questionable. At best, what we have here are researchers with little or no expertise in very basic molecular biology techniques using old methodology that isn’t very accurate overinterpreting the differences in gene and protein levels that they found. At worst, what we have are antivaccine “researchers” who are not out for scientific accuracy but who actually want to promote the idea that vaccines cause autism. (I know, I know, it’s hard not to ask: Why not both?) If this were a first offense, I’d give Shaw and Tomljenovic the benefit of the doubt, but this is far from their first offense. Basically, this study adds little or nothing to our understanding of autism or even the potential effects of aluminum adjuvants. It was, as so many studies before, the torture of mice in the name of antivax pseudoscience. The mice used in this study died in vain in a study supported by the profoundly antivaccine Dwoskin Foundation.

Also, I’ll tell my antivax admirer the same thing I once told J.B. Handley when he taunted me to examine a study that he viewed as “slam dunk” evidence for a vaccine-autism link: You don’t tug on Superman’s cape. And, no, your name isn’t Slim. You’re not an exception.

ADDENDUM 9/27/2017: Apparently I wasn’t…Insolent…enough with this paper. On PubPeer there is a big discussion about whether the images in this paper were manipulated and whether the authors self-plagiarized Figure 1 from another paper. It looks bad.

Comments

  1. #1 Chris Hickie
    September 21, 2017

    What is shameful is this “research” gets published at all. Lack of blinding is inexcusable. Reference 41 is cited to show that aluminum from vaccines is found in the brains of mice (https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-99). Reading this reference 41, there is also no mention of blinding in looking at the brain slices of mice who received aluminum versus those who did not (and aluminum deposition was found in both control and aluminum-injected groups). Furthermore they explain away an anomalous finding in the aluminum found in rat brains over time as “was either due to interindividual variations in aluminum handling or to sampling problems related to variable proportions of grey and white matter in the randomly scanned areas (see below)”. Say what?

    Sadly, each one of these poorly done papers (almost always from the same anti-vaccine biased groups) is used to bootstrap the next poorly done paper and even though we know it’s a pile of poop (rather than a staircase to understanding), some parents will be fooled by the growing number of these crappy papers into believing vaccines cause autism.

  2. #2 Andrew W
    London, UK
    September 21, 2017

    I’m slightly confused by this anyway, surely aluminum adjuvants are chosen because they stimulate the immune system at the same time that the antigens in the vaccine are given. Why wouldn’t you see activation of immune system genes when they are supposed to trigger that?

    As for the handwaving in the diagram of “innate immunity -> autism” *sigh*

  3. #3 Internal Medicine Resident
    September 21, 2017

    “Because antivaxers will never let go of their obsession with vaccines as The One True Cause Of All Childhood Health Problems, the explanation for how vaccines supposedly cause all this harm are ever morphing in response to disconfirming evidence.”

    Indeed they are experts at committing the logical fallacy of “moving the goalposts.”

  4. #4 Internal Medicine Resident
    September 21, 2017

    “Because antivaxers will never let go of their obsession with vaccines as The One True Cause Of All Childhood Health Problems, the explanation for how vaccines supposedly cause all this harm are ever morphing in response to disconfirming evidence.”

    Indeed they are “experts” at committing the logical fallacy of “moving the goal-posts.”

  5. #5 Eric Lund
    September 21, 2017

    In the case of Shaw and Tomljenovic’s work, the term “fishing expedition” is better understood in the political rather than the scientific sense of the word. Like the sport fisherman who is looking for a trophy and doesn’t much care whether it’s salmon, swordfish, or sharks with fricking laser beams, Shaw and Tomljenovic are looking for something that they can blame on vaccines, and they don’t much care what it is as long as they find something. That’s like the investigations of President Clinton, which after many years and many millions of dollars came up with an instance where Clinton lied about a consensual extramarital affair.

    I was aware that Shaw and Tomljenovic are affiliated with UBC but didn’t know the detail that they are specifically in the ophthalmology department. I can’t resist observing in this context that there are none so blind as those who will not see.

  6. #6 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    September 21, 2017

    If you going to blame a metal, these eye docs should at least blame the most common metal in the universe and in our bodies.

    Hydrogen is a metal and it makes up a good portion of what we are and is everywhere in the body.

    I say we start a campaign to ban hydrogen from our bodies (I am being just a tad snarky).

  7. #7 Richard
    The Netherlands
    September 21, 2017

    I’d almost suggest a sort of “Three Strike” system for clowns like this: three bad papers, all trying to prove the same thing? One academic title stripped (or some other sanction).
    I recall several people with a real academic background who apparently dedicate their entire career trying to prove the unprovable, e.g. Soffritti with his never-ending crusade against aspartame, and Séralini chasing his GMO/Roundup mirage – and they fail every time (which in fact should be enough of a sanction, but somehow that doesn’t deter them to keep going at it again and again and again…).

  8. #8 sirhchton
    September 21, 2017

    . . . assuring me that antivaxers would be citing it for a long time. . . .

    They got that part right. Don’t antivaxers cite any “study that ever supported their views, no matter how twisted, forever?

  9. #9 sirhchton
    September 21, 2017

    . . . assuring me that antivaxers would be citing it for a long time. . . .

    They got that right. Don’t the antivaxers cite every “study” that supports their views, no matter how twisted, forever?

  10. #10 Michael J. Dochniak
    Minnesota
    September 21, 2017

    Orac writes,

    Basically, this study adds little or nothing to our understanding of autism or even the potential effects of aluminum adjuvants.

    MJD says,

    “Little” or “nothing”, which one is it?

    If the answer is “little”, then, this research could be considered an incremental step towards the etiology of ASD.

    It appears you’ve intentionally given your antivax admirer a reason for hope by using the word “little”, but, at the same time appeased your fan-base with the word “nothing”.

  11. #11 sirhcton
    September 21, 2017

    Sorry for the double (and wrongly typed name) double post. Need more coffee and less cat in lap.

  12. #12 Eric Lund
    September 21, 2017

    Rich@3: As I am sure you and other RI commenters are aware, vaccines contain significant amounts of dihydrogen monoxide. So do malignant tumors. That’s some dangerous stuff!

  13. #13 Lawrence
    September 21, 2017

    “Little” = what happens when you overdose mice on Aluminum…..

  14. #14 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    September 21, 2017

    Besides being a normal conversational gambit, there is actually some things to be learned from this so called study. One: People should perform research within there skill set; I wouldn’t expect Orac to write a paper of positron spin positions, just as I don’t expect eye doctors to do research on autism. This is also a good example of how not to perform and write a research paper.

  15. #15 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    September 21, 2017

    Eric, isn’t that a good reason to ban hydrogen to prevent hydrogen metal poisoning?

  16. #16 LPS
    September 21, 2017

    I read this paper and looked at the figures (in high resolution even) and I have so many questions. Looking at the IFNG mRNA in males (Fig1A) vs. females (Fig2A). Males show increased IFNG transcription in response to Al, but the control females have just as much IFNG mRNA as Al-treated females. So female control female mice just have IFNG expression in their brain vs male mice? In their western blots there is a band in the control mice for pair 2 and in the blots of individual brain regions (Fig 5). They only show 2 bands for the mRNA expression which is misleading if they have that much variation.

    IL-4 and IL-5 aren’t NF-KappaB targets to my knowledge. In fact some studies show that IL-4 suppresses NF-KappaB signaling.

    That Figure 6, IFNG and TNFaren’t chemokines. IL-4 is primarily involved in T and B responses.IL-4 actually makes macrophages/microglia become less inflammatory.

  17. #17 jrkrideau
    At the bottom of the lake (the bottom end, that is)
    September 21, 2017

    # 8 Rich Bly
    isn’t that a good reason to ban hydrogen
    We don’t know’ All the participants just keep floating off like a cloud.

  18. #18 jrkrideau
    At the bottom of the lake (the bottom end, that is)
    September 21, 2017

    @ 2 Eric Lund

    Christopher Shaw, a professor in the department of ophthalmology and visual sciences at UBC. Prof. Shaw, who is chair of the CMSRI’s scientific advisory board, frequently collaborates with Lucija Tomljenovic, a post-doctoral research fellow in the department.

    . Organizations that promote messages about the dangers of vaccines, such as the Children’s Medical Safety Research Institute (CMSRI), have used the results of University of British Columbia research as evidence that vaccines cause autism and other serious harm.

    https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/ubc-stands-behind-vaccine-studies-discredited-by-who/article23302328/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&amp;

    Children’s Medical Safety Research Institute http://www.cmsri.org/

  19. #19 LovleAnjel
    September 21, 2017

    I would like to point out that the diagram from the paper looks like a mouse, except the brain is in its ass. That’s quite the Freudian slip there.

  20. #20 herr doktor bimler
    September 21, 2017

    Organizations that promote messages about the dangers of vaccines, such as the Children’s Medical Safety Research Institute (CMSRI), have used the results of University of British Columbia research as evidence that vaccines cause autism and other serious harm.

    The paper does cite the Dwoskin Foundation for funding. You can see it as the production wing of an integrated marketing operation.

    “Little” = what happens when you overdose mice on Aluminum…..

    Stuart Little was an autistic mouse? NOOOO!!

  21. #21 jrkrideau
    September 21, 2017

    And
    Dr. Mercola Interviews Dr. Tomljenovic About Vaccine Adjuvants

  22. #22 herr doktor bimler
    September 21, 2017

    Reference 41 is cited to show that aluminum from vaccines is found in the brains of mice (https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-99).

    Imagine my surprise to find that the peer reviewers of that earlier work were (a) Christopher Shaw, and (b) Carlo Perricone. The latter is another of the Circle of True Believers, who can be found regularly co-authoring with Shoenfeld & Tomljenovic, or favourably reviewing other papers from the group for Frontiers journals. The level of intellectual inbreeding is such that their brains are growing sixth fingers. Funded yet again by the Dwoskin Foundation.

    It was not clear to me who nominates & selects reviewers in the BMC model.

  23. #23 Narad
    September 21, 2017

    I was aware that Shaw and Tomljenovic are affiliated with UBC but didn’t know the detail that they are specifically in the ophthalmology department.

    He seems to have started to go off the rails around 2010 with a middling publication record beforehand (NB: not all the same Shaw). This item has his affiliation as “University of British Columbia, Departments of Ophthalmology and Medical Science, Experimental Medicine, and Graduate Program in Neuroscience, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.”

  24. #24 Narad
    September 21, 2017

    ^ Dammit: “around 2010

  25. #25 Narad
    September 21, 2017
  26. #26 Narad
    September 21, 2017

    ^ Jesus, I must need more coffee. This, I hope, is the indignant letter to Toxicology that’s in press.

  27. #27 Narad
    September 21, 2017

    No, the SB monkeys have simply f*cked something up.

    doi.org/10.1016/j.tox.2017.09.010

  28. #28 herr doktor bimler
    September 21, 2017

    Children’s Medical Safety Research Institute

    Readers will recall that CMSRI funded Mawson’s internet survey on vaccination sequelae, paid for its abortinve publication in Frontiers, then paid again to have it squeezed out through a pukefunnel from a particularly skeezy mendacious publishing parasite, in order that they could proclaim its results at AutismOne.

    https://lbrbblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/cnn-money.png

  29. #29 herr doktor bimler
    September 21, 2017

    This, I hope, is the indignant letter to Toxicology that’s in press.

    Goodness me, that is some serious whiny-arsed whinging there. The authors’ amour propre has been dissed and needs a ride on the waahmbulance.

  30. #30 Narad
    September 21, 2017

    In related news, Exley is not antivaccine* and was trying to crowdsource £500,000+ to demonstrate that aluminum causes Alzheimer disease.** For CMSRI. And to sell silicon water, or something.

    * hippocraticpost.com/infection-disease/aluminium-adjuvants-vaccines/
    ** futsci.com/project/the-aluminium-alzheimer-s-disease-hypothesis-what-is-the-role-of-aluminium-in-alzheimers-disease

  31. #31 Narad
    September 21, 2017

    ^ The list of backers on that failed attempt contains some familiar names, as well. Gotta love Robert “I have to pay and wait for overbroad FOIA requests?” Krakow.

  32. #32 Orac
    September 21, 2017

    No, the SB monkeys have simply f*cked something up.

    I don’t know what happened, but a whole lot of legitimate comments got flagged not just for moderation, but as spam. They were dumped into the spam folder. It looks like it’s been going on about a day and a half; i.e., since yesterday morning sometime. I’ve released and published all of the non-spam posts that got hung up. I have no idea what happened. All I can do is to try to keep an eye on the spam folder again to make sure no one whose comment gets flagged as spam has to wait too long for his or her comment to publish. That’s all I can do.

  33. #33 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    September 21, 2017

    Orac, you just need everyone to switch to Al free adjuvants in their posts, or is that mouse free?

  34. #34 Jessica
    Florida
    September 21, 2017

    The antivax movement has started making it’s way into the veterinary profession. We had a client that we eventually turned away because she refused to get a rabies vaccine for her dog (her children weren’t vaccinated either). We have many people that only get the rabies vaccine and none of the others. It’s very unfortunate when a puppy (and I rare occasion adult dog) comes in with Parvo (an often times fatal disease) when there’s a vaccine for that.

  35. #35 Chris Hickie
    September 21, 2017

    @ herr doktor bimler #22: AVers have figured out how to bootstrap their bullsh*t. It’s a flimsy house of cards but all they have to do is scare a few percent of parents out of vaccinating and then they have the vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks they so badly crave as proofz that vaccines don’t work.

    Despicable.

  36. #36 herr doktor bimler
    September 21, 2017

    People should perform research within there skill set; I wouldn’t expect Orac to write a paper of positron spin positions, just as I don’t expect eye doctors to do research on autism.

    I am not going to demand strict demarcation of specialities. But if I wrote a paper on immune responses and autism, I probably wouldn’t sent it to “Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry”, unless I wanted to avoid referees with expertise in autism or immunology or neurology.

  37. #37 Dorit Reiss
    September 21, 2017

    Does anyone know what Dr. Tomljenovic is doing these days? A google search places her at British Colombia, but she doesn’t have tenure, unlike Prof. Shaw, does she?

  38. #38 TBruce
    September 22, 2017

    @Dorit Reiss:
    The UBC Faculty as of 2017-2018 still lists Tomljenovic as a postdoc. From what I can tell she started at UBC as a postdoc in 2011. Seems to me like a long time to be stuck there , however the Dwoskin and CMSRI money continues to flow.
    As a UBC medical alumnus, I hang my head in shame.

  39. #39 Slugdoc
    United States
    September 22, 2017

    Jessica @34
    I was a vet tech for 6 years, the last 18 months of which I was in emergency medicine. Parvo is a horrific disease, capable of killing even the healthiest of pups. The idea of people not vaccinating their dogs infuriates me to no end. If not vaccinating your kids is abuse, not vaccinating your dogs is just as abusive. What is worse is that kids are covered by their parents insurance (if they have it). Pets less frequently are covered.

  40. #40 Kathy
    September 22, 2017

    Vaccines are not just “The One True Cause Of All Childhood Health Problems” to antivaxers. They are the only cause of all health problems. Before vaccines, all humans needed was clean water and clean food. Not vaccines. Vaccines are the cause of all the world’s evils, in the mind of the antivaxer. Even the unvaxed are doomed because one’s mother’s vaccines will affects one’s health. Now, if you are misfortunate enough to have ill effects from vaccines sometime in your recent multigenerational past, all you need to do is take $987 worth of supplements daily and $1000 in organic food daily. Of course, you also need the water filtration system and the air purifier and the tanning bed. Also, David Avocado Wolfe has some pillow covers to sell you.

    (tongue in cheek)

  41. #41 FireDragon
    Australia
    September 22, 2017

    @ chris hickie “Bootstrap their bullsh*t” Is that one of yours? Hilarious. Here in Australia at least our Health Minister calls out antivaxers and antivax Doctors. One even got his licence suspended or revoked – i forget – aww poor anitvaxer. Orac and his SBM colleagues do a great job. Never stop.

  42. #42 JDK
    September 22, 2017

    @ jkrideau – good article in the Globe there, i particularly like the equating of anti-vaccine to an ‘ethnic or racial slur’ by our aggrieved professor of aluminum and eyeballs. As another prof in the interview says there is academic freedom but there is also academic responsibility. Not a lot of responsibility in these two but delusions are powerful things.

  43. #43 Docosc
    September 22, 2017

    Kathy (#40) beat me to it. I was going to cite the “multigenerational effects” of vaccines, since only vaccines could possibly cause health problems, if your unvax’d kid has something, it must be due to your vaccine history (or your mom’s, I don’t know how far back it goes!)

  44. #44 Docosc
    September 22, 2017

    On the subject of mouse studies, though. I frequently cite this one:
    Neurotoxicology. 2008 Jan;29(1):160-9. Epub 2007 Nov 1. Links
    Neonatal exposure to perfluorooctane sulfonate (PFOS) and perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA) causes neurobehavioural defects in adult mice.
    Johansson N, Fredriksson A, Eriksson P.

    Authors do not claim autism per se, but note behavioral changes. In my house we use cast iron. Never see the antivaxxers using it, though. Of course, it does not implicate vaccines, so can not possibly be relevant to their obsession.

  45. #45 NWO Reporter
    September 22, 2017

    The “one true cause”? LOL. Clever use of hyperbole. I sure hope people know better than to rely on blogs like this to tell them what the arguments against vaccines are and why they are wrong. It’s as reliable as listening to only one side of a debate, and trusting them to tell you honestly why they won. 😀

  46. #46 Docosc
    September 22, 2017

    OK, I was not too offended by my comments vanishing into the aether, but NWO gets posted and mine don’t? Now I am sad.

  47. #47 Internal Medicine Resident
    September 22, 2017

    @ #43
    From reading articles and comments posted by anti-vaxxers themselves, it’s not that much of an exaggeration/hyperbole to summarize their arguments as such.

  48. #48 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    September 22, 2017

    NWOR –

    Here’s a list of conditions that anti-vexers have claimed are caused by vaccines.

    Is there anything on this list that you are willing to say ‘No, vaccines do not cause that’.

    Acute flaccid paralysis
    ADD
    ADEM
    AIDS
    Allergies
    ALS (Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis)
    Alzheimer’s
    Anaphylaxis
    Antiphospholipid syndrome (APS)
    Aplastic anemia
    Apnea
    Appetite, anorexia
    Arthritis
    Asthma
    Autism
    Autoimmune diseases
    Bell’s Palsy
    Birth defects
    Blood Reactions
    Bowel disease
    Brain damage
    Brain Swelling
    BSE risk
    Bullous pemphigoid
    Cancer
    Cerebral Palsy
    CFIDS/ME
    Chronic inflammatory
    CIC (Klinkers)
    CJD risk
    Coeliac Disease
    Convulsions
    Criminality
    Crohn’s Disease
    Cysts
    Death
    Deep vein thrombosis (DVT)
    Demyelination
    Demylenating Polyneuropathy (CIDP).
    Depression
    Dermatomyositis
    Development disability
    Diabetes
    Down’s syndrome
    Dravet Syndrome
    Dyslexia
    Dystonia
    Ear infections (Otitis Media)
    Eczema
    Encephalitis, Encephalopathy
    Encephalomyelitis
    Epilepsy
    Erysipelas
    Erythema multiforme
    Eye damage
    Fanconi’s anemia
    Feline sarcomas
    Fever
    Fibromyalgia
    Foetal damage & death
    Foot and mouth disease
    Gait disturbances
    Gangrene
    Gastroenteritis
    Glomerulonephritis
    Graves’ disease
    Guillain-Barre syndrome
    Gulf War Syndrome
    Hair loss
    Headache
    Hearing loss
    Heart damage
    Heller’s syndrome
    Hemolytic anemia
    Henoch-Schoenlein Purpura
    Hepatitis
    Hughes syndrome and antiphospholipid syndrome (APS)
    Hyperkinetic syndrome
    Immune Suppression
    Infections
    Infertility
    Inflammatory bowel disease
    Intussusception
    Kawasaki Syndrome
    Kidney disorders
    Lennox-gastaut syndrome
    Leprosy
    Leukemia & lymphoma
    Lichen planus
    Liver disorders
    Lou Gehrig’s disease
    Lung, breathing issues
    Lupus
    Lycanthropy
    Lyell’s syndrome
    Lyme disease
    Lymphoma
    Macrophagic myofasciitis (MMF)
    Meningitis
    Meningoencephalitis
    Menopause
    Miscarriage
    Mitichondrial Disorder
    MS
    Mumps
    Myasthenia gravis
    Myocarditis
    Narcolepsy
    Nervous system damage
    Neurological
    Obesity
    Optic Neuritis
    Orchitis
    Osteoporosis
    Otitis Media
    Pancreatitis
    Pancytopenia
    Panic Attacks
    Panniculitis
    Parkinsonism
    Peanut Allergy
    Pericarditis
    Pneumonia
    Polio
    POTS
    Premature ovarian failure (POF)/premature menopause
    Psoriasis
    Renal
    Respiratory
    RSV
    Sarcomas (feline)
    Scleroderma
    Scoliosis
    Seizures
    Serum Sickness
    Shaken Baby Syndrome
    Shingles
    SIDS
    Sinusitis
    Skin disorders
    Smallpox
    Spanish Flu
    SSPE
    Sterilization
    Stevens-Johnson syndrome
    Sudden death
    Suicide
    Syphilis
    TB
    Tetanus
    Thrombocytopenia purpura
    Tics
    Tonsillitis
    Tourette’s Syndrome
    Transverse myelitis
    Typhoid
    Uveitis
    Vaccinia
    Vasculitis
    Vasculomyelinopathy
    Violent Behaviour
    Whooping cough

  49. #49 Denice Walter
    September 22, 2017

    In other anti-vax news/ torturing…

    I’ve been hearing about a new documentary about AJW which is advertised as though it were ‘balanced’ ( famous last word I know)- my initial reaction seems to be realistic:
    it is most likely pure Andy worship again.

    There’s an article by GInger Taylor @ AoA as well as one at briandeer.com about Miranda Bailey, the film maker.

    Guess which one makes sense.

  50. #50 Narad
    September 22, 2017

    From what I can tell she started at UBC as a postdoc in 2011. Seems to me like a long time to be stuck there , however the Dwoskin and CMSRI money continues to flow.

    She did a stint midway with Shoenfeld, as I recall.

  51. #51 Narad
    September 22, 2017

    No, the SB monkeys have simply f*cked something up.

    I don’t know what happened, but a whole lot of legitimate comments got flagged not just for moderation, but as spam.

    I was referring to the prepending of the page URL that was breaking embedded links.

  52. #52 Orac
    September 22, 2017

    There’s some interesting comments on FB about this study. In one comment thread, for instance, suspicions have been raised that one of the blots was altered. There is also discussion of how the authors didn’t look at IκB, which is key to what is known as the canonical NFκB pathway. I’m kicking myself for not having noticed that, given that I had an R01 from 2005-2010 in which NFκB was a major part. https://www.facebook.com/dorit.reiss/posts/10214563162377668?comment_id=10214563959997608&reply_comment_id=10214569075445491&notif_t=feed_comment&notif_id=1506106261764413

  53. #53 Narad
    September 22, 2017

    Here’s a list of conditions that anti-vexers have claimed are caused by vaccines.

    Seems to be missing drug addiction, which is touted by one Benedetta over a AoA, IIRC.

  54. #54 Narad
    September 22, 2017

    ^ “over at

  55. #55 NWO Reporter
    September 22, 2017

    Johnny — interesting list. If nothing else, it’s bound to prompt some curiosity in the “vaccine hesitant” that will get them looking around for more information. That is, assuming they don’t consider your sneering contempt to be evidence of anything. 😉

  56. #56 herr doktor bimler
    September 22, 2017

    There’s some interesting comments on FB about this study. In one comment thread, for instance, suspicions have been raised that one of the blots was altered.

    That came up at Pubpeer as well, though the “evidence” for a spliced / deleted band on one of the blots looks like jpg-compression artefacts to me.
    I can’t see the motivation for the authors to delete a band. As it is, the Figure shows TNF levels varying wildly among the Control animals (all the way down to 0)… implying that it has no biological significance. It’s hard to image what a band could show that would be worse than that, and make it worth deleting.

  57. #57 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    September 22, 2017

    Hey, I’m trying to build bridges here. I struggle to find the “sneering contempt” you mentioned. My post was simple, and had a simple request – here’s a list, what doesn’t belong.

    If we can agree that there are just some things vaccines don’t cause, maybe, just maybe, we can put an end to the idea that vaccines cause all problems, and then work to come to an agreement on the problems that vaccines do cause.

    Surly there are things on the list that make you say ‘No, there is no evidence that vaccines cause XXXX, YYYY, and ZZZZ , and anyone who believes otherwise is a silly person’. But if you insist that everything on the list might because by vaccines, then I think we would have to agree that Kathy is right after all.

    As far as Narad’s suggestion that my list is incomplete, I freely admit that it’s possible, and in fact I admit it’s likely, but I’m not interested in moving the goal posts. But if you want to start with drug addiction, well, it would be a start.

  58. #58 herr doktor bimler
    September 22, 2017

    Reference 41 is cited

    Ref. 116 omits the minor detail of journal and year:

    [116] E.B. Mukaetova-Ladinska, J. Westwood, E.K. Perry

    Are there no copy-editors at Elsevier any more??? [/rhetorical question]

    Another self-citation of interest is

    [166] C.A. Shaw, S. Sheth, D. Li, L. Tomljenovic, OA Autism 2 (2014) 11

    “OA Autism” being a predatory journal from the publisher “OA Publishing London”. Neuroskeptic delved into the skeezy grifters behind it, a few years ago:
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2014/08/25/strange-rise-fall-medical-journal/#.VOJkZC7VElIc

    The publisher subsequently went t-u:
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2015/03/11/when-publisher-stops-publishing/#.WcWzR8Zx1tS

    So I am grateful to Shaw et al. for reminding me of the whole entertaining episode.

  59. #59 Tim
    September 22, 2017

    don’t know what happened, but a whole lot of legitimate comments got flagged not just for moderation, but as spam..
    Could some person relate this fact of checking the spam filter to Greg Laden? He’s not been receiving comments for a few days now — http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2017/09/19/hurricane-maria/

    http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2017/09/19/hurricane-maria/#respond

    I guess, they are all in the spam folder…. pass it on.

  60. #60 NWO Reporter
    September 22, 2017

    Johnny, why don’t you start by telling us which of the conditions on the list you posted you believe CAN be caused by vaccines.

  61. #61 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    September 23, 2017

    That wouldn’t prove anything.

    To recap –

    Kathy said “Vaccines are not just “The One True Cause Of All Childhood Health Problems” to antivaxers. They are the only cause of all health problems.”

    You laughed out loud at the idea (or so you claimed).

    I give you a list of conditions that anti-vaxxers have blamed on vaccines, and ask if there are any that you don’t believe are caused by vaccines, and you refuse to name any.

    I can only conclude that you think it’s a reasonable list. I just don’t understand why you’re embarrassed to say so.

  62. #62 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    Johnny said: “Hey, I’m trying to build bridges here.” So start building. The obvious place to start is to ascertain the extent to which you disagree with the list you posted. So tell us which of the items on your list you agree can be caused by vaccines.

  63. #63 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    BTW, Johnny, your list had nothing to do a “one true cause.” It was a list of conditions that some people allege CAN be caused by vaccines. I accepted for the sake of discussion that some people do, in fact, allege it. But presumably no one has ever alleged that vaccines are the “one true cause” of death, for example, which was one condition on your list.

  64. #64 Politicalguineapig
    September 23, 2017

    I know I had a comment here. I think the spam filters acting u again.

  65. #65 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    September 23, 2017

    I accepted for the sake of discussion that some people do, in fact, allege it.

    Like you, it seems. A fair interpretation of this thread is that you believe that vaccines can cause all the conditions on that list. They truly are the wonder drug that work wonders.

    You’ve made Kathy’s point quite nicely.

  66. #66 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    Wow, Johnny, you’re really doing somersaults to avoid telling us which conditions on your list you agree can be caused by vaccines. It’s no mystery why. You have two choices here: to claim vaccines have no risks, which would destroy whatever credibility you might have; or publish a list of vaccine injuries that actually do happen. Which will be? Or will you move on to back flips? 😀

  67. #67 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    September 23, 2017

    Vaccines do have side effects. Here’s a good list, broken down by vaccine type.

    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

    Now answer the question – is there any disease or condition that vaccines don’t cause?

  68. #68 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    Johnny, go ahead and post a clean list of the vaccine injuries here, like you did for your first list. And if you want me to comment on your first list, post links to the sources you got them from (like you did for vaccine injuries acknowledged by the CDC) and I’ll take a look. 🙂

  69. #69 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    September 23, 2017

    Why should I do that? So you can move the bar again?

    You’ve made your position, and intentions quite clear.

  70. #70 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    September 23, 2017

    You even said “I accepted for the sake of discussion that some people do, in fact, allege it”, and now I have to give citations that people have made the allegations.

  71. #71 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    Here, Johnny–I made a clean list of the vaccine injuries acknowledged by the CDC for you. Interestingly, they don’t even include all the injuries that have been compensated in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. See how many bridges we’ve already built? Don’t bother with the links if you don’t want to–you’d only post the weakest links anyway.

    Serious allergic reaction
    Death
    Permanent brain damage.
    Long-term seizures
    Coma
    Lowered consciousness
    Guillain-Barré Syndrome
    Deafness
    Pneumonia
    Inflammation of the stomach or intestines
    Intussusception (a type of bowel blockage)
    Swelling, severe pain and/or bleeding in the arm
    Severe long-lasting shoulder pain/difficulty moving the arm
    Severe nervous system reaction
    Nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, stomach ache
    Seizure (jerking or staring)
    Non-stop crying, for 3 hours or more
    High fever, over 105°F
    Fainting
    Blood in the urine or stool

  72. #72 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    Johnny, we can add to our points of agreement the following acknowledged vaccine injuries listed on the Vaccine Injury Compensation Table that weren’t already on the list of CDC acknowledged vaccine injuries I posted above. Interestingly, I’m getting a “page not found” error on this table now. Fortunately, I was able to find it on the WayBackMachine, dated 9-10-2017. 🙂

    Anaphylaxis
    Brachial Neuritis
    Vasovagal syncope
    Encephalopathy or encephalitis
    Chronic arthritis
    Thrombocytopenic purpura
    Vaccine Strain Measles Viral Disease
    Paralytic Polio
    Vaccine Strain Polio Viral Infection
    Shoulder Injury Related to Vaccine Administration
    Disseminated varicella vaccine strain viral disease
    Varicella vaccine strain viral reactivation

  73. #73 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    Of course, the injuries that have been compensated in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program are not limited to the injuries listed on the table. Maybe you can look up the rest of them for us, Johnny., so we can build more bridges. 🙂

  74. #74 Chris
    September 23, 2017

    Now NWOR, provide the PubMed indexed studies that show those vaccine side effects occur more often than they occur with the actual diseases.

    Also, do provide at least the PubMed indexed case report of the paralytic polio happening with the IPV. Because the OPV has not been used in years.

  75. #75 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    Chris, are you saying you disagree with the CDC’s list of acknowledged vaccine injuries, and/or the acknowledged vaccine injuries listed in the HRSA’s Vaccine Injury Compensation Table? If so, it seems it is you who should have the burden of proving they’re wrong. What vaccine injuries do you acknowledge occur? Let’s help Johnny build bridges. 🙂

  76. #76 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    BTW, Chris, according to polioeradication dot org: “Oral poliovirus vaccines (OPV) are the predominant vaccine used in the fight to eradicate polio.” Are you saying the OPV isn’t used in the industrialized world, so the injuries don’t matter?

  77. #77 Chris
    September 23, 2017

    I disagree because you did not link to the documents. Plus the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is not part of the CDC, but with Health Resources and Services Administration.

    Do you really thing the compensated claims are proof that the vaccines cause more harm than the diseases? You must have some kind of reading comprehension issue. So lets see how well you are at basic math word problems.

    Check out their statistics:
    https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/hrsa/vaccinecompensation/data/monthly-website-stats-09-05-17.pdf

    Now go to the bottom of the first table to the row that says “Grand Total.” The data first column is the total number of vaccines given in the stated time period (2,845,946,816 total vaccines). Now run your finger over to the number to the total compensated claims (2,976 claims). Now divide the first by the second number.

    What is that number? What does it mean?

    Also, go look at the compensated claims, tell us how many are under the “Settlement” column. What does that mean? Here is a hint: the second page of this pdf file has a section titled “Definitions.” Learn how to use it.

  78. #78 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    Chris, did you get enough sleep last night? Johnny linked to the CDC’s list of acknowledged vaccine injuries. And all you have to do to find the HRSA’s Vaccine Injury Compensation Table is to search that term in any search engine, retrieve the link showing “page not found,” and look it up on the WayBackMachine. It was just taken down, so the link still shows up on search engines.

  79. #79 Narad
    September 23, 2017

    I made a clean list of the vaccine injuries acknowledged by the CDC

    Uh-huh.

    Blood in the urine or stool

    This, for example, is under adenovirus. Let’s read:

    “More serious problems have been reported by about 1 person in 100, within 6 months of vaccination. These problems included:

    blood in the urine or stool
    pneumonia
    inflammation of the stomach or intestines

    “It is not clear whether these mild or serious problems were caused by the vaccine or occurred after vaccination by chance.”

    I’m amazed that teh NWAD managed to squeeze out a comment without a fυcking brain-dead emoticon, though. Perhaps a case of wake ‘n’ bake.

  80. #80 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    And BTW, Chris, this discussion is not about the frequency of vaccine injuries–it’s about reaching some agreement about which vaccine injuries actually occur. Johnny’s trying to build bridges here, and all you’re doing it interfering.

  81. #81 Narad
    September 23, 2017

    And all you have to do to find the HRSA’s Vaccine Injury Compensation Table is to search that term in any search engine, retrieve the link showing “page not found,” and look it up on the WayBackMachine.

    Sweet Fυcking Christ, are you stupid. Did you ever try just searching for “vaccine injury table” and looking at one of the many fυcking links that work, such as this one? Do you remember how to read this sort of material, or has your lawyer brain-rot reached an advanced stage thanks to the expanding Earth?

  82. #82 Chris
    September 23, 2017

    So, NWOR, you really do not know how to do simple math word problems, even when the numbers are given to you.

    And all I am trying to do is to get you to answer what is actually on that CDC link: the relative risk. So, tell us why you refuse to answer by just cut and pasting from the page that says for influenza (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#flu): “There may be a small increased risk of Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) after inactivated flu vaccine. This risk has been estimated at 1 or 2 additional cases per million people vaccinated. This is much lower than the risk of severe complications from flu, which can be prevented by flu vaccine.”

    You list GBS like it is common after the flu vaccine. But it is clearly not, and it actually more likely to happen from actually getting flu.

    So you are either lying by omission, did not even read past the first page of that link give by Johnny, or just do not know how to read.

  83. #83 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    Narad, I really try to ignore you because I don’t like picking on people who seem to be “special.” But special or not, you are one of the rudest little twits to ever grace this page.

  84. #84 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    Chris, I guess we agree on one thing: the CDC is not a reliable source of information about vaccine risks. 🙂

  85. #85 Chris
    September 23, 2017

    So NWOR, where is the side effect of “paralytic polio” on the link provided by Johnny:
    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#polio

    By the way, here is the injury compensation table at the actual HRSA site:
    https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/vaccinecompensation/pre03202017-vaccineinjurytable.pdf

    Note that the only polio vaccine that it lists paralytic polio is OPV… and that is why it is not used in the USA anymore!

    Did you even notice on that page that you had so much difficulty finding… that there were specific time conditions? No, of course not. You can’t seem to figure out how to read table.

  86. #86 Chris
    September 23, 2017

    NWO Troll: “Chris, I guess we agree on one thing: the CDC is not a reliable source of information about vaccine risks.”

    Wrong, wrong, wrongety wrong. You misrepresented the risks, and did not link directly to your sources. When you were shown what you got was wrong, wrong, wrongety wrong… you claim the CDC is not reliable.

    Again, you make stuff up and get upset that your “brilliant” interpretation turns out to be regurgitated bovine manure. Gah! You can’t even find a calculator to do my little math story problem, because you cannot honestly answer with the actual results.

  87. #87 Narad
    September 23, 2017

    Narad, I really try to ignore you because I don’t like picking on people who seem to be “special.”

    I’d love to see you give it a try, Ginny.

    But special or not, you are one of the rudest little twits to ever grace this page.

    You don’t even inspire me, Johnnycakes. Simply observing that you’re completely brain-dead requires very little creativity. You should have tried to become a Dreamlander rather than going to law school.

  88. #88 Chris
    September 23, 2017

    NWO Troll: “But special or not, you are one of the rudest little twits to ever grace this page.”

    Obviously “rudeness” is asking you questions that expose you as a liar. Especially the bit about pointing out you were literally cherry picking the CDC vaccine side effect page and the NVICP injury table… or more likely, not reading/understanding them.

  89. #89 NWO Reporter
    September 23, 2017

    Chis, you are such a liar. I misrepresented NOTHING–I quoted the vaccine injuries listed on the CDC’s list of acknowledge vaccine injuries, and on the HRSA’s Vaccine Injury Table VERBATIM. Dance around it all you want, but stop lying.

  90. #90 Narad
    September 23, 2017

    I quoted the vaccine injuries listed on the CDC’s list of acknowledge vaccine injuries, and on the HRSA’s Vaccine Injury Table VERBATIM

    “It is not clear whether these mild or serious problems were caused by the vaccine or occurred after vaccination by chance.”

    Are you unclear on the basic concept, 00795670?

  91. #91 Chris
    September 23, 2017

    Um, sure. Whatever you say, NWO Troll. I actually posted the link and the verbiage that you ignored. You actually posted words without context, which is form of misrepresentation. News flash: no one under the age of of seventeen is going to file for paralytic polio at the NVICP since it was removed from the American schedule in 2000.

    So how are you doing with that little math word problem I gave you? Have you figured out that almost every device that can access the internet has a calculator? Do you know how to do fourth grade division problems?

  92. #92 Dangerous Bacon
    September 24, 2017

    NWO: “I guess we agree on one thing: the CDC is not a reliable source of information about vaccine risks.”
    NWO: “I quoted the vaccine injuries listed on the CDC’s list of acknowledge vaccine injuries”

    Why do you quote sources that (according to you) are unreliable?

  93. #93 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    September 24, 2017

    In the interest of Credit where credit is due –

    The list I posted at #48 is from Craig Egan. He developed the list, and took it to the Vaxxed bus, and issued the same simple challange I issued to NWOR, with the same results.

    Anti-vaxers will not admit that there is a disease or condition that vaccines cannot cause, including Lycanthropy.

  94. #94 NWO Reporter
    September 24, 2017

    Hey, “Let’s build bridges” Johnny is back! Here’s a list of possible vaccine injuries from the CDC link you provided, and from the Vaccine Injury Compensation Table. Other types of vaccine injuries have been compensated in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, but it’s a start. Which of them do you agree can be caused by vaccines? Let’s match them up to your list of vaccine injuries alleged by those crazy anti-vaxxers, and build some bridges. 🙂

    Anaphylaxis
    Blood in the urine or stool
    Brachial Neuritis
    Coma
    Chronic arthritis
    Death
    Deafness
    Disseminated varicella vaccine strain viral disease
    Encephalopathy or encephalitis
    Fainting
    Guillain-Barré Syndrome
    High fever, over 105°F
    Inflammation of the stomach or intestines
    Intussusception (a type of bowel blockage)
    Long-term seizures
    Lowered consciousness
    Nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, stomach ache
    Non-stop crying, for 3 hours or more
    Paralytic Polio
    Permanent brain damage.
    Pneumonia
    Seizure (jerking or staring)
    Serious allergic reaction
    Severe long-lasting shoulder pain/difficulty moving the arm
    Severe nervous system reaction
    Shoulder Injury Related to Vaccine Administration
    Swelling, severe pain and/or bleeding in the arm where the shot was given
    Thrombocytopenic purpura
    Vasovagal syncope
    Vaccine Strain Measles Viral Disease
    Vaccine Strain Polio Viral Infection
    Varicella vaccine strain viral reactivation

  95. #95 Lawrence
    September 24, 2017

    Only if you’d be willing to accept the rate by which those severe adverse reactions have been confirmed.

  96. #96 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    September 24, 2017

    Give it up, Ginny. You lost.

  97. #97 NWO Reporter
    September 24, 2017

    Lawrence, Johnny did not list any rates by which those alleged vaccine injuries occurred on his list. I’m trying to create an equivalent list to help Johnny build bridges, so let’s stick to the issue presented.

  98. #98 Lawrence
    September 24, 2017

    About 1 in 1 million or less.

  99. #99 NWO Reporter
    September 24, 2017

    Good news, Johnny! I’ve revised my list to include *some* of the non-table injuries that have been compensated in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. They sure don’t make those easy to look up, so the list is still not complete. It includes: Possible vaccine injuries from the CDC link you provided; injuries listed on the Vaccine Injury Table; and some of the other vaccine injuries that have been compensated in the VICP. I can already see we’re closer than ever to building those bridges you wanted to build. 🙂

    Acute Inflammatory Neurological Injury
    Acute Demyelinating Encephalomyelitis (ADEM)
    Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis
    Acute Hemorrhagic Leukoencephalomyelitis (AHLE)
    Anaphylaxis
    Bell’s Palsy
    Blood in the urine or stool
    Brachial Neuritis
    Brachial Plexopathy
    Cardiac arrest
    Cellulitis
    Cerebral Palsy
    Cognitive Delays
    Coma
    Connective Tissue Disease
    Chronic arthritis
    Complex Regional Pain Syndrome
    Death
    Deafness
    Demyelinating Polyneuropathy
    Disseminated varicella vaccine strain viral disease
    Encephalopathy or encephalitis
    Fainting
    Frozen Shoulder Syndrome
    Guillain-Barré Syndrome
    Hearing Loss
    High fever, over 105°F
    Inflammation of the stomach or intestines
    Inflammatory Tendinitis
    Intussusception (a type of bowel blockage)
    Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis
    Kleine-Levin Syndrome
    Leukocytoclastic Vasculitis
    Long-term seizures
    Lowered consciousness
    Lumbosacral Raduculoplexus Neuropathy (LSRPN)
    Lymphangitis
    Miller Fisher Syndrome
    Multiple Sclerosis
    Multi-Organ Failure
    Myelopathy
    Myositis
    Nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, stomach ache
    Neuritis
    Neuralgic Amyotrophy
    Neurologic Injuries
    Neuromyelitis Optica (NMO)
    Non-stop crying, for 3 hours or more
    Optic Neuritis
    Overactive Immune Response
    Paralytic Polio
    Paresthesias/Small Fiber Neuropathy
    Parsonage Turner Syndrome
    Peripheral Neuropathy
    Permanent brain damage.
    Pneumonia
    Polyneuropathy
    Psoriasiform Dermatitis
    Radial Nerve Injury
    Seizure (jerking or staring)
    Serious allergic reaction
    Severe long-lasting shoulder pain/difficulty moving the arm
    Severe nervous system reaction
    Shoulder Injury Related to Vaccine Administration
    Spinal Cord Myelitis
    Strep A infection
    Swelling, severe pain and/or bleeding in the arm where the shot was given
    Systemic Inflammatory Response
    Thrombocytopenic purpura
    Tinnitus
    Toxic Shock
    Transverse Myelitis
    Vasovagal syncope
    Vaccine Strain Measles Viral Disease
    Vaccine Strain Polio Viral Infection
    Varicella vaccine strain viral reactivation
    Ventricular Fibrillation
    Vision Loss

  100. #100 Dangerous Bacon
    September 24, 2017

    The vaccine court has compensated BILLIONS of dollars for “vasovagal syncope” and “fainting” alone.

    Stop the madness!

  101. #101 Chris
    September 24, 2017

    NWO Troll: “Paralytic Polio”

    Lather, rinse, repeat. So what vaccine is that listed for, and is it on the present American pediatric schedule.

    NWO Troll continues to whine: “ohnny did not list any rates by which those alleged vaccine injuries occurred on his list.”

    Except they were clearly noted on that CDC page he linked to. You just have to actually read the words with a modicum of comprehension.

    So, how are you doing with that little math story problem I gave you about the NVICP compensated claims versus total number of vaccines given? Did you forget all math you learned since third grade?

  102. #102 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    September 24, 2017

    The list I posted over 50 comments ago, 18 by Ginny, wasn’t about rates. The question was ‘is there anything on this list that vaccines don’t cause?’.

    So far, Ginny hasn’t listed a single thing, even the really easy one on the list.

    I believe our non-USAian friends call that an ‘own goal’.

  103. #103 NWO Reporter
    September 24, 2017

    Johnny, I see you are moving on to back flips to avoid answering the question you raised yourself. That is, the extent to which you agree or disagree with the list of vaccine injuries you posted. Yet you demand I answer the question you will not, while claiming to be “trying to build bridges.” It’s clear that many of the items on your list are vaccine injuries that have actually been compensated in the Vaccine Injury Compensation System. Yet still, you refuse to answer your own question. You’re quite a deceiver, although fortunately, not very good at it.

  104. #104 Chris
    September 24, 2017

    NWO Troll: “That is, the extent to which you agree or disagree with the list of vaccine injuries you posted.”

    Changing the question to what you want it to be, is not answering his question. It is a diversion, which is a form of lying. It is you being a deceiver.

    Though quite an incompetent one, since the pertinent information has been given to you multiple times. But either you just choose to ignore the links and direct quotes, or you just do not understand how to read them.

    “It’s clear that many of the items on your list are vaccine injuries that have actually been compensated in the Vaccine Injury Compensation System.”

    So what? You keep saying that like it holds some form of scientific weight, it does not. It is obvious that you do not understand the definition of the word “settlement” when it comes to the NVICP, nor do you understand the significance of the ratio between the compensated claims and total number of given vaccines.

    So have you figured out how to use a calculator to get that ratio?

  105. #105 NWO Reporter
    September 24, 2017

    Chris, there’s no need to reiterate your point over and over. I get it: the oral polio vaccine is given to children around the world, but it isn’t given to children in the US anymore, and therefore, the injuries it can cause are irrelevant. Don’t blame me if it’s still on the Vaccine Injury Table–take it up with the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program if it outrages you so much.

  106. #106 NWO Reporter
    September 24, 2017

    Chris, if you’re going to fight Johnny’s battles for him, just answer the question Johnny raised but won’t answer himself. Identify the injuries on the list that you agree vaccines can actually cause; or state that you believe vaccines can’t cause any injuries. It’s not complicated.

  107. #107 Narad
    September 24, 2017

    The sad part is that Teh NWAD isn’t even a real antivaxxer; she’s just some freakish hit-and-run, amateur crank who managed to get a nod from Mr. “CDC Whistleblower has been removed from the CDC premises by security” Rappoport.

  108. #108 Narad
    September 24, 2017

    Good news, Johnny! I’ve revised my list to include *some* of the non-table injuries that have been compensated in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. They sure don’t make those easy to look up, so the list is still not complete.

    Oh, dear, Gindo, you looked something up from “them” but didn’t bother with the simple issue of case names and numbers? Is this how you draft memoranda, too?

  109. #109 Politicalguineapig
    September 24, 2017

    NWO: Do you agree that drug addiction, ADD and allergies are also vaccine injuries? Also, would you like to explain why most people who claim to have vaccine injured children seem to have issues with reality and generally dislike their children? At this point, anti-vax seems a lot like a coverup for actively hating one’s children. Or maybe it’s just kids in general that they dislike.

  110. #110 Chris
    September 24, 2017

    NWO Troll: ” I get it: the oral polio vaccine is given to children around the world, but it isn’t given to children in the US anymore,”

    And your evidence for this is? Or are you just making assumptions. Anyway, you are using an American program with only American cases. Don’t change the subject.

    So what if it is still on the table. Only an idiot would not evaluate that table as noted historical data to encompass all of the NVICP statistics.

    Now where are those answers to my little math story subject.

  111. #111 NWO Reporter
    September 24, 2017

    PGPig, people who turn on their allies if they cease to be useful are a particular kind of creepy. Everyone with a vaccine injured child was once pro-vaccine–that’s why their child was vaccinated. The kind of parents you would be fawning over in your online comments, praising them for being responsible and caring parents because they vaccinate their child. Then their child is injured by a vaccine and you turn on them, accusing them of disliking or even hating their own children. You really are repugnant.

  112. #112 NWO Reporter
    September 24, 2017

    Chris, according to the CDC’s page entitled Polio Vaccination: “OPV has not been used in the United States since 2000 but is still used in many parts of the world.” Is the CDC lying again, or are you lying again, or do you just not know what you’re talking about again?

    According to the Polio Global Eradication Initiative: “Oral poliovirus vaccines (OPV) are the predominant vaccine used in the fight to eradicate polio.” Waddayaknow–sounds like the CDC wasn’t lying.

  113. #113 Narad
    September 24, 2017

    How many “vaccine injured” children do you have again, Gindo? I’m just trying to calibrate some sort of creepiness scale here, now that you’ve thoughtlessly invoked one.

  114. #114 Politicalguineapig
    September 24, 2017

    NWO: Nope, I just call them as I see them. Most anti-vax people have a shaky enough relationship with the truth that it is doubtful whether they had their kids vaccinated in the first place, and a number of them have turned around and blamed their PARENTs for their kid’s problems. Which suggests that they have the problem. I got no time for the problems of queen bee meanies and their drones. They need to grow up and leave high school. (You too. Speaking of creepy, if you’re a ‘grandmother’ why do you act like a high school sophomore on a sugar bender?)

    As for the few parents that I know, including one of my sibs, my influence isn’t that great, but I do try to be responsible for myself. I got my DTAP and will likely be getting my flu vaccine this year, because an adult should care about the kids in their life, even if they aren’t the parents of those kids.

  115. #115 Chris
    September 24, 2017

    NWO Troll,

    What parts of the world? And why do you care about them?
    Perhaps you should do your pearl clutching at the World Health Organization, and not here.

    Though here you should provide the answers to my simple math story problem based on that table of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. What is the ratio of total number of given vaccines versus compensated claims? What is the definition of the legal word “settlement”? What does it mean about the safely of vaccines?

    These are questions you seem to not to be able to answer. Explain why.

  116. #116 NWO Reporter
    September 24, 2017

    Chris, in order for your simple math problem to yield any potentially useful information, we would need to know what percentage of vaccine injuries actually result in a claim being filed in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Given that the number of vaccine injuries even reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System is at most 10%, and at the least less than 1%, I assume the percentage of vaccine injury claims filed in the VICP is considerably less.

  117. #117 Narad
    September 24, 2017

    It’s too bad that your legal skills are apparently so atrophied that you can’t get in on those guaranteed fees and have to settle for being a low-rent nut, Gindo.

  118. #118 NWO Reporter
    September 24, 2017

    PGPig, your influence on friends and family isn’t that great? Gee, what a shocker! I would have thought your charm and respect would win people over right and left. 😀 Of course, given your own shaky relationship with truth, it’s doubtful you are actually getting your vaccines as you claim. However, if you are, I wish you luck with them. Fingers crossed!

  119. #119 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    September 25, 2017

    VIrginia Stoner (and I hope you get Google juice from this), the only battle here is the battle against ignorance. I’d bet real dollars that you don’t understand this, but anyone can scroll up and see what we have here is science, logic, honesty, along with a heapin’ helpin’ of what ever it is you bring to the party, you pile of $hit sculpted into a quasi-human form.

    You could have declared victory by saying that you do not believe that vaccines can turn people into wolves, but you know that anti-vaxers arguments are so thin that the day may come that they have to say ‘what about lycanthropy? where’s the study about that?’

    You’re dead to me. If thinking you won gets you thru the night, you’re welcome to it, I try to not deny children their simple comforts. But every time the words ‘ethics’ or ‘honesty’ cross your mind, you will know “That’s not how Virginia Stoner rolls”.

  120. #120 Narad
    September 25, 2017

    Of course, given your own shaky relationship with truth, it’s doubtful you are actually getting your vaccines as you claim.

    Oh, yay, the Gerg routine. Speaking of shaky relationships, Ginny, it would really be a lot more interesting if you explain your issues with gravity. It’s an ecumenical joint.

  121. #121 Politicalguineapig
    September 25, 2017

    NWO: Oh, that’s rich. A Trump fangirl calling ME a liar! Honey, you wouldn’t know what the truth was if it sat on you. You think the Earth is flat!

    And you’re kinda proving my point about your age. Why don’t you go outside for a while?

    I mean, seriously, why would I lie about something as mundane as getting vaccines. When you grow up, you’ll see that the world is not nearly as complicated and dangerous as you’re believing it is.

  122. #122 Politicalguineapig
    September 25, 2017

    I bet a mouse could pass the bar exam for Texas.

  123. #123 NWO Reporter
    September 25, 2017

    Johnny, you are a monumental hypocrite and coward, hiding behind your online anonymity because you know you are deceiving people. I’m dead to you because I ensnared you in your own web of deception. That you would try to defame me to hide your own corruption is not a surprise. I’m sure you’ll be back under one of your other profiles to do more of the same.

  124. #124 Narad
    September 25, 2017

    Oh, kewl, Gindo is back on the Julian is Science Mom routine or whatever was in her Xtranormal effort. The “profiles” bit is a nice touch.

  125. #125 NWO Reporter
    September 25, 2017

    Poor PGPig. Resorting to condescending “honeys” and that pathetic “flat earth” psy-op to undermine my credibility. Sounds like it’s you who belongs on the playground. 😀

  126. #126 Politicalguineapig
    September 25, 2017

    Psy-op? No, I was just stating your beliefs. It’s kind of hard to undermine your credibility, as you don’t have any.

    Grow up and act your age and maybe I’ll think about not insulting you. But for now, you make a fun chew toy, much like Mr. Dochniak. If you want respect, again, maybe stop acting stupid. And go outside once in a while, you aren’t a vampire.

  127. #127 Se Habla Espol
    September 25, 2017

    NWOR # 124:

    psy-op to undermine my credibility.

    Nobody can do nearly as much to undermine your credibility as you have already done on your own.

  128. #128 Catherina
    at home
    September 25, 2017

    The discussion has moved on a bit, but keep checking PubPeer, the blots seem to have been significantly manipulated. In 4C there are mirror imaged bands and 4D is mostly 4B flipped and with slightly different exposure.

  129. #129 NWO Reporter
    September 25, 2017

    PGPig, I guess that means if don’t think the earth is flat, which I don’t, then it is you who have no credibility. Do you purport to be a psychic, or are you just a liar? Either way, whatever credibility you might have had just flew out the window. 😀

  130. #130 Chris
    September 25, 2017

    NWO Troll: “Chris, in order for your simple math problem to yield any potentially useful information, we would need to know what percentage of vaccine injuries actually result in a claim being filed in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.”

    Um, yeah. That is exactly what that simple math word problem shows! So just calculate the ratio from that database. I actually gave you the numbers, why are you refusing to to answer the question!?

    What are you afraid of?

  131. #131 NWO Reporter
    September 25, 2017

    Chris, are you referring to this “simple math word problem”?

    “The data first column is the total number of vaccines given in the stated time period. Now run your finger over to the number to the total compensated claims. Now divide the first by the second number.”

    Where, exactly, in this “simple math word problem” do you account for the fact that most vaccine injuries do not result in a claim being filed in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program at all?

    Your “simple math word problem” assumes 100% of vaccine injuries result in a claim being filed in the VICP. That’s not realistic. The percentage of vaccine injuries reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System is somewhere between less that 1% and 10%. Even the CDC acknowledges it is less than 10%. How could only 1%-10% of vaccine injuries be reported to VAERS, but 100% be filed as claims in the VICP? Makes no sense.

    You can’t just ignore relevant data because you don’t have it. Unless you work for the CDC. 😉

  132. #132 Chris
    September 25, 2017

    NWO Troll: “Where, exactly, in this “simple math word problem” do you account for the fact that most vaccine injuries do not result in a claim being filed in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program at all?”

    Except you are using its table as a point of reference, and all else. Your excused proves all. You don’t like the answer…

    … therefore you have nothing.

    From now on, since you refuse to do my simple math word problem from the NVICP statistics, you are not allowed to bring it up again.

    If you do try to bring up the NVICP table or statistics after that last comment without answering my simple math problem based on it… you will be considered a hypocrite.

    Seriously, VAERS? That is your excuse? That is just is the most pathetic excuse for not being able to do a simple fourth grade division calculation ever.

  133. #133 NWO Reporter
    September 25, 2017

    LOL. I think you need to get some sleep, Chris. You’re not making sense. This whole thread was about Johnny’s list of injuries alleged to be caused by vaccines, and trying in vain to determine which ones he agreed with and which he disputed. His list contained nothing about incidence rates.

    A lot of parents don’t even know about the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Or they never associate their child’s death or serious injury with vaccination because they have been trained to believe vaccines are safe, and their doctor never mentions the possibility. Or they find out about the VICP or the likelihood of vaccine injury too late, after the 3 year statute of limitations has run. Or they just don’t have the heart to endure years of contentious litigation over it, especially if their child has died.

    If you were honest, you would admit that the percentage of vaccine injury claims actually filed in the VICP is extremely low–likely far less than 1%. But I guess that’s asking too much.

  134. #134 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    September 25, 2017

    NWO Reporter #110:

    Everyone with a vaccine injured child they wrongly believe to be harmed by vaccines was once pro-vaccine

    FTFY.

  135. #135 Lawrence
    September 25, 2017

    When asked what vaccine anti-vaxers do actually support, they won’t even name one….including the Rabies vaccine.

    They are hopeless.

  136. #136 NWO Reporter
    September 25, 2017

    Really, Lawrence? When asked what vaccine injuries actually occur, not a single pro-vaxxer on this blog would even name one…not even encephalitis.

    Y’all are hopeless. 😀

  137. #137 MI Dawn
    September 25, 2017

    NWOR: if you tell us which of Lawrence’s list of health issues are actually due to vaccines, we’ll tell you which vaccine injuries actually occur. HINT: gunshot wounds, although found in VAERS and manufacturer inserts, are not vaccine injuries.

  138. #138 NWO Reporter
    September 25, 2017

    MI Dawn, you mean Johnny’s list? 😉 All of the health issues on his list that also appear on my list of injuries that are ether on the Vaccine Injury Table, or have been compensated in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, can actually be caused by vaccines. Your turn.

  139. #139 Politicalguineapig
    September 25, 2017

    NWO: Honestly you believe every other conspiracy theory, so I’m surprised you don’t believe that one. I’m pretty sure you think the moon landing is a hoax. And like I said, you have no credibility, and you never ever did. Have you ever told the truth about anything in your life?

  140. #140 Politicalguineapig
    September 25, 2017

    Also, because I’m morbidly curious, how did you “pass” the bar exam and get your degree? Did you just buy the degree and the pass whole sale?

  141. #141 Narad
    September 25, 2017

    I’m pretty sure you think the moon landing is a hoax.

    Gindo is quite reticent when it comes to the “content” of her Y—be “channel.” I find this somewhat odd, because the whole trip, as well instantiated here, is merely off-topic attention whoring.

    Maybe Rappoport has some sort of loyalty-points system in which one can redeem Pink Flamingos–esque “rewards.”

  142. #142 NWO Reporter
    September 25, 2017

    MI Dawn, you haven’t forgotten about our agreement, have you?

    “NWOR: if you tell us which of Lawrence’s list of health issues are actually due to vaccines, we’ll tell you which vaccine injuries actually occur.”

    I answered your question. I’m not sure who “we” is, but since you made the agreement, I guess it is up to you to answer. Are there any health conditions in my list in #98 you contend cannot be caused by vaccines?

  143. #143 Narad
    September 26, 2017

    You’re going to hurt yourself with those goalposts, Pruno.

  144. #144 Lawrence
    September 26, 2017

    I’d say Lycanthropy cannot be caused by a vaccine, wouldn’t you agree?

  145. #145 MI Dawn
    September 26, 2017

    Sorry, NWOR. I have a life, and didn’t get on the computer last night. So…Johnny’s list of things that antivaxxers claim are caused by vaccines – here’s 4 items.
    AIDS
    Alzheimer’s
    Cancer
    Cerebral Palsy

    Add to that homosexuality.

    Now, give us some proof that vaccines actually cause any of those items.

    Now, to take a few from YOUR list:

    Lowered consciousness
    Nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, stomach ache
    Lumbosacral Raduculoplexus Neuropathy (LSRPN)

    None of these are life threatening. Please give us the NVICP case numbers so we can see that the courts actually compensated someone for these items. Because you are known to just pull stuff out of your nether regions. And no, I don’t have time to do the research – since you posted these things, you should easily be able to provide the case numbers. And that’s your claim – that the court COMPENSATED people for these items.

    Remember, simply reporting things to VAERS does not mean they were compensated for. After all, my sister (who faints every time she gets a shot of any kind) would be compensated if this were so. And I would have been compensated the last time I got the flu shot, if I’d bothered to report nausea as a problem.

    Ball’s in your court, Ginny. I have a busy day at work, but I’ll try to check back later and see what actual data you give.

  146. #146 Dangerous Bacon
    September 26, 2017

    Sometimes I feel like Captain Kirk, trying to navigate through a fierce ion storm of crank magnetism.

    Before this morning I’d never heard of Dr. Christian Bogner (an antivax ob-gyn up Orac’s way). He has some….interesting theories.

    “Why is not everyone getting vaccinated become autistic?”

    “The short answer to this question: Glyphosate”

    http://drbogner.com/vaccine-mechanisms-in-autism/

    I would try and explain this, but I got dizzy navigating through Bogner’s “Pac-Man” microglia cartoons.

    He’s a self-described Former Chief Surgeon, so he must know what he’s talking about. Oh, and he’s helped develop a cannabinoid spray, which surely is good for what ails you.

  147. #147 NWO Reporter
    September 26, 2017

    Stop trying to weasel out of your deal, MI Dawn. “NWOR: if you tell us which of Lawrence’s list of health issues are actually due to vaccines, we’ll tell you which vaccine injuries actually occur.” Post your list.

  148. #148 NWO Reporter
    September 26, 2017

    MI Dawn, I revised the list in #98 to include ONLY those health conditions that were either listed on the Vaccine Injury Table as of 9/10/2017, and/or have actually received compensation awards in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. The list is not yet complete. Again, to the extent these items overlap with Johnny’s list, I agree vaccines can cause them. Tell us whether you agree or disagree that these health conditions can be caused by vaccines.

    Acute Inflammatory Neurological Injury
    Acute Demyelinating Encephalomyelitis (ADEM)
    Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis
    Acute Hemorrhagic Leukoencephalomyelitis (AHLE)
    Anaphylaxis
    Bell’s Palsy
    Brachial Neuritis
    Brachial Plexopathy
    Cardiac arrest
    Cellulitis
    Cerebral Palsy
    Cognitive Delays
    Connective Tissue Disease
    Chronic arthritis
    Complex Regional Pain Syndrome
    Death
    Demyelinating Polyneuropathy
    Disseminated varicella vaccine strain viral disease (Removed in 2017 from the Table)
    Encephalopathy or encephalitis
    Frozen Shoulder Syndrome
    Guillain-Barré Syndrome
    Hearing Loss
    Inflammatory Tendinitis
    Intussusception
    Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis
    Kleine-Levin Syndrome
    Leukocytoclastic Vasculitis
    Lumbosacral Raduculoplexus Neuropathy (LSRPN)
    Lymphangitis
    Miller Fisher Syndrome
    Multiple Sclerosis
    Multi-Organ Failure
    Myelopathy
    Myositis
    Neuritis
    Neuralgic Amyotrophy
    Neurologic Injuries
    Neuromyelitis Optica (NMO)
    Optic Neuritis
    Overactive Immune Response
    Paralytic Polio
    Paresthesias/Small Fiber Neuropathy
    Parsonage Turner Syndrome
    Peripheral Neuropathy
    Polyneuropathy
    Psoriasiform Dermatitis
    Radial Nerve Injury
    Shoulder Injury Related to Vaccine Administration (Removed in 2017 from the Table)
    Spinal Cord Myelitis
    Strep A infection
    Systemic Inflammatory Response
    Thrombocytopenic purpura
    Tinnitus
    Toxic Shock
    Transverse Myelitis
    Vasovagal syncope (Removed in 2017 from the Table)
    Vaccine Strain Measles Viral Disease
    Vaccine Strain Polio Viral Infection
    Varicella vaccine strain viral reactivation (Removed in 2017 from the Table)
    Ventricular Fibrillation
    Vision Loss

  149. #149 MI Dawn
    September 26, 2017

    Nope. You haven’t answered my question. Table injuries are understood to *possibly* be caused by the vaccines, and the NVICP relies on less proof than a court of law that the vaccine *MAY* have caused the injury.

    We don’t deny vaccines can cause problems. What we ARE saying is that they don’t cause all the problems that antivaxxers claim they do. Do you disagree with that?

    At least your list doesn’t include autism, which the antivaxxers claim is the major problem.

  150. #150 MI Dawn
    September 26, 2017

    Oh, and let me say…compensation does not imply the vaccine caused the problem. It simply means that it is POSSIBLE/PROBABLE. NOT that it is CERTAIN.

  151. #151 Michael J. Dochniak
    Minnesota
    September 26, 2017

    MI Dawn writes (#149),

    At least your list doesn’t include autism, which the antivaxxers claim is the major problem.

    MJD says,

    In fairness, the list will eventually include allergy-induced regressive autism.

  152. #152 NWO Reporter
    September 26, 2017

    MI Dawn, STOP WEASELING. You asked me to “tell us which of Lawrence’s list of health issues are actually due to vaccines.” I told you my opinion on this issue as you asked. You said if I did so, “we’ll tell you which vaccine injuries actually occur.” In your opinion too, of course. List the conditions that, in your opinion, vaccines can cause, like you said you would.

    As for autism, many cases of vaccine injuries that include autism have been compensated in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. The claimed injury, and the injury compensated, however, was encephalopathy or seizure disorder. So yes, IMO vaccines can cause autism. Unanwered Questions: A Review of Compensated Cases of Vaccine-Induced Brain Injury, Pace Environmental Law Review, vol. 28, no. 2, 2011.

  153. #153 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    September 26, 2017

    @MJD #151:

    In fairness, the list will eventually include allergy-induced regressive autism.

    1) No it won’t since it has been confirmed that vaccines do not cause autism.
    2) Your perseverating on this has gone through boring and tedious, and is now utterly tiresome and banal.
    Just go away.

  154. #154 Kelsey Brennan
    Blacksburg, VA
    September 26, 2017

    The author of this paper is a moron.

  155. #155 Vaccine papers
    September 26, 2017

    Hi orac

    Im glad you wrote about this study because aluminum adjuvant toxicity should be central to the debate about vaccine safety.

    You wrote:”aluminum salts have been used as effective adjuvants for many years now and have an excellent safety record.”

    Can you please provide citations to support the safety of aluminum adjuvant? Particularly regarding neurological disorders and autism?

    When i search the scientific literature, i dont find any studies supporting the neurological safety of aluminum adjuvant. Instead i find papers like Jefferson 2004 or mitkus 2011. These studies are not designed to test neuro safety of al adjuvant, and have flaws or design choices that render them irrelevant to the question of neuro safety.

    In the scientific literature, aluminum adjuvant safety is often asserted with reference to its long history of use, but no citations are provided. Long history of use is not evidence for safety, especially for adverse outcomes that take months or years to manifest (like neuro disorders). Also, for most of its use history, al adjuvant dose was much smaller than today.

    Finally, there are no epidemiological studies of aluminum asjuvant (except the ecological study by shaw).

    So, please cite the studies that support the “excellent safety record” of aluminum adjuvant.

    • #156 Orac
      September 26, 2017

      Heheh. One notes that VP was the one to whom I referred above, the antivaxer who emailed me not just one but TWO OR THREE times challenging me to write about this, telling me what a good study it is and how she would be cutting it a lot. What happened? Nothing to say about my deconstruction of this paper? All you have to say is this? After nearly nearly a week of silence, you appear, and when you finally appear, do you tell me how my analysis is fatally flawed and why? Of course not! Instead you zero on on a single sentence and ignore everything else.

      I am amused. My analysis must be pretty damned good.

      😂😂😂

  156. #157 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    September 26, 2017

    @NWO Reporter #152: LOL! An article with Mary Holland as one of the authors? Get real!

  157. #158 NWO Reporter
    September 26, 2017

    Julian Frost, ad hominem is the resort of children. If you have evidence that the vaccine injury awards examined in the paper authored by Holland and three other researchers did not, in fact, involve injuries including autism, then post it.

  158. #159 Vaccine papers
    September 26, 2017

    Hi orac

    I just noticed your article today. No this is definitely not all i have to say on the matter. I will write more about it later. So dont draw conclusions just yet. And dont break your arm patting yourself on the back. There are several other reasoning errors and mistakes in your article and i will get to them.

    I think your assertion-without citation-of an “excellent safety record” for aluminum adjuvant, especially in the context of autism and/or neurological disorders is particularly egregious. So, can you please respond to this?

    The other issues will be addressed shortly.

    • #160 Orac
      September 26, 2017

      You just noticed it today? Oh, please. After your emailing me at least two times (maybe three, I don’t remember for sure) in one day about this study, I call bullshit. But I do look forward to your comments. It’s been a rough, depressing last few days, for a variety of reasons unrelated to the blog. I could use a good laugh.

      And is still strange that you didn’t decide to lead with all those “flaws” you claim there are. Actually, no, it isn’t.

      Here, I’ll remind you of what you wrote to me on Sept. 19:

      Hi Orac:

      Its me, VP from vaccinepapers.org!

      There is a new paper from the Shaw lab at UBC. They measured cytokine levels in brains of animals that received vaccine-relevant dosage of Al adjuvant as neonates. The brain was inflamed, and it had a pattern of inflammation matching inflammation present in human autism.

      Also, IL-6 levels were increased almost 5-fold. IL-6 causes autism-like behavioral abnormalities in animal models. Human studies also implicate IL-6 as a cause of autism.

      Males had greater brain inflammation than females.

      I hop3 you will write about this new study. We will be citing it a lot!

      cheers

      VP

    • #161 Orac
      September 26, 2017

      Also, don’t forget to address the charges of self-plagiarism and image manipulation. There’s been some very suspicious stuff pointed out about the images in several of the figures:

      https://pubpeer.com/publications/4AEB7C8F30015079E2611157CF8983

      https://themadvirologist.blogspot.com/2017/09/does-recent-paper-by-shaw-really-show.html

  159. #162 Julian Frost
    September 26, 2017

    @NWO Reporter, I’m not going to pay $30 to some predatory publisher. Only the abstract was available, and I do not trust Mary Holland. Put her name into the search box up top to see why.
    The question of whether or not vaccines cause autism has been investigated into the ground. I went to Google Scholar and searched. The very first result was
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X14006367?cc%3Dy
    The money quote from the abstract:

    Five cohort studies involving 1,256,407 children, and five case-control studies involving 9,920 children were included in this analysis. The cohort data revealed no relationship between vaccination and autism (OR: 0.99; 95% CI: 0.92 to 1.06) or ASD (OR: 0.91; 95% CI: 0.68 to 1.20), nor was there a relationship between autism and MMR (OR: 0.84; 95% CI: 0.70 to 1.01), or thimerosal (OR: 1.00; 95% CI: 0.77 to 1.31), or mercury (Hg) (OR: 1.00; 95% CI: 0.93 to 1.07). Similarly the case-control data found no evidence for increased risk of developing autism or ASD following MMR, Hg, or thimerosal exposure when grouped by condition (OR: 0.90, 95% CI: 0.83 to 0.98; p = 0.02) or grouped by exposure type (OR: 0.85, 95% CI: 0.76 to 0.95; p = 0.01). Findings of this meta-analysis suggest that vaccinations are not associated with the development of autism or autism spectrum disorder. Furthermore, the components of the vaccines (thimerosal or mercury) or multiple vaccines (MMR) are not associated with the development of autism or autism spectrum disorder.

    Vaccines do NOT cause autism.

  160. #163 NWO Reporter
    September 26, 2017

    Julian Frost, you don’t have to pay $30 to “some predatory publisher” to read the paper–it’s available to the public for free. http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1681&context=pelr

    This investigation, published in a peer-reviewed law journal in 2011, found 83 cases of autism among those compensated for vaccine-induced brain damage in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

  161. #164 Lawrence
    September 26, 2017

    Once again, you show a complete lack of understanding of statistics and statistical analysis.

  162. #165 Julian Frost
    September 26, 2017

    So i downloaded the paper and perused it. I had to give up. The authors did so much JAQing Off that it was clear they were not interested in researching the question honestly, but instead in insinuating that it is.

  163. #166 NWO Reporter
    September 26, 2017

    Julian Frost, the authors found 83 cases of autism among those compensated for vaccine-induced brain damage in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. You have ZERO evidence their findings are not accurate. But you don’t like the findings so you insinuate the authors are dishonest. It’s a deceptive cop out.

  164. #167 Lawrence
    September 26, 2017

    Because you haven’t bothered to read any of the judgements for those 83 cases…..

    Just like anti-vaxers don’t bother to read the VAERS reports that they love to quote numbers on.

  165. #168 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    September 26, 2017

    @NWO Reporter:

    [T]he authors found 83 cases of autism among those compensated for vaccine-induced brain damage in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

    And they tried to insinuate that the vaccines were responsible for causing those cases of autism, even though the six Test Cases in the Omnibus Autism Proceedings not only lost, but lost so badly that all five Appeals to higher courts saw the original verdicts upheld.

  166. #169 brian
    Outside Crosby's labyrinth
    September 26, 2017

    NWO Reporter wrote:

    This investigation, published in a peer-reviewed law journal in 2011, found 83 cases of autism among those compensated for vaccine-induced brain damage in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

    The law clearly lags many years behind the scientific evidence, and the overwhelming evidence that alleged cases of vaccine-induced encephalopathy and “residual seizure disorder” are caused by pre-existing mutations rather than by vaccination began to accumulate only a decade ago.

    The 83 claims that you cited would likely not be compensated today, now that the scientific evidence is so clear. (Hint: these mutations can cause such syndromes in unvaccinated laboratory animals. So much for “A Shot in the Dark.”) Accordingly, the US Court of Federal Claims has begun to deny such claims and even to require genotyping–at least insofar as checking for mutations in one particular gene (among many genes known to cause similar syndromes. See, for example:

    http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions/SMGOLKIEWICZSTONE041510.pdf
    https://ecf.cofc.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2010vv0704-144-0
    https://ecf.cofc.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2010vv0394-136-0

    See also:
    –Berkovic SF et al. De-novo mutations of the sodium channel gene SCN1A in alleged vaccine encephalopathy: a retrospective study. Lancet Neurol. 2006 Jun;5(6):488-92.
    –Catarino CB et al. Dravet syndrome as epileptic encephalopathy: evidence from long-term course and neuropathology. Brain. 2011 Oct;134(Pt 10):2982-3010.
    –Garcia-Junco-Clemente P et al. Overexpression of calcium-activated potassium channels underlies cortical dysfunction in a model of PTEN-associated autism. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2013 Nov 5;110(45):18297-302
    –Guglielmi L et al. Update on the implication of potassium channels in autism: K(+) channel autism spectrum disorder. Front Cell Neurosci. 2015 Mar 2;9:34.
    –Li BM et al. Autism in Dravet syndrome: prevalence, features, and relationship to the clinical characteristics of epilepsy and mental retardation. Epilepsy Behav. 2011 Jul;21(3):291-5
    –Okumura A et al. Acute encephalopathy in children with Dravet syndrome. Epilepsia. 2011 Nov 16.
    –Reyes IS et al. Alleged Cases of Vaccine Encephalopathy Rediagnosed Years Later as Dravet Syndrome. Pediatrics. 2011 Aug 15.
    –Schmunk G, Gargus J. Channelopathy pathogenesis in autism spectrum disorders. Front Genet. 2013 Nov 5;4:222.
    –Wiznitzer M. Dravet syndrome and vaccination: when science prevails over speculation. Lancet Neurol. 2010 Jun;9(6):559-61.
    –Wolff M et al. Severe myoclonic epilepsy of infants (Dravet syndrome): natural history and neuropsychological findings. Epilepsia. 2006;47 Suppl 2:45-8.

  167. #170 Lawrence
    September 26, 2017

    Exactly – anti-vaxers ignore the Omnibus cases all the time….mostly because they don’t understand them.

  168. #171 MI Dawn
    September 26, 2017

    One would think that NWOR would, as a lawyer, understand the very clear writings of the Special Masters. After all *I* understand them.

    Hey, NWOR: tell me why autism isn’t on the list of table injuries, why EVERY case in the autism omnibus lost, and what Hannah Poling got compensated for.

    And you want to know what illnesses vaccines can cause that I will admit to: OK. Here’s a few.

    Allergic reactions up to and including anaphylaxis, which may lead to death.
    The flu vaccine may lead to Guillan-Barre syndrome, although at a much lesser rate than the actual flu disease.
    Panderix (never given in the US) may have increased a tendency to narcolepsy in a specific population.

    Happy?

  169. #172 Chris
    September 26, 2017

    Could we please stop feeding the very repetitive and obviously clueless troll?

  170. #173 NWO Reporter
    September 26, 2017

    Julian Frost, not really. Autism is a behavioral diagnosis, based on the observations of certain symptoms. There is no objective physical test to identify autism. The symptoms are a manifestation of some other kind of underlying damage.

  171. #174 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    September 26, 2017

    @NWO Reporter:

    The symptoms (of autism) are a manifestation of some other kind of underlying damage.

    As someone with an official diagnosis of autism, find an erupting volcano and throw yourself into it. Autism is not brain damage, and is not caused by vaccination. Research shows a clear genetic cause of autism.

  172. #175 NWO Reporter
    September 26, 2017

    MI Dawn, so you are contending that out of the 61 injuries listed in #148 (injuries that are on the Vaccine Injury Table, and that have actually received awards in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program), all but the follow 4 CANNOT be caused by vaccines?

    Allergic Reaction including anaphylaxis
    Death
    Guillain-Barré syndrome
    Narcolepsy

    Are you angling for a job at the vaccine court or something? 😀

  173. #176 NWO Reporter
    September 26, 2017

    Julian Frost “Research shows a clear genetic cause of autism.” Really? Are you one of those people who denies there is a recent epidemic of autism? Because it would be impossible for a genetic cause to suddenly explode within a few decades the way autism has.

  174. #177 Lawrence
    September 26, 2017

    Claiming that autism is “Brain Damage” allows anti-vaxers to treat those with autism as less than human….

  175. #178 Julian Frost
    September 26, 2017

    @NWO Reporter:

    Because it would be impossible for a genetic cause to suddenly explode within a few decades the way autism has.

    But not for increased awareness, broadened diagnostic criteria, diagnostic substitution and previous underdiagnosis to make it look as if something had suddenly exploded instead of being previously under-recognised.

  176. #179 MI Dawn
    September 26, 2017

    NWOR: No. I simply picked out the ones that I know can definitely be caused by vaccines.

    On the other hand, you obviously have never heard of expanded DSM criteria and diagnostic substitution which mostly accounts for your “‘explosion”.

    Anecdotally, I can personally name 5 people, 25 years and older, who would probably have autism spectrum diagnoses if they were born after 2000. They all fit the current DSM criteria. They definitely aren’t brain damaged.

  177. #180 MI Dawn
    September 26, 2017

    Clarification: brain damage and autism are 2 very different diagnoses. People with autism range from “able to function independently in society” to “will never be able to perform self-care”. But low IQ is NOT a standard of autism any more than any other health issues are.

  178. #181 NWO Reporter
    September 26, 2017

    MI Dawn, are you denying that any of the other 61 health conditions in #148 (health conditions listed on the Vaccine Injury Table and which have actually received awards in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program) can be caused by vaccines?

  179. #182 NWO Reporter
    September 26, 2017

    Julian Frost, it sounds like you and MI Dawn are denying that the incidence of autism has exploded in the last few decades–saying it’s just a perception prompted by more expansive and better diagnoses. I’ve never heard of any longtime teachers who agree with that. They all seem to say there has been a very real and dramatic increase in the number of special needs children over the last couple of decades.

  180. #183 Lawrence
    September 26, 2017

    Another anti-vaxer who knows nothing about the way that the mentally-ill used to be treated in this country.

    Long-time teachers didn’t see kids with autism in school, because they weren’t sent to school….at least not normal ones.

  181. #184 NWO Reporter
    September 26, 2017

    Lawrence, you claim to have superior expertise because you know something from Psych 101? If you think children today do not have any more neurodevelopmental or mental health disabilities than children did in 1980, try persuading with facts instead of condescension.

  182. #185 Lawrence
    September 26, 2017

    You’ve obviously never heard of the American with Disabilities Act….

  183. #186 Lawrence
    September 26, 2017

    And it just so happens that I have an inherent advantage over individuals such as yourself.

    I am a rational human being.

  184. #187 Lawrence
    September 26, 2017

    Because even my grandparents could describe individuals in their communities, going back decades, who today would be considered autistic…..they either ended up in the asylums or locked away by their families.

  185. #188 NWO Reporter
    September 26, 2017

    Right, Lawrence. I’m no match for your supercilious powers. 😀

  186. #189 herr doktor bimler
    September 26, 2017

    There is a new paper from the Shaw lab at UBC. They measured cytokine levels in brains of animals that received vaccine-relevant dosage of Al adjuvant as neonates. The brain was inflamed, and it had a pattern of inflammation matching inflammation present in human autism.

    Does VaccinePapers read Pubpeer? The revelations emerging there about faked data in the paper are devastating.
    https://pubpeer.com/publications/4AEB7C8F30015079E2611157CF8983

  187. #190 Dangerous Bacon
    September 26, 2017

    Lawrence, bragging that you’re not nuts is ableist.

  188. #191 Lawrence
    September 26, 2017

    Correct.

  189. #192 Lawrence
    September 26, 2017

    N

  190. #193 Chris
    September 26, 2017

    Lawrence: “You’ve obviously never heard of the American with Disabilities Act….”

    Nor the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.

    Please stop feeding this clueless troll.

  191. #194 Lawrence
    September 26, 2017

    True

  192. #195 Alain
    September 26, 2017

    May I please quote from my reprint of the DSM-I (copyright: 1952):

    000-x28 Schizophrenic reaction, childhood type

    Here will be classified those schizophrenic reactions occuring before puberty. The clinical picture may differ from schizophrenic reactions occuring in other age periods because of the immaturity and plasticity of the patient at the time of onset of the reaction. Psychotic reaction in children, manifesting primarily autism, will be classified here. Special symptomatology may be added to the diagnosis as manifestations.

    Need I say that the DSM-I was a statistical manual designed to help psychiatrists fill out code forms (the precursor of today’s EHR) for compliance with the

    Draft Act Governing Hospitalisation of the Mentally Ill, Federal Security Agency, Public Health Service, Publication No. 51

    .

    IMO, they can stick the word choice and language where the sun doesn’t shine but we’re dealing with the verbiage used in 1952 for compliance with an Act which is older so I digress a little bit.

    That said, the DSM is now in its 5th edition from a line of work originally created by the US census bureau (yep, counting patient in asylum started the incentive of alienists among other to keep documentation about their patient; it snowballed from there).

    Obviously, the methods and criteria for diagnosing autism changed in a very major way from that time (1952) and with it, the headcount.

    That said, in my case, I have a metric ton of documentation from my 1st and 2nd primary grade in an hospital for which, if we apply current day diagnostic criteria would mean that I do have a diagnostic of autism (and it was made in 2004) but….and that is a giant but I didn’t meet the criteria back in 1982-1984 when that metric ton of paperwork was done.

    back in 1984, we moved, changed city and never mentionned to anyone (school or otherwise) my two years of schooling in that hospital.

    Now Ginny, I wasn’t mentioning all that for you but rather, the fence-sitters who read, comment or don’t comment but may ask one question which ought to be asked:

    1-: how many other current day adult autistic who lived a similar situation where they don’t have any diagnostic or they never disclose it? (back in 1980+ and even before, a dx of autism carried a metric ton of stigma).

    Alain

  193. #196 Gallimaufry
    September 26, 2017

    NWO Reporter said:

    This investigation, published in a peer-reviewed law journal in 2011, found 83 cases of autism among those compensated for vaccine-induced brain damage in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

    The “peers” who reviewed that article were apparently as scientifically illiterate as you and the authors, since they did not understand or even bother note that the evidence that was available before that article was published emphatically refuted the idea that such cases were caused by vaccination. But, since you’ve posted essentially the same nonsense before, you knew that, didn’t you? Why do you continue to lie?

  194. #197 Chris
    September 26, 2017

    Alain: “1-: how many other current day adult autistic who lived a similar situation where they don’t have any diagnostic or they never disclose it? (back in 1980+ and even before, a dx of autism carried a metric ton of stigma”

    Um, yeah. In 1991 I was assured my then three year old nonverbal child was not autistic because he smiled and laughed (even when it was inappropriate). Then just five years later the same neurologist told me the child would grow out of the hand tics (something we now call stimming).

    About three years ago the young man was finally diagnosed with autism level 2 under DSM V. He also qualified under DSM IV.

    Yeah, same person…. different criteria. And according to the psychologist lots of research during the past decade. Some of that research has discovered about half of the genetic sequences that cause behaviors consistent with autism.

    They are looking for more, so if the parents of a child autism want to give up some spit and answer questions, sign up here:
    https://sparkforautism.org/

    (I wanted to, but my son is over eighteen, so he has to sign up. It is not going to happen, le sigh)

  195. #198 NWO Reporter
    September 27, 2017

    Gallimaufry, you seem a bit confused about the difference between a legal review and science. Anyway, if you ever leave the playground and come up with something other than ad hominem, let me know.

  196. #199 Gallimaufry
    September 27, 2017

    NWO Reporter, I understand the difference between a legal review that ignores the scientific evidence and the scientific evidence that refutes that legal review at least as completely as you do.

    I also understand that your repetitive citations of that legal review are a cynical and dishonest attempt to suggest that the cases discussed in that legal review were caused by vaccination, despite the clear evidence to the contrary that was discussed and cited earlier in this thread as well as in other threads on this site in which you have made the same nonsensical claim.

  197. #200 NWO Reporter
    September 27, 2017

    It’s hilarious how many people think the DSM is based on science. It’s not based on science at all. There are no “genetic markers” for an autism diagnosis. The criteria for each diagnosis is arrived at by vote. The more diagnoses that get voted in, and the broader they are, the better it is for every industry with a stake. There’s something in the DSM for pretty much anyone who wants a diagnosis. That’s to ensure that insurance companies have a reason to pay, and psychiatrists and psychologists have a reason to prescribe drugs.

    And more and more, it’s to ensure that children with a need for special accommodations have a way to get them. That is the problem that seems to be really increasing these days–the number of children who need special accommodations to learn, who are unable to function reasonably normally in life, and who, as they grow older, are not able to be self-sufficient.

  198. #201 Julian Frost
    Gauteng North
    September 27, 2017

    NWO Reporter, you seem more than a bit confused about the difference between a legal review and science. You also don’t seem to know what an ad hominem is. “the evidence that was available before that article was published emphatically refuted the idea that such cases were caused by vaccination.” is not an ad hominem.

  199. #202 NWO Reporter
    September 27, 2017

    Julian, apparently you missed this part of Gallimaufry’s comment: “…apparently as scientifically illiterate as you.” That’s called ad hominem.

    And apparently you missed the point of the Holland paper as well–the one you didn’t bother to read. The point was to see whether vaccine injuries that include autism were, in fact, receiving compensation awards in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. The authors found they were. You can come up with all the industry papers you want saying vaccines don’t cause autism, and it won’t change that fact.

    I’m sure it goes without saying that you’re taking the CDC’s 2003 autism study at face value. The one where that “crazy conspiracy theorist” and CDC researcher Dr. William Thompson blew the whistle on research fraud, the omission of data to get rid of an unwanted result, a result that indicated the MMR vaccine could cause autism.

  200. #203 Vaccine Papers
    September 27, 2017

    *********”For antivaxers, aluminum is the new mercury.”

    15 years ago, vaccine activists advanced the mercury hypothesis and it was wrong. It was tested and while the evidence did suggest some harm, it was clear that mercury could not explain the persistent rise and high rates of autism. New evidence supports the hypothesis that autism is caused by aluminum adjuvant. Science advances by changing a working hypothesis in view of new evidence. Thats why focus is shifting to aluminum. Arguing that the aluminum hypothesis is precluded by the studies on mercury is nonsensical. Studies of mercury cannot be used as evidence for the safety of aluminum adjuvant.

    The evidence support aluminum adjuvant causation of autism is far stronger than the mercury evidence ever was. A big reason why is the immune activation research, which started at about 2005. We now know the immune pathway that causes autism (IL-6 >> IL-17 expression).

    *************”Adjuvants are compounds added to vaccine in order to boost the immune response to the antigen used, and aluminum salts have been used as effective adjuvants for many years now and have an excellent safety record”

    There is no evidence for the neurological or autism safety of aluminum adjuvant. Jefferson 2004 and Mitkus 2011 provide no evidence for neuro safety. They have many flaws and design choices that preclude their application to neuro safety, such as :
    –too short follow up (Jefferson)
    –no investigation of neuro outcomes or autism (jefferson)
    –comparing two forms of aluminum, instead of Al to saline (Jefferson)
    –looking at only one or a couple vaccines at a time, not the entire schedule (Jefferson)
    –subjects not infants, but rather older children or adults. (Jefferson)

    –Not based on toxicity tests with Al adjuvant (Mitkus)
    –Theoretical modeling study with no empirical work (Mitkus)
    –Use of erroneous NOAEL, which is too high by a factor of 7.6 (mitkus)
    –Ignores kinetics and toxicity of particles. Only considers dissolved Al3+(Mitkus)

    *****************Unfortunately, there is no clear statement of hypothesis where it belongs, namely in the introduction

    Hypothesis is stated. Obviously, the hypothesis is that aluminum adjuvant induces inflammation and elevated cytokine expression i the brain.

    QUOTE: “To investigate Al′s immune and neurotoxic impact in vivo, we tested the expression of 17 genes which are implicated in both autism and innate immune response in brain samples of Al-injected mice in comparison to control mice.”

    ***************The point is that this study does not confirm or refute any hypothesis, much less provide any sort of slam-dunk evidence that aluminum adjuvants cause autism.

    It confirms the hypothesis that aluminum adjuvant induces inflammation in the brain, and that the inflammation is similar to brain inflammation observed in human autism. Also, IL-6 is proven to cause autistic behaviors in animals, and the aluminum adjuvant induced IL-6 in the brain (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17913903 and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26822608

    **************”After all, autism is a human neurodevelopmental disorder diagnosed entirely by behavioral changes, and correlating mouse behavior with human behavior is very problematic. Indeed, correlating the behavior of any animal, even a primate, with human behavior is fraught with problems. Basically, there is no well-accepted single animal model of autism, and autism research has been littered with mouse models of autism that were found to be very much wanting. (“Rain mouse,” anyone?) ”

    Autism has been shown to be associated with physiological dysfunctions such as immune system disorders, microbiome dysbiosis/GI disorders, chronic brain inflammation, and mitochondrial dysfunction for example. Immune activation has been shown to cause all these features of autism. These facts support the face validity of the immune activation model of autism.

    *************” Looking over the schedule used, I can’t help but note that there’s a huge difference between human infant development and mouse development. Basically, the mice received aluminum doses claimed to be the same as what human babies get by weight six times in the first 17 days of life. By comparison, in human babies these doses are separated by months.”

    Mice develop faster than humans, so the schedule is compressed to match the development that occurs over the first 6 months in humans. It is reasonable to be concerned that this may increase the toxicity of al adjuvant. However, there are also reasons why the compressed dosing schedule should not make a different. Al adjuvant is mostly retained on the time scale of 6 months (see Flarend 1997). So, the doses in humans are cumulative, as they will be in mice dosed over 17 days. If the al adjuvant was eliminated on the time scale of 2 months (the gap between vaccination dates in humans), then this argument could be given some weight. But thats not the case.

    If aluminum adjuvant was as extraordinarily safe as vaccine promoters claim, a compressed dosing schedule should not make a difference.

    **************”But I do know enough to know that NF-κB is easy to activate and very nonspecific. I used to joke that just looking at my cells funny would activate NF-κB signaling. Also, NF-κB activation is indeed associated with inflammation, but so what? What we have is an artificial model in which the mice are dosed much more frequently with aluminum than human infants. Does this have any relevance to the human brain or to human autism? who knows? Probably not. No, almost certainly not.”

    NF-Kb is elevated in human autism. See
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3098713/
    and
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0019488

    Sure lots of everyday exposures induce NF-Kb. But the NF-Kb does not typically occur in the brain. Also, the effect of infections etc is transient. In contrast, the aluminum adjuvant induced NF-Kb in the brain, and the NF-Kb induction was persistent. Measurements were performed about 3.5 months after the final injection of adjuvant. The PERSISTENCE of the inflammation is a critical factor that differentiates al adjuvant exposure from natural infections and the everyday exposures that induce NF-Kb. Persistent inflammation injures the brain over time and disrupts development processes.

    I recommend this recent paper on neuroinflammation in autism: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs12264-017-0103-8.pdf

    *****************”This is basically a fishing expedition in which the only real hypothesis is that “aluminum in vaccines is bad and causes bad immune system things to happen in the brain.”

    This is not a reasonable argument in view of the extensive research on immune activation and cytokine impacts on brain development. The immune activation research firmly establishes inflammation/cytokines as a cause of human autism.

    ******************”Indeed, correlating the behavior of any animal, even a primate, with human behavior is fraught with problems. Basically, there is no well-accepted single animal model of autism, and autism research has been littered with mouse models of autism that were found to be very much wanting.”

    There are challenges, but there are ways to measure autism-like behaviors in mice and monkeys. Eye tracking experiments with monkeys show the same social attention abnormalities as in human autism for example. Paper: http://vaccinepapers.org/wp-content/uploads/Maternal-Immune-Activation-in-Nonhuman-Primates-Alters-Social-Attention-in-Juvenile-Offspring.pdf

    The immune activation animal models meet all requirements for validity. Infection/inflammation is a well accepted risk factor for autism. Drugs effective for human autism are also effective in the animal models. The immune activatin models replicate all known features of autism. There is little evidence to suggest the immune activation models are not representative of human autism.

    A 2016 review states: ”
    “These MIA (maternal immune activation) animal models meet all of the criteria required for validity for a disease model: They mimic a known disease-related risk factor (construct validity), they exhibit a wide range of disease-related symptoms (face validity), and they can be used to predict the efficacy of treatments (predictive validity).”
    –Dr Kimberley McAllister, UC Davis MIND Institute, Science”

    **************”The authors stated that they did it because they wanted to follow previously utilized protocols in their laboratory. In some cases, that can be a reasonable rationale for an experimental choice,”

    You dont know the details of why this decision was made. it true that SC injection means the results in isolation cannot be assumed to apply to IM adjuvant. But Crepeaux 2016 used IM injection, and reported behavioral abnormalities and brain inflammation. So IM causes brain injury and inflammation also.

    ********************”(That’s why we used to call it semiquantitative PCR.) Quite frankly, in this day and age, there is absolutely zero excuse for choosing this method for quantifying gene transcripts.”

    Semiquantitative PCR is still in use today.

    *******************””Now, take a look at Figures 1A and 1B as well as Figures 2A and 2B. Look at the raw bands in the A panels of the figures. Do you see much difference, except for IFNG (interferon gamma) in Figure 1A? I don’t.

    Get your eyes checked. CCL2 and TNFA are obviously different in Fig 1A. A Fig 1B shows that CCL2, IFNG and TNFa expression have the largest increases compared to controls. Obviously, this indicates inflammation in the brain.

    Fig 2 is FOR FEMALES, which are more tolerant of the toxic effects of al adjuvant. The milder inflammation in female mice (Fig 2) supports the connection to human autism because males are affected more often by about a 4:1 ratio.

    **********************”Also, the mouse immune system is different from the human immune system.”

    On questions of fundamental biological developmental processes, animal models deserve a presumption of applicability to humans. There is no evidence that these models are not relevant to humans.

    IL-6 function in humans and mice appear to be identical. There are no known differences. Your “Of Mice and Not Men” paper is a good paper (I have read it), and it does not mention any mouse-human differences in IL-6. My understanding is that human and mouse IL-6 are identical molecules.

    Immune activation results have been replicated in monkeys.

    Human epi studies, case reports and other human studies demonstrate that inflammation increases risk of brain injury, autism and mental illness in humans. Its clear that brain inflammation is important in human mental illnesses, including autism.

    There is consensus among researchers that immune activation animal models are relevant to humans.

    Aluminum is toxic to all life. There is no reason to believe that humans are uniquely resistant to aluminum, and much evidence that Al exposure causes brain injury (e.g. see the “Camelford incident”). https://en.wikipedia.org/wi

    Fundamental biological processes like brain development are not the types of things that differ greatly between humans and other mammals. The types of things that are different are drug binding affinities and drug metabolism, because they can be strongly affected by small genetic differences. Thats not the case with brain development. Human and other mammal brains develop by the same processes.