First and foremost, my sincerest thanks to PhysioProf of the DrugMonkey blog for answering last week's "Ask Dr. Isis." As a long time stalker fan of the DrugMonkey blog, I knew he was the perfect person to answer the reader's question and to facilitate the discussion. Indeed, 71 comments later, it seems as though you all had a number of things to add to PhysioProf's advice. In fact, it seems that the last post sparked an interest in career paths and professionalism. At the end of last week Dr. Isis received the following letter from JLK of Pieces of Me:
Dear Dr. Isis, I am intrigued by the post that CPP responded to regarding post-doc positions, and I can see how a lot of it relates to prospective grad students as well. But I am wondering what you (or CPP for that matter) would say about grad students. What are YOU looking for in a grad applicant? I don't know if physiology requires the personal statement (I'm guessing yeah) but as far as the whole application package goes - who is your ideal grad student? How do they get it across to you? If an applicant is completely enamored with your work even if you're not a rockstar scientist, how can they let you know that without seeming like they're just blowing smoke? Of course, it's too late for me as my application process is over, but I'm very interested to know what lights a professor's fire when they read over applications. Grades and test scores don't tell the whole story......so what pieces are necessary to excite a professor about a grad student? With Unceasing Adoration, - JLKFirst, it appears that JLK has learned the most important rule when writing to the domestic and laboratory goddess -- if you feed my incredible narcissism ("With Unceasing Adoration") you are certain to pique my interest. After reading JLK's letter and seeing the success of PhysioProf's post, I started wondering if any other people I admire would be willing to answer your letters. Not to fret, my little lambs, I will continue to answer your letters myself in the future. However, given what I estimated would be the popularity of this topic, I couldn't pass up the opportunity to potentially have this letter answered by one of my scientific heroes. With that, I sent composed an introductory email, sent JLK's letter to Dr. Irving Zucker and crossed my fingers.
Figure 1: An artist's rendition of Irving Zucker, as imagined by Dr. Isis. Dr. Zucker is a renowned cardiovascular physiologist, the Theodore F. Hubbard Professor of Cardiovascular Research and Chairperson of the Department of Cellular and Integrative Physiology at the University of Nebraska Medical Center, and the current president of the American Physiological Society
The next day, Dr. Isis arose from goddess-slumber and found a response in her email box. It's amazing and I am excited to share it with you. Before I do, allow me to share with you a piece of Dr. Zucker's biography in order to demonstrate why I believe he is the perfect person to answer JLK's letter (aside from the opportunity it gave me to have a geek moment when I received his response):
Zucker has authored 137 original papers, 35 reviews, book chapters and editorials, has edited one text on the reflex control of the circulation and has published close to 200 abstracts. Zucker's laboratory has been continuously funded by NIH, The American Heart Association and industry since 1975. This included a MERIT Award from the NHLBI from 1992-2002 and a PPG from 1999 to the present. Zucker has supervised 10 graduate students, 16 postdoctoral fellows, 20 medical students and 16 undergraduate students.
Dr. Zucker's answer is behind the cut.
Dear Isis:
First, thanks very much for the work you are doing on the blog. Clearly,
advice from knowledgeable people is needed. I am happy to respond to JLK
concerning grad student attributes.Most applicants to graduate school (whatever the discipline) are open to
many areas of potential investigation. It is rare to find an applicant who
has really thought through an area of research that he/she wishes to engage
in. Having said that, if an applicant contacts a professor with some
knowledge of his/her research and provides some ideas (even if they are
superficial) concerning future research it is difficult for the prof. not
to sit up and take notice. It signals thought and motivation. In my
experience, the most successful students are those who have already
investigated potential areas of research and formulated some ideas, show
enthusiasm and motivation and have some evidence that they are willing to
work hard. Also good communication skills are important. Now, how does one
separate those students that "are just blowing smoke" from the genuine and
committed students? I believe there is no substitute for a personal
interview, either face to face or by phone. The student should be serious
but not aloof. He/she should can the flowery language and be direct. Show
some depth in your discussion of research ideas. This is what impresses
most professors.Finally, science is all about ideas. Students must not be passive. They
must have a daily interaction with their mentor. In many ways, I derive
more from my students and fellows then they get from me. Without this type
of interaction, we would not progress and it would not be very much fun.
Irving H. Zucker, Ph.D.
Theodore F. Hubbard Professor
of Cardiovascular Research
and Chairman, Department of Cellular and Integrative Physiology
President, American Physiological Society
I think Dr. Zucker's answer highlights the fundamental difference between applying for undergraduate and graduate education. Admitting undergraduates is like fishing with a fishing net -- you cast out, grab a couple thousand, and hope you pulled in something great. Admitting graduate students is like casting with a fishing pole -- you pull them in one at a time and are much pickier about what you keep.
That being said, a student who enthusiastic and thoughtfully contacts a professor before applying for admission may catch that professor's eye and will be much more memorable than a paper application.
Dr. Zucker's answer captures the essence of why I love science -- I love to interact with people who are excited about science and interested in critically evaluating work, regardless of the level of their education. You don't always have to be right (and you probably won't be very early on), but you do have to be thinking. A student who is motivated to ask questions is an attractive graduate candidate.
Education & Careers
Life Science
Comments
...
I do not think I have ever been more eager to click through to 'the rest of the story' on a blog post before.
Dr Zucker noted in his reply:
That says as much about the man and the 'teacher' as anything else. That is always a good trait for those who 'teach' in any sense of the word. From parenting, to new co-workers, to students in a hospital lab . . .the learning most definitely can/should go both ways.
...tom...
.
Posted by: ...tom... | January 11, 2009 6:04 PM
Dr. Zucker - You are the bomb (which is clearly much better than Superman in my book). This is exactly what I tell my students. Hear hear. Thanks for everything you do as a mentor - we need more people like you.
For those who are missing out on the fun over at FSPs place, head on over to get a feel for "what not to do" in writing your "statement of purpose" for grad school applications. Here's a hint: don't mention childhood walks on the beach, provide quotes from John Lennon, or talk about your hawtness (cough, Candid, cough).
Always contact profs first about working with them. My advisor used to say 'why do these applicants inform the grad office staff that they would like to work with me before letting me know that they would like to work with me?!?' All it takes is a short email from a potential student - include current college and major, what research interests you, and ask if the prof has any openings. If it's coherent and not obnoxious, chances are the potential advisor will respond.
And please don't be intimidated by someone of Dr. Zucker's stature - the dude's amazing. If you have some hot sciency ideas, believe me, the Dr. Zucker's of the world WANT to work with you! go for it.
Posted by: jc | January 11, 2009 7:16 PM
And he mentions the most important thing about what we do - having fun.
"Good science consists largely of play disguised as work" E.O. Wilson
Posted by: JaneB | January 11, 2009 7:26 PM
Thank you so much for this post. (And thanks JLK for prompting it!)
It's getting around the time to figuring out what I actually want to do with myself post-graduation and help like this is invaluable.
Is it ever too early to contact potential advisors? I'm about to start my second semester of junior year and I wasn't really planning on sending emails until maybe August-september. This break (yes I'm still on winter break- woo-hoo!) I've spent some time poking around looking at programs.. and it's very overwhelming.
Posted by: Eugenie | January 11, 2009 8:00 PM
It's not a new sentiment:
I I learned much from my teachers
more than that did I learn from my colleagues
but most of all from my students
Yehudah HaNasi (1800+ years ago.)
Posted by: D. C. Sessions | January 11, 2009 8:03 PM
"Good science consists largely of play disguised as work" E.O. Wilson
Yes! +eleventy!
Also, science = a way of learning. So obviously science = play (anyone who has trouble with the learning = play connection has spent too much time in school and not enough with munchkins).
I wonder about the effort exerted to disguise it though. And whether it wouldn't be better spent blogging.
/subversive
Posted by: Becca | January 11, 2009 9:23 PM
Hey Eugenie! I think waiting until later in the semester/summer is probably a better idea, if their application deadlines are in the spring. I wouldn't contact people seriously more than a year before you plan to apply. I think I began contact people just several months before the formal application deadline.
In the meantime, use this time to start investigating the work potential mentors are doing and to narrow down your choices for where you might apply.
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | January 11, 2009 9:56 PM
I will more then likely procrastinate as long as I can before I contact anybody.. I don't want to come off as a total nitwit. So it's good to hear that I can comfortably wait before I start my shenanigans.
Posted by: Eugenie | January 11, 2009 10:04 PM
Yay! I CAN POST TO ISIS AGAIN! Dr. Isis, thank you for your intervention!
I love this post! All I've thought about for months and months has been my return to school. I'm obviously not in the same situation as JLK. The more I read you and DM, however, the clearer it becomes to me that a crazy but unrelentingly thoughtful examination of your research interests, even when you are a beginning-beginning-beginner, and the courage to courteously network even when you're convinced that you'll be struck by lightning before you even open your mouth are key to getting trained to do the science you want to do. Not to mention earning a living with it.
Posted by: Juniper Shoemaker | January 11, 2009 10:44 PM
Juniper, let me make clear that it is entirely possible to make it in science by blundering along blindly and doing just about everything wrongz. I'm living proof. However it is my belief that many of the things that I learned the hard way would make things a little easier if understood earlier in the career process...
Posted by: DrugMonkey | January 12, 2009 12:05 AM
Thank you, Dr. Isis, for not only answering my email but also bringing in some big guns in order to do it.
Obviously I won't have any hardcore info to share until after I get decisions back, but I can say that I only did it the "right" way once, out of a final 8 applications.
Most of the schools I applied to had multiple faculty members I would be perfectly happy to work with (upwards of 5 or 6 in some cases), and the only person I emailed to see if they were accepting grad students was my 1st choice prof.
I know, I know. But I honest to god didn't have the time to read through 5+ articles of every single faculty member before emailing them, so I stuck with the ones I knew inside and out.
In one case, however, I think I knocked the ball out of the park completely by chance. A new professor at one of my top choice schools (not one of the Ivys), had JUST been added to the faculty page as I was deciding whether or not to continue my application for this program. The main faculty member I had wanted to work with had just informed me that she was not taking any new grad students, and no one else's research interests really aligned with mine.
Anyway, so I emailed Brand New Professor who had just earned her PhD from #1 Program in the World, attached a copy of my CV, and briefly explained why I was totally into one of her research ideas. I also mentioned that I was aware that very few people were pursuing this line of research, and asked if she could elaborate on how she planned to attack it though I knew she couldn't get into a lot of detail. She replied and said that she didn't feel comfortable getting too much into it because "it isn't fair to less-savvy applicants", that she was looking forward to reviewing my packet, and that after decisions were made she would love to talk to me in further detail about the project.
Not only am I super excited at the prospect of working with her (she can't possibly be much older than I am and is incredibly talented), but I really felt like I had made a favorable impression. It's the one application that I actually feel really confident about.
But throughout the process I got so much contradictory information - books that told me never to contact potential faculty advisors, grad students who told me that applications often get thrown out if the faculty members have never seen your name, and other sources who told me that while it could help, it also might not matter.
I had a really hard time getting over the intimidation factor. I could read all of their research, but what if I asked a question that was addressed in one of their resource articles?? Should I have read all of those too? It just seemed like a lot of information to absorb in a short period at the risk of sounding like an idiot.
Luckily, by sending the emails that I DID send, I discovered that several of the rockstars I was really itching to work with were retiring for next year, eliminating one entire school from my list of prospects, and preventing me from looking like an idiot with one of the Ivy schools.
Hmmm.....I think I have my next "Ask Dr. Isis" question......
Posted by: JLK | January 12, 2009 1:57 AM
In the meantime, use this time to start investigating the work potential mentors are doing and to narrow down your choices for where you might apply.
I'm in the same situation as Eugenie and all of this advice has been super helpful. I was wondering if you had anything to say about how one would go about looking for potential mentors. I know that I should start to do this soon, but every time I think about it I feel completely lost.
Posted by: LostMarbles | January 12, 2009 10:20 AM
I had a really hard time getting over the intimidation factor. I could read all of their research, but what if I asked a question that was addressed in one of their resource articles??
You should respond how everyone should respond. With a simple but honest, "I don't know."
There's not much that gets people all annoyed than a bullsh*ting answer that quickly makes it obvious that you don't know what you're talking about.
A person who knows what they don't know can correct that deficiency. A person who thinks they know something but is mistaken, can't.
Posted by: Nat | January 12, 2009 10:35 AM
I don't know what FSP is. Could someone please provide a link? I just sent out 3 applications for graduate school and have already been rejected by one and am ulceratively worried about the other 2. I mean, if I don't get in to grad school this year it'll be OK because next year my application will just be even stronger (e.g., will have time to take the CMB GRE, and have some papers out finally [working with germ-free mice makes for slow research]). But still, this kind of thing has me losing sleep. So thanks for the advice, it kinda helps, you know, to know that I'm not the only one in this boat.
I wrote what my mentorboss thought was a great personal statement and research statement, but I worry that it won't help me because it's tone is kind of casual (I talked about wanting bizarre results and a lot about math [because biology+math+computers=eleventyfucktillionawesomeness!, which I realize is often like kryptonite to biologists' Superman). Either way, it'll work out. My much better half, who is in humanities, decided to wait another year to apply to grad school anyway and I worry about trapping her in whatever city I get into school in.
Dr. Isis, I think you warrant a Toaster cartoon.
Posted by: Toaster | January 12, 2009 1:29 PM
Lostmarbles and JLK,
No prof expects you to read or understand any of the nitty gritty of their work.
Here's what I suggest for finding graduate mentors. Most students focus geographically rather than by advisor when looking at grad school degrees.
My students are scared to leave the state. ok, fine, for the geographically challenged: at other local univs, go through the faculty lists and skim their lists of pubs or if they have a webpage about their research interests, go through them. Ask yourself: is this cool? would I enjoy doing this? does this project kick the wind up my skirt? Don't ask yourself: is this hard? do I need to be super super smart for this? Do this for every department faculty list and keep your own short list of potential advisors going with a brief summary of their work.
I didn't do the geographic route, so this is for the non-geographically-challenged: I read papers in a journal field that I was interested in. It's a lower tier journal, so as an undergrad, I could understand the gist of many papers. There were people who consistently published in the journal and names from the references list that I would see over and over again. I wrote those people down and then started looking up their schools and depts.
Once you've identified people whose work rocks your socks, then you start contacting them about your interests sometime in Sept/Oct (if grad deadlines are the standard Jan for applications). The profs usually let you know up front if they can take new students. If they are interested, they will email you back asking for a time to talk or asking for further info. Once the potential advisor contacts the student, then the student should go read a good chunk of the papers that the prof has done JUST TO BE FAMILIAR. Don't think you'll be tested on it. Take some brief notes about the papers - if the only part you understand is the abstract, then don't feel stupid. That's what a graduate education is for - you'll be able to understand all that gobblydegook AFTER you get another degree.
And when you are talking with the potential advisor, don't bullshit. I encourage my students to think big and dream big (that whole shoot for the moon so at least you land among the stars saying), but don't jump the shark. Graduate learning is a long hard slow process, and undergrads are anxious to skip all the steps in between getting the undergrad degree and curing cancer.
Dr Jekyll and Mrs Hyde has a wonderful series of posts about grad school that I pass on to my undergrads.
Posted by: jc | January 12, 2009 1:39 PM
Toaster -
click 'jc' - it will take you to FemaleScienceProfessor. She's a part of Isis's adoration links on the left. Hell, we all heart FSP!
She posted a SOP contest for "what not to do" and she's posting the horrible horrible, damn horrible, submissions.
I'll ask Isis to post some links at the top through her email. Whenever I try to do links in this crazy system, it borks.
Posted by: jc | January 12, 2009 1:45 PM
biology+math+computers=eleventyfucktillionawesomeness!
Hell. Yes.
Ask yourself: is this cool? would I enjoy doing this? does this project kick the wind up my skirt?
What happens if everything I come across does this? My nightmare is being unable to pinpoint something down that would satisfy all areas of my brain/soul. I read journals for fun already and more often then not I think "Damn! This is awesome! I want to do this!". I've run myself ragged trying to connect everything together.
Posted by: Eugenie | January 12, 2009 3:08 PM
Eugenie, take a leaf from engineers' books:
If nothing else works, write an important-looking differential equation that no one else can understand and claim that it works.
I know what you mean about thinking everything is cool. I get PLoS Pathogens and PLoS CompBiol feeds and regularly troll PubMed. I've got a stack of papers for what I'm working on, a stack of papers on the pharmacokinetics of asthma drugs and eosinophilic infiltration of the airway epithelia, then a wholenother stack of papers on immunology and the mathematical modeling thereof. There's so much to learn, and not enough time.
I have found flow charts to be very useful for connecting stuff together. The papers I read are often covered in flow chart doodles.
Posted by: Toaster | January 12, 2009 3:37 PM
For Toaster et al. needing help with their "statements of purpose", these are from FemaleScienceProf's advice and contest:
http://science-professor.blogspot.com/2008/01/my-grad-school-application-essay.html
http://science-professor.blogspot.com/2008/12/statement-of-purpose-essay-contest_08.html
http://science-professor.blogspot.com/2008/12/sop-contest-entry-1.html
http://science-professor.blogspot.com/2008/12/more-sop.html
http://science-professor.blogspot.com/2008/12/yet-more-sops.html
http://science-professor.blogspot.com/2008/12/sop-fun-continued.html
the absolute most hilarious submission of all:
http://candidengineer.blogspot.com/2008/12/on-why-you-want-to-have-me.html
Posted by: jc | January 13, 2009 4:41 PM
Jesus, reading these comments had me freaking out all day about everything I did wrong looking for and applying to grad schools. Then I got home and opened a letter from SUNY saying I had one of their top applications.
So, apparently you can do a ton of shit wrong and still look pretty damn good.
Posted by: Chad | January 13, 2009 11:57 PM
I've been reading a lot of advice lately, because I just applied to graduate school. It's amazing how contradictory it can be. For example, this comment from JC, "Always contact profs first about working with them. My advisor used to say 'why do these applicants inform the grad office staff that they would like to work with me before letting me know that they would like to work with me?!?'" is interesting, given that another advice for graduates site I've read said pretty much the opposite -- it's more or less spam, so don't do it.
Anyhow, I did in fact mention my childhood in my personal statement. Like Chad, I apparently didn't make a fatal mistake, as my first choice school just asked me to interview.
One thing I would be interested to know: once the decision is make to interview a candidate, do application materials still play a role in the final decision, or is it mostly based on the results of the interview?
Posted by: Amy | January 14, 2009 2:57 PM
Amy and Chad, I did the whole dreadful SOP thing myself and cringed when I read FSPs pages. A student of mine sent me her SOP and I immediately directed her to FSPs pages and she popped out a fantastic revision of her SOP. Drugmonkey is also living proof that 'doing it wrongz' is still survivable, but you really want to stand out in a good way and not be 'another one of those Albert Einstein quotin' students' :)
With this economy, lots of profs just don't have the money to support students like in the past. I was in a lab with 15 other students at one point, all supported by part-time teaching and TA contracts. Now, this isn't the case. Schools are cutting TAs and cutting off the loose change in depts that were sometimes used for student support. Also, profs are being asked/told/forced to teach more courses because schools are canning adjuncts. It's a strange time, and there's variation across schools and science depts. Vet schools also have a different system of applying and interviewing.
I think now more than ever you have to think a few steps ahead. By contacting the prof up front to ask if s/he is taking anyone, it lets the prof know about an interested student and there's plenty of time to make arrangements or write grants, get funding, etc. I don't know many profs who would take a student that s/he couldn't financially support with TAs or research money.
Amy, the application materials are really about entrance into the grad school. take the GRE, write the SOP, send in the transcripts, etc. The interview is about the potential relationship you'll have with your mentor - s/he may decide not to take you on based on the interview. One guy recently interviewed in my lab and completely tanked. He irritated everyone and was condescending to the other students. The relationship with your advisor is critical for success in grad school. You are also interviewing the prof too! So, the application materials get your foot in the door - it's your job to shine off paper. good luck.
Posted by: jc | January 14, 2009 5:42 PM
I think we must take DrugMonkey's modesty with a shakerful of salt. Not long after his response to my comment-- which made me laugh-- he posted this:
Yeah. I'm sure no one cares that one has done "everything wrongz" when one is a boy prodigy . . .
Just kidding, just kidding! DrugMonkey is awesome. He is so awesome that I diligently read the blogs of certain other scientists who fervently despise him (and his fellow ruffian), to prevent my admiration of him from blinding me.* His original point is well taken. I'm not trying to be mean.
I really have to stop procrastinating, so that I can properly blog again. Google Reader is not helping me. It enables my blogging addiction, and now I have another vice.
*I do not do the same for Dr. Isis. Admiration of Dr. Isis could never blind the one with the wisdom to profess it.
Posted by: Juniper Shoemaker | January 16, 2009 3:53 AM
Like some of the other commenters, I am thankful that sometimes admissions offices and professors will have mercy on the mistakes Dr. Zucker warns against. I am also very glad that I went to visit professors and labs in person, as he suggests, and I think perhaps that served to undo what I did on my entrance essays...
I shall hereby refer my impossibly young, overachieving undergraduate students to Dr. Isis if they ask me such a question.
Posted by: Miss Outlier | January 17, 2009 1:35 AM
In my case, the best way to get into graduate school was to not go to graduate school. Not right away, anyway. Instead I went and spent 5 years as a research technician in my chosen field (though I chose that specific sub-field after having worked in it all that time...I didn't chose the job because it was in that specific sub-field). It was the best decision I ever made, career-wise, anyway.
For one thing, my undergraduate record was pretty crappy. I might have gotten into graduate school right out of undergrad, but I would not have been anyone's first choice, and I would have had to settle for whoever would take me, if anyone took me.
Second, it brought me into contact with faculty, both at the university I worked at and visitors. When the time came to send out applications, many of the potential advisors were people I'd met, and the ones that weren't I at least knew by reputation. I got to attend meetings, which provided opportunities to network and expand my horizons. A personal connection with a prospective advisor, preferably before they even see an application, is probably the single most important thing you can do to get into grad school.
Third, after five years of actually doing research in the field, I could hold an honest-to-goodness science conversation, with ease, with any potential advisor about their work. Virtually no undergrads can do that. There's a certain fluency that only comes with time and familiarity, that no amount of studying can replace.
As I result, I went from a bottom-of-the-barrel applicant to (I think) a pretty choice find. And years of actually designing and conducting experiments, doing lit searches, analyzing data, etc. made me into a much better student than I would have otherwise been. I got more out of grad school, and grad school got more out of me.
All that said, it may not work out for everyone, and five years was probably a longer span than necessary, but there was a girl involved (now wife, incidentally) and a certain amount of inertia. But it worked for me...I'm sitting here 8 years later with a PhD and a job at the head of arguably the best industry research program in my field.
Posted by: Dr. Octoploid | January 19, 2009 12:20 AM