The Egyptian goddess Isis was celebrated as the ideal wife and mother. The blogger known as Dr. Isis has some fancy-sounding degrees and is a physiologist at a major research university working on some terribly impressive stuff. She blogs about balancing her research career with the demands of raising small children, how to succeed as a woman in academia, and anything else she finds interesting. Also, she blogs about shoes. In fact, she blogs a lot about shoes.
...And behold, he raised the motherfucking Jameson on high as Isis bedecked her feet in glory, and the masses were sated. -- The Holy Gospel According to PhysioProf
My blogroll has gotten too big for the regular sidebar! So, check out all of the delightful blogs that Dr. Isis reads regularly by clicking here. If you'd like to be added to the blogroll, shoot an email to isisthescientist at gmail dot com.
I'm back to my list of Ask Dr. Isis email. Next up in the queue is this one:
Dr. Isis,
I'm a regular lurker at your blog who is writing on behalf of my mother - she's a fourth grade teacher in an inner-city district in Arizona, and she has one very gifted young Hispanic girl in her class this year. Unfortunately, this girl's trying to hide her talent for math because she seems to think it's incompatible with being part of the cool, girly group of girls. Since you're the best example I know of someone who does very hot science while still being cool and feminine: do you have any suggestions for role models my mother can tell this girl about or other strategies to encourage her to develop her aptitudes? I would love to show her the Goddess's blog, but it's not really school-appropriate for the fourth grade... awesome though it is.
A million thanks (from someone whose shoes are nowhere near worthy), [Awesome name redacted by Dr. Isis]
So, here's the situation. I've read this email a few times. I'm trying to come up with something. I really am, but everytime I read this letter (and, I won't lie, I received it a few weeks ago), I get fixated on this line:
...she's a fourth grade teacher in an inner-city district in Arizona, and she has one very gifted young Hispanic girl in her class this year...[math is] incompatible with being part of the cool, girly group of girls.
I have to admit, especially before people start losing their shit in here, that I am having a very hard time not projecting my own personal experiences in this situation. I mean, I wondered why this reader pointed out to me that the little girl in question is Hispanic. I can't seem to get my mind off of it. You see, when I was a girl in school in Eastern Los Angeles, this was the group of girls folks were afraid I would reject science and math for...
Hm. I think you latched onto the Hispanic part and ignored what seems, to me, to be the meat of the problem: "Unfortunately, this girl's trying to hide her talent for math because she seems to think it's incompatible with being part of the cool, girly group of girls."
In other words, if she develops her talent for math, she thinks she'll be ostracized.
Which makes me sad, because I felt that way, too, when I was a girl (it wasn't math, it was just generally being considered "smart"), and that was a *long* time ago. Le plus ca change, le plus c'est le meme chose. Why is it that after all these years, after all the attempts of feminists to emphasize that you can be what you want to be and it's *okay*, we still have this societal perception that to be "smart" means you can't be a girly-girl? Or that to be "smart" means the girly-girls will reject you?
I think that part of it is that feminism tackled other issues--issues that meant women could work, could be business types, could take charge--but didn't (and probably shouldn't have) tackle the stigma of being "geeky".
I find, watching my daughter's interactions with other kids, that there seems to be more emphasize these days on the idea that geek is chic, that science is kewl and interesting. Of course, she's just in 2nd grade, so things may change, and may change rapidly.
But I think that's the heart of this letter writer's question: How to change the social perception of "smart" so that one's peers don't automatically assume that if you're interested in stereotypical feminine things, you're not supposed to be interested in math or science, and if you're interested in math or science, you're not supposed to be interested in stereotypical feminine things.
Yes, finding ways to emphasize the girl's self-esteem is great, but that doesn't always help when you're the target of nicknames like "Brain" and suchlike, when the nicknames are spoken not in friendly ways but in ways to demean, diminish, knock down. The pressure to conform, to be One or the Other, increases in middle school, and that's when, typically, girls' scores (and surveyed interest) in math and science start trending down.
Agree with all so far - and yes 'giving the challenge' BUT it has to be in context .... it has to be something the girl has a reason to do (like The Goddess wanting to go away from the family at weekends). It also might have to be something 'secret' between the teacher (or teacher plus small group of students) so that the girl doesn't feel she is SEEN to be a nerd.
Also, she has to actually like doing maths. Even if 'in secret'.
Assuming the culture in the school is that brains = not girly, it's unfortunately going to be difficult for the teacher to have much effect on that. As a purely pragmatic move, I would suggest that she make sure that the students' scores remain confidential, so that students aren't able to fully judge the performance of other students. This gives some cover to smart students that are worried about social stigma (the friends will probably still be aware that the student has no problem with school, but they don't need to know if she is the top of the class). The teacher should push to make this a school-wide policy, as many teachers tend to praise the best students publicly in class even when they wouldn't dream of revealing who got the lowest scores.
I think there are two issues here: one is that children (boys and girls) often see academic achievement as antithetical to fitting in socially, and two, that girls explore their talent for math less than boys. I grew up in a school district where academic achievement was valued socially, so I don't have much to say on the first issue, but I showed "aptitude" in math and didn't pursue it and so I do have something to say there.
When I was in middle school and high school I was in math club. The other students always acted surprised that I was in math club, and despite enjoying math, and doing well in mathematics competitions, and spending all my extra time in my algebra teacher's classroom to work on problems, no one ever acted like math was something I could do for a career, and none of the teachers specifically encouraged me in math. It was assumed I would do something in psychology or history or some such, and I thought it was because I wasn't good enough at math (despite high scores). So I knew math was hot, but I didn't think I was hot enough for math.
It has been a somewhat difficult road, but I'm now in a situation where I can do mathematical modeling for my career. The problem is that the technical ability I would have gained by pursuing math earlier in my career cannot be recovered.
So I think for a subset of girls who show math aptitude but aren't pursuing it the best strategy might be to just let them know that they are good at it, show them opportunities to compete in national tests, and let them know that a career in math is an option open to them.
She needs to get that girl a copy of Danica McKellar's books! (STAT!)
The aspect about her being Hispanic: she's going to be dealing with racism along with sexism. She may have further cultural issues which could dissuade her from going into math and almost certainly is lacking in visible role models. Further, as a minority, she may be expected to take on tasks of outreach for other minorities. It's not an enviable position.
On the other hand, a good teacher can often be the catalyst for such young women. When I was in high school, I had wanted to be a translator and was taking a couple foreign languages, but I started getting interested in physics. I took a physics course, and the teacher fed my interests with supplementary books and even encouraged me to enroll as an early entry student in high school. He had me take the Drake physics exam (in which I placed in the top 50...talk about boosting your confidence), and helped me with some college prep. As a student who came from an extremely poor family with virtually no significant educational background, his guidance was invaluable. Although I was thinking about physics, his little pushes in the right direction were what I needed to head into science.
I had a friend who studied Music in London. She wanted to become the Director of Nobel Prize Awards Orchestra. Her amazing Athens scholar teacher encouraged her to pursue her natural fame hungry instinct. My friend, always so honest, told the teacher that she did not have the talent to be first Director of that famous orchestra. She, however, had another teacher, a private one charging only few dollars/ lesson, who advised her to go into astronomy because she had the talent and luck to become the star of stars. He meant she'd director of highest ever constellations. She succeeded to fulfill her fame hungry instinct and also gave a helpful hand to all her supporters.
Being smart at that age often does lead to ostracism in school society (cue long discussion of the problems of education as now practiced.) These situations are individual. Talent is a joy and not pursing talent is likely to make her unhappy, even if it leads to social acceptance, as well as limiting her choices later in life. But this carries little weight with a 4th grader who wants desperately to fit in. What will carry weight is harder to say without knowing her and her situation personally.
It looks like 4th grader is OK fitting in with people that she chooses. 4th grader did not choose the talented crew because she is not keen on that kind of talents.
Sorry for the unhappy that have to put up with social acceptance. Maybe that is what the talented has been looking desperately for in the first place. The unhappy might be disappointed at that possibility but, unfortunately, this is what you and some other people helped her for. It is not all student's fault. Teachers do count a lot.
Forgive me if I'm distorting your message, but part of what I take from this is that what's important to kids is personal contact with a teacher they respect, a challenging activity that the kid can "own" as their personal identification, and a sense of accomplishment. Those factors are unique to each kid.
For us to succeed in motivating kids on the large scale, we need small class sizes. Schools need to shift their budgets from athletics to academics. We need to give teachers the ability to be creative in their interactions without having to "teach to the test." And we need to recognize great teachers as valuable before they die.
I WAS the nerdy girl, who performed well in school in all subjects. Most of this came to a head in 7th and 8th grade, where I was ostracized by my classmates, bullied into giving up my homework so that it could be copied, and in general, made to be absolutely miserable. I 'dumbed' myself down when I entered high school, and performed much below my capabilities - something that I didn't grow out of until junior year of college when I was assigned an amazing adviser and role model.
This girl is going to have it really rough, and having had the pain of living 'on the outside' during middle school years, I sympathize 100% with her wanting to be in with the cool girls. Lots of positive support is necessary, and at many levels (at my middle school, the school counselors told me I was 'making up' my problems, and I've still never forgiven them for making me believe the situation was my fault). Check around at the high schools or local colleges/universities - many of them have student clubs which do science outreach type programs to elementary schools (mine even had an all girls one), where one of the goals is usually to help show that they can study math and science when they get older.
I think it's pretty ironic that you're disturbed by the letter author's use of "Hispanic" but not by "girl."
It's relevant that the girl is Hispanic for the same reason the girl is, well, a girl; both are underrepresented minorities in math.
If you have no problem with teachers giving extra support to girls in math, then you shouldn't be offended that she's also giving extra support to Hispanics.
Oh, Renee, Renee, Renee. You adorable little nutter. I never said I was offended. I said I was hung up on the fact that she is Hispanic because my personal experience tells me that being a Hispanic girl offers a new level of complexity. White girls, for example, and Hispanic girls are both underrepresented in math, but the Hispanic girl experiences even greater challenges in advancing.
The point at the beginning of my post was that I wasn't sure if the author was telling me that the girl was Hispanic because she wanted me to pick up on that and address it specifically. In the end, I guess I stuck with what I know best. Myself.
But, you're right. I am so totes offended that teachers are giving extra help to the Hispanic children. Totes!
I'm a mathematician with several friends of various ethnic backgrounds in Arizona. They're great women at the universities (ASU, UA) who do smokin' math and physics. One also organized fashion shows in high school. If this teacher wants to present some role models, why not write to the local institute of higher education and see if they have an outreach program? I *know* that one of my Arizona friends is already involved in math outreach!
Math outreach is valuable not only because a little girl might see someone who looks like her doing math, but because math outreach people often know a lot of cool math that elementary ed folks might not. Fractals are always super-cool and make some good activities. Hyperbolic geometry is good for kids at many age levels. Check out geoemtrygames.org for a way to start kids on some mind-blowing exploration. There is some really fun math out there that any kid will think is cool!
Besides Danica McKellar's books, Jennifer Ouellette of the Cocktail Party Physics blog has just finished a book explaining the wonders of the calculus for a lay audience. I think it's due out next spring.
This hit close to home for me, too. I grew up in Arizona, and went to schools that drew mainly from the lower income areas of my city. My Mom taught in one of those schools for most of her career.
Being seen to be smart was definitely not the path to popularity. How sad that this now matters in 4th grade. I don't remember it kicking in until 7th grade.
I'm struggling to come up with any advice for the teacher, too. I know what would have helped in high school (a visit from a geeky college girl who could have told me that things would get markedly better in college. Seeing an alumna return for homecoming and be introduced with something other than the number of children she had would have been nice, too). But 4th grade? I don't know. I think the idea of not praising the girl in public may be a good one. Let her try to lead a double life if she can.
Also maybe a visit from a female scientist or engineer would help. I used to go into my Mom's classroom (3rd grade) to do a simple physics experiment. She'd have them draw pictures of scientists before I came, and tell them a scientist was going to visit. They were always surprised to see me. Their pictures were always of an old guy with wild white hair.
The local AWIS or WISE chapter could probably hook her up with someone. I suspect there are chapters associated with both ASU and U of A.
That was totally fucking hilarious how she poked herself in the eye and started crying! She is very talented!
If you were on Twitter you'd have seen that video days ago holmes....think of all the hilarity you are missing. You might even know what "chonies" means.
1) The substance of this post is really beautiful, Dr. Isis.
2) The girl with the purse has melted my brain. But that doesn't mean you're not like, totally the coolest thing in the world though!
El Picador- *I* already knew what chonies meant. See link (note, NSFW and/or put your headphones in) "I said you can't do that in public, I said even I wouldn't dare!"
*grooves*
I, too, was the "smart girl" who was ostracized in junior high because I refused to dummy myself. I was lucky in having parents who wanted me to achieve anything and everything I desired and teachers who thought a pretty, fashionable girl could be a scientist &/or doctor someday.
In high school, I did enjoy my summer waitressing jobs where the guys just thought I was a "hot chick" and didn't think of me as the brainiac. Of course, I didn't marry any of them, but I did enjoy the (admittedly sexist) attention a bit. Some of them were pretty hot, too.
This teacher should keep encouraging this girl any way she can think of. She may not get the message at home. And it may sink in eventually.
I was in the same boat with OmegaMom up at #2. I desperate in high school to not be smart, because getting good grades implied that you had nothing better to do than study when other kids were going to parties and getting into trouble and doing "cool" things. Thankfully, my parents kept me too busy to get into too much trouble, but I tried and tried to become someone that I wasn't in order to win the approval of a peer group who (I thought) valued "badass-ness" more that brains. (in the end, of course, I realized that all my badass friends were jealous of my good grades)
One solution (easier said than done) is to make kids realize that true friends will be proud of your accomplishments, whatever they are, and will encourage you to develop your skills. Sometimes those friends aren't going to be the people that you perceive to be "cool", but that's ok. If you think your friends aren't cool enough, then it also points to a need to change your own perception of what makes a person a good friend.
My struggles to gain acceptance into social groups that I didn't really fit into made much of my high school career pretty lonely. It wasn't until grad school that I was comfortable with myself to forge friendships with the people who really understand me. Nowadays, the only people from high school that I still have relationships with are the people that I tried to alienate all those years ago because they weren't "cool" enough for me.
SO, long story short - encourage this girl to develop her self esteem and follow whatever path makes her happy. Help her to realize that pursuing her talents will be much more fulfilling in the long run, and that you really can be smart AND cool.
Oh, and I forgot another thing that can help convince kids that being smart is cool - putting them in classes with other kids like them. I was part of the "enrichment" program throughout high school, took advanced placement courses, and went to academic summer camp (www.satoricamp.org) - all of which put me in environments with other smart kids who taught me that it really could be cool to be smart.
Ok, I didn't read the whole post, cause I'm still ROTFL from the Chola Makeup tutorial. Hilarious. Why do Cholas and Shenaynays talk with the same cadence and rhythm? I love it.
As others have already said, Danica McKellar's book might be helpful. You can see it at http://www.mathdoesntsuck.com/ It's in the form of a magazine so maybe it could be something she could share with her friends.
Another thing she should seriously look into is whether or not her school district has a GEMS group (Girls Excelling in Math and Science) http://www.gemsclub.org/. If not, she should consider starting one. It's an after school program for girls, which brings in outside speakers to talk about cool math and science. I think just creating an atmosphere of girls doing science is very successful. And if you can get the girl *and* her friends involved, you can show her that she can have both math and friends.
#26 Kirsten -- I couldn't agree with you more that putting smart kids with smart kids helps the smart kids. I purposely did that with my own children and would not go back to do otherwise.
My children were either in private schools or magnet schools. They excelled among the excellent and were propelled to exceed by peer pressure.
However, I don't think this is the best overall solution for education in general. This solution so overlooks the average child. When there is no "excellent" icon to look up to, no goal toward which one should or could strive to achieve... mediocracy is not even attainable.
Though I find it difficult to put my finger on and define, I suspect there's certain amount of coerced race/ethnic affiliation hindering this child. A hint of "don't make the rest of us look bad".
This tendency to ostracize the achievers of any race (whites included) pisses me off to no end. But it especially pisses me off when races other than white accuse achievers of "acting white".
Why? Because of the color distortion that does not allow them to see that whites do this same damned thing to each other... and because it's so damned destructive to everyone.
For background, note that I spent my first two years of HS in a predominately Hispanic area, and my last two in a newly integrated southern school. This gives you an idea of my age.
And it's my age that has allowed me to see how racial lines, prejudice, and yes, hatred, have hardened and calcified over the years. I hate every moment of it. IMHO, we have gone backward, not forward.
I grew up in east Los Angeles in the early 80's. I was, quite literally, the only blonde kid all the way through 5th grade, when we moved.
There are definite things I remember about the school I attended. One is that everyone - students, teachers, and staff - seemed to want to succeed educationally. I think there was, below the surface, a common belief that the only way to get the kids out of the ghetto was to make sure we could think our way out.
The other thing, perhaps ironically, is that I never noticed the fact that I was the only blonde. There were other caucasians - mostly eastern European or Russian - but most of my classmates were Hispanic of various origins. I never even thought about it. It wasn't until I moved to a mostly-white upper-middle-class suburb that I noticed that I was no longer a minority, at least physically.
We had one teacher who ran the "GATE" program (which stands for Gifted And Talented Education; basically, the equivalent of accelerated learning) named Mrs. Shippy (I think that's how she spelled it). She gathered up the 10 or so of us (pretty much the same 10 for the entire time I was there) in the back of the library for a couple hours a day. We did things like dissect cow eyes, study more advanced math - we were even involved in the national run-up for the Challenger launch.
But everything that she - and most of the other teachers - tried to do with us revolved around getting us interested in *something*. Like baseball? Here's the physics behind it, how it works. Like fashion? Here's information on light, optics, fabrics, chemical compositions, etc. Really get into romance stories? Here's some classic works of fiction, literary analysis, etc.
It's not enough to convince someone that it isn't "uncool" to do something; you have to help them get enough drive to do it whether it's cool or not. That drive is what gets you through midterms or masters' programs, through mile 20 of a marathon or or even day 22 of a workout routine. That's what we picked up, more than anything, from every person down to the ladies serving in the cafeteria at a small school in east L.A., and it's something I only saw in a few teachers at what were supposed to be some of the best schools in the nation later on.
I take a slightly devious approach with my 7th grader - she's a bit of a loner and likes to have things that set her apart, and she doesn't mind a fight. (She related a take-down she did with her Health teacher who yammered on about using chiropractic to cure allergies. She was fierce, backing the teacher into a "well, it works for me" shrug.)
I encourage her by appealing to her feisty side. I tell her, look around you. Those kids who slide along at the minimal level make it easier for someone who puts the time in to make an impression. She's interested in physics (although her only awareness of the subject right now comes from her geophysicist Dad) so I occasionally point out to her how few women go into physics. It's a little sneaky, but fun to egg her on.
Austin@32 HEAR HEAR - wonderful story - should be more of it. The appeal to the individual, and the care of those around to care for kids as individuals!
But it seems that the original letterwriter's mother IS a caring teacher, and understands the individual - so hopefully she will be doing something effective, along these lines, and just needs encouragement.
But remember this is just a fourth-grader - what is she? EIGHT years old (plus/minus a year?) Pushing too hard might just be stressful, too.
i didn't read all the comments, just catching up here, but what about a girls in science type program? my undergrad university and many, many others run a summer math/science program for girls. they would set up exciting mysteries that they solved with cool math and science. the principal group leaders were female professors, and the student assistants were junior and senior math and science majors. i think it really made a difference.
I know it has been mentioned before, but I will reiterate that she might like to look up Danica McKellar (http://www.danicamckellar.com/) who was a TV actor and also a UCLA math major. She has a couple math research papers and had a decent TV career. She is rather girly, and her books emphasize that being a girl and being good at math do not necessarily conflict one another. I think it may just be the right kind of thing for this student.
I'm sure everyone else has already read this interview with the women nobel laureates, from 'Science', but it may be worth a re-read for ideas and inspiration - note the final question about a talk to 9-yr-old girls by Carol.
30 OCTOBER 2009 VOL 326 SCIENCE www.sciencemag.org
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Well said :)
Posted by: ObSciGuy | November 19, 2009 2:34 AM
Hm. I think you latched onto the Hispanic part and ignored what seems, to me, to be the meat of the problem: "Unfortunately, this girl's trying to hide her talent for math because she seems to think it's incompatible with being part of the cool, girly group of girls."
In other words, if she develops her talent for math, she thinks she'll be ostracized.
Which makes me sad, because I felt that way, too, when I was a girl (it wasn't math, it was just generally being considered "smart"), and that was a *long* time ago. Le plus ca change, le plus c'est le meme chose. Why is it that after all these years, after all the attempts of feminists to emphasize that you can be what you want to be and it's *okay*, we still have this societal perception that to be "smart" means you can't be a girly-girl? Or that to be "smart" means the girly-girls will reject you?
I think that part of it is that feminism tackled other issues--issues that meant women could work, could be business types, could take charge--but didn't (and probably shouldn't have) tackle the stigma of being "geeky".
I find, watching my daughter's interactions with other kids, that there seems to be more emphasize these days on the idea that geek is chic, that science is kewl and interesting. Of course, she's just in 2nd grade, so things may change, and may change rapidly.
But I think that's the heart of this letter writer's question: How to change the social perception of "smart" so that one's peers don't automatically assume that if you're interested in stereotypical feminine things, you're not supposed to be interested in math or science, and if you're interested in math or science, you're not supposed to be interested in stereotypical feminine things.
Yes, finding ways to emphasize the girl's self-esteem is great, but that doesn't always help when you're the target of nicknames like "Brain" and suchlike, when the nicknames are spoken not in friendly ways but in ways to demean, diminish, knock down. The pressure to conform, to be One or the Other, increases in middle school, and that's when, typically, girls' scores (and surveyed interest) in math and science start trending down.
Posted by: OmegaMom | November 19, 2009 3:29 AM
Such an inspiring post... but I think the key words for this teacher might be "giving her a challenge". That is the first step, is it not?
Posted by: Donna B. | November 19, 2009 4:10 AM
Agree with all so far - and yes 'giving the challenge' BUT it has to be in context .... it has to be something the girl has a reason to do (like The Goddess wanting to go away from the family at weekends). It also might have to be something 'secret' between the teacher (or teacher plus small group of students) so that the girl doesn't feel she is SEEN to be a nerd.
Also, she has to actually like doing maths. Even if 'in secret'.
d.
Posted by: d. | November 19, 2009 4:47 AM
Beautiful post.
Perhaps the teacher can see if the girl's parents can be enlisted to help--a 4th grader still cares a lot about earning her parents' praise.
If that's not fruitful, what about adding extra credit problems to homework, so the girl can avoid having to "look smart" in front of the peer group?
But agreed with Dr I--the drive has to be built for much else to work.
Posted by: Dr Jekyll & Mrs Hyde | November 19, 2009 5:14 AM
Assuming the culture in the school is that brains = not girly, it's unfortunately going to be difficult for the teacher to have much effect on that. As a purely pragmatic move, I would suggest that she make sure that the students' scores remain confidential, so that students aren't able to fully judge the performance of other students. This gives some cover to smart students that are worried about social stigma (the friends will probably still be aware that the student has no problem with school, but they don't need to know if she is the top of the class). The teacher should push to make this a school-wide policy, as many teachers tend to praise the best students publicly in class even when they wouldn't dream of revealing who got the lowest scores.
Posted by: Kierra | November 19, 2009 6:42 AM
That was totally fucking hilarious how she poked herself in the eye and started crying! She is very talented!
Posted by: Comrade PhysioProf | November 19, 2009 6:51 AM
I think there are two issues here: one is that children (boys and girls) often see academic achievement as antithetical to fitting in socially, and two, that girls explore their talent for math less than boys. I grew up in a school district where academic achievement was valued socially, so I don't have much to say on the first issue, but I showed "aptitude" in math and didn't pursue it and so I do have something to say there.
When I was in middle school and high school I was in math club. The other students always acted surprised that I was in math club, and despite enjoying math, and doing well in mathematics competitions, and spending all my extra time in my algebra teacher's classroom to work on problems, no one ever acted like math was something I could do for a career, and none of the teachers specifically encouraged me in math. It was assumed I would do something in psychology or history or some such, and I thought it was because I wasn't good enough at math (despite high scores). So I knew math was hot, but I didn't think I was hot enough for math.
It has been a somewhat difficult road, but I'm now in a situation where I can do mathematical modeling for my career. The problem is that the technical ability I would have gained by pursuing math earlier in my career cannot be recovered.
So I think for a subset of girls who show math aptitude but aren't pursuing it the best strategy might be to just let them know that they are good at it, show them opportunities to compete in national tests, and let them know that a career in math is an option open to them.
Posted by: MGS | November 19, 2009 7:43 AM
She needs to get that girl a copy of Danica McKellar's books! (STAT!)
The aspect about her being Hispanic: she's going to be dealing with racism along with sexism. She may have further cultural issues which could dissuade her from going into math and almost certainly is lacking in visible role models. Further, as a minority, she may be expected to take on tasks of outreach for other minorities. It's not an enviable position.
On the other hand, a good teacher can often be the catalyst for such young women. When I was in high school, I had wanted to be a translator and was taking a couple foreign languages, but I started getting interested in physics. I took a physics course, and the teacher fed my interests with supplementary books and even encouraged me to enroll as an early entry student in high school. He had me take the Drake physics exam (in which I placed in the top 50...talk about boosting your confidence), and helped me with some college prep. As a student who came from an extremely poor family with virtually no significant educational background, his guidance was invaluable. Although I was thinking about physics, his little pushes in the right direction were what I needed to head into science.
Posted by: Cherish | November 19, 2009 8:05 AM
I had a friend who studied Music in London. She wanted to become the Director of Nobel Prize Awards Orchestra. Her amazing Athens scholar teacher encouraged her to pursue her natural fame hungry instinct. My friend, always so honest, told the teacher that she did not have the talent to be first Director of that famous orchestra. She, however, had another teacher, a private one charging only few dollars/ lesson, who advised her to go into astronomy because she had the talent and luck to become the star of stars. He meant she'd director of highest ever constellations. She succeeded to fulfill her fame hungry instinct and also gave a helpful hand to all her supporters.
Posted by: wehuyina | November 19, 2009 8:29 AM
[in passing]
Being smart at that age often does lead to ostracism in school society (cue long discussion of the problems of education as now practiced.) These situations are individual. Talent is a joy and not pursing talent is likely to make her unhappy, even if it leads to social acceptance, as well as limiting her choices later in life. But this carries little weight with a 4th grader who wants desperately to fit in. What will carry weight is harder to say without knowing her and her situation personally.
Croak!
Posted by: The Raven | November 19, 2009 8:57 AM
It looks like 4th grader is OK fitting in with people that she chooses. 4th grader did not choose the talented crew because she is not keen on that kind of talents.
Sorry for the unhappy that have to put up with social acceptance. Maybe that is what the talented has been looking desperately for in the first place. The unhappy might be disappointed at that possibility but, unfortunately, this is what you and some other people helped her for. It is not all student's fault. Teachers do count a lot.
Posted by: wehuyina | November 19, 2009 9:29 AM
That is a truly beautiful post. Thank you.
Forgive me if I'm distorting your message, but part of what I take from this is that what's important to kids is personal contact with a teacher they respect, a challenging activity that the kid can "own" as their personal identification, and a sense of accomplishment. Those factors are unique to each kid.
For us to succeed in motivating kids on the large scale, we need small class sizes. Schools need to shift their budgets from athletics to academics. We need to give teachers the ability to be creative in their interactions without having to "teach to the test." And we need to recognize great teachers as valuable before they die.
And your videos are hilarious.
Posted by: David | November 19, 2009 9:33 AM
I WAS the nerdy girl, who performed well in school in all subjects. Most of this came to a head in 7th and 8th grade, where I was ostracized by my classmates, bullied into giving up my homework so that it could be copied, and in general, made to be absolutely miserable. I 'dumbed' myself down when I entered high school, and performed much below my capabilities - something that I didn't grow out of until junior year of college when I was assigned an amazing adviser and role model.
This girl is going to have it really rough, and having had the pain of living 'on the outside' during middle school years, I sympathize 100% with her wanting to be in with the cool girls. Lots of positive support is necessary, and at many levels (at my middle school, the school counselors told me I was 'making up' my problems, and I've still never forgiven them for making me believe the situation was my fault). Check around at the high schools or local colleges/universities - many of them have student clubs which do science outreach type programs to elementary schools (mine even had an all girls one), where one of the goals is usually to help show that they can study math and science when they get older.
Posted by: Bugg | November 19, 2009 9:43 AM
I think it's pretty ironic that you're disturbed by the letter author's use of "Hispanic" but not by "girl."
It's relevant that the girl is Hispanic for the same reason the girl is, well, a girl; both are underrepresented minorities in math.
If you have no problem with teachers giving extra support to girls in math, then you shouldn't be offended that she's also giving extra support to Hispanics.
Posted by: Renee | November 19, 2009 10:53 AM
Oh, Renee, Renee, Renee. You adorable little nutter. I never said I was offended. I said I was hung up on the fact that she is Hispanic because my personal experience tells me that being a Hispanic girl offers a new level of complexity. White girls, for example, and Hispanic girls are both underrepresented in math, but the Hispanic girl experiences even greater challenges in advancing.
The point at the beginning of my post was that I wasn't sure if the author was telling me that the girl was Hispanic because she wanted me to pick up on that and address it specifically. In the end, I guess I stuck with what I know best. Myself.
But, you're right. I am so totes offended that teachers are giving extra help to the Hispanic children. Totes!
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | November 19, 2009 11:02 AM
I'm a mathematician with several friends of various ethnic backgrounds in Arizona. They're great women at the universities (ASU, UA) who do smokin' math and physics. One also organized fashion shows in high school. If this teacher wants to present some role models, why not write to the local institute of higher education and see if they have an outreach program? I *know* that one of my Arizona friends is already involved in math outreach!
Math outreach is valuable not only because a little girl might see someone who looks like her doing math, but because math outreach people often know a lot of cool math that elementary ed folks might not. Fractals are always super-cool and make some good activities. Hyperbolic geometry is good for kids at many age levels. Check out geoemtrygames.org for a way to start kids on some mind-blowing exploration. There is some really fun math out there that any kid will think is cool!
Posted by: kt | November 19, 2009 11:15 AM
Besides Danica McKellar's books, Jennifer Ouellette of the Cocktail Party Physics blog has just finished a book explaining the wonders of the calculus for a lay audience. I think it's due out next spring.
Posted by: chezjake | November 19, 2009 11:16 AM
This hit close to home for me, too. I grew up in Arizona, and went to schools that drew mainly from the lower income areas of my city. My Mom taught in one of those schools for most of her career.
Being seen to be smart was definitely not the path to popularity. How sad that this now matters in 4th grade. I don't remember it kicking in until 7th grade.
I'm struggling to come up with any advice for the teacher, too. I know what would have helped in high school (a visit from a geeky college girl who could have told me that things would get markedly better in college. Seeing an alumna return for homecoming and be introduced with something other than the number of children she had would have been nice, too). But 4th grade? I don't know. I think the idea of not praising the girl in public may be a good one. Let her try to lead a double life if she can.
Also maybe a visit from a female scientist or engineer would help. I used to go into my Mom's classroom (3rd grade) to do a simple physics experiment. She'd have them draw pictures of scientists before I came, and tell them a scientist was going to visit. They were always surprised to see me. Their pictures were always of an old guy with wild white hair.
The local AWIS or WISE chapter could probably hook her up with someone. I suspect there are chapters associated with both ASU and U of A.
Posted by: Cloud | November 19, 2009 11:43 AM
That was totally fucking hilarious how she poked herself in the eye and started crying! She is very talented!
If you were on Twitter you'd have seen that video days ago holmes....think of all the hilarity you are missing. You might even know what "chonies" means.
Posted by: El Picador | November 19, 2009 11:44 AM
1) The substance of this post is really beautiful, Dr. Isis.
2) The girl with the purse has melted my brain. But that doesn't mean you're not like, totally the coolest thing in the world though!
El Picador- *I* already knew what chonies meant. See link (note, NSFW and/or put your headphones in)
"I said you can't do that in public, I said even I wouldn't dare!"
*grooves*
Posted by: becca | November 19, 2009 1:09 PM
I, too, was the "smart girl" who was ostracized in junior high because I refused to dummy myself. I was lucky in having parents who wanted me to achieve anything and everything I desired and teachers who thought a pretty, fashionable girl could be a scientist &/or doctor someday.
In high school, I did enjoy my summer waitressing jobs where the guys just thought I was a "hot chick" and didn't think of me as the brainiac. Of course, I didn't marry any of them, but I did enjoy the (admittedly sexist) attention a bit. Some of them were pretty hot, too.
This teacher should keep encouraging this girl any way she can think of. She may not get the message at home. And it may sink in eventually.
Posted by: Pascale | November 19, 2009 1:27 PM
WOW! the blog post in which I learn more about Dr. Isis than all previous posts...
I had not the impression of you as a chola loca!
"Lean like a chola, way up high
thick eyeliner in my eye
cruise all day, drink all night
got four kids, with three guys
Lean Like a Chola"
your story has some heft to it here and helps (me at least) understand you better, and makes your "science" persona even more compelling.
Kudos for posting from the heart.
Posted by: Kevin (NYC) | November 19, 2009 1:47 PM
I was in the same boat with OmegaMom up at #2. I desperate in high school to not be smart, because getting good grades implied that you had nothing better to do than study when other kids were going to parties and getting into trouble and doing "cool" things. Thankfully, my parents kept me too busy to get into too much trouble, but I tried and tried to become someone that I wasn't in order to win the approval of a peer group who (I thought) valued "badass-ness" more that brains. (in the end, of course, I realized that all my badass friends were jealous of my good grades)
One solution (easier said than done) is to make kids realize that true friends will be proud of your accomplishments, whatever they are, and will encourage you to develop your skills. Sometimes those friends aren't going to be the people that you perceive to be "cool", but that's ok. If you think your friends aren't cool enough, then it also points to a need to change your own perception of what makes a person a good friend.
My struggles to gain acceptance into social groups that I didn't really fit into made much of my high school career pretty lonely. It wasn't until grad school that I was comfortable with myself to forge friendships with the people who really understand me. Nowadays, the only people from high school that I still have relationships with are the people that I tried to alienate all those years ago because they weren't "cool" enough for me.
SO, long story short - encourage this girl to develop her self esteem and follow whatever path makes her happy. Help her to realize that pursuing her talents will be much more fulfilling in the long run, and that you really can be smart AND cool.
Posted by: Kirsten | November 19, 2009 1:52 PM
I love that song, Kevin. But, for the record, I have one kid with one guy. Just saying.
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | November 19, 2009 1:53 PM
Oh, and I forgot another thing that can help convince kids that being smart is cool - putting them in classes with other kids like them. I was part of the "enrichment" program throughout high school, took advanced placement courses, and went to academic summer camp (www.satoricamp.org) - all of which put me in environments with other smart kids who taught me that it really could be cool to be smart.
Posted by: Kirsten | November 19, 2009 2:09 PM
Ok, I didn't read the whole post, cause I'm still ROTFL from the Chola Makeup tutorial. Hilarious. Why do Cholas and Shenaynays talk with the same cadence and rhythm? I love it.
Posted by: DNLee | November 19, 2009 2:22 PM
Gloria Nava is awesome, thanks so much for sharing. Also, she looks so much like my mother at that age that it is freaking me out a bit.
Posted by: yolio | November 19, 2009 4:20 PM
I'm sure you could adapt this approach successfully:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1701#comic
Posted by: Ketil Tveiten | November 19, 2009 6:53 PM
As others have already said, Danica McKellar's book might be helpful. You can see it at http://www.mathdoesntsuck.com/ It's in the form of a magazine so maybe it could be something she could share with her friends.
Another thing she should seriously look into is whether or not her school district has a GEMS group (Girls Excelling in Math and Science) http://www.gemsclub.org/. If not, she should consider starting one. It's an after school program for girls, which brings in outside speakers to talk about cool math and science. I think just creating an atmosphere of girls doing science is very successful. And if you can get the girl *and* her friends involved, you can show her that she can have both math and friends.
Posted by: anon | November 19, 2009 10:26 PM
#26 Kirsten -- I couldn't agree with you more that putting smart kids with smart kids helps the smart kids. I purposely did that with my own children and would not go back to do otherwise.
My children were either in private schools or magnet schools. They excelled among the excellent and were propelled to exceed by peer pressure.
However, I don't think this is the best overall solution for education in general. This solution so overlooks the average child. When there is no "excellent" icon to look up to, no goal toward which one should or could strive to achieve... mediocracy is not even attainable.
Though I find it difficult to put my finger on and define, I suspect there's certain amount of coerced race/ethnic affiliation hindering this child. A hint of "don't make the rest of us look bad".
This tendency to ostracize the achievers of any race (whites included) pisses me off to no end. But it especially pisses me off when races other than white accuse achievers of "acting white".
Why? Because of the color distortion that does not allow them to see that whites do this same damned thing to each other... and because it's so damned destructive to everyone.
For background, note that I spent my first two years of HS in a predominately Hispanic area, and my last two in a newly integrated southern school. This gives you an idea of my age.
And it's my age that has allowed me to see how racial lines, prejudice, and yes, hatred, have hardened and calcified over the years. I hate every moment of it. IMHO, we have gone backward, not forward.
Posted by: Donna B. | November 19, 2009 10:41 PM
I grew up in east Los Angeles in the early 80's. I was, quite literally, the only blonde kid all the way through 5th grade, when we moved.
There are definite things I remember about the school I attended. One is that everyone - students, teachers, and staff - seemed to want to succeed educationally. I think there was, below the surface, a common belief that the only way to get the kids out of the ghetto was to make sure we could think our way out.
The other thing, perhaps ironically, is that I never noticed the fact that I was the only blonde. There were other caucasians - mostly eastern European or Russian - but most of my classmates were Hispanic of various origins. I never even thought about it. It wasn't until I moved to a mostly-white upper-middle-class suburb that I noticed that I was no longer a minority, at least physically.
We had one teacher who ran the "GATE" program (which stands for Gifted And Talented Education; basically, the equivalent of accelerated learning) named Mrs. Shippy (I think that's how she spelled it). She gathered up the 10 or so of us (pretty much the same 10 for the entire time I was there) in the back of the library for a couple hours a day. We did things like dissect cow eyes, study more advanced math - we were even involved in the national run-up for the Challenger launch.
But everything that she - and most of the other teachers - tried to do with us revolved around getting us interested in *something*. Like baseball? Here's the physics behind it, how it works. Like fashion? Here's information on light, optics, fabrics, chemical compositions, etc. Really get into romance stories? Here's some classic works of fiction, literary analysis, etc.
It's not enough to convince someone that it isn't "uncool" to do something; you have to help them get enough drive to do it whether it's cool or not. That drive is what gets you through midterms or masters' programs, through mile 20 of a marathon or or even day 22 of a workout routine. That's what we picked up, more than anything, from every person down to the ladies serving in the cafeteria at a small school in east L.A., and it's something I only saw in a few teachers at what were supposed to be some of the best schools in the nation later on.
Posted by: Austin | November 20, 2009 11:38 AM
I take a slightly devious approach with my 7th grader - she's a bit of a loner and likes to have things that set her apart, and she doesn't mind a fight. (She related a take-down she did with her Health teacher who yammered on about using chiropractic to cure allergies. She was fierce, backing the teacher into a "well, it works for me" shrug.)
I encourage her by appealing to her feisty side. I tell her, look around you. Those kids who slide along at the minimal level make it easier for someone who puts the time in to make an impression. She's interested in physics (although her only awareness of the subject right now comes from her geophysicist Dad) so I occasionally point out to her how few women go into physics. It's a little sneaky, but fun to egg her on.
Posted by: Dacks | November 20, 2009 2:32 PM
ROFLMAO @ the chola makeup tutorial. I am SO doing the wings.
Posted by: Nekohime | November 20, 2009 2:49 PM
Austin@32 HEAR HEAR - wonderful story - should be more of it. The appeal to the individual, and the care of those around to care for kids as individuals!
But it seems that the original letterwriter's mother IS a caring teacher, and understands the individual - so hopefully she will be doing something effective, along these lines, and just needs encouragement.
But remember this is just a fourth-grader - what is she? EIGHT years old (plus/minus a year?) Pushing too hard might just be stressful, too.
Posted by: d. | November 20, 2009 3:17 PM
i didn't read all the comments, just catching up here, but what about a girls in science type program? my undergrad university and many, many others run a summer math/science program for girls. they would set up exciting mysteries that they solved with cool math and science. the principal group leaders were female professors, and the student assistants were junior and senior math and science majors. i think it really made a difference.
Posted by: leigh | November 21, 2009 6:57 PM
I know it has been mentioned before, but I will reiterate that she might like to look up Danica McKellar (http://www.danicamckellar.com/) who was a TV actor and also a UCLA math major. She has a couple math research papers and had a decent TV career. She is rather girly, and her books emphasize that being a girl and being good at math do not necessarily conflict one another. I think it may just be the right kind of thing for this student.
-femprof
Posted by: femprof | November 22, 2009 3:02 AM
I'm sure everyone else has already read this interview with the women nobel laureates, from 'Science', but it may be worth a re-read for ideas and inspiration - note the final question about a talk to 9-yr-old girls by Carol.
30 OCTOBER 2009 VOL 326 SCIENCE www.sciencemag.org
Posted by: d. | November 25, 2009 5:14 PM