I had a conversation the other day with some colleagues that really struck a chord with me (let's call them Dick and Jane). I think that it really highlighted a generally unappreciated issue that non-Mexican, Hispanic minorities face and I asked their permission to share the content of the conversation with you. They graciously agreed. So, here it goes....
First, Jane said:
I was sitting with a group of people when one of my colleagues said, "I'm not prejudiced, but all Mexicans suck. They're low-class people and all Mexican men cheat." I really hated that everyone else sat there listening, thinking he must know what he's talking about because he's Peruvian. They just nod and smile and act like there's nothing wrong with generalizing an entire group of people based on a select group of people that someone else happens to have come across.
And then I replied:
Let this battle go this time, Jane. These feelings are more common and complex than you realize.
To which Dick added:
Yeah, Isis, he's not spewing anything novel - what's relatively novel is his comfort level in feeling so free to be blatant and undisguised and non-subtle about it in an academic setting. I expect to hear that kind of stuff when I go back home. In my experience, at least, in academic and other professional settings, that sort of stuff tends to come out in more subtle and disguised ways, even in groups where people are certain they are in an all white group.
And Jane later appended:
I should note that all this was precipitated by someone asking "You don't really think it's offensive to be called 'Mexican', do you?"
This is when I realized that my friends' hearts were in exactly the right place, discrimination is certainly always wrong, but that they were not privy to an important caveat of the Hispanic experience in America -- when you're brown and speak Spanish, you must be Mexican. If you're brown and Spanish-speaking in America, then surely you or your ancestors snuck across the river, you are certainly collecting some type of public assistance, and you're probably pretty good at either mowing lawns, picking fruit, or construction. You are definitely here to steal someone's job. You and and your fourteen children (from 10 illegal fathers), born here so you couldn't be deported, are the reason health care is so expensive and you can't get your flu shot.
Figure 1: Shown in green, the United States of Mexico.
Despite the fact that Latin America contains 20 unique countries, has a people that speak 3 major language and countless additional dialects, comprises 14% of the Earth's total land mass, and has a population of more than 569 million people (or which, only 111 million are Mexican), many people in the United State equate Latino-ness with one thing...
Figure 2: Por ser mojado, unless you're from New York, in which case you may be Puerto Rican or from Florida, where you're probably Cuban. But, I digress...
Is it offensive to be asked if you're Mexican? I don't think so. I like Mexico and have spent a lot of time there. Is it offensive to ask if one really minds being called Mexican, or to have people assume that you must be Mexican? Well, yes. Because to ask this question indicates that you are too ignorant to learn the other 19 countries in Latin America and the differences between the people that inhabit them.
I've written before about my darling South American family. My abuelo came here legally, worked a blue collar job in this country for many years and gave generously to his community of his time and money, but spoke English with a heavy accent. People asked me if he was here illegally. I've had people call my pale-skinned self a beaner and a wetback when I've been in groups speaking Spanish. My family would have had an awfully long swim. I only know how to make tortillas and carnitas because I had Mexican friends with mothers who taught me. I learned to make empanadas, ceviche, and llapingachos from my family. Still, many people here don't appreciate the difference between the cultures. When they think of Latin food...
Figure 3: ¡Olé! But, to learn where the best tacos in Los Angeles are, check out the Great Taco Hunt.This ignorance is leading to a greater problem among American Hispanics. Being Mexican shouldn't be offensive, but the reality is that being Mexican in the United States has a particular set of offensive prejudices affiliated with it:
Figure 4: Here you can read about how illegal immigrants are the source of disease, poverty, sex crimes, terrorism, gangs, traffic accidents, and drug trafficking, and how immigrants are destroying American culture. ¡Órale güey!
My friend Dick commented that he was surprised that someone would make these comments in the open in academia. I'm not so surprised. For someone who has worked hard to achieve a particular level of success, being discriminated against can be a painful experience - one which many people try to distance themselves from. This, in part, is why the progeny of Latin immigrants generally lose the Spanish language by the third generation, and South and Central American immigrants lose their fluency sooner.
This all is the result of real, institutionalized racism against a subgroup of people, that adversely affects other related subgroups. I can't condone Jane's colleague's behavior, but I am also not quite so willing to crucify him either. I'm not saying he's right, but I am saying I can understand how a set of circumstances may have led him to feel as he does and I just plain feel bad about it.
¡Qué lástimo!, indeed.
Education
Politics
Comments
19? Ok, lemme think... Um, that safe American speaking place for honeymoon is Bolivize. Uh, Brazillia, Amazoñia, Andes, ...er..Colombia (easy!), San Salvadoro, Noriegua...Panama, the one that commie dude runs- Vesuvia or something, um..shit this is hard.
Posted by: BikeMonkey | November 25, 2009 6:02 PM
I'm guessing that studying Central and South America is not, then, standard fare in 6th grade in the U.S. as it seems to have been when I was growing up.
Still, when people hear news reports about leaders of these nations, say, calling the U.S. president el Diablo (as happened during the last presidency), wouldn't they want to look at a globe to see where said smack-talking presidentes live?
Posted by: Dr. Free-Ride | November 25, 2009 6:16 PM
i talked to an argentine exchange student once whose host family welcomed him with "latin food." which consisted of really spicy mexican food! he was really perplexed as to why this sort of family had been chosen to host students from foreign countries. they meant well, but they were a little deficient in the knowledge dept.
when you're brown and speak Spanish, you must be Mexican.
you can make the and speak Spanish part optional :-) most brown(ish)-skinned people i know from the middle east and south asia who live on the west coast have had the experience of being called "beaner" and "wetback." though to be fair the majority of my personal experiences as someone living in an overwhelmingly anglo area has been the request to provide translation services which i can not provide since i don't know spanish!
the weirdest experience i had was an old mexican american guy who cussed me out (in fluent english) for neglecting "my heritage" when i worked at a supermarket when i as 18 and gave him a blank look when he asked me something in spanish.
Posted by: razib | November 25, 2009 6:16 PM
Asian and European immigrants lose their native tongues in fewer generations than Mexican/South American immigrants according to that press release, so I'm not sure how this is an indication of institutionalized racism. Unless the racism also applies to Asians/Europeans.
And how is other people's ignorance of your culture offensive? I mean, so offensive that it justifies being outright racist in an academic setting. (I know, you said "I'm not saying he's right," but the fact is, he's wrong).
Posted by: zylph | November 25, 2009 6:21 PM
There are at least two reasons this Peruvian fellow might have acted the way he did.
Firstly, as you noted, the need to distance yourself from a group you don't belong to because there are severe disadvantages of being *seen* as belonging to that group. It's not noble, but it's very understandable.
Secondly, there *are* actually minorities that are utterly tone deaf as to their own prejudices, and relatively few members of the majority group are about to politically correct them, so to speak. It's sometimes futile anyway. I'm looking at you, Carebear.
"If you're straight you become gay, and if you're gay you become mexican. Everybody goes down a notch!"/family guy
Posted by: becca | November 25, 2009 6:27 PM
Oh, oh, oh! Here it comes....
*whine*But, what about the European immigrants???*whine*
Whatever.
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | November 25, 2009 6:28 PM
Recently, a group of colleagues (all scientists) were discussing where to break away from the lab to eat lunch. One mentioned a Mexican restaurant and I (the only Latina in the lab) quickly interjected: "No, I am really not fond of Mexican food." I omitted the point about my lactose intolerance. A scientist (not Latina/o) jumped in: "YOU?! How can YOU not like Mexican food!?" A near rage overwhelmed me. I provided a long-winded explanation about subgroups that comprise Latino-Americans and the relative variation in cuisine types. I nearly ate her face for lunch. I felt OFFENDED. About FOOD. As a non-Mexican Latina, should I have been so irate? Your post brings up good points. We are often fighting for diversity in academia, then advocating for disaggregation when we are addressed individually.
Dr. Isis, when I read your description of your "pale-skinned self..speaking Spanish" it reminded me of "choice." I look forward to your post on "passing" in academia.
Posted by: @ArkhamAsylumDoc | November 25, 2009 6:32 PM
One of my friends is a female MD from Central America (not Mexico, although my 8th Social Studies teacher lumped Mexico and Central America together), and is married to a male PhD from a different Central American country (again, not Mexico). They have two adorable boys, one who just started kindergarten. Two things highlight their experiences as naturalized US citizens: (1) During my friend's residency, a patient actually said that she (the patient) didn't know Mexicans could be doctors in the US. (2) When my friends enrolled their older son in school, they filled out the paperwork, checked the "Hispanic" box on the paperwork, and forgot about it. Two weeks later, their enrollment confirmation/school assignment packet came in the mail, and their son was classified as "Mexican" and put in an ESL classroom (not the Spanish immersion classroom, as the parents requested - English is their son's first language. In their school system, there is a huge difference in pedagogy between those two classes). My sister's husband is of Mexican birth, is a legal US resident, and deals with the stereotypes all the time (and now my nephews are hearing it, although not with the same vitriol, thankfully). It also reminds me of the active discrimination that my Gaelic-speaking Irish great-grandparents faced in the late 1800s and early 1900s, when Irish immigrants were the lazy, uneducated, crooked ones suitable only for work as domestics. In any case, there is a huge difference between cultural ignorance and blatant stereotyping [I hate being stereotyped as "stupid" simply because I wear hearing aids.]
Posted by: Jen | November 25, 2009 6:39 PM
Well, people seldom mistake me for Mexican, but when they find out that I’m Cuban in these parts, they often assume I can make a variety of Mexican dishes and ask me how spicy—meaning hot—I like my food. I don’t know that I would crucify the Peruvian, but I don’t think that I could have kept my eyes from bulging out of their sockets if he truly made the statement, “I’m not prejudiced, but all XXX suck.” Even if he were a Mexican talking about Mexicans. Does he not know the meaning of “oxymoron”?
I’m sorry, but crap like that shouldn’t be given a free pass, regardless of the source. But, yes …¡Qué lástima!, indeed.
Posted by: Hope | November 25, 2009 8:28 PM
@ArkhamAsylumDoc: We are often fighting for diversity in academia, then advocating for disaggregation when we are addressed individually.
This I don’t get. How is correcting someone’s misconceptions about your culture “advocating for disaggregation”? And how is this in conflict with “fighting for diversity”?
Posted by: Hope | November 25, 2009 8:34 PM
I am not at all surprised with the level of education or knowledge some of you, if not all "US people" have of the "outside world". I have been to the US on many occasion (my work dictates) and you almost surprise me with something outrageoasly wrong when it comes to common "outside the US" knowledge. But on domestic matters, you are not that good either, really. You really need to get out more.
Posted by: RedTop | November 25, 2009 8:37 PM
Just one more thing: perhaps the Peruvian should watch the Seinfeld episode The Outing (http://www.seinfeld-fan.net/videos/seinfeld10.mov) – not that there's anything wrong with that ….
Posted by: Hope | November 25, 2009 9:08 PM
I'm of Mexican descent through my mother.
The family used to hang out with South American students at a nearby university. I heard some real horror stories about how the rich people down there treated common people.
Got to wonder about this Peruvian's background.
Posted by: rnb | November 25, 2009 9:11 PM
"This, in part, is why the progeny of Latin immigrants generally lose the Spanish language by the third generation, and South and Central American immigrants lose their fluency sooner."
Well, since about half the South Americans don't speak Spanish* to begin with, is it such a surprise that their kids aren't fluent?
* fluently, as a first language. I know lots of Brazilians who took Spanish in school because it ticked the foreign language requirement and was easier** than English or German.
** From their perspective, of course. Although I must say, as someone who got roped into translating for German tourists with zero Portuguese, Spanish, or English in Manaus, Portuguese -> German is hard on the brain. At least, for my linguistically impoverished anglo brain.
Posted by: Lab Lemming | November 25, 2009 9:30 PM
Yeah, those damn newcomers like this dude.
Posted by: D. C. Sessions | November 25, 2009 10:02 PM
My people are Portuguese immigrants. We live in California (where I was born). Sometimes we are taken for Hispanics who can't speak Spanish very well. The Portuguese-Americans of my acquaintance do not, in general, think of themselves as Hispanic, although sometimes "Latino" is acceptable. We are all certainly of Iberian descent. In a generation or two, however, we lose the Portuguese language and end up English monolinguals.
But it's a confusing situation.
Posted by: Zeno | November 25, 2009 10:10 PM
From that list of food...I think you may be from the country where my technician (who is awesome and will be applying for PhD programs next year) is from.
Posted by: pinus | November 25, 2009 10:33 PM
I'm Mexican of Spanish descent. Whenever I travel to the US or Canada (or Europe for that matter) I'm always told 'but you don't look Mexican' when I mention my nationality. It's a bit annoying.
But anyway. I do get why they want to distance themselves. We're the country easiest to recognize from Iberoamerica, so to be constantly confused... I get it. But we're not that bad.
Also, becoming monolingual after coming from a bilingual family seems like a waste. They have a chance to use both really well and learn them cheaply!
Posted by: Arturo | November 25, 2009 10:48 PM
The other thing people forget is that just as people from various European countries have prejudices against each other, people from some Latin American countries also have negative stereotypes of people from other countries on their continent/region. So the Peruvian man may have been upset at being mistaken for Mexican the same way someone from the Ukraine would be upset at being mistaken for Russian (or vice versa).
As an aside, being from the Northeast means I haven't lived anywhere that had Mexican as the default assumption. For example, in NYC when I was growing up, Hispanics were assumed to be Puerto Rican (many ethnic stereotypes, but no assumptions about immigration status).
Posted by: MGW | November 25, 2009 10:51 PM
I'm Mexican of Spanish descent. Whenever I travel to the US or Canada (or Europe for that matter) I'm always told 'but you don't look Mexican' when I mention my nationality. It's a bit annoying.
But anyway. I do get why they want to distance themselves. We're the country easiest to recognize from Iberoamerica, so to be constantly confused... I get it. But we're not that bad.
Also, becoming monolingual after coming from a bilingual family seems like a waste. They have a chance to use both really well and learn them cheaply!
Posted by: Arturo | November 25, 2009 10:56 PM
I once had a conversation with my Cuban/El Salvadorian friend about this. When anyone referred to him as Mexican, he would become livid. I asked him about this and he told me that Mexico was considered to be the lowest end of the totem pole in the Hispanic community, especially among Cubans. Not exactly a very encouraging message by any means, but it is worth remembering. The US attitude towards Mexicans certainly doesn't help either. My aforementioned friend told me that the police would section off his entire neighborhood and drag everyone off the streets into vans. If you didn't have your papers they would detain you as well. He actually was detained once as a child until his mother came and proved he was a citizen. He said it was one of the most embarrassing experiences of his life.
So keep all this in mind before you go around calling anyone a "Mexican".
Posted by: Chris O. | November 25, 2009 11:42 PM
Isis, thanks for shining a light on this difficult and tangled topic. Structural, institutionalized racism works in so many ways to do its damage, and it hurts so many more people than just the "target" group, as the post and the comments here amply demonstrate.
Posted by: Zuska | November 26, 2009 12:23 AM
When I read posts like this, I begin to lose faith in our society. What the hell is wrong with us when "immigrant" becomes an epithet because of the implied "illegal" qualifier? And let's face it: these loons aren't complaining about illegal immigrants from Eastern Europe, Australia, or any other pale-skinned place. Let's just call it what it is: xenophobic bigotry, primarily aimed at Mexicans.
I must lead a sheltered life, because these conversations would have been improper in any circle in which I've participated. My own little neighborhood is quite diverse, being in the shadow of a large MRU. I like to say that we have at least two of everything here. Pick any demographic, and we've got 'em. My own family is lilly white, but my kids have had friends of all complexions, from places all over the world, most still in touch via Facebook. My son's best friend is an American-born boy of Mexican parents. My daughter's most consistent playmates hail from Sudan and Korea. Our neighborhood elementary school boasts the highest test scores in our high-scoring school district - and the greatest diversity among the student population (no single demographic holds a majority!)
I can't imagine a circle of colleagues idly chatting and tolerating one of their own opining "I'm not prejudiced, but..." (does anything good ever follow that lead-in?) "...all suck!..."
I think it's time to see these outbursts (or their tolerance) as the logical outcome of the heated political rhetoric du jour, which vilifies Mexicans, and openly questions the immigration status of any brown-skinned person. It's now time to stop tolerating these attitudes, as was done with African Americans decades ago. I guess the real finesse is in doing it tactfully in a manner suitable to the company you keep.
Posted by: TGAP Dad | November 26, 2009 1:04 AM
Generalizing about people in every country in the western hemisphere south of the U.S.A. is usually a recipe for disaster. ("Well, they all speak Spanish, except for the biggest country, where they speak Portuguese, and several countries in the Caribbean where they speak French or English, and a bunch of areas where they speak a variety of Native American languages.")
My brother who lived in New Mexico and Texas for a few years told me about how a lot of the old Spanish-speaking Tejanos and New Mexicans, whose ancestors were there long before there were any Anglo-Americans in the area, HATE being confused with Mexicans simply because they speak Spanish.
Posted by: Paul S. | November 26, 2009 1:44 AM
Is their respective dominant national languages the only reason that Guyana and Suriname are excluded from your map of Latin America? Or is there a broader cultural difference that I have never been aware of?
Posted by: Toaster | November 26, 2009 1:59 AM
In my circle of friends there are Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Venezuelans and Guatemalans.
I've noted that all four groups have an open disdain for Mexicans.
Only Mexican I've ever run across was as white as me, and an asshole but I don't paint all Mexicans as assholes. Just this one in particular.
Posted by: Tony P | November 26, 2009 2:01 AM
Excellent rebuttal, Isis. I don't doubt for a minute that institutionalized racism exists against Latin Americans. Or Mexicans (who appear to be a separate species in your tirade). I've seen it, first-hand. But the fact is, Latin Americans lose their native tongue more slowly than other US immigrants. So maybe that wasn't the best example of "going along to get along" that you could come up with. Peruvians calling Mexicans cheats and lowlifes would be an excellent example of that. Argentinians excusing Peruvians for being outright racists would be an equally excellent example.
Posted by: zylph | November 26, 2009 2:29 AM
My husband is Guatemalan. We live in California and he is often called Mexican, which annoys him to no end, since Guatemalans, as a rule, don't like Mexicans.
More annoying, however, is everyone's assumption that Guatemalan food is exactly like Mexican food, especially (as others have mentioned) the spiciness. Though you can find hot chiles in Guatemala, the typical cuisine in most of the country is not spicy at all, and does not involve tacos, enchiladas, or burritos (well, not in the Mexican sense, anyways).
We are doing our part to help people learn that different countries are, in fact, different from each other :)
Posted by: Shannon | November 26, 2009 6:02 AM
Oh where to begin, with the history part, teaching courses in latino/a history and having to explain to PH.D. level colleagues that NO THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE SPAIN, which last time I checked still sat on the continent of Europe? With the courses I teach on ethnicity and whiteness in which my white “ethnic” students are SHOCKED by their ancestral past but cannot make the leap to understanding current immigration politics? With my own mestizaje children who draw comments SO fucking frequently when they are out with me? With my own tangle of familial relations that count only as the “same” (Latino) in the United States since you know THEY COME FROM DIFFERENT CONTINENTS that just happen to have been conquered by the Spanish (pan-latinism having died out QUITE some time ago)? With the long etymological arguments on holidays about which Spanish word is correct for household items (feMOMhist should STOP trying to use relatives to teach little fMH children Spanish). Maybe it would suffice to say that your situation SUCKS and that you are FAR nicer in letting people of the hook than I am.
and Zylph "But the fact is, Latin Americans lose their native tongue more slowly than other US immigrants." historically inaccurate (http://www.news.wisc.edu/15801), but based on apples/oranges comparison. Many immigrant groups leave homelands to which they cannot return, giving them higher incentive to acquire English more quickly. According to a not particularly liberal think tank (http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_59.htm) "
"While the English skills of Mexican immigrants are lower than those of other immigrant groups, their apparent rate of progress is higher. But this finding might simply reflect the higher rates of return migration of those who would not be expected to have learned English."
Early language assimilation rates were driven in large part by massive private efforts to teach English to highly motivated immigrants WHO HAD NO INTENTION/OPTION OF RETURNING TO A COUNTRY CONNECTED TO THE U.S. See excellent ppt here www.cal.org/caela/esl_resources/ESLhistory.ppt
Posted by: feMOMhist | November 26, 2009 7:00 AM
[As I was reading this post, my husband turned on the TV...and I heard Speedy Gonzales! I kid you not! The root of many a Mexican stereotype - I could only laugh.]
Yes, this type of behavior still exists, although, for the most part, it is not as bad as it used to be. And, we do our best to correct and enlighten others in the hope that it will be a thing of the past.
Posted by: Abril | November 26, 2009 9:00 AM
It is common to disdain your neighboring country. French people used to say that Africa begins at the other side of the Pirinees (that is Spain), Chileans talk bad of Peruvians and Argentinians, Argentinians talk bad of Chileans and Paraguayans, Paraguayans, oh you get the idea. Take a map if you want to follow the thread.
Colombians were regarded by Venezuelans as thiefs, terrorists and drug dealers. Now, is the other way around, Venezuelans are the thiefs, terrorists and drug dealers in the eyes of Colombians, other Venezuelans and the rest of the world. A very complex world is Latin America and the USA. How such a beatiful and energetic country has a big proportion of ignoramuses that can't tell the difference between Ciudad de Mexico and Buenos Aires? That lack of education explains your mistakes.
Great Isis: nunca pierdas el español. Una Diosa que además de un gran blog y un gusto exquisito sabe otros idiomas! Deberían erigir un nuevo templo en Karnak
Posted by: cambrico | November 26, 2009 10:01 AM
Gracias, cambrico. Puedes adorar en mi templo cuando quieras, querido.
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | November 26, 2009 12:34 PM
Obviously, we all need to get behind Lou Dobbs' campaign for President so such prejudice can be eliminated. [snark mode off]
Posted by: MoM | November 26, 2009 1:28 PM
And then there are the Old-World Spanish... one part-Spanish friend, a wealthy cosmopolitan European to her elegant fingertips and multilingual (unlike this archetypical scruffy monoglot Brit!), found it really offensive that in north America her Hispanic accented English meant she was often asked questions by 'well meaning people' that implied that she came from a very poor home, or from the developing world... It's interesting that people seem to accept that speaking English doesn't mean you are inevitably from the USA or England, but get confused that Spanish and French are the main language in many regions other than Mexico and Quebec, or Spain and France in the UK...
Posted by: JaneB | November 26, 2009 2:05 PM
The desire to simplify latin-ness leads to so many sources of discomfort for actual latino gentes. If you are brown, then you must be an immigrant and broke (never mind that a huge chunk of this country was mexico before it was the US) and you should always "perform" your ethnicity by making spicy food and dancing colorfully at parties. If you are too white and/or americanized then you are considered phony and pretentious for "claiming" latin heritage. If you don't fit neatly into the box, then somehow it is your job to apologize for being so hard to understand. Folks really don't give you a space to live in, you are forced to claim a space.
Posted by: yolio | November 26, 2009 2:56 PM
We in Latin America have racism too. Not as open or filled with hate as in US, but it exists. White people in Latin America are regarded as rich, snobbish people that rob the poor. Blacks are regarded as lazy, ignorant and given to steal. Indians (native americans), as lazy and not very bright. Even among the whites you get stereotipes and generalizations about italians, jews, spaniards, etc. Chinese are regarded as hard working but also as totally out of touch with their environment. So, in such a complicated world, we mingle, work together and get to know each other, realizing that all the good and bad things apply to everybody.
The outcome: brown people, because we have being mixing races since the Spanish colonization, and got such contradictions as the word "negro" (black), that can be uttered as a show of love or hate: "mi negra bella" (my beatiful black girl/woman, female") is a show of love toward your girlfriend, mother or any other female, even if she is not black. On the other hand "negro tenía que ser" (he had to be black), is an offensive expression toward a colored person that acts like an ass.
There is a saying that in every group of friends over here, there are always a fat, a skinny, a clueless and a black. If there is no black, the one with the browner skin is designated "the black" and gets all the racial jokes. That could be not political correct o ethical at all in the US, but here, nobody cares.
Posted by: cambrico | November 26, 2009 4:26 PM
I didn't know you were Latin American. Suddenly I like you a whole lot more ;)
Posted by: Aurora | November 27, 2009 7:24 AM
Mexican, Panamanian, Hondurean and Cuban...who cares? the Play has been taken out of the pup for Anglos. Everyday its a new horror story of some crimes, some cost some something that indicates assimilation into this country has failed. Unchecked immigration, failed regimes, and my personal favorite "freedom seeking refugees" have swamped and decimated what every law abiding American gets up and strives for. Cuban, Haitian and Some South American cultures float up, slither across and conduct business as usual, beg, borrow, steal and plunder another culture that cant wrap their head around this type of behavor. The hell with them..we clean house first, then maybe we can afford to be policcally correct, until then? Americans are taking a hard line..so get use to it or get out..
Posted by: Val | November 27, 2009 11:15 AM
I'm not sure whether Val is a troll or a Poe, and I don't care.
I grew up in the Miami area, so I never had the luxury of thinking of Latin America as one country. Of course the most common origin for the Hispanics I encountered was Cuban, and by the time I was in high school Cubans were joining the ranks of the local political and economic elite. Next most common, from 1979 onward, were the Nicaraguans, well-off people who bailed out once it was clear Somoza was going down. I knew people from quite a few other places in Latin America, too--pretty much anywhere except Mexico, as it happens. They, too, tended to be well off. The state where I live now (New Hampshire) doesn't have that many Hispanics, but the ones who do settle here are hard workers--they certainly don't come here for the climate, which is muy desagradable for anyone accustomed to the tropics. In short, the "lazy, poor Mexican" stereotype of Hispanics runs counter to my experience with people from Latin America. But I do have relatives, living places other than the east coast, who have absorbed some of the stereotype, including one cousin who apparently thinks they speak Mexican in Mexico.
Posted by: Eric Lund | November 27, 2009 5:19 PM
I’m surprised that only one other person on this thread has expressed the sentiment that the Peruvian guy should not be allowed to get away with making such a prejudiced remark. Not to crucify him is one thing (that does sound a bit extreme), but not to say anything, or to encourage your colleagues to just “let it go,” is wrong. I would argue that it’s especially important for the Peruvian to get the message that what he said is unacceptable from other Hispanics for the same reasons that feminists want/need male allies. But Hispanic or not, *no one* should sit idly by while someone spouts that kind of garbage.
If a straight woman who was routinely mistaken for a lesbian said, “I’m not prejudiced, but all lesbians suck,” etc., would we be willing to cut her as much slack? Would people be chiming in with stories of what such-and-such a group thinks about lesbians? I think not.
Empathize with the Peruvian guy all you want, but at the end of the day, he needs to be held accountable for his words and the damage that they do, just like anybody else.
Posted by: Hope | November 27, 2009 6:12 PM
zylph: "And how is other people's ignorance of your culture offensive?"
It's not just the ignorance. It's the assumptions. If one is ignorant of someone else's culture, then one should be try to avoid making assumptions about it and to take any stereotypes that come to mind with a grain, nay, a boulder of salt.
Posted by: J. J. Ramsey | November 28, 2009 8:33 AM
Exactly, Hope, exactly. We should totes be addressing the real story which is the brown racism against the brown. Dressing his ass down is absofuckinglutelu the most insightful and informative thing Isis could have addressed. Thank goodness you are around to set Isis straight. (Hey do you have your own blog?)
Posted by: BikeMonkey | November 28, 2009 10:34 AM
BikeMonkey- tell a Dalit that brown racism against the brown doesn't count.
Just because, given the historical legacy, a remotely socially astute white person in this country should NOT be trying to assume they are in a position to judge this Peruvian, does not mean that what this Peruvian is doing is Officially Not a Problem (even compared to other things).
So while Dr. Isis might be right, and it's probably wise for Jane to let this one go, I often wish someone would suggest an option in between "idly sitting by" and "dressing his ass down".
Posted by: becca | November 28, 2009 11:40 AM
Are you people shitting me? Am I really being berating for attempting to explore the nuances of this prejudice? Have you folks learned nothing from this thread about Hispanic relations other than "Isis didn't dress him down"?
Unfuckingbelievable.
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | November 28, 2009 12:57 PM
Isis,
Chi se ne frega ? Prejudice is prejudice and one just moves on.
Posted by: pppp | November 28, 2009 6:36 PM
Pointing out that statements like “All XXX suck,” are, by definition, prejudiced is something that anyone—brown or white—can do.
Posted by: Hope | November 28, 2009 6:46 PM
Hope,
I am under the impression that some words very commonly and casually used (i.e. suck) have lost their original derogatory meaning. I have the feeling that we all are sometimes "prejudiced to prejudice". Perhaps prejudice would vanish if we'd give or were given the opportunity to talk closer.
Posted by: allyse | November 28, 2009 7:40 PM
Oooh! Oooh! I learned something!
I learned that when a woman (or "girl") creates a group to talk about lipstick and shoes, one that also distances themselves from feminism, it actually is throwing one's sisters under the bus to some extent (an assessment I did not disagree with).
However, when the member of another outgroup tries to escape prejudice by actively throwing another outgroup under the bus, while reinforcing the prejudices of the ingroup, that's a "nuanced" situation.
I also learned that pointing out that the Goddess is wrong about something = immediate dismissal.
It's your soapbox, you don't have to crucify the Peruvian guy if you don't want to (and I do understand his motivations). But I still think that what he did was completely unacceptable.
Posted by: zylph | November 29, 2009 6:44 PM
I have a Peruvian co-worker fond of saying the same types of prejudicial things against Mexicans and against Hispanics in general, often to other Hispanic coworkers. He doesn't get very far with that.
But this post brought up a very funny though rather pathetic memory for me. I spent a summer out west some years ago and had the privilege of befriending a lovely Navajo woman. Like many Navajo she has a Spanish name and can "pass" for Hispanic if you don't know better. I cannot begin to describe her righteous fury as she ranted about white people telling her to go back to *her* country. The irony!
Posted by: Melinda | November 30, 2009 1:39 PM
Isis, I totally understand where you're coming from and I'm really glad that you did this post (it was kind of a "yes, that's right girl" moment for me). The Peruvian guy was wrong and well I guess that on it self could be a whole other post. But I do know that there is some strange blood between Peruvians and Mexicans, and I don't know why either, just that there is (seriously I've witnessed it on the internet and in real life) and it baffles me. So maybe the guy's complaints are coming from a different place and not necessarily from the "I'm not Mexican" place.
Anyway just one more thing, you seem concerned with this:
"This, in part, is why the progeny of Latin immigrants generally lose the Spanish language by the third generation, and South and Central American immigrants lose their fluency sooner."
So I assume that you are talking to little isis in Spanish?, if you want him to learn you should be talking and reading to him in Spanish. Even if he doesn't learn the language right now it will easier for him to pick it up later on.
Posted by: GC | December 1, 2009 4:33 AM