Recently I received the following email from appropriately worshiping reader Victoria:
Hello Dr. Isis,I've been following your blog for a while and I love it! I'm writing to you now because I'm a postdoc and just returned from a meeting that reaffirmed my need to embrace my femininity. Even more than that, I need to talk to other women about it. At almost every meeting I've ever attended I've been hit on. Not like, "So, are you new in the field?" but as in, "why don't you come to my room and talk about your research?". Or my favorite, "Why did you get married? You're not using your assets to your advantage." I don't think I'm a member of the Swedish bikini team, but I'm not unattractive and I'm very outgoing and (I think) very likable, but for the longest time I made sure to wear the most unflattering clothes possible to meetings. That is until I realized that it doesn't matter. Shit happens, there are men that will always be pigs, and it doesn't matter if you're wearing a burka or a bar maid outfit. So when I got my first talk at an international meeting and was nominated for an award I was determined to finally look like a girl again because, damn it, I can obviously do science otherwise I wouldn't be up for this award when I'm in the lab of a nobody in the field. And I was right. Nothing has really changed, I can look like a girl, and roughly the same percentage of slime hits on me, and the same larger percentage of nice, dorky scientists treat me like one of their own.
So the reason I'm writing you is because you have a very successful blog that actually gets to the heart of being a woman in science and wanting to maintain the feeling of being a sexy, feminine woman without sacrificing the science. I also know I can't be the only one that deals with this type of thing, but I have a hard time finding other girls who do, perhaps because they don't feel like it happens to anyone else. In order to get more of us talking, I've just started a facebook group called "I'm sorry, did my chest get in the way of your science?". I think that this way, if girls want to share their story, they can, and if they don't then they can read about it from other girls, and it creates some camaraderie. I don't know how you feel about facebook, or if you have a page, but I would love it if you would join my group or even just give me some suggestions. I'm trying to spread the word, but the flow of info between women of science can be slowed by the lack of connections.
I really hope to hear from you!
Sincerely,
Victoria
You can check out this new Facebook group here. There are two things about Victoria's email that hit home with me. First, I think few men realize how pervasive harassment at meetings is. There is something about the combination of alcohol, a more relaxed setting, and being away from the traditional academic setting that brings out the best and worst in some people. Second, Victoria is entirely right that it does not matter what the woman is wearing - barmaid's costume or burqa. Some men view meetings as prime opportunities to behave like cockweaseldouchemonkeys.
In her email Victoria asks for suggestions. The only suggestion I have is to keep having the conversation. The more women feel able to talk about this, the closer we'll come to fixing the problem. I think these digital media are interesting. I am intrigued by the ability these places (blogs, Facebook) have to build communities that would not normally, or at least easily, form in academia.
I've joined the group on Facebook and there are already some interesting things up on the wall. I'd encourage my readers to go check it out.
And tell Victoria I say "hello."
Jobs
Education
Comments
I agree with Victoria's sentiment, but I'm having some trouble getting past her use of the word "girls". One would never refer to a male of a similar age as a boy, so why is the reverse acceptable?
Posted by: Anne | November 13, 2009 5:17 PM
Anne, this is something that I think varies with location and culture. I am from the US, and was educated in college that the appropriate noun was "women". But when I moved to Ireland for a post-doc, I learned quickly that "girls" is not only commonly used, but even expected. Many women here refer to themselves and their friends as "the girls". I've even had some tell me that they *prefer* "girls" to "women" because to them "women" makes them feel old. To many folks here, it doesn't seem to have the connotations that it carries in the US. So I've learned to refer to a group of women as "girls" here, but I know I'm going to have to unlearn this mighty quickly when I move back to the US.
Posted by: Dan | November 13, 2009 6:22 PM
Funny... I experienced the pervasiveness of harassment at meetings just last month, when a faculty member (I am a grad student) at my research institute basically invited himself to my hotel room and made disgusting sexual suggestions. Can you report those types of incidences? Since it occurred outside of the university I'm not sure. It's not a big deal to me but I don't want other girls (I have NO problem with the word) who are not as firm with him becoming a victim of this. It SHOULD affect his tenure review. What a jerk.
Posted by: anonymous | November 13, 2009 6:30 PM
I think it's great that Victoria took the initiative to start this discussion on facebook. I, like Anne, am having some trouble getting past some of the language on the page. In particular, in the group description:
"This group isn't for the bra-burners!"
I don't find this sentiment to be very...constructive. Instead of scorning the 'bra-burners', I tend to be thankful for all of their efforts to make my life a little easier. There is, indeed, a long way to go for women in science (and all women, really). I think we can continue their fight, in our makeup and fancy shoes if we so choose, without trashing those who came before us.
Posted by: sarahdoc | November 13, 2009 6:38 PM
Wow, this really hits home. I agree with your advice, keep talking! Soon, there will be more of us and what a better place it will be!
Posted by: CFS | November 13, 2009 6:45 PM
Way too serious!!! I started a discussion for the "girl" issue on the group page, mainly because I DO refer to males as boys quite frequently.
I'd also like to explain that I'm not "trashing" bra-burners. IMO, (and from what my top-notch public school education taught me) bra-burners don't like make-up. They don't like high-heels. They don't like dresses. They don't like, well, bras. They don't like these and a million other girly things because they are symbols of a society focused on the objectification and subjugation of women.
I like all of these things. In fact, I find them to be empowering, so in general, "bra-burners" are the antithesis of who I started the facebook page for.
Things I don't like: the word "feminist" and being PC.
I wasn't there, I didn't have to deal with what they dealt with, and maybe if I had been (and had a much smaller chest) I would have burned my Playtex with them.
I guess I'm actually a bad person, because I honestly just don't care about the PC thing. The first instance of SH really screwed me up in the head for a while. A scientist followed me to my room, and the first thought in my mind was that I had done something to be viewed as a target, and OMG, what if all of the other men at the meeting think that I'm just some dumb blonde? I have to change the way I look/act/feel to be taken seriously. Fortunately for me, I don't get mad, I get even. I work harder, I do better science, and on top of it, I'm more fun to be around than a lot of other scientists, male or female. And the last thing I want is for someone to make a big deal out of my being female (or even a girl).
Yes, I think Rosalind Franklin is one of the most screwed-over women in history. No, I am not cool with that.
What can I do about it? Pretty much nothing other than be pissed-off for her. Did bra-burners help us or hurt us? That's debatable.
And finally, I would like to point out that the email sent to the great Isis Scientist was about facebook. FACEBOOK!
Posted by: Victoria | November 13, 2009 7:28 PM
@ Victoria
I'm curious about your definition of "bra-burners". In my mind they are the courageous (or desperate) women of the sixties and seventies who left the kitchen to join the working world, and fought hard against harassment, the glass ceiling, pay inequity etc. etc.
Bra burning was a stunt to get their message on the six o'clock news - sort of like tea-bagging.
So - how do YOU describe the women I call bra-burners? An inquiring mind wants to know.
Posted by: R E G | November 13, 2009 9:22 PM
Victoria: You mentioned that you maintain a blog on this subject, any chance of a link to it?
Posted by: Em | November 13, 2009 11:01 PM
Victoria,
My comment was not an attempt to disregard what you are trying to do. You declaring, OMG FACEBOOK, not SERIOUS!!! Doesn't that sort of take away from what you are trying to do there? The issues you raise are important. We, as women, have a right to go to our jobs as postdocs, in heels or sneakers or sandals with socks, and do hot science and to be taken seriously regardless of what we are wearing, without fear of harassment.
I also have a liberal education. You know what I learned there about the feminist movement? JACK SHIT. I didn't even learn about how the bra burners hate make up. I have recently learned about feminism on my own. And the more I learn, the more I am in awe of the women who paved the way for us to be able to have a conversation about how we are treated in the science field. Because without them, we would be expected to NOT go to college, to marry some dude to provide for us, and take care of house and children, with no other option. You, me, Dr. Isis - we stand on the shoulders of the women that came before us. We should revel in the fact that because of them, we are able to choose our own way - we choose to go to college, we choose to get our PhDs, we choose when and if we marry someone, we choose when and if to have have children, we choose how we figure out how to raise said children. We are lucky to have those choices.
The reason that I take issue with your 'bra-burner' statement is that we cannot fight against this by fighting against each other. You rebel against the idea that you can't wear makeup and be taken seriously. What about the women who just...don't wear makeup? ...don't care about shoes? ...who might really identify with the bra burners while still wearing an awesome outfit to work? When you say something like that, it shuts down an entire segment of the female population that might like to talk about what you are talking about on your facebook page. This is not about being PC, it's about being respectful. If we don't respect each other as women, how can we expect anyone else to take us seriously?
Posted by: sarahdoc | November 14, 2009 1:53 AM
I passed the link for the facebook group on to my sister, who's a graduate student. Thanks for that
Posted by: StThomas | November 14, 2009 5:08 AM
When I said that I'm a bad person because I don't care about the PC thing, I obviously wasn't clear: I really don't care about much of anything. The woman's movement, bra-burning, everything: I understand it was a stunt. So were a lot other things in history to get messages across. Do I think it's interesting? Yes. Would we be in the same place we are now if these things had not happened? No. Would it be a better or worse place? I don't know. Will I take advantage of it? Definitely. And I would like to reiterate why: because I'm a bad person. Do I ask myself questions, then answer them? Yes.
And I believe that many of those liberated women are now offended that some women now get advanced degrees and yet choose to stay at home, asking "how can you do this after everything we went through for you?!" Uh, that's the point.
My point is that I didn't start the facebook page for women who don't care about shoes or makeup or clothes or things like that. There are plenty of other pages for women in science that are intent on saying everything that many of you are saying here. Fine. You want to talk about the feminist movement and how it's advanced the cause of female scientists? Fine. That's not what that group is for. It's not that I don't respect them, it's that the group is just not for them and that's the point. If you disagree, then don't join the group.
Honestly, I started the group for chick scientists (yes, chicks) that like girly stuff and/or because of it might have had to deal with more assholes than usual. Not to start a fight with females offended by the word "girl" or "bra-burner" or any other term I am likely to use that is very likely to be offensive to the majority of other females or people in general.
Honestly, this could go on and on, but I need to buy myself a new pair of Uggs and then go and pick up my red car. You may continue on being offended if you so choose, which is likely.
Posted by: Victoria | November 14, 2009 10:39 AM
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?
If I had been old enough, I would have been one of those bra burners. Of course, I always believed one could make a point just as well with lipstick, nice shoes, and hairless legs & armpits. I was glad one could be a feminist and wear something besides army boots by the time I hit high school. Of course, during college in the 80s we decided professional women should dress like men. It wasn't an all bad look, but I'm really glad that most of my permed photos didn't survive the era...
BTW, most feminists now acknowledge that bra-burning is, in general, a bad idea. Gravity is a potent enemy ...
Posted by: Pascale | November 14, 2009 11:40 AM
I agree!
That was always one of my biggest questions: 5 minutes after that bra went up in flames, weren't they thinking, "wow, my boobs hurt. Now I need to go get another bra."
Admittedly, I have never taken off a pair of 5 inch heels and said 5 minutes later, "I'm going to put these back on because I love the way they make my entire foot loose feeling."
Posted by: Victoria | November 14, 2009 1:04 PM
Yeah, that's "lose", not "loose". Weekends without coffee are rough...
Posted by: Victoria | November 14, 2009 1:51 PM
The ignorance and massive cognitive dissonance, it hurts. It hurts my poor bra-burning brain.
Posted by: Disks | November 14, 2009 7:40 PM
It's cockdoucheweaselmonkey.
Posted by: Comrade PhysioProf | November 14, 2009 8:46 PM
DAMN IT, DAMN IT, DAMN IT!!!!
Oh no, Victoria. Oh no. Oh no, oh no, oh no. This is going nowhere good, Victoria, and you might be on your own. I was totes on board with a place on Facebook for young women to talk about expressing one's womanhood a particular way in science but, um, WTF little muffin? That's the broadest over-generalization I have ever heard. I suspect things are a bit more nuanced than that. And, debatable? Really?!?! You think you can do nothing??
I am all about keeping my hot shoes while doing my science, but I am not about using them to kick my sister feminists in the jaw. There's a lot of validity to the argument that my heels are tools of the patriarchy, and I'd suggest that perhaps you need a few lessons in introductory feminism. I'd suggest here for the crash course. I might choose to wear makeup and hot shoes, and I like the idea of a group where women can discuss these issues safely (which is why I told people about your group), but we stand on the shoulders of the women who came before us. We'll be the shoulders for the women who come after us. I understand wanting a group where you don't have to argue about your makeup being a tool of the patriarchy, but our movement needs the patriarchy blamers too and, even if you don't want to engage them, let's not minimize their contribution.
If you've been a reader of my blog for as long as you say you have, then you'll know that I love and admire my bra-burning feminist Sciblings. Still, perhaps what you're saying is that you don't want to host a group that is focused on patriarchy blaming. I get that. It can be a painful thing to engage in, and maybe it's just not your thing. I get it. It is really, really hard to reexamine your choices in the light of someone else's feminist theories. It is really, really hard to be taken to task over something you've said and have to reexamine why you said it, and realized that you may have been wrong (I'm looking at you, Zuska).
Man, you could have just said that. But here's where you lost me...
Damn it. 'Cause see, I do care. I really, really care, or I wouldn't be here everyday (except the two days last week end I had the stomach flu) and I thought you came to me because you wanted to join the battle. If it's just about being silly on Facebook, then I suppose I don't care either.
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | November 14, 2009 9:37 PM
Get your own motherfucking blog, asshole.
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | November 14, 2009 9:51 PM
The ignorance and massive cognitive dissonance, it hurts. It hurts my poor bra-burning brain.
Just want to make it clear that this is my comment, which I posted from my iPhone, which somehow mysteriously rendered "Zuska" as "Disks". Well, at least it didn't call me Dicks. :)
Posted by: Zuska | November 14, 2009 10:29 PM
If I am wrong, I will admit it. I'm a scientist, and one of the biggest aspects of that is dealing with being wrong. So someone please educate me because I was under the impression that bra-burners were militants and radicals. Not just feminists or women that decided not to put up with the bullshit anymore but advocated more drastic methods. This was my thought and going along with that includes the abandonment of all of the so-called symbols of mysogyny such as makeup, heels, bras, etc. And considering the fact that 99% of media, from books to the web to tv seem to support this idea I'm not sure why I'm so terrible for believing this. If I'm looking for a true feminist hero I look to the women that had feeding tubes forced down their throats during hunger strikes in prison for the right to vote. They are my heroes.
I guess I don't think that the facebook thing is that big of a deal because it is safe and pales in comaprison to any real sacrifice. My going to a meeting when you know you're going to get hit on is not heroic. My talking about it is not heroic. When I say I don't care you misunderstand: I don't feel that anything I am doing and will do is in any way shape or form on par with what others before me have done and it would be ignorant and insulting to their sacrifices to think so-I don't care about the idea that someone might think that what I'm doing is anything important enough to have an "ist" on the ed of it's description. I have a strong personality and a huge mouth- my talking about something will never be considered a sacrifice but I know that for other girls out there it is incredibly difficult. Is this making sense? I don't want the credit people are trying to give me for starting a conversation about this or anything like it-I don't care about that and I'm uncomfortable with it. Wouldn't it be more insulting to those women if were presumptive enough to think that my wanting to be taken seriously while wearing Dior Addict lipstick was on par with Rosalind Franklin?
Posted by: Victoria | November 14, 2009 11:10 PM
I did come to you with the desire to engage other women in this conversation. I care very much about that because, as I said, I know I can't be the only one that stuff like that happens to. But the people applauding me for it have misunderstood me. The one girl that said she went to a meeting and the prof there came after her-that's who the facebook thing is for. And I don't know how I dismissed the anti-patriarchialist-my point was that they dismiss many of US and that's what the facebook thing is for. In my mind if I were an activist there would be a lot more sacrifice going on, but apparently everyone else seems to think that this facebook thing is a lot more powerful than I thought. I stand corrected.
Posted by: Victoria | November 14, 2009 11:28 PM
Ping!
Posted by: Zuska | November 14, 2009 11:35 PM
http://despair.com/ir.html
Posted by: apropos | November 15, 2009 8:54 AM
Victoria, there will always be douchebags wherever you go, that subset of men who are unable to think past their dicks. Your page seems like a good place to validate femininity and help women develop the confidence to stand up for themselves. You have an agenda so stick to it, and disregard all of those who want to insert theirs.
Posted by: momkat | November 15, 2009 11:50 AM
Dear Dr Isis I think I'm done. I would rather you just take away your support than deal with the unending abuse-as I said, I'm not up for it. I've never been called such horrible things, a bimbo who,like, doesn't know anything about science to a homophobe. Not so bad here as at Zuska's but it's pretty bad. I don't need to explain myself anymore becuase no matter what happens these people are so filled with hatred... No I don't wear heels to work-are you kidding me? I walk 4miles total to and from and work for 12h each day. I wear danskos most of the time. Not that it makes any difference- I'm sure those are what poser homophobes wear. You are also welcome to remove yourself from the group-I'm surprised you haven't already. So much hatred after good intentions. I guess that's the way of the world! I won't be posting here or anywhere else again so don't worry. It's just gotten to the point of being ridiculous.
Posted by: Victoria | November 15, 2009 1:36 PM
And since it's so insulting to so many of you I'll see about closing the group down. Good job- everyone's hatred and zealotry have killed another conversation-exactly what everyone wanted.
Posted by: Victoria | November 15, 2009 2:09 PM
I don't know what to tell you, Victoria. Welcome to the interwebz. Someone took you to task for something they disagreed with. That's the nature of the beast. You either stay and play or you close up shop and move on.
I got called a bimbo once too. Heck, I've been called a lot of things. But, let's not pass the buck. The only thing that would have killed the conversation is if I had closed things down. In this case, the only one with the ability to kill the conversation is you.
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | November 15, 2009 2:27 PM
My dearest readers,
Sometimes you send me emails asking me for help, or to promote something you're working on. Because I love you all, I try to oblige as frequently as possible. Often, even when I don't completely agree, I am willing to throw out mad bones because I believe that the majority of you come from a sincere place and are as interesting in honestly engaging in the conversation as I am. Even in a pseudonymous feminist place, we can all still operate with respect for each other.
A recent exchange with this letter writer has led me to believe that she is not engaging you sincerely and honestly and, as I have explained to her, I have no interest in seeing my readers manipulated. I have suggested that if she wants to continue the conversation on her terms, she should move to her own venue.
I'm sorry that in this case I may have misjudged the motives of our letter writer.
Isis the Scientist
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | November 15, 2009 3:02 PM