I have never recieved an email quite like the one I did today. I was so struck by it that I had to move it to the top of the queue. To poor Callinectes, I will get to your question because you would be at the top of the queue if Fia hadn't written this:
My dearest goddess!
I have heard that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Therefore, please let me offer you this:
and this:
and this:
I have a question.
Since I have had my kids early on during my (not-yet-existing) career, I seem to be a target of friend of friends, friends of colleagues and colleagues of colleagues who ask me again and again the same question with a varying theme:
* Is it reasonable to have children during grad school?
* I found out I am pregnant, we want a child but I just accepted a PhD position. Should I have an abortion?
* Should I wait until later in my career to have children?
* I just finished grad school and am pregnant now. If I have the child, what are my chance on the job market a year later?
All such emails usually end like this:" please keep this confidential".
I am a polite person. I try to answer those emails honestly, and with great care. Still, I cannot help myself but think that I may be the wrong person to ask. Yes, I have "dunnit", but my career is just a tender budding sprout and I have no idea whether having kids during grad school was indeed such a clever idea. I cannot judge whether having kids a bit older will make the tenure process less stressful than having a baby at that time. I do not know what it is like having kids during the post-doc period. And, most important, I know what it is like to have kids in an environment where daycare is affordable and available to grad students. I don't know how this works in other places. So dearest Isis, and I hope to reach via your blog the other gods in the parenthood-science cosmos*:Would you please specify how you did it or not did it. Confused pregnant aspiring scientists need to hear both sides. Please, if you do not feel that this is TMI, tell all those confused women your story of success in a nutshell, male, female (anonymously, or not). What made it possible? Where were the problems? Did you choose for it yourself or were you chosen or did you choose not to? Why did you choose not to? What is your advice?
I like to picture you as Demeter (the top one)
Dr. Stemwedel as Hera:
Sciencewomen and Alice Pawley as Theia and Rhea,
PiT as Persephone:
Ed Yong as Hermes:
,
CPP as Zeus,
and, of course, FSP as Athena
I disgress. I could go on and on like this. I apparently have too much free time tonight.
Fia
I gotta tell you, little muffins. This email had me all sorts of sideways. First, I was distraced by thinking of ways to photoshop a bottle of Jameson into Zeus's hand. Then I found myself thinking, "Wait one damned minute! These emails are supposed to be about worshiping me! Not every Tom, Dick, and Harry on the intertubez!!!" Then I found myself thinking, "Ugh, another email about whether or not to have babies in grad school...."
And then I reread this sentence.
I found out I am pregnant, we want a child but I just accepted a PhD position. Should I have an abortion?
What the balls!?!?!?!!?!! I'm not going to lie, that I found myself slightly unnerved by this. Not because of my afore-mentioned mackerel snapping ways, but because it upset me to think that someone would feel so overwhelmed by academia that they would consider this for that reason alone.
So, here's how it is. Dr. Isis has a small child herself who absolutely ran amok tonight, sizing and copying all of Fia's pictures into here took like 14 hours, and I am absolutely exhausted. Probably too exhausted to formulate a coherent response to this tonight. I am going to settle into bed at a decent hour for the first time in months. I will offer my answer tomorrow night. In the meantime, have at it in the comments section. I'll ignore my comments until I post my own answer tomorrow so as to not be influenced by your shenanigans.
Have at it, little chickens.
Education
Life Science
Comments
Abortion rights are important to me, and I will not vote for any candidate who is not pro-choice.
That said, I find this:
"I found out I am pregnant, we want a child but I just accepted a PhD position. Should I have an abortion?"
horrible.
And so, so sad.
Posted by: sandy | August 19, 2009 11:46 PM
Consider how many early-career academics complain of almost unbearable pressure [1]. That's even without the burden of responsibility for another totally helpless high-maintenance human being.
No, I'm not at all surprised by the expression of "if I had to deal with a baby now, I'd either drop out, snap, or suicide." I've heard of suicides and don't doubt the others.
It's totally not right, but that's the way the system is set up. Let's not sweep it under the rug.
[1] Plenty of examples just on ScienceBlogs, no?
Posted by: D. C. Sessions | August 20, 2009 12:13 AM
...
@ sandy, post no. 1....
...drollsmiliemoment:...
So where do you (the universal 'you') draw the line..??
I am sure we could all imagine a thousand scenarios, ten thousand scenarios, ten million scenarios . . .and we would all pick them apart and sort them here and there, 'This is OK, this one is not..!! ' each of us piling this one or that one in different piles and quiggling** over each...
I suspect this comment thread will be much like any other comment thread on the subject on the intertubes... Should be fun to watch.
...tom...
** From 'quiggle': a blend of 'niggle' and 'quibble'...
.
Posted by: ..tom... | August 20, 2009 1:19 AM
Yikes! I would never deign to give advice on whether one should have children or a termination.
Instead, I'm going to ponder the fact that Fia pictures me as Persephone. I gotta say, I'm pretty darned ecstatic to be given the unofficial title of Queen of the Underworld and the fact that I had a fling with Hades and got to hang out in Hell sounds about right.
And wasn't Persephone the daughter of Demeter? Hmmm ... that would make Isis my mother! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!11!!ELEVENTY!!1!
Posted by: Professor in Training | August 20, 2009 1:52 AM
I can understand being dismayed and angry about the amount of pressure put on people in starting careers in academia, particularly when it comes to women having kids. However, the use of a woman considering abortion as an example of how it's OMG!Horrible is kind of pissing me off. I'm tired of the whole "abortion is only for very dire circumstances" tragic narrative.
Posted by: LostMarbles | August 20, 2009 2:21 AM
I have to admit I quit my PhD many years ago, and one of the (many) reasons was because I wanted children. Of the 4 other women in my area, 2 were childless in their 40s, 1 had a child in her late 30s and the other quit her PhD because she was pregnant. So I completely see where people are coming from - you take all that time to get there, then if you take time out you aren't current any more. I couldn't find an answer.
Posted by: Deb | August 20, 2009 2:33 AM
I know plenty of women who have had children while doing a PhD so its certainly not impossible. So long as you live in a place with adequate healthcare provisions and cheap subsidized childcare facilities there shouldn't be a problem.
Here in Sweden the state pays almost all the fees of childcare so that you can safely and conveniently leave your baby at a Dagis (daycare center) all day - after it is about one year of age.
The state also pays for up to a year maternity pay so that you can stay at home with your child until he or she reaches the age when it can be sent to daycare. Indeed you can actually choose for the father to be the one to stay at home for that year and he will get paternity pay, thus allowing you to return to work or studies soon after the birth.
Posted by: Sigmund | August 20, 2009 5:15 AM
I see this as the natural and foreseeable consequence of the kind of pressure that academia puts on grad students. Why do they put such pressure on grad students? Because it helps the PI and the others at the top of the Kyriarchy, it saves money so there is more for PI and administrator salaries, and because they can.
This kind of pressure isn't advancing science. It is advancing those at the top of the pyramid at the expense of those at the bottom. It is slowing the progression of science because those at the bottom have to spend time and energy scrabbling for resources, time, sleep, money, food, daycare, etc. instead of working, learning and thinking about science.
Posted by: daedalus2u | August 20, 2009 6:36 AM
The newbie grad student should check her medical rights -- at my MRU most students can defer a year, or take a year's leave of absence and come back to the program; however, grad students at my MRU *do not* get maternity leave. Based on my experience in the life sciences, I would say the first couple of years, when taking courses, would be a little more difficult to deal with the wake-ups at night and lack of sleep. After the big hurdles of grad school are done and over with, your schedule is more flexible. I had my first in my last year of my diss., not easy to defend with a 6 month old but I managed.
This is a personal decision the letter-writer posed, however, and I cannot suggest what I would have done in this person's situation. My gut reaction is that many factors play into whether or not one keeps a pregnancy -- age, money, desire to have a child, energy level, career plans...all of these things should be taken into consideration for this decision and weighted accordingly.
Posted by: gnuma | August 20, 2009 7:46 AM
daedalus2u #8 said:
"It is slowing the progression of science because those at the bottom have to spend time and energy scrabbling for resources, time, sleep, money, food, daycare, etc. instead of working, learning and thinking about science."
I'm afraid there is zero evidence that it is slowing down the progress of science.
Extreme competition for research jobs drives down wages and greatly increases the choices available to employers. If that means that those with children or intentions of having children are less employable than those who forgo having a family then that is simply an unintended consequence of the current state of the scientific job market.
(In other words, there are some very shitty aspects to embarking on a career in scientific research that you should take into consideration before you begin).
Posted by: Sigmund | August 20, 2009 8:02 AM
In other words, pretty much anywhere but the USA.
Posted by: D. C. Sessions | August 20, 2009 8:23 AM
This situation is exactly why abortion has to be legal. This woman needs counselling so she can make the decision she is least likely to regret.
In Canada women get up to one year leave. My office mate had her first child when she was finishing up her Ph.D. research. She took the 6 months off research but kept reading and writing and finished pretty well on time. (Uni had a 5 year to completion policy)
Posted by: cass_m | August 20, 2009 8:35 AM
I find it very sad that someone (who clearly has not actually experienced grad school) would terminate a pregnancy just because she's afraid of how hard grad school might be. I think it speaks very poorly of the communication we give prospective students.
We like to complain that grad school is hard, but it's also very flexible. In many cases, it is possible to arrange schedules so that one can find a time to have kids and science. I sometimes think that we like the "grad school is boot camp" mythology. It makes us look tougher for having survived it. But most of grad school isn't like that.
I have known several women who've had children in grad school and as postdocs. In all of these cases, their advisors and mentors were supportive and found ways to make it work. In fact, in my (admittedly limited) sample of people I know in this situation (think a dozen), I only know of one who was explicitly driven out of science. [She was in astronomy and her professors were apparently very 19th century.] All of the others are happily doing science and contributing (scientifically) to society. All of them completed their PhDs (even the one who left science finished her PhD and turned down several postdocs that were offered to her).
The other point is a statement that an old art teacher once told me. "Vita longa". Not everyone has to run at top speed to make a contribution. There are lots of examples of people who ended up making a major contribution after major detours. His favorite example was George Bernard Shaw, who turned to writing plays at age 50 and wrote a play a year for the next 50 years. There's time to take to have kids and enjoy the world. You might even do better science for it.
Posted by: qaz | August 20, 2009 8:39 AM
A woman should choose an abortion any time this is congruent with her wishes, that is, not to carry the pregnancy.
However...
It is sad that we feel forced into these choices by life circumstances, that is, we would continue the pregnancy if it weren't for "x". To feel coerced into an abortion can be psychologically problematic.
But once it's chosen, support only.
Posted by: MonkeyPox | August 20, 2009 8:41 AM
D.C.Sessions said:
"In other words, pretty much anywhere but the USA."
I should probably qualify my earlier words by saying that the need for state supported health and child care only applies to those without a large income or savings. Starting off with an enormous pile of money and no requirement for a steady future income is probably the ideal scenario for anyone who thinks research might be for them (I like to call it the 'Darwin option', after the great scientist himself - who managed an entire career without an income from a steady research job).
I better stop myself before I begin to sound cynical.
Posted by: Sigmund | August 20, 2009 8:47 AM
Having children and a science career does sound scary and crazy, but it is not impossible! I really feel sad that someone would think it would be too much and consider terminating her pregnancy. I always figure that you are given as much as you can handle. You may not think so at the time, but it will work itself out.
As for me...I had my first child when I was in graduate school. She was born about a year before I defended. I helped that I was in a very family-friendly institution and my PI was very supportive. I probably could have finished my Ph.D. sooner without having a child, but I can't say that it held me back either. I was able to get a great postdoc and now am expecting my second child in a few months. I will be promoted to non-tenure track faculty once I return from my maternity leave after only 2 years of a postdoc, so I don't think I've been at a disadvantage because I chose to have children.
Granted, the transition to tenure-track has me scared and I will see how that goes, but so far, so good. Both of the institutions I've been at are top ranked cancer centers with competitive programs so I am trying to be optimistic that I will be able to come out okay.
Now my only word of advice is to have a strong support system! My husband is a saint and I tell everyone I know about how great he is! He is not in the science field and I am sure he thinks what I do is crazy, but he is uber supportive and has really taken on the roll of Mister Mom. All of the successful science women I know who have children, have a husband or significant other that really steps up to the plate.
Wow, for my first comment, this has turned into novel!
Posted by: Michelle | August 20, 2009 10:57 AM
I don't think I have an answer to the question of whether or not it's a good idea to have kids during grad school, as I have no kids and am not yet in grad school. But I'm really glad to see this discussion, because I know that I want to go on to grad school, I know that I want kids, and I'm pretty sure that the timing is likely to overlap. It's good to hear that it's possible - and tips on what to look for in an institution - because while I know several men in grad school with children, I don't currently know any women in that position.
Posted by: tariqata | August 20, 2009 11:02 AM
I can only contribute my own experience: I started grad school pregnant with my first child (in a new country, an ocean away from any family), had a second child at the end of year 3, and a third child a year after graduating. My area is not lab-based, so perhaps children fit in easier, but I found grad school a great time to have babies: you will never have the same flexibility with your time again.
The two things that really helped were a totally involved husband (who was also in grad school, and had flexibility), and living close to campus, so that we could run home and back again very easily. Our first child stayed at home for 1.5 years - we managed to arrange our schedules so that one of us was always at home. The other two were carefully scheduled to be born at the end of spring, I stayed at home with them for the summer, and then they went to day care. We also lived in a place with abundant child care, which meant that it was somewhat affordable (though not cheap), and we could take the kids out for a few months, save money, and not worry about not getting back in.
Now that I have a "real" academic job, the kids are bigger, and require way less supervision. It is still a challenge sometimes, because schools seem to expect that a parent is available any time of the day, but we manage without daycare/nannies/babysitters. All my collegues with smaller children have to have someone to help or a non-working spouse.
My point is really that while there is no "perfect" time to have kids, it is usually possible to make things work out.
Posted by: Aniko | August 20, 2009 11:37 AM
...does Sci get a place in the pantheon?!?!! Pleeeeeeeez?! I'll take a muse, though I have to say Artemis would be my overwhelming first choice. On the other hand, Priapus might be more apt...
Posted by: Scicurious | August 20, 2009 11:59 AM
As a current science PhD student, none of the questions to Fia surprised me. The only thing *somewhat* surprising is that the one questioning terminating was doing so before entering grad school-- I knew it would be bad, but not this bad. I have thought about what would happen if I became pregnant now and that would be my choice. I understand some people see it as evil, but there are those of us that don't, too. It shouldn't be considered such an atrocious contemplation.
To those who have had children during grad school, props to them. I couldn't ever do it.
Posted by: anon | August 20, 2009 11:59 AM
This post makes me very emotional; sorry if it strikes anyone as too negative.
"This woman needs counselling so she can make the decision she is least likely to regret. "
"Likelihood of regret" probably depends more on an individual's tendency to rationalize after-the-fact than anything else. Regret will follow both options in a significant proportion of people.
"I sometimes think that we like the "grad school is boot camp" mythology. It makes us look tougher for having survived it. But most of grad school isn't like that."
Very context-dependent. Also, if a boot-camp phase (e.g. studying for comps, or an OMG-R01-renewal-crazy-time!!!1) happens to come up when you're at 8.5 months of a textbook pregnancy (or any phase of a 'difficult pregnancy') it could be more than challenging. About as healthy as running boot camp obstacle courses at 8.5 months pregnant.
"I'm tired of the whole "abortion is only for very dire circumstances" tragic narrative. "
I don't know if it's a productive narrative, but grad school can pose dire circumstances in itself...
"No, I'm not at all surprised by the expression of "if I had to deal with a baby now, I'd either drop out, snap, or suicide." I've heard of suicides and don't doubt the others."
+1
Posted by: becca | August 20, 2009 12:03 PM
Pardon me while I shackle down my inner physioprof.
<pause>
Now I think I'll spend some time chatting with people I know who are still hurting years after people they loved died by their own hands from despair.
Posted by: D. C. Sessions | August 20, 2009 12:07 PM
I am Science-y woman working in the private sector (not academia).
I am currently pregnant with my 3rd. I confess, that I briefly flirted with termination when I found out that my position was going to be expanded. It is sad, but the US, most organizations are actively hostile to women raising families - I expect that this child will be a CLM (career limiting move) if I am not fired.
It is scary when a primary breadwinner faces the lost of income, demotion, and or job loss associated with having a family.
I suspect this happens (termination due to opportunity) much more than it is talked about in the US and will continue to happen.
Posted by: n3rdchik | August 20, 2009 12:09 PM
A snapshot of life for the DBC family between pregnancy and child's 3rd month:
interview for multiple post-doc, defend PhD, accept post-doc 3 states away, defend Master’s Thesis, both graduate :), have baby, house hunt 3 states away (with baby), buy first house, spouse job search fruitless, move 3 states away, and then the baby has life threatening event… (btw, that baby is healthy and kicking today!)
Do you hear an echo here? There is no right time, just your time. You adapt, you survive, you live, even if it is not always graciously!
Posted by: Mrs.DBC | August 20, 2009 12:09 PM
Warn a guy, would you? Please?
The Thinkpad has a good spill tray on the keyboard, but that was some awfully good coffee.
Posted by: D. C. Sessions | August 20, 2009 12:12 PM
I blogged on the timing of kids in academic careers a few months back ( http://bit.ly/3BU5t5), so I will let everyone go there for the long answer.
The bottom line: there is no "ideal" time to have kids, so do it when you want. If you feel overwhelmed by the idea as you start grad school, then you may wish to delay or abort. This is why we need reproductive freedom as opposed to "forced birth." If you want to have a child, then do it- kids have been raised successfully in all sorts of circumstances. Women gave birth crossing the prairie...
Posted by: Pascale | August 20, 2009 12:21 PM
This is a complicated issue, because there is a lot of person to person variation in what one can handle, and often one discovers what one can handle (or not) by trying to.
My own experience was that having a kid altered my perspective on what was a big scary thing and what was a difficult but probably manageable task -- a lot. Being a parent also made me a lot more patient with others, and with myself (although possibly less patient on some of the stupid stuff; more polite, though, in expressing my impatience and a proposed path for dealing swiftly with the stupid stuff).
I wouldn't have predicted that being a parent would have this effect on me. And, I wouldn't want to universalize from my experience to predict that these would be the likely effects of parenthood on anyone else.
The advice I would give: Any choice you make is to take one path you see right ahead of you rather than another. You can't tell right now how either of those paths will unfold. You can't tell whether they intersect at some point over the horizon. The best you can do is listen to your gut right now and give yourself permission to change course as you go when it feels like you ought to.
Posted by: Dr. Free-Ride | August 20, 2009 12:30 PM
Fia,
Have your child. You will never be sorry.
I have had 3 students in my lab that had children while in grad school. They were the most productive students that have worked for me. They had to plan their experiments very carefully and organize their time. They also had supportive and forgiving families to help them.
My wife gave birth to our child when we were asst profs. After that we struggled with infertility problems for a long time, and the depression associated with that was overwhelming. We couldn't have another child.
When are scientists supposed to have children? Grad school may be as good a time as any. If you wait until you are tenured, it may be too late.
Posted by: Joe | August 20, 2009 12:46 PM
In my department (math) of *this year's* graduating class, we've got two mommies with three kids between them and and five daddies with, say, 5.5 kids between 'em. (I might have missed a dad. Also, all these folks are married to non-math people.) Apparently our department is pretty family-friendly, although for the women, the timing of teaching and pregnancy was a little tricky. (There had to be some juggling of teaching schedules and some 'irregularities' of some sort.) It probably helps that for some reason there are a lot of new dads among the younger profs (the only two women among our young profs are single). It's an R1 school. A lot of the parents say grad school was a good time because of the flexibility, especially in our field.
On the other hand, I know a woman who transferred into math grad school from chemistry grad school because with a child she could not deal with the chemistry schedule. Math, being more portable, worked better for her.
Lesson: you should all do math :) (Ok, maybe that isn't the only take-home message...)
Posted by: k | August 20, 2009 1:29 PM
@ 21 - becca
I'm not disputing that. I was just appalled that, out of all the questions, Dr. Isis focused on the abortion one so that everyone can sit around and talk about how sad it is that grad school is so overwhelming that *gasp* someone would consider *shock* something as tragic as abortion. There is that implication, whether intentional or not, that the only reason a woman would have an abortion is if circumstances were dire.
Posted by: LostMarbles | August 20, 2009 2:42 PM
I'm not planning on having children during graduate school because I'm not ready to have children yet and because I don't think I would be able to care for a new baby and continue to make progress on my dissertation. But a few people in my program have had children during their time as graduate students and continued to do terrific work. My university also has quite sensible maternity/paternity policies in place, which I'm sure helps. The biggest problem graduate-parents face, from what I've heard, are faculty members who do not support their decision to have children at that point in their career.
Posted by: Bookbag | August 20, 2009 3:14 PM
Adding to what Janet wrote: life is a gamble, you can't know how things will turn out until it's too late to change your mind -- either way. Strap in and hold on, it's an E-ticket ride no matter what.
Never do anything you'll regret.
Never waste regret on what you did.
Posted by: D. C. Sessions | August 20, 2009 3:22 PM
I had a baby with 6 months to go before I was due to submit my PhD thesis (in astronomy). I was lucky in the sense my (Australian) university offers PhD students 3 months of paid maternity leave and up to 12 months unpaid leave of absence. And very lucky in the sense that my thesis advisor has a small child of her own.
It wasn't how we planned to have children (my husband is also a grad student), but in retrospect it's turning out pretty well. On a practical level, being grad students means that we have a lot of flexibility with our time, and kids don't cost very much when they're little. On a personal level, I used to be a highly-strung perfectionist type, and I've had to unlearn that... also to ignore the ultra-competitive attitudes of some people in my lab (mostly emanating from male professors without kids or whose wives have put their careers aside to support their husbands I must add!). But they were good lessons to learn anyway.
A woman should be able to choose a termination if that's what she wants, but there's something very wrong with the system if it sends the message that doing a PhD is incompatible with having a baby (or a womb).
Posted by: Annie | August 20, 2009 3:33 PM
@22
D.C. - I think you missed my point. That comment is one that I tell myself when I get overwhelmed with children + career...and there are plenty of times when it happens.
I've dealt with a near suicide in my family and would never tell someone who is suicidal that - completely different situation! Hope that helps to keep your inner physioprof contained.
Posted by: Michelle | August 20, 2009 4:03 PM
My advisor is a young (37 y/o) assistant prof... and has gone through BS-MD/PhD-postdoc-assistant prof-ship without stopping. This is effectively the same path I'm planning to take, here at the start of my 2nd year of PhD work at 22. He's buying a *three* bedroom house with his wife because "you can't wait forever."
After reading all these great opinions, I posit that either late in one's PhD or early postdoc is the least inconvenient (as opposed to most convenient, which, I'm sure we all agree, isn't an accurate descriptor for W-in-S) time to have a child. Unfortunately for me, I don't feel like I'd be "ready" to be a mommy in 3 years' time. And while it's great that both my advisor and I listen to Depeche Mode, I can't think of a more awkward, hilarious scenario as both of us trying to produce offspring at the same time. But I guess in comedic delivery, timing is everything?
Posted by: Chris | August 20, 2009 4:06 PM
I just wrote a post instead of a comment. I suck with html- so here is the link:
http://bluelabcoats.wordpress.com/2009/08/20/grad-school-academic-careers-and-babies/
Posted by: drdrA | August 20, 2009 4:13 PM
Any job that is so stressful that a woman cannot have a baby while doing it is unacceptably stressful.
There are some jobs that pregnant women should not do for health and safety reasons. Science at a university is not one of them.
Posted by: daedalus2u | August 20, 2009 4:31 PM
Wow! Thanks Isis, and thank all who commented very much. I am sure the original women behind the questions are reading here, and I know it will be of help for them.
My 2c: If you are determined enough to be a scientist, and if you are as determined to have a family, it will be possible - if resources for daycare are available.
@D.C. Sessions #11: "In other words, pretty much anywhere but the USA."
Yeah, pretty much. Sadly, I did not pursue a post-doc position in the US in lieu of one in another country with better family support.
@ Scicurious #19: My sincere apologies for forgetting you! Artemis is an excellent idea! Apollo would also be an option. Amor... Initially I wanted to make a large family tree including many more bloggers, but time was limited (my kids currently have the flu...) and I found Hera was a match too often.
@ Joe #28: The questions were posed to me, and I was passing them on to the community. I have two kids (both born during grad school) and I therefore often get questions like this. I find that my own experience is a bit limited, and would like to create a source of many experiences so that people could get a better picture of what academe+ really is like.
Posted by: Fia | August 20, 2009 4:52 PM
I have never been so thankful as I am right now for my government agency research job, where they just expanded the day care center, and something like 1/3 of the midcareer types in their 30s are pregnant or have babies under one. (That was kind of a fluke or possibly something in the water.)
As a society we suck if we let it be accectable that you can't have significant nonwork responsiblities (like children or a sick family member or really anything) and do science.
This is the kind of thing that drove my mother out of research science 40 years ago. It was supposed to be different by now.
Posted by: anon | August 20, 2009 6:30 PM
A lot of things were supposed to be different by now.
My generation has been remarkable for many things, but IMHO nothing so much as for self-congratulation.
Posted by: D. C. Sessions | August 20, 2009 6:40 PM
This is an appalling situation.
Life is sacred and is worth far more than the transitory material rewards of a career, however successful.
Women are sacred vessels that have a responsibilty to protect their fruits.
Posted by: Pete Rooke | August 20, 2009 6:57 PM
Where's my fallout shelter when I need it?
Right physioproffing next to ground zero. Crap.
Posted by: D. C. Sessions | August 20, 2009 7:06 PM
Chris #35 - When I was an assistant prof, my lab contained three grad students, all of whom had kids the same age as my kids. Lab parties were a massive kid fest. It was great. Our kids became friends and although the students have moved on (i.e. graduated!), we still swap kid stories every year at the neuroscience meeting. I highly recommend it.
Posted by: qaz | August 20, 2009 7:26 PM
I can't say what this girl should do, just say what I THINK I would do. First and foremost, do I have any support? Is the father an active (and rather permanent) part of my life? Am I married/engaged? Is my family around to help me? How demanding for in-building research is my program? Can I take work home with me? How close am I to school/work for traveling? Can I afford a child? And for me, the biggest question to ask, Am I emotionally, mentally, and physically able to care for a child? Some days I can barely get myself out of bed, let alone out the door. So, if she can't, she needs to think: adoption, or abortion?
Posted by: ktbug ladydid | August 20, 2009 8:37 PM
we had talked about having a child during graduate school, but some very painful life events changed that.
now looking back, my phd involved a lot of sustained self-neglect and spousal neglect. (and long-distance relationships, and barely being able to financially support and purchase health insurance for two, much less THREE or more.) i personally can't imagine what would have happened if i had additional responsibilities at home.
but that's just me looking back at past events that can't be changed. i put myself under maximal pressure to achieve my chosen goal, and had that goal post moved, i/we would have changed the way i/we did things. humans are good enough at adaptation to environmental changes.
i plan on critically surveying the environment in my postdoc lab for a while before revisiting the idea of having a family.
Posted by: leigh | August 20, 2009 8:39 PM
Dear Pete Rooke,
STFU and please get your fail off the internet.
No love,
A woman who is not at all interested in protecting her "fruits"
Posted by: LostMarbles | August 20, 2009 9:03 PM
There are many reasons grad school can be a great time to have kids, but the pay/insurance uncertainty swamps them for me. I'd like to have a kid now when my time is so flexible, but I'm going to wait until I can get health care from something other than the campus medical center.
Go health care reform!
Posted by: ecogeofemme | August 20, 2009 9:44 PM
We had our first child during the first year of my Ph.D. program. Second child during the second year. That's when I quit. My demi-dissertation and all the relevant papers went into the dumpster. We had more kids after that, and I've been at home with them full time for fifteen years now.
Two things stand out. First, I never intended to stay home with my children. I had been a hotshot student up until baby number one, and I had planned to keep on going. The day my baby was born academia went on the back burner, never to return. It was an emotional response, and it caught me by surprise. I was absolutely blindsided. My life plan disintegrated, quite unexpectedly, and I was uninterested in trying to reason myself out of these feelings. Most of my friends and colleagues had no such reaction to their firstborn, and their careers (and their families) continued just fine, as far as I can tell. I had intended to be in their company, but it was not to be.
Second--and this is the kicker--I now believe that my emotions led me seriously astray. I remember feeling that it was critical that I be there for my children, because no childcare or nanny could do the job as well. I felt that the children would grow up fast, and I didn't want to miss it (they're only young once, right?) I figured the university would still be there in ten years, and I could start again. All the standard motherhood lines. Well, I don't believe any of that now. I think you can be a fine mother or father, and raise wonderful children, without one of you becoming a stay-at-home parent. Actually, I KNOW you can. It's obvious, right? I think so now, and I thought so before I had kids. But I couldn't for the life of me think so when my children were young. Maybe counseling would have helped--although you don't get counseling if you don't think there's a problem.
Now the kids are all in school, and I'm waiting for the fire in my belly to return. I've been waiting for several years, in fact. No sign of it yet. I just feel drained. But maybe in time....
Posted by: D | August 20, 2009 10:20 PM
Not that I do science, or am planning on having kids in the near future, but I agree with daedalus2u above.
"Any job that is so stressful that a woman cannot have a baby while doing it is unacceptably stressful.
There are some jobs that pregnant women should not do for health and safety reasons. Science at a university is not one of them. "
Posted by: Katherine | August 20, 2009 10:23 PM
D,
Don't wait for the fire! Go back now. The fire will come. Years can slip by so fast and you will never get them back. Every time you ask older people for advice about life they all say the same thing. They regret most the things they didn't do. Don't let this be one of yours.
Posted by: Sara | August 21, 2009 6:07 AM
@qaz #43
Your response makes me smile! I think I'm slowly bridging the gap between my nth year of studentdom as one eternally in awe of professors and working to become one myself (with a healthy respect for my "colleagues"). Perhaps this is the source of my (slight) discomfort with the thought. I'm glad it worked out so smoothly for your group.
Posted by: Chris | August 21, 2009 10:52 AM
Consider, if you will, that I'm 57 years old and my youngest just took her MA. As soon as I can sell the house here, I'm headed to someplace where there's a decent university so I can go back and finish what I started 40 years ago.
Does that help?
Posted by: D. C. Sessions | August 21, 2009 1:49 PM
Sara,
Those are wise words, and they have just now dredged up a long-buried memory: my grandmother's last coherent words, many years ago, were "never let anything stop you from doing what you love." Spoken to my mom, but passed on to me, age 20, and promptly forgotten--until now. So, for spurring that recollection, a heartfelt thank you. I think my grandma was precisely the kind of person you describe. She left with a lot of regrets.
D.C. Sessions,
Yes, that does help! Your determination is inspiring, and maybe even a little intimidating. But not too much...
Posted by: D | August 21, 2009 4:07 PM
And if you have kids at the lab, they know what science is...
I can't recommend enough starting a babysitting co-op if you can't find one. Make up some 1/2-hour tickets, give everybody 15, and trade your non-busy attention for child care when you are busy. Start with a few friends and invite people when you've met them and like their parenting styles.
Posted by: Monado, FCD | August 25, 2009 11:51 PM
Another bit of context: Doing a memory-count... at the start of my PhD program, we had maybe 10 women at my level in our (very large) dept; at start of my internship there were probably another 10. Out of both groups, I was the only female who was married at the beginning of the experience and who completed it still married (and not divorc-ing) (The internship was only 12 months, but the marriage-mortality rate was as high for the whole period of grad school and dissertation. The males who entered either group married were all still married at the end. This was years ago, and maybe the gender ratio isn't so skewed now.) (Only two psychiatric hospitalizations that I knew of, one of a female, one of a male.)
But in worrying whether/when/how to have kids, the possibility that you may well find yourself coping as a single parent is another realistic concern.
Posted by: auntruth | September 26, 2009 1:58 PM
I started grad school when my first baby was 3 months old. As a mom in her late 30's, I was so delighted and proud of being a student with a baby, maybe the only student that used to cook and play with her baby the night before exams. I wanted more children, but I was so overwhemed by courses and sleep deprivation that decided to wait a couple years. Then my husband got sick, and had to wait one more year for the treatment to be done. After that I got a miscarriage, and never got pregnant again. When I went to a doctor, the doctor told me my fertile years were over. That was it. I have tried everything but nothing has worked. However, I am so blessed I have my precious baby and my husband. And I just graduated and got an ass professor job. I hope you have this child. I wish I hadn't been scare and I had more, even when I couldn't sleep and I had to study for exams. In any decision you may make, best wishes.
Posted by: peacegirl | October 1, 2009 3:48 PM