Being at ScienceBlogs as a pseudonymous blogger has been an interesting experience. It has been especially interesting to read the types of things people write on other blogs about me. Most of the recent stuff I can't take seriously -- especially when it comes from a commentariat where use of the word "nigger" or "fag" is acceptable. It's usually the same crap I've been getting as long as I've been Isis: "Isis posts too many shoes and not enough science." But that is the nature of the interwebz and it has been an enlightening experience. Perhaps one day we'll have a chat about why I think post-graduate, early career scientists don't blog more about science. Maybe. Or, maybe I am being a bit like a cat and I am going to lose interest as soon as the next shiny thing comes into view. I can guarantee nothing these days.
Figure 1
One of the comments though has given me pause to stop and reflect...
Apparently, I tell you all frequently how busy I am and that is annoying. Hm. I suppose it just might be. I try to tell you all things about my life because I find myself fascinating and highly entertaining, but hearing this criticism reminded me of a time when I once levied it myself and made me think about the kind of scientist I have become.
When I was in graduate school I worked for a fairly well-known scientist who had achieved substantial seniority at our university. Going into the program I knew that this would offer me a number of advantages. It did and, for better or worse, I wouldn't change my graduate school experience. But, one of the things that regularly irked me was just how busy this guy was. We had scheduled to meet privately every two weeks on Tuesdays at 2pm and I would frequently go to his office to find a Post-It note on the door saying things like "Running late. See you at 3pm." Or, "Last minute obligation. Gone for the day." Or, occasionally, I would show up and wait. And wait. And wait. And wait. He might show up sometime later, but always with the same excuse. "I'm sorry, Isis. I was busy and this was the soonest I could get here."
It used to really frustrate me. I mean really. It made me wonder if my work (or, heaven forbid me personally) was really important to him. I remember crying over it a couple of times early in graduate school, rationalizing to myself that, if he really cared, he would make it a priority to be there for our meetings. I remember swearing to myself that I would never do that to a student.
The problem? I now do it all the damned time. I did it yesterday to a student who came to me wanting help with something and I told him there was no way I could help him until after Friday at 2 pm because I was too busy, and that I thought he had enough information to figure it out himself. I know it frustrated him because I probably could have solved the problem that afternoon. Friday at 2 pm is the internal deadline for this grant, and that is my livelihood. It helps determine my promotion and my future ability to do science. It should be my immediate priority, no? Part of me feels apologetic because I know that this student had a moment where he felt like he was not a priority to me. Part of me knows how it feels to then entertain the thought that someone doesn't care about your needs or your success. Part of me feels like this is just the way the game is played, Buttercup, and we all need to toughen up a bit.
I've had moments chatting with friends who are parents where we realize that we have become more like our parents than we ever would have wanted. I realize that I have become my scientific father (except hotter and with much better hair), fueled in part by the fact that it is logistically impossible to be everything to everyone at every moment in this field and sometimes one must learn to say, "You are not my priority right now." There is no way that I can be equally scientist, mother, wife, mentor, kick ass blog diva, teacher, every moment of every day to every person and I realize that sometimes I am going to say, "I didn't do X because Y is a bigger priority." Maybe it is annoying if you are the one with the expectation of X.
Now that I have moved on from graduate school and accepted this as my reality, what I need to get over professionally is apologizing for it.
Education
Life Science
Comments
For what it's worth, I think Buttercup is better off waiting until Friday afternoon. Maybe Buttercup will even have solved the problem by Friday, and maybe this will help Buttercup to be more initiating in solving problems before asking for your time.
Posted by: Gingerale | July 21, 2009 10:10 AM
"I realize that I have become my scientific father (except hotter and with much better hair)"
Then I guess your scientific father had some smokin' hot shoes.
Posted by: Chuck | July 21, 2009 10:21 AM
It's important for those around you to realize that your priorities aren't always necessarily the same as their priorities, and sometimes the best they can hope for is that you'll acknowlege their concern and get to it when you can.
That's just how it is, and there's no reason to apologize for it.
Posted by: Jay | July 21, 2009 10:35 AM
It's important for those around you to realize that your priorities aren't always necessarily the same as their priorities, and sometimes the best they can hope for is that you'll acknowledge their concern and get to it when you can.
That's just how it is, and there's no reason to apologize for it.
Posted by: Jay | July 21, 2009 10:35 AM
I really hate it when I notice the spelling error at the same instant that I click "Post"...
Posted by: Jay | July 21, 2009 10:37 AM
I don't think these are the same thing, Isis. If your scientific father is anything like mine have been, he didn't stick to SCHEDULED appointments. Which is just shitty, frankly, and I don't know anyone who doesn't get tired of that.
But if I read your anecdote correctly, this student came by unannounced? So it's perfectly reasonable for you to say, "Look, I have a deadline."
What really gets me are the PIs who make promises about making time for you, maybe even make grandiose statements about how helping you is next in line to be the top priority... and then don't follow through. There are always a million excuses. I don't get it. Why lie? Just to make me go away temporarily? Is it really worth my perpetual ire?
You don't strike me as the type who does this, at least not yet. So I'm going to propose that maybe it's not too late for you to make a resolution to be better than your forefathers. I know you're way smarter than they are.
Posted by: msphd | July 21, 2009 10:51 AM
"It's important for those around you to realize that your priorities aren't always necessarily the same as their priorities."
This is a biggie for everyone to realize, and one that we often do a poor job of training youngsters for these days. But, the flip side of it is that people who are always a priority (i.e. the president) need to understand how their experience will differ for those who get deprioritized. It's easy to tell someone else that their priorities aren't yours, when you yourself never experience an environment where your priorities aren't theirs (i.e. profs get to tell post-docs how to prioritize, post-docs don't get to tell profs that). You can be delusional about how overall time is being prioritized in that circumstance, as in the young Isis waiting and waiting, fruitlessly for her meetings.
Frequently ignoring others priorities, when you've committed to them can't be excused. It's OK to tell someone you can't meet them until 2 PM Friday, but not to tell them you'll meet them at 2 PM and then not show up. And, if you really can't give a person the attention they need, then you should refuse to take them on, not pretend to be supporting them. If you're person whose time *has* to be prioritized to other's determinant, you have to make sure that you haven't promised things you won't deliver.
(and this applies to spouses, family, and children, as well as students and colleagues).
Posted by: neurolover | July 21, 2009 11:03 AM
My own research mentor was handed his schedule by his secretary every morning on an index card that he slipped in his shirt pocket. He then proceeded to ignore what was on that card for the rest of the day. Every once in a while he would pull it out and realize he was missing stuff. You could schedule appointments, but your best bet was to lurk near his office and hope he showed up. Eventually I figured out that this wasn't personal, but I always try to be where my calendar tells me to be. That said, as an MD my schedule is often not my own. New inpatients may drop in the ICU 15 minutes before I'm supposed to meet a student, screwing up my entire day.
Of course, I seem to find adequate time to blog and cruise around others' blogs. But without these brief mental health breaks I would have been committed a while ago.
Posted by: Pascale | July 21, 2009 11:56 AM
But being ludicrously busy is one of the most noticeable features of a science career (not to mention motherhood)! If you blog at all about your life, you can hardly avoid mentioning it.
(Personally, I have to put "shower" on my google calendar or I'll never fit it in. And I don't even have kids.)
Posted by: MissPrism | July 21, 2009 12:02 PM
I'm glad you wrote this for two reasons. First, because when I was a grad student I could have really used this insight into my faculty and second, because now as that faculty -- a scientist and a mom to boot -- I am up against the same tensions. I am working hard to be transparent, to make sure my mentees do not feel neglected or deprioritized, to not repeat the mistakes of faculty who were my mentors at various points. But the reality remains that there aren't enough hours in the day to fulfill the expectations of all of the people around us, and some of them will have to get over it. My daughter is one person I don't want to ever get over it, though, and I happen to like a lot of my projects, so grants, personal work projects, and my kid get prioritized over most everything else.
Posted by: Kate | July 21, 2009 12:06 PM
This is SUCH an important thing for a grad student to realize. I realize it now, but I still have trouble not getting annoyed. Especially when I can't get to the next step in a process (like paper publication) without my advisor cancelling or postponing a meeting at least 4 times. But I know they've got major obligations of their own. As grad students, we can be awfully self-focused sometimes.
Posted by: Scicurious | July 21, 2009 1:09 PM
I second what msphd said. There's a big difference between not showing up for a scheduled meeting, and not scheduling a meeting until it's (more) convenient for you. The first is rude, the second is a good time- and sanity-management skill.
Posted by: Emily | July 21, 2009 1:14 PM
Ah, if only everyone could always be on time to everything. The real question, Isis, is: do you get mad at the student because they haven't done whatever it was that they needed help with? My boss does that all the time, and it is beyond annoying.
Some high-up science peeps also use their status as an excuse to be late to everything. My PI (big science fancy-pants) is always at least 10 minutes late to lab meeting. More if it's one of his students. And that's if he shows up at all. But Pasture help you if you sit in his seat!
Posted by: JustaTech | July 21, 2009 1:46 PM
What Jay at #3 (and #4) said. But, I don't care so much about how you think about your life and schedule, although it's definitely a girl thing (and a feminist issue) to set your own boundaries. What I care about are the people with opinions about your blog, who may have boundary issues of their own.
What's with people b!tching about your blog? Tell them they get what they pay for. Honestly. Oh, and you can tell them to stop reading! Stop reading now! if they're so all-bothered by you, your shoes, your fabulousness, and your busyness. Who's got a gun to their heads? (Or, they could just start a blog of their own that no one would read, because people don't understand that blogging is a skill that takes time and talent!)
Step off, people.
Posted by: Historiann | July 21, 2009 2:39 PM
In my time as a new graduate student, realizing that my adviser has other priorities has been one of the most difficult lessons for me to learn. I'm not sure exactly what I expected graduate school to be when I first started it, but I certainly was expecting more training and less self-learning. I realize now that graduate school is about self-motivation and learning to do things without (and sometimes in spite of) your adviser. Hearing about the difficulties of academic scheduling from the outset would have been exceptionally relieving.
However, for me, the most difficult aspect of the adviser / advisee relationship has been the perpetually vague expectations. I can deal with feeling like I'm not a priority, but it's harder to deal with getting too little support to start the research process in the first place.
Posted by: Patrick | July 21, 2009 3:50 PM
I have no problem with advisors who are busy, it is flaky that annoys. You need to be upfront about your priorities and realistic about how much time you have. If you don't have time to meet with me then don't schedule an appointment. If you might have time, but aren't sure, tell me as much. If there is a good chance that you will be late, then meet me in my office so that I don't have to sit outside your door waiting in the hall for twenty minutes. I don't expect you to do more than you can, but I do expect you to tell me if you can do or not. It is basic courtesy people.
Posted by: yolio | July 21, 2009 4:21 PM
Your behavior, from my perspective, would not bother me as a trainee. What irks the shit out of me is when I am scheduled to meet with someone, and they blow me off at the last minute or are a no-show. I book my experiments, etc, around these meetings. I don't care how important the other guy is or how unimportant I am, but it is common courtesy to keep the meetings that you actually schedule. Telling someone you're busy and that they'll have to wait shouldn't be a problem, because you're not wasting the other person's time.
Posted by: Candid Engineer | July 21, 2009 5:02 PM
Keep your scheduled appts. or reschedule well in advance. Otherwise, it makes you look like you don't have your shit together.
Posted by: Vytautas | July 21, 2009 5:43 PM
i've had an extremely hands-off mentor during my phd, which i found myself really grateful for. it forced me to rely on my own resources, which really showed me what i can handle on my own. also, i sought out other resources (knowledgeable postdocs, awesome techs) who i might be able to bounce ideas off first.
my mentor is not only senior faculty, but of a group that is not well-represented in senior faculty. as such, the boss is always flying off to some meeting of some type. or another study section. or whatever. some days i just have to stake out the coffee maker because that's a sure stop.
but my mentor is great about email. running late? you'll know. needs to reschedule? you'll get an email about it. i think we trainees generally understand and accept this phenomenon, it's the communication that occurs (or doesn't) that really makes it work out ok (or not).
(i also found i was hugely more understanding of this after spending a summer with not one but two undergraduates in my charge.)
now the difference between meeting with someone immediately vs in 3 days? i never expect to meet with anyone less than 2 days after i send out the email asking to meet/pick up supplies/use someone else's facility/etc. advance notice is key.
Posted by: leigh | July 21, 2009 6:35 PM
Yes, agree with what everyone says, and I repeat my mantra -
STOP FEELING GUILTY - just do your best. No-one can do better than that.
But one more thing. I remember the first time, guiltily, I said 'no' to a student who just appeared at my door. I actually said 'can you please come back at XXX pm'. And she looked as if she was really sorry, that she hadn't realised that she may have intruded, and she seemed to treat me less like her own personal commodity after that. And after that, also, if I were already busy, never felt guilty about asking people to make an appointment. (And yes, I did see her when planned, and I could help with the problem).
The other thing I have found useful on the other side of the fence, when making scheduled meetings with other busy people (particularly advisers or working colleagues), is to send them something about the problem or discussion in writing - easy to do on email - so they can, if they like, have a handle on what the conversation is about. This saves everyone time.
So I think I agree - scheduled appointments are different from 'drop-ins'.
d.
Posted by: d. | July 21, 2009 7:06 PM
you could always blog less...
Wait . . .what am I saying...
most carelessly hidden anonymous comment ever...
Posted by: anonymous | July 21, 2009 9:30 PM
I'm very interested in having read this right before I start graduate school. In theory, I know that there's a lot of other things that my faculty are going to have to be doing while they're also teaching. I know that they're there to do research, and have their own labs and projects to do in those labs. And I know that a lot of them do a whole lot of running around trying to fit in every advisee, grant proposal, etc. they possibly can.
On the flip side, as a student, as an undergraduate student specifically, I've had a lot of problems with professors that weren't helpful - whether because they had too much on their plate or because in all honesty they didn't really give a shit about the students. I'm paying for my education. In the case of graduate school, I'm paying a lot, and keeping my fingers crossed the whole time that I'll be able to make enough in my career to not be crippled by my student loans. I don't have a problem being self motivated, but if I need help I really hope that I'll have folks at my university I can get it from.
(Which is not to say that I don't think that Isis is a good helpful person, or that I think there's any problem with her telling her student to come back on Friday, particularly if whatever his problem was on wasn't due by Friday and if she really thought he had what he needed to figure it out. Just that this whole topic scares me a little.)
Posted by: Avery | July 22, 2009 3:24 PM
Avery, I am going to throw something a little controversial out there for the peeps in the name of discussion.
I find that sometimes people need less of my help then they think they do and there is some value in making them struggle and suffer to find the answer on their own....
Discuss.
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | July 22, 2009 3:32 PM
If you choose a big, research intensive Uni for undergrad Avery, this IS what you are paying for. The faculty contingencies put the needs of undergrads dead last. If you want profs who are focused on the undergrad, other types of Universities/colleges are a better choice
Posted by: DrugMonkey | July 22, 2009 4:45 PM
I like yolio's distinction btwn busy and flaky. If someone has a lot going on, that's fine. I don't ask them to drop everything and attend to me. But it's common courtesy for them to say as much, rather than to say "oh yeah, I meant to do that, I'll have that for you by next week" for the umpteenth week in a row. Of course unexpected things come up- maybe your kids get sick or your car breaks down or whatever. But in general, just assessing your time constraints realistically and communicating them to others can help a lot.
Posted by: Jessica | July 22, 2009 5:38 PM
Re: #23, Isis, as a teacher (and probably a damn fine one) I know you must be right - heck, I employ this technique all the time with the 4 year-old - and yet... Hmm, that isn't sufficient in every case. And the professor will likely not know this for certain if he/she is mostly unavailable to students!
Although it is less than ideal, help in other forms can and does exist -
other students, the internet, tutoring, additional/professional networks, etc. So I'll grant you that, but up to a certain point. One exception I see would be for help in subjects outside one's major area of focus - for student and professor alike, is the extra effort and time worth it? (I would hope so, but it doesn't strike me as being so in practice.)
One question for all the profs out there -
Do you observe that you are more/equally willing to meet with students who are enthusiastic for the subject matter but still struggle with it, or who are otherwise showing aptitude in the subject vs. students who are not?
Posted by: callinectes | July 22, 2009 7:23 PM
I realize that my last question may not be a fair one. I meant it partly as a rhetorical one but partly in the spirit of discussion (a paradox if there ever was), I am just genuinely interested to know.
Posted by: Callinectes | July 22, 2009 7:29 PM
On the flip side, as a student, as an undergraduate student specifically, I've had a lot of problems with professors that weren't helpful - whether because they had too much on their plate or because in all honesty they didn't really give a shit about the students.
that's why big research universities normally have lots of TAs. teaching is not a priority at a research university. get used to it.
as a grad student, Avery, you will learn to operate at a higher level than an undergrad. you will learn to do more on your own. i'm gonna warn you that kind of growth is not a painless process.
Posted by: leigh | July 22, 2009 9:11 PM
@Isis, 23- this one hits very close to home for me; please bear with me...
As a 2 year old, my favorite phrase was "I do myself!". As a grade school student I was reprimanded countless times for reading ahead in the textbooks. As a high school student, well, I wasn't one... because I had taught myself what I needed to know to go straight to undergrad. As an undergrad, I remember passionately arguing against any number of required courses because I knew how to direct my education.
I am not only happy taking charge of my education, I'm miserable when I can't.
On some gut emotional level, I cannot comprehend anyone asking for help learning anything unless they'd come up against a brick wall.
I hope your buttercup isn't like me. If not, there's no risk you will say encouragingly: "I know you can do this! However, we'll talk on Friday after the deadline and make sure you got unstuck." and they will hear a patronizing "you are a lazy bum, how dare you ask for help??".
And a total lack of self-esteem can actually produce learned helplessness.
One of the most important lessons of grad school: go after the resources you need in the most effective way possible. For some people, effectiveness means learning to be very respectful of grant deadlines so professors are not negatively disposed toward you.
For some of us, effectiveness entails asking for help... a lot more than we wish we had to/think we should.
Posted by: becca | July 22, 2009 11:29 PM
@neurolover (#7): And, if you really can't give a person the attention they need, then you should refuse to take them on, not pretend to be supporting them. – My feelings exactly!
@Avery: You should be scared. There are a number of profs out there who just can’t be bothered, and many more who are all too willing to serve as apologists for them. So when you find someone that treats you and your time with respect, value them for what they are – a gem! (They’re out there, but they’re rare.) Good luck in grad school!
As for Isis (#23): Sometimes throwing someone in the middle of the lake and yelling “paddle!” is a teaching strategy – one that probably works with a small percentage of students. But more often than not, it seems to me that it’s laziness masquerading as instruction. And the consequences for some students can be disastrous.
Posted by: Hope | July 23, 2009 2:50 AM
I completely agree with the people who said that it's fine to tell someone you don't have time for drop-ins, but rude to miss scheduled meetings. I particularly agree with neurolover. A professor may be much busier, but her time is not more important than anyone else's.
Actually, this tension is one of the primary reasons I don't want to be a professor. Universities are populated by people who all have different priorities and goals simultaneously, which I find intensely stressful.
Posted by: ecogeofemme | July 23, 2009 9:30 AM
Interesting, Isis. I've recently begun noticing how often I apologize for being busy. I'll have to come up with a different way of handling this.
My own advisor (a prince among men, seriously) was one of the ones who was always running late. Many's the time I ended up seated in the hallway outside his office, waiting for Princely Advisor to show up. (I was seriously thinking of subtitling my dissertation "Waiting for Princely".)
The reason, in his case, was not only that he was super-busy even at that, relatively early stage in his career. It was also that, once he was with someone, he would give that person 100% of his attention. He was always meeting with people and hearing them out. He does that to this day.
It was worth waiting for. But there were still times I wanted to bash his head in.
Posted by: a little night musing | July 23, 2009 1:33 PM
Re: #28, #29, & #30 I am hoping that I'm going to be ok with doing things on my own - I enjoy learning on my own and going out of my way to learn when I find something interesting.
I'm partly cranky just now because I attempted to take a summer class that I didn't need as an undergrad but do need as a grad (I am switching universities and they have different requirements) and my professor's teaching style was "read a chapter of the book per night, memorize it enough to pass a test on it the next day" - I like reading, but I'm not going to remember an entire chapter the next day, certainly not as well as I would have if the material is discussed in class & I get to write it down again to process it. So I dropped the class, which I couldn't afford to do but it seemed like it was that or fail it because I just don't learn that way. Obviously there are many different professors with many different teaching styles but this just seemed to cross some line into not being a teacher.
I also had a professor who was wonderful in class, and I was really getting into the subject - I was, in fact, very close to having a minor in his field, but I could never get him to sit down and talk to me because he was so busy. And that really put a damper on my enthusiasm for the field and continuing on in it. While I don't expect graduate school to be void of these folk, I'm also hoping most grad professors I have won't turn out to be like either of the above samples.
Re: Dr Isis, #23 I completely agree with you - and I think that pointing that out to the student is key. Giving them a few days to then come back and ask questions is also good so that if really, their brain just isn't seeing something obvious (this happens to me in maths courses often, and it's so frustrating!) you can give them a push if you have to.
Posted by: Avery | July 23, 2009 6:25 PM