First, I have to apologize to the author of this question. It is one heck of a question and I have officially been sitting on it for eight days. It's not because I didn't want to answer, or because I was busy with other things. It's just one heck of a question and I wanted to offer the best answer I could. Here's my crack at it...
Dearest Dr. Isis,I, humble reader of your blog and admirer of your hot science and shoes, come to you with a difficult question, but one that I have no doubt you can illuminante with your infinite wisdom. It involves revealing personal information to a postdoc advisor and the age-old question of how much is too much.
I started a new postdoc a short time ago. In that time, due in part to the stress of a new job, I suffered a relapse of the depression that I've experienced, and successfully overcome, in the past. I am now getting treatment and am on the upswing and am confident I will overcome it again. But I fear that the past few months have severely damaged my career.
From my advisor's point of view, I've been a less-than-stellar new hire -- not exactly the go-getter s/he had anticipated. I've taken eons to accomplish small tasks, I've not settled on my main project yet, and I've avoided many of the social activities of the lab. I know that s/he has noticed, but s/he has not approached me to try to understand the reasons. I fear that s/he is judging me as a postdoc and as a scientist.
I need my advisor to be "on my side" for career advancement; having a disapproving advisor is obviously not a good situation. So maybe telling my advisor about my depression will help explain some of my un-productivity and s/he will refrain from judging my work for a little while longer. At the same time, I feel that my personal problems are none of his/her business, and that I should be judged solely on my merits. And so if I've been disappointing thus far, I'll just need to work twice as hard to make up for it in the coming months. And if this works, s/he will never know about my "problem". Maybe s/he will just chalk it up to "difficulty adjusting to a new lab", and will maybe forget about it by the time letter-writing comes around.
So the question is this: should I tell my advisor about my depression? Even though s/he would never admit it, s/he may hold my depression against me when it comes time to recommend me for jobs. Maybe I'll be viewed as too unstable to succeed or too risky a hire. But if I don't tell, and if I can't repair the negative first impression I've already made, then I'll be just as f$^*ed.
I would be ever grateful for your sage advice.
--climbing out between a rock and a hard place
I won't lie that my very first instinct in response to this question was to tell you to rush into your advisor's office, lay it all out there, and get a great big hug. Why? Because, for as often as I completely lose my junk in the lab and say bad words (are you reading this, Isis's little lab chickens?), and for as much of a prima donna as I know I am to work under, I genuinely love and adore the people in the lab and I want to see them be successful. I would hope that if there were some way I could help, that they would be open with me. Conversely, I feel able to be open with the scientist in the food chain more senior than me. I was able to discuss the loss of my child with him and he has shared some very personal things with me.
But that is bad, bad advice and you should not listen to it. Just because that is the way I feel, does not mean that is how everyone feels and for me to give you Isis-specific advice would be a level of narcissism that even I'm not comfortable with. So, before we go any further, there are two things I want to address...
1) You're mental illness is exactly that. It is an illness. You're not just sad. You're not lazy. You didn't choose to be ill. You have been dealing with, and are recovering from, a genuine illness. First, let me say how happy I am that you are on the mend. It is a shame that there is a stigma associated with mental illness. It's the dirty little secret in many of our homes and families that we don't feel comfortable talking about because of how we might be judged. If you'd have had cancer, this would be much more of a non-issue, wouldn't it? You wouldn't have chosen to have cancer, right? Those dealing with major psychiatric illness did not chose their illness either. Yet, there is still an attitude from many that those suffering from mental illness could chose to get better, to function more normally, if they had the willpower. That's a tough stigma to battle.
Still, major depression, and a number of other disorders, are recognized under the Americans with Disabilities Act. As such, you have certain rights. Which brings me to the second thing I wanted to address before I get to my advice.
2) Postdocs are not non-entities It bothers me that often postdocs and grad students feel like slaves to their individual lords and masters mentors, without recourse or a place to turn for help. That their fate is dependent on the whim of a single individual. No one deserves to be treated that way. I worked as an industrial scientist for several years before returning to academia, and this treatment seems to be unique to academia.
So, what's the point? You may be a postdoc, but you are also probably an employee of your MRU. Even if you're being paid by your advisor's grant. Unless you've got some kind of weird, back alley arrangement, you are not the property of your mentor and you have the right to be treated fairly in dealing with your illness.
So what are you entitled to?
- Accommodation under the ADA (really, read it. It's quite good. Also, check here.)
- The right not to be discriminated against based on your illness
- The right to have this kept private by your employer. This means not having it disclosed to someone you might be applying for your next job with.
- The right to accommodation under the Family and Medical Leave Act
So, do you tell your advisor? Maybe. But, your first visit should be to the human resources department of your MRU. Let them know what is going on so that you can document your illness with them. They may be able to offer MRU-specific guidance. Also, if you do tell your advisor, and that is a really personal decision that only you can make, you have as many of the appropriate protections as possible.
XOXOXOX,
Isis
Education
Life Science
Comments
Best wishes to the person that asked the question. An initial reaction---just keep on doing the best work you can do and that when you have something solid no one will really remember whether you were supposed to be a go-getter or not. Take care of yourself in the meantime.
Maybe Isis' advice would work, if not pursued to the nth degree? Let your advisor know that you've been having a hard time in your personal life but that you feel confident going ahead. That provides some acknowledgement that you know you can live up to higher standards than you feel that you've been meeting so far. Then maybe you can establish a more personal rapport with your advisor who might be able to offer you more support, even if you don't share the specifics about your illness. If you've been feeling depressed, dow, sad, or anxious, perhaps he or she is aware that something might not be right anyhow.
I hope this helps. . .
I didn't know about the ADA protection and the others. It makes me feel that something is being done right for once.
Posted by: Adam M. Goldstein | June 19, 2009 12:51 AM
I also suffer from major depression, and have done for 40 years. My managers at various academic institutions have ranged from sympathetic to hostile. One even tried to have me fired until the HR manager pointed out that exposed the institute to a massive lawsuit. I didn't even have to point out that I would make it very public. Nevertheless, she did manage to fire one of my staff who developed schizophrenia, and I wanted that poor girl to sue. Australians! We don't sue when we're in the right.
But I have worked for managers (and tried to myself be that kind of manager) who treated it like a family member getting ill. It all depends on the supervisor. Isis' advice is exactly right. I would only add that you talk to the union's advisors too, so that if things get nasty they and you are prepared. All the policies and laws in the world won't prevent someone who is perverse from acting badly.
I reinforce Isis' comment: you are not to blame. This is an illness, not a choice. Too bad if being human inconveniences others.
Posted by: John S. Wilkins | June 19, 2009 1:24 AM
there are ways to disclose the mental state of a postdoc to others without .. stating it explicitly ... i would be extremely cautious about revealing anything because yes, the ADA protects you, but in reality, if push comes to shove, the fact is that you have to PROVE you've been discriminated against, and that involves a courtroom and lots of people testifying. people who are also your colleagues .. i hate to say this, but it really is difficult to deal with being labeled a 'troublemaker', even when it is never said to your face, or perhaps especially when it is never said to your face.
Posted by: "GrrlScientist" | June 19, 2009 1:31 AM
Mental illness is just that, an illness. And many of us in the science tribe suffer from it. I know 2 professors that have committed suicide because of depression, and that is in my small circle.
A postdoc in my oldPhD Lab also suffers from depression. She told the supervisor and he was very understanding. Mind you this was after she had been there for awhile, but still I hope that helps.
Posted by: ScientistMother | June 19, 2009 2:43 AM
I'm usually a lurker, but the original letter dragged me out of the woodwork. I'm a grad student, not a postdoc. That said, I have experienced multiple severe depressive episodes throughout my academic career. I started out in an MD/PhD program when my bipolar depression popped up again. The med school tried (feebly), but medicine doesn't care for illness within its own ranks. Luckily I was already working with my thesis advisor, who managed to convince the graduate school to keep me on as a PhD student.
My current advisor knows pretty much everything about my battles with bipolar disorder and lupus. The combo doesn't make for the most energetic electrophysiologist, but at least she knows that if I'm having a slow week, I'm not just slacking off. She makes me pull back when I'm working to exhaustion. When I'm really depressed, she even picks me up at home, just to make sure that I get out of bed and go to the lab. I've been really lucky, and slowly drifting back toward remission.
There aren't many resources to help people with mental illness navigate working in high-pressure academia. Seven years of higher education (undergrad, med, grad) while dealing with an MI taught me a few tips that will hopefully be helpful, even for a postdoc. Tell your advisor as much as you feel comfortable telling. Your advisor (hopefully) thinks you're smart and full of potential, and s/he is probably wondering what the heck is going on. People can be more receptive than one might expect. Be sure to emphasize that you have a medical illness and that you're actively involved in treatment. Making that clear is pretty much what has kept me in school. It is absolutely crucial that you present it not as an excuse, but as a factor impeding your performance. Outside your lab, there might be student-life deans or counselors that you can access as a postdoc. They can be a great resource to guide you through the process of disclosing your illness to your advisor.
No matter what you decide to do, be sure to take care of your health first. Take your meds, see your therapist, eat your veggies, get some fresh air, or whatever keeps the boat afloat. It's hard to get support in the academic community because no one wants to talk about mental illness, but there are lots of people pulling for you. Let us know how it works out.
Posted by: PharmGrad | June 19, 2009 4:58 AM
When I work with a team, I do expect my team members to let me know if they need to work less for a while. I do not need to know why, but estimates on what they can and cannot do and for how long are of course helpful.
I also have seen postdocs and students with mental problems and there was always a big understanding and help. Heck, we helped a faculty member whose depression came with an attendant alcohol problem - which ended up killing him. And we helped another who got anorexic (yes, middle-aged males can be anorexic too) and had to be hospitalized.
So, when last month I started antidepressants, I just called the head of the department and told him, adding that I would need to work substantially less for a while. I then called my favorite student and told him to inform everyone else. Everyone has been very, very supportive.
I think for my own professional speciality, mental disorders are very very common.
Posted by: estraven | June 19, 2009 4:59 AM
I think one small step towards destigmatization of mental illnesses would be to stop saying "suffers from".
A lot of people live with a mental illness all their life which appears less worthy of living if it's only associated with suffering.
Someone bipolar for example will not suffer anymore when he/she is getting the right meds, but they are *still* bipolar.
Another problem with this negative association is that people can not "come out" with their mental illness, because the reaction could be: "This can't be true you seem perfectly alright and happy!"
There's a great video that shows how these negative stereotypes can lead to disability workplace discrimination:
Posted by: Gonzo | June 19, 2009 5:45 AM
Oops, link doesn't show up (forgot to click the preview button.)
Here's the link:
You Tube Video
Posted by: Gonzo | June 19, 2009 5:48 AM
To the writer of this letter, I really feel for you in your rock-and-hard-place situation. I have a labmate that I am really close to who struggles with depression. I would guess that the great majority of scientists know someone in science who deals with these issues, so please don't feel like you are isolated or the only scientist-type with these problems.
I think the decision to tell, or not, depends in large part on what you know of your boss. I like the idea (from Adam) of telling him/her that you've had a hard time with some personal issues lately, and you realize it affected your productivity, but you're working through those and are really going to sink your teeth into lab work. If you are worried about the potential "stigma," I think this approach largely avoids it, as this type of thing happens fairly often when someone has a sick parent, or a bad break-up, and these type of life events don't seem to carry the negative stigma.
Posted by: anon | June 19, 2009 8:11 AM
I wonder if the gender ambiguity of the mentor (and letter writer) was done by the letter writer or Dr. Isis. Perhaps Dr. Isis, in her sexy wisdom, deliberately chose not to confuse the issue of gender relations in her response? Looking back at my relationships with mentors, I think I would have been more comfortable disclosing something like that to a female.
Posted by: madkathy | June 19, 2009 8:27 AM
To the letter writer: I'm sorry that you haven't been well, and that the idea you haven't been performing up to standard as a postdoc is adding to your stress levels. I hope you continue to make a strong recovery.
I am a grad student and I happen to feel very safe with my adviser, so I would probably opt to disclose something like this to her. I think that even if you don't share the exact nature of your illness, it would be good to take a proactive stance and say something to your adviser. Going into his/her office and saying, "Hi, I realize that I haven't been very productive lately, and I wanted you to know that's because I've been having personal/health problems. It's not that I don't care about the lab, but I've had other things to deal with. I'm doing better now, and I hope you'll see the improvement in my work as a result."
To me, this shows that you hold yourself to a high standard and you're not slinking around hoping that no one notices your problem. But, I know this sort of openness is not always easy to achieve, and I've had situations in the past where I should have said something along these lines to a supervisor, but didn't feel comfortable. If you need reassuring or additional advice, talking to your therapist or to someone from HR who deals with disability accommodations can be very helpful.
Good luck to you, and feel better.
Posted by: Laura | June 19, 2009 8:37 AM
I think Isis and the other commenters here are giving really great advice. i would add that if you think your mentor will be hostile or judgmental of mental illness, or you just aren't ready to reveal all of that, you can even just tell your supervisor that you know your productivity has not been very high these last few months, and you want them to know that it's because you've been having some health problems. Unless you're asking for things like time off or deadline extensions, and as long as you just want understanding about the issue, that will probably be enough information - if your supervisor asks for the details, you can judge if you want to share them or if you would just rather say that you aren't comfortable talking about it right now, but you're on the mend. With a supervisor that has a relatively normal level of compassion, that option might make a huge difference and could be a little easier for you than sharing everything.
Posted by: volcanista | June 19, 2009 8:42 AM
Kudos for recognizing, and treating, this condition. I once heard a psychiatry professor describe depression in blunt terms as "a dangerous disease with a 60% mortality rate." I personally lost my ex-wife to this disease 21 years ago (she was my ex at the time, primarily because of depression) to suicide.
It seems to me that as an employee of an MRU, there should be a pretty robust Employee Assistance Program. You are paying for it. Use it.
I wish the young post-doc all the best, and would be interested in hearing how her situation resolved.
Posted by: TGAP Dad | June 19, 2009 9:03 AM
It is also most likely the case that your institution has a psychologists/psychiatrists that you can talk to in confidential to get their take on the situation... Good luck post-doc!
Posted by: Denis Alexander | June 19, 2009 9:28 AM
Much more important than telling your PI or supervisor is talking about it with your mental health practitioner. If you don't have one, that is what you should be working on getting. (that goes for everyone who is, or who thinks they might be depressed)
If depression is adversely affecting your life, including work, it needs to be dealt with effectively. Often dealing with it effectively means keeping it a secret because there are many asshats who will take that information and use it to bully you to try and make it worse. Stress does make depression worse, so telling the wrong person will make it worse.
Most MRUs have pretty good mental health departments because parents of undergrads get upset when their children commit suicide. Inadequately treated depression is a leading cause of death, #11 in the US, over 32,000 in 2005. There are good and effective treatments for depression. There are plenty of meds that work, different types of talk therapy work too. The combination works best.
It is unfortunate that there is so much stigma about mental health problems. Most of that stigma is generated by people trying to bully those with mental health problems. They do that because the greater the stigma, the more effective their bullying is at damaging the people they are trying to bully.
A good work environment is going to be good for everyone. If it isn't good for everyone then it isn't good for anyone. This is the generic problem of abuse and exploitation by the Kyriarchy. If a lab exploits people for any reason, it is more likely to exploit people for mental health reasons. Such labs (and such work environments) are to be avoided if possible.
Posted by: daedalus2u | June 19, 2009 9:33 AM
i've made it through several episodes of major depression throughout my life, and also deal with post-traumatic stress disorder. (you want something that screams to a fever pitch when you're uber-stressed out about writing a dissertation, this is it.)
having recovered from the depression every time previously, i figured i had it covered when i joined my mentor's lab. unfortunately, this was a situation where being really on top of things was beyond imperative. and at first i absolutely flopped. and i saw it happening, watching myself do these things, feeling so hopeless.
i decided to sit down with my mentor and explain my depression situation. here are the reasons:
1. we had a lot of previous interactions, and i had grown to trust her.
2. she is very open to most personal discussions, and is generally very supportive when one of her lab members genuinely needs help.
3. she is interested in more than just the data output of her lab members: she also wants them to succeed.
i came from a lab run by the mentor from hell, who had very different ideals, and so was extremely conflicted about bringing this up. but it went well. my mentor understood completely and offered to be helpful in any way she could.
your results may vary, depending on your mentor. consider carefully whether your mentor would be receptive to a full disclosure, or just a mention that you are coping with a medical issue and are seeking treatment for it. (my alternate plan was to just mention it as a 'medical issue'.)
not communicating and just continuing on this way will likely damage your relationship. your mentor needs to know if something else is going on that affects your work right now, and that you are taking care of yourself.
Posted by: presently anon | June 19, 2009 9:52 AM
I'm in my first year of my PhD and I have depression. It wasn't so much that I decided to tell my supervisor as my supervisor sat me down and told me he thought I had depression, but he is a very supportive person and I feel like the support I have gained by telling him about my problems has allowed me to set myself straight, feel like I have a new start and push myself to not just fall back into the depression but, instead, to achieve something this time. Of course, it does depend on you and your supervisor. I already knew from other interactions that my supervisor was a very supportive person, and I knew I was floundering. Talking to them about it let me start putting myself right, it was definetley the right decision for me, but every situation is different.
Posted by: Lotus | June 19, 2009 10:22 AM
I don't have depression, but I do have a chronic medical condition that you can't see by looking at me (which developed immediately before I started grad school, and I'll have it for the rest of my life).
When I started in grad school I sat down and talked to my advisor about it, which was terrifying- he is not a warm and fuzzy type of person, and at that point I barely knew him. I wanted him to know that even though in that moment I wasn't sure what I would need in the long run, it was very likely that there would be periods where my schedule was off, and I'd be gone for doctors appts more than other people, and that at some point I might need some accommodations. We didn't hug, or cry, or skip through a field of daisies together afterwards. But, I can't say how glad I am I did that- one thing I was worried about was the position you're in now, where you are in what is (for you) an unusual phase of lowered productivity, and you know its for a good reason but no one else does. If you give the reason post-hoc, its less convincing somehow, or sounds like an excuse. By telling my advisor, and then proceeding to work as hard as I possibly could, when I did need accommodations and a flexible schedule (which I most certainly did over the years), he knew ahead what the deal was and that I wasn't a slacker. I think a lot of it is in how you treat it- I'm very practical, and treated it as a practical issue- like, I'm a productive person, I have this problem, I'm going to continue to work as hard as I can but there might be some roadblocks. I think that treating it practically and not discussing the emotional aspects of it (as profound as they might be) is important, and probably especially important for mental illness which has all the stigma everyone else has mentioned. You have a work relationship with him, all he needs to know is about that aspect of it. I think it is good to tell your direct supervisor, especially if its changing your performance (although, I barely told anyone else in the lab, as it was none of their business). As for the recommendation letters- just give him plenty of other stuff to write about- be productive, collaborate, lay down some smoking hot science... that will take care of itself! I've read my letters from my grad advisor- they don't say I'm awesome because I've overcome xyz degenerative disease, they say I'm awesome because in the end the work I did WAS awesome.
Of course, this is excluding the possibility of your mentor being a really horrible person, which is always possible, and in which case maybe this wouldn't work. But, I just wanted to point out that you don't have to be BFFs with your mentor to find a way to make this conversation work.
Posted by: anon | June 19, 2009 10:52 AM
I have been living with depression for years. My first prolonged episode developed after the birth of my daughter. The symptoms were "masked" by my return to residency (hard to figure out if you are excessively tired in that situation) and I had great support from my colleagues at that time. Everything fell apart when I moved for fellowship. I lost my peer support, and I had no one to talk to in my section. About anything. My faculty clearly knew I was depressed, but I couldn't believe it could happen to me. I finally decided to see a psychiatrist before quitting fellowship, and medication saved me.
Unfortunately, it was only after months of misery that I found out my father has had depression for years. If he had told me, I might have been less resistant to seeking help.
I have been open with my children about this illness. I have subsequently had more episodes and I am OK with taking my pill for the rest of my life. I have no side effects from it. Depression is not really about sadness; it's about feeling that you are swimming in mud, that every activity of life requires SO MUCH EFFORT that you may as well not bother. The drugs make me feel that I CAN address the usual ups and downs of life rather than collapsing in a heap.
So how did starting my fellowship with a major mental illness ultimately affect my career? First, many of the faculty were impressed by my turn-around. Once I got treated, I started kicking butt and churned out some kick-ass papers. Long-term I have had success and setbacks, but overall I have been happy with my career and life.
The goddess has given good advice. Know what your rights are within your institution. Then use your judgement about your mentor. If someone in my lab told me about this, I would say do what you can, get better, and be successful. I probably wouldn't hug you (I'm just not a touchy person), but the sentiment would be there. Other faculty would prefer not to know, or would judge you in some way. There may also be someone on your campus who knows your mentor who could guide you as to which approach is best.
Get treatment, get better, and succeed. We are all pulling for you!
Posted by: Pascale | June 19, 2009 10:58 AM
Quasi off topic:
"Postdocs are not non-entities... this treatment seems to be unique to academia."
"I would only add that you talk to the union's advisors too, so that if things get nasty they and you are prepared. All the policies and laws in the world won't prevent someone who is perverse from acting badly."
"Goodbye to my Juan, farewell Roselita
Adios mes amigos, Jesus e Maria"
Posted by: becca | June 19, 2009 11:06 AM
I was going to say exactly what volcanista suggested - in fact, I had it all typed out earlier, but then didn't post it because of the possibility that the conversation could then have the advisor asking for specifics, the student not wanting to share, and then the advisor getting miffed about the secrecy. I still like it as an option, but be aware that it could end up in full disclosure anyway if the advisor is nosy and impolite.
Posted by: Carlie | June 19, 2009 11:29 AM
I have a related question that I'd like to toss into the mix, if anyone has any advice or similar experiences.
I'm an addict in recovery. I got clean relatively young, returned to school and have had a stellar academic record. I am currently applying to graduate programs and think I have a pretty good shot at getting into at least one of my top choices. I have the grades, excellent references, a great research position, experience as an undergraduate TA and as a peer tutor.
Here's the thing. My past includes three years of being homeless and a significant criminal record, all drug related. I would never lie, but many applications don't ask if you have felonies. Additionally, some schools have asked to explain any gaps in the employment/academic record. There is a 6 year gap where I neither worked or attended school (late teens, early twenties).
Do I disclose this? At what point? Does anyone have any experience with this?
My undergraduate adviser is completely aware of my entire history, as I have developed a strong relationship with her and felt comfortable sharing necessary pieces of my history with her. I thought it couldn't hurt to get more opinions on it though...
Posted by: anon | June 19, 2009 11:55 AM
I think Dr. Isis's advice is spot on. I'm not scrolling back up through the comments, but I know someone suggested framing it as "a personal dilemma" or something like that.
PLEASE DON'T DO THAT. Work being negatively impacted by a "personal" problem suggests an inability to balance priorities and leave home at home in order to focus. "Personal problems" are NOT protected by the ADA. (Trust me, someone just got fired from my company because her personal problems were affecting her work.)
If you have problems with depression (as I also do), it is better to follow exactly what Isis said - disclose it to HR first, and THEN to your advisor. That way you're protected regardless of how s/he reacts.
And in all likelihood, your disclosure will be met with sympathy, understanding, and possibly even a bit of relief that s/he didn't hire someone who just plain sucks. ;P
Posted by: JLK | June 19, 2009 12:09 PM
Anon @ #22 - I don't know what field you're in and it may be different from my experience, but I can tell you that if you're applying for assistantships of any kind, you WILL in all likelihood be asked about felonies and drug possessions, because an app for assistantship is an employment application. If you're applying for other financial aid that requires a FAFSA, you will be asked on that application as well.
It's a very tough situation. The only advice I have is to be prepared to frame it as a huge obstacle you have overcome in order to reach your goals. But I have no advice for if and/or when you should disclose it.
Posted by: JLK | June 19, 2009 12:17 PM
anon 22 - In your case, I might suggest being entirely upfront about it. Being cagey or reluctant to disclose might make people wonder if you're ashamed that it's a current problem, or something you still haven't gotten over, or something of the sort. If you frame it as JLK said and aren't at all shy about it, that shows that you're over it and moved on, your self-esteem is more than adequate to handle your past, and you're sure enough of your performance and potential to not worry about it. Heck, it would make a killer of an application essay, triumphing over bad circumstances kind of thing.
Posted by: Carlie | June 19, 2009 12:26 PM
Tell your advisor that you have been ill. Period. And that if you've disappointed thus far, you'll just have to work harder over the remaining time in post-doc to make up for it. Tell her "thank you" for her understanding (whether she has been or not) and LEAVE her office. If she asks for details, you can tell her politely but firmly that "it's personal". Then work hard to make up for the last few months.
Whether you or I or anyone else looks at depression as an illness like any other, there are way too many people out there who look down on depression as a weakness for you to take the risk of revealing all. Plus, word might get out: Even if your adviser's understanding, the next person on the grapevine might not be.
There are gender things associated with this as well. Men who admit to depression are really likely to be seen as babies, and women who are depressed are likely to be seen as neurotic, both on an ongoing basis--whether s/he is currently depressed or not.
And you can find this used against you somewhere down the road. As in your commendation letter: "S/he's great except for the first few months, when she was depressed."
Or, when you find yourself in a professional difference of opinion with someone and s/he uses your "mental illness" to blow you off.
I wish, as a clinical psychologist, that I could say, "Everybody out of the closet!" but that's just not the way the world works. Yet.
Way back in the day when I was a lowly practicum student, my supervisor, a clinician, had elective surgery. Her supervisor, a clinician, disapproved of what she was doing, and slammed her on her next evaluation for her "excessive absenteeism." I know, not the same issue, but it is a demonstration of why you don't give people explanations for anything. Their feelings about whatever it is that you are dealing with will inevitably seep into their professional opinions of/relations with you.
Once you have been there a bit longer, and are feeling better and seeing things more clearly than one typically does when depressed, you will be in a better position to judge who is safe to share with and who is not.
Good luck!
Posted by: Virginia S. Wood, Psy.D. | June 19, 2009 12:36 PM
Probably the most sensible, rational, professional thing to do is to go straight to HR. Still, I can't help but wonder how much time this person has to straighten the work out, and whether it really could be done without involving the higher-ups in this knowledge. (I also agree with whoever said that the sex of the writer would definitely factor into how well it goes over).
Posted by: Cara | June 19, 2009 12:40 PM
I, too, am a recovering alcoholic who got sober before grad school. I did not include it in my grad school essay because you never, ever give someone a reason to toss your app in the trash.
Of course if you are asked about felonies and such you have to reveal them. But I do not advise volunteering this stuff up front. In fact, if the situation is appropriate, you can leave that part of the application blank and when you get to an interview and the interviewer says, "I notice you left this blank," then you can explain--with the benefit of (a) having already talked to them for a few minutes and establishing some rapport so that they have a positive frame to put this in, and (b) you can "read" their response to the information and adjust your angle of approach as needed.
There were at least three of us (plus one prof) in my program. One was out and all over the place with it, and it didn't seem to do him any harm. One was slightly out about it, but did not make a big deal. I kept my discussions about recovery to the other three. I can't see that it made any difference. If anything, the person I had the hardest time with was the recovering prof, but even that I think was more about gender and power issues than about our addictions.
It says in the Big Book that when we are taking our 9th Step we do not lead with our chins! (Or at least it said that in the edition I got sober with.) My advice to you, then, is "Don't lead with your chin." This is, of course, not a 9th Step but I think the principle holds true.
Good luck!
Posted by: Sutton (simply) | June 19, 2009 12:59 PM
"spot on." "Alcoholism as an illness." References back to mental illness? 17 years is enough. Too much power for any group to have over an individual. Why?
Posted by: Wish I was Anonymous | June 19, 2009 1:11 PM
Thanks, Postdoc and Dr. Isis, for bringing up this problem, since many scientists face it at some point along their career path. I have a history of depression and, like Lotus, experienced a severe bout during my first year of grad school. Luckily for me, the depression turned out to be related to my method of birth control, but unluckily, it took much longer than it should have to figure this out, since I'd had depressive episodes in the past. I lost about half a year of productivity and I am still trying to catch up two years later.
I never felt comfortable talking about my problems with my adviser - to put things gently, he is NOT warm and cuddly. Don't get me wrong - he does care in his way and just expects that his students will take care of themselves academically and physically/mentally. I certainly would have talked to him if I had needed to take a leave of absence or had been hospitalized, but thankfully, this was not necessary. I did find support from other friends and mentors in my department and community, who were very understanding and supportive. I have learned that many more people than you would expect use the counseling services at my school with some regularity and I have not felt stigmatized by my peers at all. I do, however, have the same worry as the Postdoc, that my adviser got the initial impression that I was unstable/lazy/a bad decision. It's hard to catch up and can be very frustrating and disappointing for someone who is used to overachieving! I'm not on medication now, but I do go talk to a counselor at the health center when I feel things slipping. I also take proactive measures like getting enough sleep, exercising, and trying to limit stress (as much as is possible for a grad student...). I am open to medication if things get bad again. Good luck to everyone out there who also has this problem. You are not alone!
Posted by: mlw | June 19, 2009 3:25 PM
Dr. Isis & Crew:
I just wanted to extend a word of thanks for sharing this letter. I've especially enjoyed reading the comments. I admit I was very ignorant about how common these issues were in the scientific community. I say this as a grad student who chose to "suffer in silence" rather than ever discussing my mental illness with my adviser or my labmates (I've worked way too hard to show them what a bad-ass female super-student I am in my predominately male lab to show them any sign of "weakness"). So, thank you all for sharing your stories. Very nice to know I'm not alone!
Posted by: jenny | June 19, 2009 4:02 PM
Thanks to people who discussed the issue of addiction (alcoholism) in grad programs.
It's a funny thing, I've been employed at University since I came back, although as an undergraduate. None of the employment applications have ever asked about criminal histories. So even though at first I couldn't have gotten a job at 7-11 (it's been long enough now), I was able to work in a women's resource center and other similar positions at school.
The FAFSA allows drug crimes, you just have to have completed treatment. Also, you only have to reveal the crime if it was an actual drug charge.
My undergrad adviser's whole family was in recovery, and she was really understanding about it. However a friend of mine had a professor who had a sister in recovery and he hated recovering addicts and recovery programs.
Anyways, mental illness and addiction issues are so tricky. They carry such stigma, it is hard to gauge how people will react until you know them a little.
I feel like addressing it in an app. essay would only work if it was relevant to my field (like if I decided to go to med. school and treat homeless drug addicts). Anyways, thank you and I'd love to hear any other thoughts.
Posted by: anon | June 19, 2009 5:26 PM
my issue was not my own depression, but rather severe depression of my spouse and kids with special needs. I talked with my PhD adviser, but not postdoc advisor, PhD advisor was a good guy, postdoc advisor, not so much
As for one responder--feeling more comfortable talking to female vs. male.
I would be careful. The absolute worse people in my life when discussing my families issues are the female bosses (save one). They are the least sympathetic and treated my wife like shit. My male advisors, bosses etc., have been by far the most supportive. (this has been true of the doctors my wife sees too. Male Docs more agressive in treating and listening, female docs tell her to shape up and get over it. So much for sisterhood.
Posted by: no name | June 19, 2009 7:40 PM
Grrlscientist is right about being cautious about bringing an ADA claim against an employer. It is tough being seen as a trouble maker, even if it doesn't come down to an actual lawsuit.
I had to threaten to file a discrimination lawsuit to save a non-science summer job. It was a sexual harassment complaint not a disability complaint but the legal and non-legal effects are similar.
Posted by: JPS | June 19, 2009 9:41 PM
Yes, Grrlscientist is correct. As one who brought a case using the ADA due to discrimination for a physical illness, I can tell you I would NEVER go that route again. Laws may be nice in theory, but the adversarial proceedings will force people you thought were friends, to choose sides in order to do a little CYA. I lost my colleagues, my job and then didn't win the case anyway due to a loophole.
You have to decide how much you value your work. I loved my job and should have just put up with certain difficulties that weren't going to last forever anyway. In retrospect, the price I paid was too great. I never would have disclosed anything if I had known how it would have been twisted and used as a means to fire me. The bottom line is when you disclose any reason for someone to think twice about your capability to do your job, they can fire you at will and then claim any other reason they want for dismissal. You don't need to give anyone ammunition to use against you down the road. It is just too big a chance to take and too big a price to pay if things don't go your way. They WILL find a way to fire you if they decide that you are not able to handle the job--the laws won't protect you from THAT, no matter how un-true it might be. Thelaws will only come into play after the fact, and by then its to late for you, your career, and your future.
Mental illness IS a stigma. I have heard of universities making a point of trying to find out which students are suffering with "suicidal thinking", under the guise of trying to protect them and help them. As soon as the student admits that they had a few "incidents", the university dismisses them for poor academic performance or other technicalities, or places them on "medical leave" that turns out to be permanent when the student tries to re-enter. Discrimination laws just don't have the ability to prevent this kind of thing from happening.
Try the best way you know how to struggle along without saying too much-- and I wouldn't go to human resources if I were you... I was WORKING in human resources when I got canned.
Posted by: OneWhoLost | June 19, 2009 11:32 PM
So I've suffered from depression for most of my life, and I will say it's probably not wise to discuss this with your PI.
I was... unguarded when I came to grad school- not inclined to hide much of myself at all. Immature as well, I'm sure.
The first PI I worked with had a pretty negative view of people with mental illness; he was particularly negatively inclined toward taking medications. He dismissed a good friend of mine as crazy (she had a diagnosed anxiety disorder). I processed his feedback such that I was pretty sure I was just fundamentally an irredeemable, incredibly messed up person.
The next advisor I had managed to simultaneously refer to my "fragile psychological makeup" and tell me it wasn't my depression but my "inability to relate to him" and "lack of talent at benchwork" that made it impossible for me to continue in grad school.
Another professor simply didn't believe the depression. She said to me 'I've seen depression, I have a grad student who has depression, and you don't act like her. So that can't be the problem- it must be your motivation'. And truthfully, when I have difficulties, I truly don't know how much of it is related to depression and how much is due to a failing that I should be able to control (laziness/self-indulgence/what-have-you).
Given all the problems I've had, I'm sure there's plenty wrong with me aside from the depression. So hopefully those sorts of responses and the interactions I had aren't typical. But in no case did telling anyone about the depression seem to help.
Posted by: anon4this | June 19, 2009 11:56 PM
I'm with everyone who said, "Tell your advisor that you have a medical problem, that you are working hard to resolve it, that you apologize for the negative impact it has had on your work to date, but that you are doing everything in your power to resolve it and get back on track."
I had to tell my postdoc advisor something like this, and although I included medical detail because it felt right to do so, I agree that unless you are very confident your advisor isn't scared by mental illness, you may want to keep that part quiet for now. I think it is much more professional to acknowledge that there are some problems with your current work output than to hope people will somehow "forget" in the future.
Posted by: Dr. Jekyll & Mrs. Hyde | June 20, 2009 2:01 AM
mental illness is an illness, right?
so, no need for the qualifier. "Ms. Advisor, I wanted to tell you that for the past few months I've been dealing with some medical problems, which is why my performance hasn't been up to my own standards" or something like that.
I also deal with depression, as a side effect of chronic illness (rheumatoid arthritis since I was 20). If I'm having a bad day, regardless of whether it's pain or mood or whatever, and I know I shouldn't be at the office, I call in sick. My supervisor doesn't need to know which joint is bugging me, why does he need to know it's my brain that's the culprit??
Posted by: CanadianChick | June 20, 2009 2:48 AM
Thanks for tackling this, Dr. Isis. I found CEiA's post really helpful in getting up the courage to seek treatment for my anxiety disorder. I'm still sorting out a workable treatment, but being on the front foot, and having my PhD advisors be so supportive has made a big difference already.
My GP pointed out that mental illness is incredibly common in academia. Something about being unable to "switch off" our research-related thinking. Sometimes it's exhilarating, other days it leaves me completely on edge and unable to function.
Posted by: Anonymous just for today | June 20, 2009 2:57 AM
No, don't tell. My adviser didn't understood my problem related to pregnancy(so forget about mental illness). As Isis wrote in later part, post-doc and students are treated as a slave in this country.
Posted by: anonymous | June 30, 2009 7:40 PM