Dr. Isis's recent edition of Ask Dr. Isis has generated quite a bit of buzz in the comments section. My sincerest thanks to Girl with Braids for the question that allowed me to explore some of the issues I have been wrestling with. I sincerely hope that I was able to answer your question. As the comments section of my post has focused mainly on feminist issues, I'd like to draw your attention to GirlPostDoc's continued discussion on the racial aspect of the question.
The discussion of feminism has continued on ScienceBlogs and I would encourage you to check out some of the other very thoughtful posts on the topic. ScienceWoman offers up her view of post-feminist revolution Utopia here. I have to say, it sounds lovely. Sheril Kirshenbaum from The Intersection reminds us to not be "women in science" but to be "scientists" at her post here. My thoughts on the matter are in her comments section. PalMD chimes in with a big old pat on the back for women scientists here. I do so adore that adorable doctor (in an absolutely and completely professional and gender-neutral way)!
So, feeling like Dr. Isis had done a little good in the world, she snuggled into bed with a glass of Pinot Noir, a brownie, and the brand new pair of shoes she found on clearance at Target today.
Figure 1: Dr. Isis's new shoes available here. Dr. Isis has no problem buying shoes at Target when they have adorable magenta metallic faux snakeskin racing stripes on them. I can go super fast in these shoes.
Dr. Isis snuggled up to her shoes, filled her mouth with brownie and Pinot and started reading through your comments. That's when Dr. Isis came across this from frequent commenter and darling of the blogosphere Becca:
Oh magnificent Dr. Isis-Oh, most delicious Becca. If you think I do not consider with every post the effects of the role I model and that I'm all-in just for the giggles, then you are sadly, sadly mistaken. However, I think we should all be very clear that it is not my Naughty Monkeys that are causing women to leave academia. It is not my Naughty Monkeys that are making women feel as though they do not have support of their colleagues when they raise families. You see, Becca, I could wear Danskos every day for the rest of my life (although I would be terribly miserable), never visit Sephora again, wrap my chest every day until my DD breasts stick out no more than a B cup would, and my male colleagues aren't going to suddenly notice and say, "Hey! Dr. Isis seems a little less girly! Let's invite her into the club and pay her as much as her male colleagues."
I am not naive enough to think that I make choices divorced from the cultures I was raised in, but I think I have the ability to reject parts of culture that I find disdainful.Fact: you are entitled to wear whatever shoes you damn well please. You are entitled to, and fully capable of, intelligent agency in choosing which aspects of culturally-normed gender roles you wish to conform to. I can see why any implication to the contrary would be deeply annoying/offensive.
Here is how I think one could apply Twisty's framework of analysis of human behavior given the patriarchy: taking into account societal context, there are times (e.g. your exclaimations of distress over other's lack of fashion sense) where you carry a patriarchical message. You will, partially by implication through your own choices, but also through active processes, encourage conformity to sterotypical gender norms that others may experience as oppressive. You should carefully consider the effects of the role you model. We all should, albeit not to absurd lengths of energy- and soul-sucking excess.
Opinion: wholistically, the whole Dr. Isis package, of snarky comments, joy of motherhood, absurd shoes, totally hot science, and bloggy goodness,makes you a totally awesome role model. But nobody is perfect.
I hate to use this phrase, but this is a Strawman Fallacy and it makes us take our eye off the larger prize. Fashion is not our problem -- I could go to work tomorrow dressed as un-traditionally feminine as I could muster and it's not going to change the fact that I've gotta figure out how to keep amazing research going, plan the birth of my next child (but don't tell the Isis-in-laws I'm considering another), figure out how to nurse said baby while managing my career and return to work at a time that is beneficial to me and my child, and keep my home running while I do it all. My shoes are oppressive? My whole life is oppressive because I am trying to make my way in a career that only partially respects and accommodates my desire or lack of desire to reproduce. My shoes cover my feet and are something for me to look down at and admire. They relate to my femininity in as much as I believe that a woman should feel free to express her femininity in a way that she finds gratifying without it leading to speculation as to what she may or may not by willing to do sexually, a determination of whether she should be included in the workplace, or her capability to achieve success. I want to be clear though that when I say "woman," I am very sensitive to the comments left on the Ask Dr. Isis post by a transgendered individual and do not believe this is applicable only to those born biologically female. In fact, this is one of my heroes.
Now, the question becomes whether I am encouraging a stereotypical gender role that oppresses you or any other reader. I answer, "meh." I find certain things to be beautiful and they may not be the same things that you do. In fact, many of you have no problem telling me how ugly or uncomfortable looking you find my shoes. Some of you write whole posts about it. I can't lie to you. I dislike Crocs in the workplace, high-waisted jeans, and visible panty lines. I wear make-up pretty much every day and color my hair like a maniac. It's just how I roll. I see this as no different than if we stood in front of a painting and each interpreted it -- the Mona Lisa has been admired by millions. Personally, I find it a little creepy. However, when I tell you that you can't have a job because you don't also find the Mona Lisa to be creepy, then and only then does it become oppression.
But, let's face it, she is kind of creepy.
Also, suggesting that Dr. Isis is imperfect? Not cool, dude.
Video 1: If you really think the decision to choose a tasteful pantsuit over a little black something is going to result in gender equality, then I fear that we are all just another link in the chain
Education & Careers
Comments
i was just browsing facebook, and i ran across some new pictures from one of my friends in the army. she is a single mom. when duty called, she answered, and she has been overseas since last spring.
the most amazing picture ever:
mommy, in full camouflage uniform, hair done, looking beautiful, holding little girl, both smiling, clearly elated to be together for a short while.
now THAT is, no joke, the definition of AMAZING. it made me think of the conversations of everyone here trying to reconcile gender identity + family + kicking ass in the workplace. she put it all in one photograph!
of course, this ass-kicking army mommy does NOT have it easy. she misses her little girl terribly. she works her ass off 12+ hours a day to keep the time flying by until she can go home, and last i heard she was the only female in her unit. but she commands respect in uniform and in civilian clothes. and she can still rock a cute outfit for a night out. i am very proud to call her friend.
just some thoughts to put out there... relevant to the general line of discussion around here lately.
Posted by: leigh | December 30, 2008 1:16 AM
The fact that we have to keep discussing your choice (or any other woman's choice) of dress, is very distressing to me. The fact of the matter is that it should not matter. Either way. If, like yourself or me, one enjoys fashion and heels we are not serious scientists. If we don't, we're dikes. As the great Zuska posted the last time this came up, its a moving target.
I, for one, have attempted to not be the pretty one. It was pretty damn hard. Not matter how much I "dressed down", I was still funky. Plus, since I've been told I resemble Penelope Cruz (though I much prefer the Ashiyara Rai comparison), it is sorta hard to not be the pretty one. We need women like yourself just as much as we need the Zuska's, ScienceWoman's, JaneB's, GwB and the me's. Can we realize women are freakin diverse already? We're individuals, with a variety of interests and dreams. The only way to achieve true equality is by being ourselves, proud of it and demanding we be judged on are abilities and nothing else.
Posted by: ScientistMother | December 30, 2008 1:34 AM
I completely agree, ScientistMother. However, the fact is that it keeps coming up and I had a feeling we would eventually have to discuss it here in my new home.
It was an issue when I was a girl and it was an issue when I was an adult. I love the JaneBs, ScienceWomen, Zuskas, and ScientistMothers of the blogosphere and think we each have something to contribute.
Someone sent me a link to this the other day. There was a lot about it I identified with. An awful lot.
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | December 30, 2008 1:41 AM
I just read the article. I think there is alot that many woman can identify with in there. As I was reading, I just kept thinking we're damned no matter what. The large breasted woman in made to feel like she is just a sex-object, while the small breasted woman is made to feel like she's not even worth looking at. That article brought back some horrible high school memories, centred around being referred to as a carpenters dream. Why teachers never did anything about it, I will never understand, but those comments have had lasting effects.
Posted by: ScientistMother | December 30, 2008 2:06 AM
While a portion of my worship comes from your valuable fashion advice, this, right here, is the source of my real devotion, and why I remain your loyal follower.
Posted by: PostDoc | December 30, 2008 2:21 AM
Hi,
I fully agree with ScientistMother. I like dressing up, I just as well sometimes not dress up and go to work in jeans and sweater (never crocks, they are NONONO).
On the other hand, my partner takes much care in shaving oven enough to not look shabby. He also likes dressing nice in expensive (I sometimes think, too expensive), he likes buying shoes (more than me). Most men care about their exterior, and I do not believe they do so to gain more sexual attention.
We all, no matter what gender, like to dress nice to express something to the people who surround us: colleagues, partners, clients. The actual thing we want to express may be different: being serious and respected, being authoritative, rich, famous, radical, anti, protesting, religious whathaveyou. Some, indeed, may dress to look sexy (and if that is what they want and intend, fine with me).
And I think, the current discussion here and on other blogs is about (ab)using the people who dress to look sexy and extrapolate to all other people (mostly women), and then making up an argument that is not really one.
Isis, I adore your shoes (and your blog), and everytime I read your blog I wish I would be rich enough to buy more high heels. Until then, I leave it to my partner to buy wonderful shoes.
Posted by: fia | December 30, 2008 6:52 AM
I not going to add anything here. I just want to point out that your link to PalMD in the sentence "PalMD chimes in with a big old pat on the back for women scientists here." points to the wrong site.
Posted by: Danimal | December 30, 2008 7:42 AM
Your personal ornamentation choices, whether tattoos, Naughty Monkey shoes, braids, hair dye, skirts, Crocs, jeans, earrings, or neckties, are exactly that. Personal. Ornamentation. Choices. Ornamentation doesn't even have to "mean" anything in the broader sense. I realize that such conversations are important, and that readers of Dr. Isis' blog deserve to have the opportunity to express their diverse thoughts and experiences, as I am now doing. However, it is also somewhat depressing to me, a (relatively) ancient female scientist and educator, that such conversations and concerns are still necessary and relevant. Just as it is depressing to me that one of the things that young female professional school students desire (apparently) to discuss with their female professors during prolonged lab sessions, is their excitement at the prospect of receiving breast augmentation surgery as a graduation gift. Worthy of a big left-alone-all-day Labrador retriever *sighhhhh*.
I don't want to project too much on the inner lives of men, since I'm not one, but it doesn't seem to me that most of them, at least in academia, need to have such conversations about personal ornamentation choices. I am asked about such things on a daily basis at work, by male and female colleagues and students, and much of the time it annoys the crap out of me. I also don't believe that men worry about whether their heterosexual female or homosexual male colleagues are staring at or talking to their penises, rather than looking them in the eyes. Many women still have to deal with such concerns about their own bodies, unfortunately, and this takes away from the important work of science and education.
As an aside, I'm glad I became aware of Twisty's blog through this one. I don't agree with everything she writes, of course, but it's a very interesting read. She's an inhabitant of the same part of the country as am I, and a sister equestrian to boot. My disagreement with the radical feminist viewpoint is similar to my main problem with hardline atheists: their automatic and vehement dismissal of many potential friends and allies, because they are perceived as "tools" of the patriarchy/theocracy. I'm simply not willing to dismiss or criticize other women because they chose to have children, or other people because they attend church or temple or mosque.
Posted by: Barn Owl | December 30, 2008 8:21 AM
Shoot! Pal's link is fixed! Apparently I only
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | December 30, 2008 10:22 AM
That article...ugh. I was 5 feet tall, 95 pounds and had a D-cup at age 11. I was harassed weekly when I walked to piano lessons, by men old enough to be my father. I didn't really even understand what they were saying, just that there was something horrific and wrong about me. As an adult (sort of adult, I guess), I've learned to rock my lovely curves in a mostly tasteful way. I still get oogled and harassed on occasion, but for the most part I see it as someone else who is horrific and wrong, not me.
Posted by: eela | December 30, 2008 10:32 AM
I think of clothing choices as complicated. While I can certainly see healthy aspects to Barn Owl's attitude ("Personal. Ornamentation. Choices."), I also believe that clothing can be part of an intricately complex network of nonverbal communications (which frequently occur under our conscious radars). As such, I view the choice of what I wear to be a quasi-political decision (for reference, I also consider what I eat, how I get to work, and how I express my relationships to be quasi-political decisions).
For those that consider viewing everything as political all the time as overwhelming and pointless, all I can say is that the most I would expect out of another person is to consider some of these issues, some of the time (if for no other reason than to reminds ourselves how many assumptions we all tend to make... which is a good thing for scientists to remember, to be sure). It is clear to me that The Amazing Dr. Isis does this consistently.
Most Glorious Goddess Isis- I may be sadly, sadly mistaken about some things, but not particularly in that respect... I am glad to point out I did not adaquetely emphasize that I recognize Dr. Isis is most thoughtful in pondering how she executes the role she models.
Furthermore, I fully agree with you that the people who control the gates and don't want to let anyone in to their ScienceClub(nogirlsallowed!!!!!) will not be changed by your wardrobe choices.
But the problem of "the patriarchy", if we are going to be honest about it, is not solely a problem of a few stuffy old academic scientists who don't want to hire people who aren't clones of them (although they are a particularly annoying branch of the patriarchy, to be sure).
The F-word article link you supplied was truly excellent, and does a nice job describing how the sexism wasn't limited to men.
I find it interesting that almost every story about girls in high school includes some description of "The bitchy, popular clique of girls... [who spent their time] wearing a truly hideous amount of make-up to school and making other girls' lives hell.". I feel like all the (allegedly) grown-up women need to sit through the assembly seen in Mean Girls, where every single girl felt personally victimized by the other girls at some point.
In a perfect world, we can all cheerfully threaten defenestration of each other's (clearly flawed) footwear selections with reckless abandon.*
In the world of science we live in, reminding people that you can do awesome science while looking as sexy as you please is a Good Thing.
However, in the world of gender-conditioning we live in, sending the message that women may be considered "not good enough" because they are not attractive enough is a Bad Thing. Dr. Isis, I am quite sure this would never be your intent. I am equally sure that few see themselves as being part of the "bitchy popular cliques"... yet somehow most of us end up feeling, to some degree or another, victimized. Or defensive about our choices (be they about clothing or babies). Or unhappy with how we look.
*Even in an imperfect blogospheric world where there is a muturally recognized common goal and relative "safe space", cheerful defenestration is an option
Posted by: Becca | December 30, 2008 3:55 PM
Ok, this is my first time commenting on your blog, and it's a little disjointed, so I apologize.
I just read the article you provided a link to. I am really struck by how horribly the author was treated, based solely on her womanly appearance. That type of abusive directed towards anyone, for any reason, is so destructive, and I applaud her for sharing her story. As an overweight girl lacking even a pretty face, I cannot imagine being taunted or given unwanted attention due to being beautiful or sexually attractive to my labmates, professors, or even strangers. Literally, I cannot wrap my mind around it. Sometimes I think they all view me as asexual, actually, or at least matronly. (Luckily my husband thinks differently!)
I have always been the smart girl with a funny personality. Part of this is how I dress, for comfort and practicality (don't wear anything to lab you don't want to get mouse pee on!). In fact, I have noticed that every time I have a committee meeting (which I obviously dress professionally for), my all-male committee will go out of their way to compliment my attire. I honestly don't think they mean anything creepy about it, but it is weird for me to think that on any other day my outfit would escape their commentary.
However, a large part of it is how I look. I look average, or "worse" than average, on most scales of attractiveness. This means I do not even register with most people who have only seen me or briefly spoken to me. I am not memorable-looking in any way. It is almost always by my actions and interactions that people remember me- asking questions in class, answering questions after a presentation, adding commentary in lab meeting or journal club, teaching someone a technique, etc. And as far as I can tell, women and men are the same in judging my appearance to be "forgettable".
(As an aside, this has a few major perks. One was that I was never perceived as a threat of any sort to other girls/women growing up, so I had lots of friends, including the popular girls. Another was that it was very easy and comfortable to be friends with guys, because we always bonded on the brother-sister level. But I digress...)
Anyway, reading that article and the subsequent comments here where other women who developed early or are sexually attractive shared similar complaints, I am wondering if perhaps things are worse than I thought, i.e., that there are multiple levels of discrimination against women in society as a whole, based on appearances. It seems like attractive women get noticed for all the wrong reasons, and other women like me just don't even show up on male radar. Sometimes I get very jealous of the pretty graduate students who are at least memorable when they give seminars, but now I see being attractive comes with its own problems. I am continually frustrated by being overlooked in favor of not only male students, but more attractive female students, but after reading that article, I am now also afraid to draw attention to myself! How do I get over the way I'm perceived when that has such a large stake in how I'm treated??
Posted by: mousegirl | December 30, 2008 4:31 PM
I also believe that clothing can be part of an intricately complex network of nonverbal communications
I agree with you up to a point, Becca, and my mantra of Personal. Ornamentation. Choices. is of course overly simplistic. However, the other extreme, i.e. assigning complicated psychological and sociopolitical symbolism or significance to each and every personal choice, can be both tiring and tiresome. We can't always know why others make the personal ornamentation choices that they do, and I would argue that most of the time, we don't need to. IMO, it's not a very compelling topic of conversation or speculation.
Most of my friends who have young children allow them, within reason and safety of course, to choose their outfits for daycare or school. It's an expression of individual choice and autonomy, and very often has no rhyme or reason beyond the fact that the kid wants to wear a pink shirt and a purple skirt with turquoise shoes that day. My own clothing choices very often are no more sophisticated than that, and as I mentioned earlier, I'm ancient. So kick me out of the Tribe of Fashion; I'm not bothered.
The one sociopolitical aspect of personal ornamentation choices that does give me pause (quite frequently), is the impact that they have on others. Twisty brings this up in her blog, not necessarily in the context of clothing or other manifestations of personal ornamentation, but rather wrt the laptop you're using, or the food you consume. I used to wear funky polish on my toenails, because I wanted my feet to look good for yoga class and other barefoot adventures. Then I discovered that effectively, there are no non-toxic, environmentally-friendly, and truly-safe-for-humans brands of nail polish available. Moreover, many of the people who work in nail salons (not that I ever went to them) are young immigrant women of reproductive age, and high-end salon polishes are the worst, in terms of toxicity. Nail polish is certainly not everyone's choice of (self)righteous battle, and I'm sure that I do many things that others find objectionable (eating meat, for example) or view as playing into the hands of the patriarchy (driving a car). I think it's difficult for those of us in the developed world to lead low-impact lifestyles that are entirely sociopolitically and environmentally just.
Posted by: Barn Owl | December 30, 2008 6:11 PM
How do I get over the way I'm perceived when that has such a large stake in how I'm treated??
This is by no means a solution to the overall problem of appearances mattering more than they should, but I try to use it as motivation to make my science so good that no one will care what I'm wearing or look like. I don't know that I've ever reached that level, or if I ever will. But I try to let it spur me to greatness, and even if I fail on the stop-looking-at-my-boobs-plz front, I'll at least be a better scientist.
Posted by: eela | December 30, 2008 7:06 PM
ping
Posted by: juniorprof | December 30, 2008 7:16 PM
This is by no means a solution to the overall problem of appearances mattering more than they should, but I try to use it as motivation to make my science so good that no one will care what I'm wearing or look like.
If your appearance matters to you, you should do whatever you want to please your own preferences. Who cares what other people think? Its what you think about yourself that matters and it would be a crying shame if the pleasure of dressing was stolen from anyone due to their expectations of the perceptions of others.
Posted by: juniorprof | December 30, 2008 7:19 PM
Seriously, Doc, those are some awesome shoes, but how do you teach in them?
My teaching shoes are Brooks, and you can see them in all their glory at
http://woodsrules.blogspot.com/2008/12/politics-of-shoes.html.
But I warn you, if you didn't like the Crocs, you probably won't be any happier with these.
Posted by: Virginia S. Wood, Psy.D. | December 30, 2008 7:19 PM
(Raises hand.) Guilty as charged, Your Honor.
Apply any attitude adjustment indicated, Ladies, but when someone puts extra effort into a project (be it a restored car, a new house, learning a new piece of music, or "only" appearance) I was taught to pay appropriate respect and recognition.
And, yes, this applies equally for the XY as the XX set. Admittedly the guys don't often show up in the equivalent of a to-die-for sari, but now and then they manage to escape from the jeans-and-polo-shirt uniform.
If I ever make mousegirl or anyone of like mind uncomfortable by admiring a new hairdo or whatever, I promise to take correction to heart -- but I don't read minds.
Posted by: D. C. Sessions | December 30, 2008 10:38 PM
D.C. Sessions, I did not intend to make any male faculty feel bad for paying a female student a compliment on her committee meeting attire. I know, at least in the case of my committee, that these comments are made out of kindness, politeness, and probably are intended to put me at ease before the start of my meeting. I am not offended or weirded out by said comments, and I appreciate my committee noticing the effort I put into my appearance on those days.
When I said "...it is weird for me to think that on any other day my outfit would escape their commentary", I was just pointing out that ordinarily my appearance does not register with people at all. For me, I only get noticed when I am making an effort to look differently than I normally do. That is all I was pointing out, because it appears my experience is in direct contrast to that of other women, who receive regular (and frequently undesired) commentary from others on their appearance. Some of us are just naturally wallflowers, I guess.
eela, the science is coming along nicely. I guess my concerns are more for networking at conferences, etc., where I, in person, may be forgettable to future advisors, job contacts, etc. I do not want to resort to looking or acting like anyone but myself in order to network effectively. But if the science is outstanding, that will trump everything I guess, so your point is well-taken, thank you. :)
Posted by: mousegirl | December 31, 2008 1:33 PM
I guess my concerns are more for networking at conferences, etc., where I, in person, may be forgettable to future advisors, job contacts, etc.
You cannot think about it like that! Anyone, at any given time is completely forgettable and it has nothing to do with them. Be confident in your abilities (you seem to be confident that your science is great) and step forward with your strengths.
Posted by: juniorprof | December 31, 2008 4:05 PM
I consider myself to be very fashion challenged (to be politically correct). I don't want to try and figure it out because I am quite sure that I can't and feel that trying to do that and doing it badly is worse than not doing it at all.
I wear the same thing every day; jeans, a flannel shirt, a brown sweater with hiking boots. Trying to figure out something different is stressful and difficult for me, not something I get the slightest bit of enjoyment out of. Because it is so hard for me to notice and understand what people are wearing, it is hard for me to comment on it without being afraid of saying something foolish or offensive. I have some amount of prosopagnosia too, and until I know someone pretty well it is hard for me to read their body language.
I can't tell if something looks "good" or not. That is not something I know how to figure out. I don't remember or even notice what other people wear and when I was married sometimes (often) I wouldn't even notice when my wife (now ex) got her hair cut. Even after she pointed it out to me I would be unable to remember what it was like earlier that day or the day before. This bothered her a great deal. But once when one of her patients committed suicide, I could hear something was wrong when she entered the apartment, through a locked door and down a flight of stairs, and opened the door at the top of the stairs before she could and was there to comfort her as she finally lost it and burst into tears. Being able to read her affect like that bothered her a great deal too. It isn't that I wasn't able to "notice" her; I wasn't able to notice what she was wearing or what her hair was like.
Posted by: daedalus2u | December 31, 2008 8:40 PM