Female Science Professor has a couple of, per the usual, incredible posts up. Still, it was yesterday's post that really caught my eye.
In this post, our heroine FSP discusses the frequency with which she responds to student emails. The answer is, way more frequently than most. What is most intriguing about the post, however, is the comments section. In the comments one reader by the name of "GeoProf" remarks that she frequently receives student emails from people who refer to her as "Ms." or "Mrs." She politely corrects them that the proper way to address her is "Dr." or "Professor." Another commenter later asks why this reader would waste time educating each student in the conventions of academic titles. As I read this I realized that I knew exactly why GeoProf would dedicate time to such an endeavor and sighed quietly under the oppressive thumb of the white male scientific patriarchy
When I was a sophomore undergraduate, I took a statistics course. On the first day, the female faculty member teaching the course told us, "My name is Dr. Jane Statistician. It is appropriate to refer to me as 'Professor' or 'Dr. Statistician' and you may call me 'Jane.' Please do not call me 'Mrs. Statistician.'" I didn't entirely understand the meaning of her statement, except to think that it was odd that she should state so plainly her preference for how she wanted to be addressed, until after I had completed my own Ph.D. and was teaching an undergraduate-level course.
I was teaching this course with a male colleague who held a masters degree. Neither of us was explicit in outlining our educational paths with our students and we did not specifically state our preferences for what we wanted to be called. I found very quickly that, when they approached or contacted us, they frequently referred to us as "Ms. Isis" and "Dr. Other Guy" in spite of the fact that I was the one with the doctorate-level degree. I realized that he probably more closely matched what they expected of someone addressed as "Dr." -- he is an older, white man with graying hair, whereas I am a younger, hot shoe-wearing science diva. I have no doubt they were trying to be polite in addressing us as they did, and the female students were equally as guilty of this as the male students, but it reflects the fact that women (especially young women) are contrary to the preconceived notion of the academic scientist.
We occasionally get mail from our church addressed to "Dr. and Mrs. Isis" because, when the secretary entered the information into the mailing list, she must have simply glanced at the boxes we checked when we registered and assumed Mr. Isis was the one with the doctorate-level degree.
So, I can appreciate that many of us in the Ph.D. world try not to be overly pretentious about our honorifics (this seems to be much less of an issue in my interactions in the M.D. world where I don't think twice about correcting someone, but that's a topic for another post). However, the ability to say that having your academic achievements recognized in how you are addressed by your students is unimportant is a luxury that is only enjoyed by white male academics. This is because individuals are probably more likely to associate white male academics with particular educational achievements than women or minority academics.
So, what is the remedy? In society does it make me a pretentious ass if I correct the staff member at a small club the Isis family frequents when he refers to my doctorate degree-holding father-in-law as "Dr. Isis-in-Law" and me as "Mrs. Isis?" In academia is it a waste of time to lay claim to my academic achievements by correcting the staff member or student who emails me and refers to me as "Ms. Isis?"
These issues are more complicated than students being simply ignorant of naming and title conventions. They reflect what is regarded as "normal" in the ivory tower. A white male scientist may feel it is a waste of time to correct someone who calls him "Mr.," but that's because he has no prejudices to struggle against and no glass ceiling to press his face to. Each time I don't correct someone who calls me "Ms.," I wonder if I am reinforcing the stereotype and each time I do correct someone I wonder if I am going to be regarded as "bitchy."
And so I continue, feeling like I have earned my Ph.D. and yet I don't truly own the privilege of being referred to as "Dr. Isis."
Figure 2: One of Dr. Isis's favorite Ph.D.-holding science women, Dr. Kirsten Sanford. Dr. Isis saw Dr. Sanford speak at Experimental Biology last year and she was one of the folks who inspired Dr. Isis to give up her personal blog and start science-y blogging.
Education & Careers
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Comments
I know what you mean. I feel like such a bitch when I correct people for calling me Ms. But I agree, in some situations it's important and worth doing for the sake of countering the stereotyping of "doctors" and "professors". It's also a great way to assert myself when being patronised (usually by IT people, electricians or engineers) for being a girl.
Posted by: Sarah | January 12, 2009 4:06 AM
I completely agree that its worth correcting, and your attitude in all other ways is likely (or not depending on who you are) to remedy the idea of you as bitchy.
I doubt I'll ever face the problem of 'Dr' vs 'Mrs' though I'd like to, actually I'd like to face the 'Dr' part not the problem. But I often face a similar situation where I correct the idea that I am Mrs Insert-Husband's-Last-Name, because I kept my own name when I married.
Posted by: literarydeadkittens | January 12, 2009 4:25 AM
For me, it really depends on who is doing the talking. I don't usually correct people in non-professional situations, mostly because the I usually interact with assume "Dr." means an MD, and I don't want to be expected to give opinions about people's weird rashes. In professional situations, though, I try to gently remind people that I am a Ph.D.
Posted by: Peggy | January 12, 2009 4:56 AM
History notwithstanding (*), a PhD today is, effectively, a professional qualification. So it's absolutely right to nail colleagues and students about it at work. You must, you really must. You should nail them especially when wearing hot shoes, as most students need their minds broadening.
I'm male and white, so I obviously never need to, but if students address me incorrectly (whether in writing or conversation), what I normally do is say something like 'OK, I will give you [something small, say, a class], but think about what you've just said and tell me why I wouldn't give you [something big, say, a job].'
If you're lucky, they'll have made all sorts of other mistakes (punctuation in letters, coming to see you in the wrong place etc. etc.). That way you correct their improper use of your title along with a whole bunch of other things and I reckon it looks less bitchy-and-more-official than picking on just the one thing and nagging them about that.
And, without over-using it, don't lose withering bitchy scorn in your armoury. Depends on the student, obviously, but in an academic environment they should damn well respect you for your achievements and they should damn well show that respect. Forelock-tugging and lowered eyes may just about be enough...
On the other hand, since we don't live in 1860, it's a bit arsey to insist on 'Dr.' outside of work or - in my opinion - to use it inappropriately. One of my pet hates is people who have a PhD in, say, biochemistry and who now work in, say, banking and who insist on using their 'Dr.' title.
Actually, one of my pet hats is people who work in banking, but that's a whole different kettle of fish.
Finally, on the club thing, if you correct the staff member to their face in front of your in-laws, then you'd be right, but rude. I'd go to the manager next time you're there and explain that both you and Isis-father-in-law have PhDs and that you'd like it if staff addressed you the same way, either Mrs/Mr or Dr/Dr.
It's actually the sort of thing managers want to know, so tell 'em.
* By which I mean: 100 years ago there were fewer PhDs around, but 'grade inflation' means that today they're worth less than they used to be. They're still worth having, but from the standard of PhD holders I know, they don't make you a socially superior being and ought not to get you bumped up a class on 'planes.
Posted by: JHB | January 12, 2009 5:32 AM
Oh La, I remember discussing this with a post-doc in my lab. I was reminiscing about a female professor from my undergrad days who would insist on the title. He felt it was excessive and veered towards bitchy, if I remember correctly. Although I agreed she was drawing attention to the gigantic chip on her shoulder, I felt there was likely a very good reason. Interesting to read how all the slights add up over time - I hope he reads this post too :)
Posted by: Natalie | January 12, 2009 7:33 AM
I think it's annoying that there are so many different titles for non-Ph.D women, anyway. All women can relate to the "what to be called" problem to some degree. I'm a non-married TA who teaches my own class, so I get called pretty much everything from "Miss," to "Mrs." to "Dr." and once, "lady."
From the flip side of it, I'm perfectly fine telling people *not* to call me Dr, and I'm never afraid that people will think that I'm being an uppity bitch for correcting them. That only comes when you're trying to get the respect you actually deserve!
(While we're on the topic- is there anything more annoying than being called Mrs. John Doe? My grandparents address all of their daughters-in-law like that- even on birthday cards! Yick!)
Posted by: Zinjanthropus | January 12, 2009 7:34 AM
This happens to me all of the time. As soon as people know I'm married, it's 'Mrs. Insert Husband's Family Name' and not simply Dr. Gnuma. Our families are worse -- they send mail to Mr. and Mrs. Insert Husband's Full Name. I did not change my last name, but now I've lost my first name, too??
In academic setting I tell people you can call me either Dr. Gnuma or First Name -- similarly to how I would correct someone if they called me the wrong first name -- no big deal. And if they sputter a little, 'Oh right, oops, ect' I just smile and move the conversation on. And then I go home at night and snarl a bit.
Posted by: gnuma | January 12, 2009 7:47 AM
In the first week of class, I send an email out to all my students with general information and sign it "Dr. Anonymous" and I stick with that for the rest of the semester. The first time I did it, yes, I felt like a pretentious bitch. But I'm used to it now and all the students pick up on it without me having to make a big deal about it. I think a lot of students generally don't have a clue about the proper and/or respectful ways to address faculty, and are unaware of their own biases.
I never use "Dr." in unprofessional settings - that does strike me as pretentious. The only time it rankles is in medical settings in which I address the "real" doctor as Dr. and he (yes, he) refers to me by my first name, or worse, a loathed contraction of my first name. But do I correct him? Of course not.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 12, 2009 8:30 AM
I have the opposite problem, in a sense. I do not have a PhD, but do have a M.S. I suppose since I write journal articles and attend conferences it is automatically assumed that I have a PhD. My usual response to someone calling me Dr. Danimal is "Don't call me doctor, I work for a living."
Posted by: Danimal | January 12, 2009 8:52 AM
Even my family write to us as "Dr & Mrs" csrster, despite the fact that a) Mrs. Csrster also has a doctorate and b) Mrs. Csrster isn't Mrs. Csrster at all since she never changed her name when we married. Sigh.
Posted by: csrster | January 12, 2009 9:21 AM
Hee hee! When I got married I changed my name (upgrade from 4 letters/1 syllable to 5 letters/2 syllables - totally worth it). The wedding was a very informal affair in Vancouver, but my parents paid for a separate reception back in the UK for friends and family who didn't make it to Canada. This was a much more formal do in a posh hotel, complete with a welcome sign congratulating the bride and groom.
About 2 weeks before the Vancouver wedding (read: total stress meltdown, exacerbated by being in the middle of interviewing for my current job), I got ANOTHER call from my mum, saying that the hotel were very confused about what to put on the congratulations sign. "They said Mr and Mrs Newsurname, but I said Dr, so they said Dr and Mrs, but that's wrong, isn't it?" "Yes, Mum, how about Mr and Dr?" Silence. "but, but, that just sounds so very very strange, and the hotel thought it sounded like a gay wedding, which they do do by the way, but they think guests would be confused".
So we ended up with "congratulations Hisfirstname and Myfirstname Newsurname" and some disapproving grumbles from management about how the sign should really say Mr and Mrs.
And yeah, I hate the letters addressed to Mr and Mrs Hisfullname.
Posted by: Cath@VWXYNot? | January 12, 2009 10:12 AM
Wasn't PhysioProf the commenter who asked why we should bother correcting students' misuse of our titles? Maybe he should change his name to PhysioGuy, or Joe the Physiologist.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 12, 2009 10:47 AM
I ALWAYS call PhD holders "Dr." ALWAYS. And I always have. I assume it comes from my desire to have the same title someday, but I feel it's just a straight-up sign of respect.
What's been interesting to me is when I've had to email an instructor prior to the start of a course (say, to find out the textbook we'll be using so I can buy it ahead of time). I always address that first correspondence as "Dear Professor X" because I would rather err on the side of undue titles. I've had a couple of them write back and say "Call me Jane - I'm a grad student." Which is fine. I never address that first email as "Dr" because I think "Professor" is a little more ambiguous in terms of degree attainment.
On a personal note, when I got married I did not change my last name. I hyphenated on my marriage certificate only so that I would have the option later on if I decided to change it, and the freedom to use either/or. My family KNOWS that I didn't change my last name, but they still mail my birthday cards and shit addressed to "Mrs. Z"
I hate that. My own damn family. I get it when my in-laws do it, but my own father???
Posted by: JLK | January 12, 2009 10:48 AM
Outside academia, a "Dr" is a medical doctor. Maybe a phychologist. Anything else is confusing to people.
Don't ask your dry cleaner to call you "Dr." instead of "Ms." or "Mr."
It is perfectly fair to ask your students or anyone else in an academic relationship to call you "Dr.", even the university administrative staff. It is fair, but people will still think you are jackass.
On another topic, I wish to be called "Master" because I have a masters degree. In fact, I have two. So I wish to be called "Master Master Ropty"
Posted by: ropty | January 12, 2009 11:08 AM
I never understood the need to use the prefix "Dr." for any asshole that has been awarded a Ph.D., while having no pefix for an asshole who earns a B.A. (B.Sc.), a M.A. (M.Sc.) or an engineering degree. What is it about academia and the pretentious assholes academicians that make them showing off their "achievment" like the tail feathers of a peacock?
I always hated being called "doctor" and have always discourage my students and peers from using it.
Much of this pretention has to do with where in the world you grew up and where you received your education. I grew up and received all my education outside the US. There, we related to our professors and mentors by their first name, yet we respected and admired them greatly. Not even once that I recall an academician there who corrected me or others, demanding that s/he will be refered to as doctor or professor. Then upon my arrival to this country, here I'm advised to put Dr. in front of my name on every official document (including personal checks I sign), since it will help me everywhere I turn, dealing with clerks, businesses, government officials, etc.
I guess in a society that value pretention, being pretentious pays off.
I still hate the prefix "Dr." and avoid using it completely.
Posted by: S. Rivlin | January 12, 2009 11:31 AM
A flip side of this is the PhD candidate who insists on being called Dr. I worked with one at an online course delivery company who was very rude and aggressive about being referred to as Dr by everyone he came in contact with.
Posted by: Rev Matt | January 12, 2009 11:32 AM
Wasn't PhysioProf the commenter who asked why we should bother correcting students' misuse of our titles?
You want FSP. Although I'm sure both Dr. Isis and FSP will be flattered.
Anyway, CP's only saying that to get attention. You and I and CP know perfectly well that if CP wanted, say, to write to the President next month, they'd start "Dear President Obama", rather than "Dear Barry". Same principle for students and staff, really.
Posted by: JHB | January 12, 2009 11:36 AM
Perfect topic for the first day of class. I've got a new standardized email that I'm going to send when I get something addressed to Ms. ScienceWoman. I almost can't wait to try it out.
Posted by: ScienceWoman | January 12, 2009 11:53 AM
I should add that I also despise all those faculty members who decorate their office walls with their different diploma certificates (like medical doctors do). I don't even remember in which box in my basement I put my diploma certificates.
Rev Matt, a Ph.D. candidate who insists on being called Dr. is not different from a citizen who makes a traffic stop of another driver and flashes a fake police badge.
Posted by: S. Rivlin | January 12, 2009 12:06 PM
Peggy,
...mostly because the [people] I usually interact with assume "Dr." means an MD, and I don't want to be expected to give opinions about people's weird rashes.
Ha, that's exactly why I never tell people I casually interact with what I do for a living.
But back on topic, if I see a new pt and for some reason I mistakenly call her Ms., I definitely would want her to correct me. In that setting I think it would unprofessional of me not to use the pt's preferred form of address.
Posted by: ema | January 12, 2009 12:07 PM
What is it about academia and the pretentious assholes academicians that make them showing off their "achievment" like the tail feathers of a peacock?
Because - in a professional capacity - achievement deserves respect. It's up to the holder to decide whether or not to waive that respect, not their correspondent.
I think you might also be a little harsh on academics; most professions - law, military, religion, government, etc. - expect similar courtesies in the workplace.
Although I agree, as most commenters seem to, that insisting on a title outside of work is a little dodgy.
Posted by: JHB | January 12, 2009 12:09 PM
If/When I finally receive my PhD, I will be calling myself Dr.ScientistMother. Alot of blood, sweat and tears is going into this degree and there is no way I am discarding the letters that come with it. I wil correct people on titles as well, just as politely as I do when they (1) mispronounce my first name (2) refer to me as Mrs, sorry just Ms. for me (3) mispronounce my sons name. If they think I'm a bitch too bad. Perhaps I'm used to sticking up for that kind of stuff. I grew up with non-indians always trying to shorten my name or give me a nickname that was more "white" and therefore easier to pronounce.
Posted by: ScientistMother | January 12, 2009 12:31 PM
JHB,
Let's leave the military out of this discussion. It is a completely different animal. As to academia, most faculty members are either holding a Masters or a Doctorate degree. The only reason that "achievement" is flashed around is to get the "respect" of the students and staff (those without a pompous degree). My experience, not only in academia, but in every other job and environment I was associated with, has been that people will respect you for what you are, how you relate to and treat them, not for the number of years you spent in school or the fact that you wrote a thesis about the role of the left antenna of the red ant.
Posted by: S. Rivlin | January 12, 2009 12:41 PM
You have the luxury of doing that if you are a male and don't have a history of societal underestimation to fight against even after being more than equally qualified when compared to a collegue with a penis.
One day in the future when a less academically qualified man standing next to a more academically qualified woman is not automatically assumed to be more academically qualified solely on the basis of having a penis, then we can finally have the discussion on this whole pretentious assholicity of academics of both genders.
You can even lead the revolution with your stellar display of disavowal of such honorifics
Posted by: arvind | January 12, 2009 12:45 PM
Sol @#19, I do not require anyone to refer to me as Dr but I do display with great joy and pride all of my diplomas and awards. When I get really depressed, they remind me of how far I've come and I really need that sometimes. One of my diplomas from a small college has the original signatures of ten professors, some of whom have passed on. I look to this particular document with gratitude to those who have contributed to who I am and serve(d) as examples to which I strive.
I know exactly the point to which Isis speaks in this post. PharmGirl, MD, treats women with breast cancer, many of whom come to clinic with their male partners. When she enters the exam room, she introduces herself as Dr PharmGirl. Invariably, the men refer to her by her first name throughout the discussion while the women are generally call her Dr PharmGirl for a few months until a relationship is established.
Posted by: Abel Pharmboy | January 12, 2009 12:47 PM
Hey, I know one of the guys on your Figure 1!
Yes, I too just feel a little bit of downtrod-stomp whenever I get called "Ms." or "Mrs." by a student. It's like you say: they just don't register that their female teachers/leaders are Dr.s and Prof.s too, until they get told. Most of them do automatically call me Dr., and even the ones who get to know me well have a hard time calling me by my first name even when I tell them to.
For a significant percentage of people around campus, they just don't automatically see me as one of the professors.
Posted by: Arlenna | January 12, 2009 12:55 PM
I'm with Sol, one of the unique bennies of the scientific path is that you get to dispense with all the title shit. First name basis, sez I. (Except in a couple of cases where I hear that GrandeOldeProfessor is "kindof formal" and I actually like her. And I forget most of the time anyway). A college friend had an MD dad who was fond of saying "I didn't go to school for XYZ years to be called 'Mister'. You can call me Doctor or you can call me FirstName" always making pretty clear that he wanted to be called FirstName. This stuck with me.
This is a mark if privilege associated with dangly bits, I have little doubt. It is true that having ascended to Asst Prof title perhaps a little younger than is the expected, I drew a tiny bit of the thing where people's first assumption was that I was still a postdoc. Only one was memorably ass-holish at a poster session about why I was last author and that I actually had a research group and "my" lab... Chalking this up to a somewhat reasonable age bias, I simply rolled with it and figured it would improve with time and visual aging. [have kids, btw, it does wonders for this]
It takes me about six iterations of "Please change your mailing list entry" for all of my alumni, etc groups that address things to Dr. and Mrs Monkey as opposed to Dr. Monkey and Dr. SmarterOne for them to clue it up.
I am very (very, very) much relieved that the family that consistently addresses us as The Monkeys or FirstName and FirstName Monkey or some such is on her side, not mine. If the Gramma who is closing in on 100 on my side can get it straight...
Anyway, great post Istorm!
Posted by: DrugMonkey | January 12, 2009 1:03 PM
How about Bachelors take one notch out of an eyebrow, Masters take 2, and PhDs take 3. MDs get 2 notches from both eyebrows. MD/PhDs can take an entire eyebrow. Or we could start using face tattoos/face paints. Either way, it'd make all of that a lot less confusing.
On an aside, if I earned 2 PhDs, could I paint my office door with Dr. Toaster^2?
Posted by: Toaster | January 12, 2009 1:06 PM
I use Dr outside work, but only if I'm specifically asked "Is that Mrs or Miss?" My marital status is just as irrelevant to my optician as my educational status is.
Posted by: MissPrism | January 12, 2009 1:27 PM
Dr. Isis...my wife is an M.D. (call her Dr. B.) and I have a Ph.D. My wife also has kept her last name. So I get called Mr. B all the time by people who know her and she gets called Mrs. D all the time by people who know me. We don't really care too much about titles, except in our respective professional environments, but it makes it fun for fucking with telemarketers and JWs! Now it is interesting that I get called Dr. B by people who know that one of us is an MD, but isn't sure which...
Posted by: Dr. D | January 12, 2009 1:46 PM
I took two classes from the only female professor in my undergrad. When she introduced herself in the first class, she told us that she expected to be called Dr or Prof. It seemed pretty bitchy to me at the time, but after this post I kind of understand the reasoning. I still think she could have been more polite about it, perhaps saying please. I didn't get along with her very well because she had a very formal style of dealing with students. Maybe it would have worked differently if we had better understanding of each other.
When I finish my PhD, I will request that people call me Dr or Prof (assuming I am a prof at that point) or by my first name at work. I prefer my first name because I don't feel that I'm any better than anyone else for getting a PhD. I may try the title if students have a problem with respect in the classroom, but I'm not convinced that most students would respect me any more if they had to call me by a title.
Posted by: NJS | January 12, 2009 2:11 PM
I'm pretty informal by nature, and while teaching have introduced myself as "Dr. Julie Stahlhut", telling students that either "Dr. Stahlhut" or "Julie" was okay. What was always difficult was communicating that I'm not "Professor Stahlhut", since the last was a job title that I did not actually hold.
Posted by: Julie Stahlhut | January 12, 2009 2:16 PM
Speaking as a lowly (former) undergrad: I tend to stick to "Professor Foo" unless I know for a fact otherwise. It seems less disrespectful to address a grad student as "Professor" than to address someone without a doctorate as "Doctor", and both seem less disrespectful than "Mr./Ms."
Of course, this applies only in an academic setting. In the Real World(tm), it's Mr. Foo or Ms. Foo.
On a related note, is it generally appropriate to address someone with a doctorate as "sir" or "ma'am"?
Posted by: Benjamin Geiger | January 12, 2009 3:06 PM
Well Benjamin, I'd at least rather be called "Ma'am" than "Sir."
Posted by: Arlenna | January 12, 2009 3:09 PM
'So, I can appreciate that many of us in the Ph.D. world try not to be overly pretentious about our honorary titles'
First of all, a Ph.D., is NOT an honorary degree. It is the highest degree awarded by the University. Period.
Second- I care very little for titles and was brought up an academic culture that was first name basis. Professional school was different, very title based. (I use titles only as my blog name, ironically- only because I'm lacking for creativity).
Third- Sol- You are making me mad today. I have my diplomas on my wall because I worked hard for those babies and many, many times thought I wasn't going to make it. They hang on my wall not to display my greatness to others but to remind ME that I've been through the wringer once or twice, and came out standing. If I can do that once or twice, I can do that again.
Posted by: drdrA | January 12, 2009 3:12 PM
Professional school was different, very title based
AHAHAAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!ONE!!!!!ONE!!!!
um, and why might that be doubledoc?
Posted by: BikeMonkey | January 12, 2009 3:17 PM
The faculty in my department long ago decided that students should address them by their first names, and I've even heard one correct a student who insisted on calling him "Professor X" with "No, it's Joe." However, they all also settled on a common signature for their emails that looks something like
Dr. Joe X
Department of Whatchamacallit
This University
address, phone, etc...
so everyone knows who's a Dr. and who's not. It's subtle, and it seems to work. OTOH, we're a small department with strong faculty-student relationships, even with undergrads. Every faculty member knows the name of every undergraduate major and grad student, and we party as well as work together. So we may be an exception to the norm.
Posted by: Karen | January 12, 2009 3:23 PM
#36 Bikemonkey- I have no idea, but it annoyed the crap out of me. I was very happy with the first name basis thing. Perhaps it was just an emphasis on 'professionalism' that was very heavy where I went to vet school- and also a respect for a culture of professional authority.
Posted by: drdrA | January 12, 2009 3:41 PM
Perhaps it was just an emphasis on 'professionalism' that was very heavy where I went to vet school- a respect for a culture of professional authority.
ohh, I doubt the "where" matters much.
Posted by: BikeMonkey | January 12, 2009 3:50 PM
Actually, sod it, I use Dr. lots outside work and I'm not sorry.
Most importantly it gets me some RESPECT. Many men would be be surprised how often other men treat women like children; using Dr drastically reduces my risk of being talked down to in an infuriating and time-wasting manner by my bank manager, medical doctor, plumber, vet, dentist, central heating engineer, etc.
I also like to make telemarketers squirm when they phone and ask "Is Dr Prism there? Well, can I speak to him?"
Posted by: MissPrism | January 12, 2009 3:56 PM
S. Rivlin #23:
My experience, not only in academia, but in every other job and environment I was associated with, has been that people will respect you for what you are, how you relate to and treat them, not for the number of years you spent in school or the fact that you wrote a thesis about the role of the left antenna of the red ant.
I think that point is really at the crux of this post and I should stress that my insistence on formal titles is limited to first contact. After first contact, it's whatever the two people feel comfortable with. But before first contact - and in a professional environment - people don't know 'what you are' and titles are a shorthand to tell them. The title might mislead - you might be a PhD and thick as a post - but I think they should be used from the off and only dropped when the holders waive them.
Ben #33:
is it generally appropriate to address someone with a doctorate as "sir" or "ma'am"?
Don't know about the US, but in the UK, no. 'Sir' and 'Ma'am' are relatively obsolete polite terms that don't really see the light of day except in cases of age or extreme social disparity. Royalty are the main ones anymore - for example, you call the Queen 'Your Majesty' on first meeting her and 'Ma'am' thereafter.
And yeah, it's a bit silly...
Posted by: JHB | January 12, 2009 3:57 PM
drdrA, sorry about it. Still, I feel that whatever wall space not already covered with bookshelves should have a board you can sketch yours and your students/postdoc ideas on or a hung up poster of a biochemical pathway or something. If you need any reminder of your hard earned pompous certificates, scan them and put them on your screensaver. If you put them on the wall you simply ruffle your own peacock feathers.
Able Pharmboy, put your publications on the wall instead, especially those during your doctoral and postdoctoral work, those that have the names of your mentors and professors, to carry you through the shitty days. Even better, go to the library and read those pre-1966 journal volumes that both you and I appreciate so much.
Posted by: S. Rivlin | January 12, 2009 4:04 PM
My husband and I are Dr and Dr, but we routinely get things address to as as "Dr and Mrs "His First Name" "His Second Name", which pisses me off no end. Had I been inclined to take his name upon marriage I would still NOT be Mrs Him Him. I, too, get it from both his relatives and mine. Mine, actually, find my keeping of my own name sufficiently ridiculous to have mocked during speeches it at our wedding. But, I digress.
When students address me by my first name, I have no problem. When, however, they address me as Mrs. Doc, I tend to tell them that Mrs Doc is my mother and that they may call me Post or Dr Doc. Like Miss Prism, I only tell non-work people that it's Dr when they ask me if it's Miss or Mrs.
Posted by: PostDoc | January 12, 2009 4:07 PM
My wife is a physician, and inevitably gets called "nurse" all the time, white coat or no.
However, my 2.5 year old son knows so many female docs, that anytime a woman entered the room while the wife was on bedrest, he asked, "What does the doctor want?"
Something the wife and I definitely got a kick out of.
Posted by: Nat | January 12, 2009 4:23 PM
It's worth noting that because of the Mrs/Miss/Ms thing, women get directly asked their title far more often than men do.
Posted by: MissPrism | January 12, 2009 4:24 PM
To all the women out there with PhDs.
Damn straight you've earned the right to be called Dr. PhD is not an honourary degree with an honourary title that comes with it. It's the highest degree you can regularly get and you should be proud to correct somebody making the false assumption that you don't deserve to be called doctor (at least on the first meeting when most people tend to then insist on first names).
My aunt also holds a PhD. She was once accosted by a flight attendant who was quite adamant that she must be using her husband's frequent flyer card (My uncle not being any flavour of doctor). I have also corrected a few people who give her the wrong title. You worked hard you should not be made to feel guilty for using the title whenever it's appropriate.
As for MDs being the 'real' doctors that's actually false. MDs (or in English style universities where Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery is the basic medical qualification) have not contributed to the human knowledge base and therefore their titles are the honourary ones. At least in the parts of the world where MBBS is the medical degree we PhDs can rightly claim to be the 'real' doctors.
PS
JHB
PhDs are a relatively recent concept. I think you'll find that they have not been around for 100 years in most places.
Posted by: nm | January 12, 2009 4:27 PM
Our son went to a toney private school for a year. Although my husband and I both have PhDs, somehow when we filled out our forms, I put "Dr" down and he must have put nothing or "Mr." I also kept my last name.
All our mail from toney school was addressed "Mr and Dr. [husband first name] [husband last name]." I could only infer that he was Mr. John Smith and I myself was Dr. John Smith.
I usually prefer to just call myself "Jane Doe" rather than "Dr. Jane Doe" but sometimes being "Dr. Jane Doe" is useful when calling and leaving a message for some fellow researcher or academician that I don't actually know, either on voice mail or with some kind of secretary. Sad that just having a female voice and name identifies you as an underling and you have to fight back with your title.
Posted by: Karen | January 12, 2009 4:44 PM
PhDs are a relatively recent concept. I think you'll find that they have not been around for 100 years in most places.
You're quite right; I'm using it as a shorthand for Doctorates-of-all-types-as-the-highest-degree, which I know is both lazy and wrong.
Posted by: JHB | January 12, 2009 4:45 PM
That's really funny, Nat. When I started Little Isis in school his teacher asked me what I do and I replied (not wanting to get into a huge discussion about my work), "I work at the hospital." Her reply was, "Oh, a lot of the other moms are nurses too."
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | January 12, 2009 5:29 PM
"You and I and CP know perfectly well that if CP wanted, say, to write to the President next month, they'd start "Dear President Obama", rather than "Dear Barry". "
I don't know; "Barry" seems inappropriate since it's not his currently preferred moniker (she said, speaking as someone who does not go by "Becky" except to people who have changed her diapers).
Anyway, Barack signed his last email to me "Barack". Until he switches (and I don't see why he would), I would address a letter to him that way. Granted CP may not be on as good terms as I am...
As a student, I greatly appreciate professors who sign their emails with how they wish to be addressed. However, I still ignore it most of the time.
I would never call someone by their first name if they sign with "Dr. Smith", but I will frequently call someone "Dr. Smith" when they sign it "Jill". There are two main reasons for this: titles are a sign of familarity and respect.
On familarity: if you notice your students consistently using more formal titles then you subtly suggest, you may want to work on your professional boundaries. Particularly if you are male and they are female. Particularly if you are apt to do inappropriate things like ask them to go bed shopping.
Titles are one way of distancing myself from some professors.
On respect: I felt perfectly comfortable calling professors by their first names when I *got* to grad school, but I have since learned that most professors want/need every sign of respect they can get. At least from students such as myself, who err on the side of questioning authority far too assertively (and tirelessly).
As far as social use of titles, I'm with Miss Manners... "Only people of the medical profession correctly use the title of doctor socially. A really fastidious doctor of philosophy will not use it professionally either, and schools and scholarly institutions where it assumed that everyone has an advanced degree use "Mr.", "Mrs.", "Miss" or "Ms."
Many people feel strongly possessive about their scholarly titles, however, and it is Miss Manners' principle to allow them to call themselves what they want. She will only offer them a story: Miss Manners' own dear father, who would never allow himself to be addressed as doctor, used to say that a Ph.D. was like a nose- you don't make a fuss about having one because you assume that everyone does; it's only when you don't have one that it is conspicuous. For sheer snobbery, doesn't that beat insisting on being called doctor?" (Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior)
Posted by: Becca | January 12, 2009 5:37 PM
JHB @ #41:
Odd. The US must be lagging behind, as "sir" and "ma'am" are the de facto standard for polite address on this side of the puddle. Granted, direct address is most often used to get someone's attention when their occupation or credentials are unknown: "Excuse me, sir? You forgot this." It's used when dealing with authority figures (primarily the police) as well.
My question was primarily about whether it's acceptable to use the same forms of direct address to someone who holds a doctorate as one would use for anyone else...
Posted by: Benjamin Geiger | January 12, 2009 5:38 PM
I was thinking more about the gender bias thing this afternoon and remember an old post I had on Nancy Andrews, MD, PhD, on her account in NEJM of when she became the first female dean of a top 10 medical school:
...it continues to be true that we do not expect women to hold certain positions in society or medicine. Recently, I witnessed firsthand the persistence of such expectations, when my husband, our children, and I went to visit a school in North Carolina where Duke staff members had made an appointment for the family of the new dean of the medical school. As we entered the school, its principal vigorously shook my husband's hand and welcomed him, saying, "You must be the man of the moment." Unfortunately, it is quite understandable that it wouldn't have crossed his mind that I might be the "woman of the moment" instead...
Posted by: Abel Pharmboy | January 12, 2009 5:45 PM
Becca @ #50:
I never considered the effect of using more formal titles than expected. I'm one of these weird people that is practically incapable of using first names; when I worked as a student assistant, my boss (a professor) often invited me over to her house, and to this day I still refer to her as "Professor $SURNAME".
The only people I address by their first names are my immediate coworkers and family members, and even then I tend to use a less informal form of their name. (I'm the only one in my family who calls my uncle "Jim" instead of "Jimmy", or my other uncle "Ben" instead of "Benny Pat".)
(And for the record, if I were to write a letter to President-Elect Obama after his inauguration, I would use "Dear Mr. President".)
Posted by: Benjamin Geiger | January 12, 2009 5:48 PM
I would have hoped that the queen of calling bullshit would have recognized what hot, fresh bullshit this really is.
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | January 12, 2009 5:50 PM
Becca @ #50:
I never considered the effect of using more formal titles than expected. I'm one of these weird people that is practically incapable of using first names; when I worked as a student assistant, my boss (a professor) often invited me over to her house, and to this day I still refer to her as "Professor $SURNAME".
The only people I address by their first names are my immediate coworkers and family members, and even then I tend to use a less informal form of their name. (I'm the only one in my family who calls my uncle "Jim" instead of "Jimmy", or my other uncle "Ben" instead of "Benny Pat".)
(And for the record, if I were to write a letter to President-Elect Obama after his inauguration, I would use "Dear Mr. President".)
Posted by: Benjamin Geiger | January 12, 2009 5:53 PM
Bikemonkey #39-
Actually I think it has quite a lot to do with this particular vet school- I attended two different vet schools and they were very different in this respect. One of them has a sort of very strict culture- where respect up the ranks is given an insane amount of importance. The other school was not like this at all.
Posted by: drdrA | January 12, 2009 5:53 PM
I'm born and raised in the US, and I don't use "sir" or "ma'am" at all. I'm pretty sure it's a regional thing. My mom recently moved to Georgia, and everyone there calls her "ma'am" (she hates that, by the way). Are you from the South, Benjamin Geiger?
Some of my Indian students call me "sir", but I'd prefer it if they used my first name. Generally if prospective grad students write me with "Dear Sir" I ignore it---not using my name is a red flag that they haven't bothered to learn anything about my research.
Posted by: lylebot | January 12, 2009 6:07 PM
The only person I require to call me 'Dr.' is my husband.
Dr. Sanford is an ol' school chum of mine from UC, Davis. In fact, she was my 'student mentor' my first year at UCD. Kirsten is not only an intelligent scientist but a wonderful, kind, hilarious person. Her iTunes podcast and radio science show are full of good sound science information. Check it out.
Posted by: Dr. Glitter | January 12, 2009 6:15 PM
Ben #51 and 55:
Good point on writing to the President; I haven't a clue what the correct form is, but I'm sure there is one and I'd check if I were writing to him.
"sir" and "ma'am" are the de facto standard for polite address on this side of the puddle.
Yes, I'd noticed that. You're a lot more polite like that, I think. The much-derided 'Have a nice day' might be another example; you wouldn't really get shop staff saying that over here.
My question was primarily about whether it's acceptable to use the same forms of direct address to someone who holds a doctorate as one would use for anyone else...
Strictly - and anally - speaking, no. The correct form of direct address in the UK is just 'Dr. lastname' each time you address or write to them. As far as I know, almost every Dr. gets a little atavistic tingle every time somebody new addresses them like that. And also as far as I know, almost all of them will then immediately say, 'Oh, just call me firstname'.
Written like that, I've got to admit the whole respect-followed-by-deprecation ritual does sound a bit silly. Compared to World Peace, it's obviously not very important, but manners cost so little that it seems perverse not to use them when you first meet somebody, which is all that correct title use boils down to.
Posted by: JHB | January 12, 2009 7:06 PM
When I started Little Isis in school his teacher asked me what I do and I replied (not wanting to get into a huge discussion about my work), "I work at the hospital." Her reply was, "Oh, a lot of the other moms are nurses too."
When I'm asked what I do I reply "I'm a scientist."
Posted by: S. Rivlin | January 12, 2009 7:57 PM
Generally, the question is posed to me as "What are you doing here?" and I reply as "Back off, man, I'm a scientist!"
Posted by: Alex | January 12, 2009 8:10 PM
It interests me how averse people are to the title thing. I think it is a weird bit of psychology that so many academics seem intent on showing how not-pretentious they are by refusing to use their proper title. Ironically, it suggests the opposite. It suggests that they believe that their PhD does make them superior, and thus they don't want to brag about it. I tend to see it as merely a neutral statement of professional rank.
Posted by: yolio | January 12, 2009 8:13 PM
More seriously, I've found that if I say "I'm a theoretical physicist" people get intimidated. But if I say "I do biomedical research" (because I do biophysics with medical applications) people feel like they can relate to me more easily. If I say "I'm a theoretical physicist" the taxi driver will generally start going on about how smart I must be. If I go the biomedical route and mention the diseases my work relates to, they start telling me about family members with those diseases. Sometimes it backfires, though, and they tell me that homeopathic remedies are the way to deal with those diseases.
Posted by: Alex | January 12, 2009 8:13 PM
If my mother has gone to the trouble and expense of framing my degrees in overpriced university frames, you had better believe that those puppies are going on my wall. Oddly, perhaps, I am more proud of my undergraduate diploma than my doctorate.
You know, I don't understand why we can't be asked to be called doctor if that's what we want. Medical doctors don't blink an eye in demanding proper title usage, and they weren't even the first ones to even use the term doctor- I believe the lawyers and professors came first. I don't think it has anything to do with arrogance; in a professional context, it is completely appropriate.
Posted by: Candid Engineer | January 12, 2009 8:31 PM
I hadn't really thought about it this way when I first commented at FSP's place, but now I see that this is absolutely correct, and that my comment was privileged bullshit.
Posted by: Comrade PhysioProf | January 12, 2009 8:52 PM
I am glad that people are able to appreciate different perspectives as a result of my post. Sharing these thoughts with people who have committed themselves to being our allies makes them stronger allies in the end -- especially when they demonstrate a willingness to try to understand things as women in science experience them.
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | January 12, 2009 9:13 PM
Word. Freakin' WORD.
MissPrism (funny!) (#29) makes an excellent point. While I feel pretentious/bitchy/pathetic when I correct nonacademics on my title, why should I? I don't want to be identified by my martial status (don't even get me started on Ms.). Another thing I love (eye roll) is that I feel bitchy at ALL for informing students of my preference on what they call me. Do any professors that happen to be male feel bitchy or are interpreted as being bitchy by their students for merely informing students of their preferred title? Sigh.
Posted by: unbalanced reaction | January 12, 2009 9:18 PM
It suggests that they believe that their PhD does make them superior, and thus they don't want to brag about it. I tend to see it as merely a neutral statement of professional rank.
Or they tend to believe that certain asswipes holding credentials in other doctoral professions blunder about brandishing their titles in an obnoxious fashion, looking like utter weebags. Perhaps PhD scientists are violently opposed to being viewed in a similar light and have an allergic reaction to such posturing.
Posted by: BikeMonkey | January 12, 2009 9:27 PM
@unbalanced reaction #67: could I trouble you to get you started on Ms? No longer a problem for me, but until I got my PhD ~6 months ago, I used Ms as the best of the available options. Would be interested in your thoughts.
Posted by: PostDoc | January 12, 2009 9:42 PM
Could it be the crowbar? ;)
Posted by: Azkyroth | January 12, 2009 9:42 PM
Wow.
Unless "don't even get me started on" has an entirely different meaning for you, what the hell DO you want people to call women who don't have a PhD? Or don't you give a damn?Posted by: The Ridger | January 12, 2009 9:50 PM
This sort of thing varies, depending on, for example, where you teach. I'm a PhD who taught part time at a very well-known women's college in Massachusetts for a number of years. At that school, the rule was to refer to the male professors as "Mr. X" rather than "Dr. X" or "Professor X." I'm not sure what the rule was for female professors, but I assume it was "Ms" or "Miss" or "Mrs." depending on the preferences of the woman involved.
My dad, who is a retired PhD professor at an Ivy League school, thought this was a great idea. It's not how they did it at his school, though.
Posted by: Dave | January 12, 2009 9:55 PM
Wait, what? I was born and raised in the South by an immigrant parent and a native Southerner (so I talk both kinds of funny), and I was deeptaught that I should always address people, any people, older than I am as "sir" or "ma'am" as a polite thing and to show respect. And yeahsure, saying "have a nice day" and employees calling customers "sir" and "ma'am" was a given. Since I've moved to the North, I notice that there is a lot less of that. I'd always kind of blamed it on living in a college town and the fact that students in general can be douchebags, but maybe it's just Northerners. Come to think of it, it's a lot of the same in other Northern cities. So yeah, I'll ascribe usage of "sir/ma'am" as being regional.
As for Ph.D. holders, I call them "Doctor" until they correct me.
And today I asked Doctorvetboss whether scientists use "business cards" at conferences, and apparently sometimes they do. Ha! Logic at last!
Posted by: Toaster | January 12, 2009 10:07 PM
...
Alex:
Azkyroth
Hey, a scientist has to be ready to 'adjust' her/his science at any time...
...tom...
.
Posted by: ...tom... | January 12, 2009 10:30 PM
Actually, postdoc & co. Formally, in English, a married woman's title is Mrs. Husband's First Name, Husbands Last Name. You may not use that title, but it is correct. Now, that is her title to be used in formal circumstances, expressing the importance of the familial bond and how property is passed down. Her name is still her birth name unless she's gone to the bother of changeing it and getting a new passport, identity documents, etc. If you haven't gone through the legal formalities of changing your name, it remains the same as your birth name.
Kinda reminds me of Dodgson's white knight, and the song, the name of the song, the song which is called X, and the name of the song which was called Y...
Frankly, if you're not a medical doctor, dentist, or vet, stick with Mr. and Ms. and avoid pretense.
Posted by: William the Coroner | January 12, 2009 11:05 PM
I use "Dr." when addressing professors for protection. Its use emphasizes the professional boundary between instructor and student. When I return to grad school, I never want a professor to cross a line with me again.
Posted by: Juniper Shoemaker | January 12, 2009 11:07 PM
And since William the Coroner is such an expert on English he should also know that neither the Medical Dental or Veterinary professionals in England actually hold doctoral degrees in anything. They enjoy honourary (or pretend) titles only.
Posted by: anon | January 12, 2009 11:18 PM
I'm a basic science postdoc at a medical research institution (not a full-service university) and I do my best to avoid being called "doctor" by anyone. Now, disclaimer-wise, I'm a white male, so take that into consideration as necessary given the above discussion. My dislike of being called "doctor" is very fundamental - I would be offended if I were to be confused for a physician. ;)
I personally only wanted to be called "doctor" once in my life, and I was - it was when my graduate advisor walked out of the room where my graduate committee was meeting after my public and private defense, and said, "Congratulations, doctor."
Posted by: MJ | January 12, 2009 11:34 PM
That's really funny, Nat. When I started Little Isis in school his teacher asked me what I do and I replied (not wanting to get into a huge discussion about my work), "I work at the hospital." Her reply was, "Oh, a lot of the other moms are nurses too."
So stupidly typical. Another thing that often happens to my wife and her female colleagues is going to talk to patients as the head of the team, and having the patient direct their answers to my wife's questions to the only male on the team, even when they are the medical student.
Posted by: Nat | January 12, 2009 11:35 PM
"I think it is a weird bit of psychology that so many academics seem intent on showing how not-pretentious they are by refusing to use their proper title. Ironically, it suggests the opposite. It suggests that they believe that their PhD does make them superior, and thus they don't want to brag about it. I tend to see it as merely a neutral statement of professional rank."
I think that your suggestion has no legs to stand on. Have you seen people wearing their Purple Heart to work? Have you seen those who were awarded the Medal of Honor wearing it daily on their chests? How about olympic champions? Do they wear their medals everywhere they go?
I suggest to you that those who show off their "Dr." are simply poumpus asses. The cheapest excuses for this pomposity are: "I worked so hard for it; I spit blood; it almost broke my marriage; I did not sleep for nights on." The only people who you could really impress are your collegues and peers, and they will not be impressed with your "Dr.", only with your science.
Posted by: S. Rivlin | January 12, 2009 11:55 PM
By that reasoning Sol then nobody should have any titles for any reason whatsoever.
Posted by: anon | January 13, 2009 12:47 AM
My mentor has a compromise that I am wonderfully fond of - she does not want to be called Dr. Lastname. You can call her Firstname, or (what I call her) Dr. J (first initial).
As J is also my first initial, I aspire to be called "Dr. J." by my students someday as well. I will not use Dr. unless I am in a situation where I need to because I am being talked down to by someone without a leg to stand on. Call me a pompous ass if you will.
And I'm sorry - calling professors "Dr." is just a simple sign of fucking respect when you are an undergrad. God knows these fucking kids have so little respect for anyone or anything these days. When I call a professor "Dr." I am saying to them, "I appreciate and admire you for being an expert in your field, and I want you to know that." Period.
Interesting note - the APA (psychology) has been fighting a battle over the ability for PhDs to be called "Dr." MDs have been trying to take this away for years now, but psychologists want to make sure that in news releases and press stories that level of expertise is clearly communicated. I wholeheartedly support this.
Posted by: JLK | January 13, 2009 1:12 AM
Eppendork has a Masters degree - she is mistress of you all!! Kidding - I have never come across anyone who insisted that I call them Dr - it is just assumed if you are at a "scientist" level you have a doctorate and if everyone except the techs have one - who cares? Maybe it is different in an academic situation - although none of my lecturers told me I must call them Dr. I seriously can't remember doing it. Respect is just a given - well it is for me anyway. Nevertheless Eppendork wants to be referred to as Mistress Eppendork!
Posted by: Eppendork | January 13, 2009 1:28 AM
William the Coroner: Formally, in English, a married woman's title is Mrs. Husband's First Name, Husbands Last Name. You may not use that title, but it is correct.
You may call it correct. I call it offensive, and as anachronistic as a witch burning in 21st century Massachusetts. "But, we have always done it that way" is not a defense.
Posted by: PostDoc | January 13, 2009 3:08 AM
Sol #42, now if only some of my own pubs were pre-1966!
JLK #82, I was just thinking about your point with psychologists when coming across some ads tonight for naturopaths listing themselves as "Dr." Now why doesn't the AMA go after that?
Posted by: Abel Pharmboy | January 13, 2009 3:44 AM
S. Rivlin #80:
I think that your suggestion has no legs to stand on. Have you seen people wearing their Purple Heart to work? Have you seen those who were awarded the Medal of Honor wearing it daily on their chests?
I'm confused as to what point you're trying to make here. The military wear decorations at work, but not when off-duty. Are you using this to argue:
1. that we should do the same?
2. that neither we nor the military should wear decorations at work?
3. that the military should, but we shouldn't?
And CP #65:
I hadn't really thought about it this way when I first commented at FSP's place, but now I see that this is absolutely correct, and that my comment was privileged bullshit.
That's an impressive thing to write. In a similar vein, for a thread this length, this is one of the least rancorous and most instructive bunch of comments I've read, so virtual "thank-you"s all round!
Posted by: JHB | January 13, 2009 4:17 AM
And on a related note, anyone else have students stare at your diploma in confusion and ask why you have a degree in Philosophy instead of your area of specialty?
Posted by: Female Engineering Professor | January 13, 2009 6:11 AM
Candid Engineer
In Germany medical doctors do not hold the title of doctor unless they also have earned a PhD. Arzt or Arztin are the terms for male and female medical doctors, respectively. Also titles add up, for example, a PhD and professor are not the same thing. I know someone who goes by the title Herr Professor Doktor Doktor Lastname. Herr is equivalent to Mr if female it would be Frau. The title means the person is a Professor (the highest honor) and has two PhDs. What would probably upset some of the women here is that the wife of the professor would be called Frau Professor Doktor Doktor {husband's first name} {husband's last name}. Also if you have a PhD, since the German language has formal and informal ways of speeking, the formal way to address someone with a PhD, in polite company, is Doktor. The medical doctors only get addressed as Herr or Mr, unless as stated they really have a PhD. Thus addressing when addressing Orac or PalMD formally speaking they would be Dr. Orac and Mr. PalMD, respectively.
Posted by: Danimal | January 13, 2009 7:12 AM
Physioprof, you rock.
As I recall, teaching evaluations tend to vary with (among other things) the students' perception of the experience, qualifications, and seniority/rank of the instructor. A lot of this talk of titles is just personal preference. But if you teach undergrads, and your department uses those stupid evaluations to determine, say, your raise, then constantly being downgraded to Miss or Mrs. may have serious consequences.
I just read that Texas A&M is awarding raises to instructors with high evaluations....
Posted by: Anonymous | January 13, 2009 8:42 AM
As a male who was of a certain age when the Isis television show was on, there is only one salutation that (for me) is compatible with the name Isis. That salutation is Oh Mighty (with slight reverb).
Posted by: daedalus2u | January 13, 2009 10:10 AM
"I would have hoped that the queen of calling bullshit would have recognized what hot, fresh bullshit this really is."
Oh naturally, it is bullshit. Simply delightfully snarky bullshit.
However, I think it serves well to illustrate what my general point was- titles aren't simply a matter of "respect for the work done"- they truly are a very complex, inter-layered, intricate creation stemming from many different inputs. What is "correct" depends on the message you want to send.
Posted by: Becca | January 13, 2009 11:55 AM
Would you believe, mere hours after I post my comment (#87) regarding the Ph in PhD a sweet little undergrad innocently observed, "I notice your degree is in Philosophy..."
Posted by: Female Engineering Professor | January 13, 2009 2:11 PM
...
daedalus2u...
.
Win.
...tom...
.
Posted by: ...tom... | January 13, 2009 2:28 PM
anon (#81) - Of course we should have titles, since they qualify us for doing our job. However, to wear those titles on our foreheads is silly; put them in your CV, where they belong and count.
Able Pharmboy (#85) - My first publication was published in 1971; It was the outcome of my Masters thesis and it is still being cited today.
JHB (#86) - 1. If you have watched TV lately, I'm sure you must have noticed American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan at work. I could not see any decorations or medals on their uniforms, only bullet-proof vests, weapons, ammo, etc. However, they do wear their name tags and ranks on their uniforms. Maybe academicians should wear a name tag and a rank (Assist. Prof, Assoc. Prof, Full Prof on their "uniforms"). BTW, I see many soldiers wearing their decorations off duty, mainly in transit from base to home.
2. See #1
3. See #2
Posted by: S. Rivlin | January 13, 2009 4:48 PM
Sol, the major issue is not over if titles should be used at all. Titles are used in various ways in different places. Big whoop.
The point is that certain people are still being assumed to have less training and lower seniority based on the fact that they are female. The asymmetrically gendered use of assumed titles in professional and day-to-day life reflects this. Gentle correction of the title helps question those (sometimes unconsciously held) assumptions.
Posted by: Neuro | January 13, 2009 5:57 PM
I see lots of opinions, many of which are nonsense (that is, they don't agree with me).
1. Doctor is a formal title, meaning 'teacher'. A Ph.D. is a doctor, an MD, MB, or DVM is called 'doctor' as a courtesy. Surgeons in most countries go by Mr., as they don't want to be confused with a mere physician.
2. Although women are catching and in some fields exceeding men in terms of Ph.D's granted (medicine, psychology, etc), this is not acknowledged. The women I work with are all Dr. X., although they may choose not to emphasize the title. They earned it, it's theirs to decide whether or not to use it. As a man, I may decide I get enough deference without it, and may choose not to use it. However, it's my choice. I won't choose for anyone else. (My choice is Dr instead of Mr - my cohabitant is Dr. instead of Ms., and when it was Dr. & Mr., it did cause the odd bit of confusion).
3. I've only attended universities in Canada and Australia, but Dr. or professor was the term used in both places. If you're a colleague, lab worker, etc., then you speak as your colleagues prefer; last names, first names, nicknames, whatever.
I'm a psychologist, primarily working in a hospital, but spending some time in research. American Psychological Association style is to call people J. Smith, Ph.D., in print. That seems to dodge the question neatly, and they avoid titles entirely. However, we often have to speak to people, not just write about them.
Posted by: stewart | January 13, 2009 10:30 PM
Neuro,
I have understood the point. I simply pointed my opinion about the irrelevance of the title "Dr." for me and for those who mentored me. I also understand that in the US such a title is important for certain people so much that they will value it more than what it stands for.
Also a commenter (#62) came up with a crooked suggestion of reverse phsyhology according to which, academicians who show how not-pretentious they are about their titles are actually pretentious.
I think women have already closed the gap between them and the male assholes that they still whining about. The last two provosts in my university were women; my last two chairpersons were women; the number of faculty members in my departemnt who are women is equal to the number of men and the number of female medical students over the past several years in our school of medicine is ~50%.
Less whining about unrecognized titles, more hot science, that the solution to any perceived or real lack of recognition. For every young doctor out there, male or female, my advice is - place your diploma in your file cabinet and forget about it. Also forget your "important" title, work as hard on doing the best science or the best teaching or whatever best job you suppose to do and students, peers and colleagues will shower you with the best titles you ever heard of. Do a shitty job and no title in the world will save your ass.
Posted by: S. Rivlin | January 14, 2009 12:08 AM
Since privilege is part of this discussion, I want to bring up some people who occupy lower positions on the academic rung:
Many senior non-Ph.D. techs are superbly talented with the instrumentation, they have a good understanding of the science, the ones running facilities often have good managerial skills, and in grad school I was trained on instruments by techs whose patience and skill as teachers rivaled any Ph.D. professor. Despite all that, they occupy a lower, less prestigious position. Skilled, experience techs and facilities managers should be treated as equals by all PIs, male or female, and no PI should expect to be called "Dr." or "Prof." by a senior technician running a facility. Interact with them as equals, because in terms of technical, organizational, and teaching skills, they often are.
Come to think of it, the same should apply to any experienced and skilled staff members. We professors are utterly reliant on staff members who may not have the same credentials as us but are often far more experienced, just as dedicated, and superbly talented. No professor, male or female, old or young, should insist that the staff use formal titles with him or her.
Even worse, I have seen talented and experienced adjuncts (some of whom only have Masters degrees) refer to tenure-track faculty as "Dr." I always tell them to call me by my name. In the classroom their powers and responsibilities are the same as mine, they deserve the same respect from the students, and I need to demonstrate that by interacting with them as equals.
Posted by: Alex | January 14, 2009 2:07 AM
"I think women have already closed the gap between them and the male assholes that they still whining about. The last two provosts in my university were women; my last two chairpersons were women; the number of faculty members in my departemnt who are women is equal to the number of men and the number of female medical students over the past several years in our school of medicine is ~50%."
Guess what? You think wrong. As in, you are factually incorrect, not as in "I don't agree".
Bully for your university, if it's as you report, but it's assuredly not typical. Get the data- they are out there. You are simply illustrating you are incapable of looking beyond an n=1.
Posted by: Becca | January 14, 2009 10:10 AM
Becca,
Most of the discussion on this thread has been focused on attitudes, not on hard numbers and statistics. I believe that whining is completely useless in achieving whatever goals a group of people try to achieve. The whining I hear among the comments here are about women not getting the respect that men get for their titles. It may be true that this is the case in many academic institutions and among the general public. It could also be that the reason for this situation is a simple outcome of a history, as ugly as it is, of mainly men receiving academic degrees, a history that plays a role mainly among the older generation. Nevertheless, again, whining about those perceptions is a waste. As more women taking their place in the academic world, their equality, at least in the academic world, is becoming a fact. To expect recognition of your title by tatooing it on your forehead is not the way to achieve that equality. I am sure that the men in academia that you appreciate and maybe admire do not wear their titles on their chests and their title is not the reason you hold them in high regard. That the way you should relate to women in academia, including yourself. Show off your science and your teaching abilities by being the best you can. When you do that, your title is a minute and insignificant detail.
Posted by: S. Rivlin | January 14, 2009 11:06 AM
Men don't have to tattoo their titles on their chests or foreheads - men and women assume the Men have a fancy title. And the assumption is that Women don't.
Telling women to show off science is just more bullshit for "live with it", oh well. Sol, you may have gotten your title by hand outs and pull ups as part of male privilege. I worked fucking hard for mine, and I'm proud to hang my degrees on my wall just like I'm proud to list my papers on my CV. And when a student calls me Dr. JC in the lecture hall, it shows me respect because us chicks don't get much of that respect stuff that's so easily handed out to my male counterparts.
Posted by: jc | January 14, 2009 11:24 AM
JC, If you knew how hard I worked to become a scientist you wouldn't talk about handouts and pull ups. My Ph.D. is simply a licence to practice science in the lab and teach students in the classroom. It is not different from a licence to drive a big rig on the highway or to operate a mechanic shop or a restaurant. If you think that a Ph.D. is more than a pilot licence and that because you are a woman, your pilot licence is less recognized, I think this is just BS. But be my guest and stick the licence on your lab coat and maybe even place an ad in the local newspaper that JC is actually Dr. JC. I'm sure you'll get much recognition and respect, especially when the next Red Snapper is being wrapped with that newspaper in the fish market.
Posted by: S. Rivlin | January 14, 2009 12:59 PM
If you knew how hard I worked to become a scientist you wouldn't talk about handouts and pull ups.
Look Sol, you aren't getting the privilege thing, no biggie, most people have trouble. But try to listen.
Yeah, the science gig is hard and takes a lot of effort. For almost everyone. And somebody else ALWAYS has it easier than you do or did.
You have to concentrate really really hard on the "all else being equal" part. The stats, such as they are, and the constant torrent of personal experiences make it very difficult to ignore the fact that all-else-equal a woman has a harder time than a man making it in science.
To continually point out where your particular circumstances made your path harder than some cherry-picked individual woman or some categorical grouping of women who are entirely unlike you (say in a different field, native where you are immigrant, whatthefuckhaveyou) is missing the point. How do the women scientists who are just like you, save being women, have it on average?
Posted by: DrugMonkey | January 14, 2009 2:20 PM
Rivlin, you're an obscurantist ass.
Posted by: Azkyroth | January 14, 2009 2:45 PM
This is called the "Rob Knop Fallacy".
Posted by: Comrade PhysioProf | January 14, 2009 3:40 PM
DM,
As I responded earlier to Becca, I do get the "privilege" part. What I am saying is that whining about it won't bring about the change we all want. Personal experience is an important part of our world view. For instance, I began a Ph.D. thesis with a mentor who offered me a paid postion in his lab (hard money in a research institute where I did the research). For me that was a most important part of my agreeing to work there because I already have had a family and three children to support. A year and a half into my doctoral thesis, he recruited a young female (unmarried) as a doctoral student and offered her my paid position. Dumbfounded, I explained to him that I will not be able to continue to work in his lab without the salary I was collecting. His response was, "sit down and apply for a fellowship instead." I threw away a year and a half worth of research and started all over again somewhere else. I could carry a grudge against the young woman who knew about my difficulties, but did not reject my mentor's offer to her; I could hold a grudge against my mentor, which I did for a while; I could whine or I could simply clench my teeth and move on, which I did. I found out later that my mentor was a real asshole womanizer. I also found out that several of the women he womanized were willing partners, and thus, in this particular situation, privileged. I am coming from a long line of underprivilege people and, at least, for the people belonging to that line, being underprivileged has been the main driving power for success.
Another thing that I found to be somewhat irritating here is this "group whining", a call to all women in academia, whether or not they were unrecognized by these aweful privileged male academians who have no need to flash their title, to come and whine together.
And, of course, if you somehow dare to say something against this whining party you are an obscurantist ass.
Posted by: S. Rivlin | January 14, 2009 3:46 PM
Repeatedly ignoring the actual points made by commenters and having the argument you want to have will do that, yeah.
Posted by: Azkyroth | January 14, 2009 4:16 PM
Sol #106:
What I am saying is that whining about it won't bring about the change we all want.
How can you have three kids and not think that whining doesn't get results?
Of course it does. See comment #65, and I'm with CPP.
Posted by: JHB | January 14, 2009 4:45 PM
Sol #94:
Maybe academicians should wear a name tag and a rank (Assist. Prof, Assoc. Prof, Full Prof on their "uniforms").
Quite like this idea, 'though. I'm for different coloured all-in-ones, a la Star Trek. And maybe phasers.
Posted by: JHB | January 14, 2009 4:48 PM
JHB,
Converting CPP's position with female whining is not a victory that I would chalk up for this strategy.
My kids learned early that whining will get them nowhere! ;)
Posted by: S. Rivlin | January 14, 2009 5:10 PM
"My kids learned early that whining will get them nowhere! ;)"
/whining^2
Proving, once again, that sometimes the pupils exceed the 'master' ;)
Posted by: Becca | January 14, 2009 5:39 PM
As an untenured person, I'm totally against the use of Starfleet uniforms for academic rank. I'm 99% certain that they'd give me the red uniform, and, well, adios.
Posted by: Alex | January 14, 2009 6:04 PM
Firm conviction: do what you want for a title, only a fool will say what others should do. I saw Sir John Bell, BM, DM, FRS, Regius Professor of Medicine, in a lecture last year. I expect that he goes by Professor Bell, Dr. Bell, Sir John, Jack, and the long title, depending on context. Which ones should we insist he not use? Which one is too pretentious? I'll bet the full title that he was introduced with is not how he's addressed in the lab, or by his grad students - but it would be insulting to say he should never use it.
Posted by: stewart | January 15, 2009 12:45 AM
It is easy to say titles are pretentious and proper address won't lead to respect when you are in the "in" group, no matter how hard your particular path was. Titles are used to put people in their place all the time, particularly "uppity" underrrepresented minorities.
In several of the sessions at major international conferences in my field(s) in the physical sciences, ALL of the female speakers were introduced as Ms. (including the invited ones) and ALL of the male speakers were introduced as Dr., even though there was a mix of faculty, other scientists, postdocs, and students presenting. This has happened at different meetings in related fields.
This has happened to me several times, so I now put my professional title on my title slide (as a young scientist, I definitely want to meet potential collaborators at meetings--this won't happen if they think I am a grad student). I think it stems from the assumption that men are scientists and women are students/technicians. Hell, I've even been asked to make sure the coffee gets refilled at a meeting I was presenting at, and wearing an attendee badge. I was one of 6 women in a meeting of 800+ people (I counted at the plenary session during a dull moment).
This was my first semester teaching at an R1 level university after several years in the National Lab system, and I hadn't considered how to handle students who call me Mrs, Ms, or Miss (I look young). I really appreciate the advice on how to handle this. Student evaluations go in our tenure files, and I have read the studies about perceived expertise and perceived "level" in the hierarchy. I don't want to give away any advantage I might have! Besides, today's students are tomorrow's session chairs, so they may as well learn now to address female scientists as Dr.
Posted by: JaneDoh | January 15, 2009 9:50 AM
I have yet to get my Ph.D. (but I'm after it, alright!), but I can already feel gender stereotypes creeping in... For instance, whenever me and my fiance meet new people and mention living in graduate housing community, everyone assumes that HE is the student! Then they're surprised to find out the he actually stays at home with our offspring. When will they learn?
Posted by: KK | January 17, 2009 1:24 AM
You can either tatooe "Dr." on your forehead or just be patient; 44 years ago MLK was fighting for the right of African Americans to vote and today we have an African American President. Those assholes who still hold that a woman is lesser than a man will pass away or become a minority.
Posted by: S. Rivlin | January 17, 2009 9:06 PM
There is no 50% or anything close to it in any aspect of Earth Science and Geology that I am aware of. Geology students were 25:1 or more men in 1975 with zero women professors; geologists in industry are 10 to 1 men presently. Improvements are that we do have a few women professors in the earth sciences here and there and we do have women working in male-dominated fields.
Posted by: Silver Fox | January 18, 2009 9:36 AM
Try typing profesora.
HJ
Posted by: Bing McGhandi | January 22, 2009 2:09 PM
William the Coroner, @75:
The reason that the "formal" mode of English address for married women includes the first and last names of her husband is because of the medieval legal notion of "la femme couvert," in which the married woman is "covered" by her husband's more powerful identity. Because, of course, he's fully human, and she isn't.
And how do I know this? Why, I have a PhD in medieval studies, and was just teaching this (in the context of the Wife of Bath's Tale) the other day. My own title came up, when I asked students why those who don't know me insist on addressing me as "Mrs".
Brief funny: I had a root canal last spring, and put "Dr." on all my paperwork at the endodontist's. We were looking at X-rays and I commented that the material he was using was new to me. "Is it a polymer?" I asked. "Yes!" he said, "are you a chemist?" "Nope, I'm a medievalist," I replied.
Posted by: The Rebel Lettriste | January 30, 2009 11:43 AM
May I point out to the few commenters who believe that insisting our students use our titles (rather than "Ms." or "Hey") when they address us is pretentious: In order to be properly pretentious, I'd have to be pretending something. And my Ph.D. is not pretend. If students address my male colleagues as "Professor XY," then I damn well expect to be called "Professor XX." Nothing pretentious about it.
Posted by: Notorious Ph.D. | January 31, 2009 7:21 PM
Yes, students need to call us by our titles-I've talked about why here:
http://www.delaneykirk.com/2007/07/professor-amand.html
Posted by: Delaney Kirk | February 4, 2009 10:02 PM