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Getting The Mooney Treatment

Category: Evolution
Posted on: November 13, 2006 11:45 AM, by Carl Zimmer

Things have not been going so well on the political front for the advocates of intelligent design (a k a the progeny of creationism). This election season their allies on state boards of education in Kansas and Ohio went down to defeat. On the scientific front, things have never really gone well. The Discovery Institute in Seattle claims that it has spent millions on research. They have precious little to show for it. As I wrote last year, a single evolutionary biologist produces more papers in peer-reviewed biology journals than the entire staff of the Discovery Institute. You'd be hard-pressed to find a single paper that actually claims that intelligent design is supported by original evidence. The closest they got to such a minimal standard--a review of the Cambrian explosion--was later retracted by the journal. The Discovery Institute claims that it's got all sorts of stuff in the works, but they aren't ready to share it with the world. Instead, they'd prefer to attack journalists.

In September, Casey Luskin of the Discovery Institute posted a 31-page attack on fellow scienceblogger Chris Mooney. Mooney is the author of the excellent Republican War on Science, which details some of the strategies the Discovery Institute uses to promote Intelligent Design, and the resounding rejection of intelligent design by the courts. As I wrote at the time, Luskin's charges were empty.

Now I'm getting the Mooney treatment.

The occasion is the publication of my article in the current issue National Geographic about the evolution of complex features. In the article I survey several examples of complex features such as flowers and eyes, and I describe the latest research into their evolution.

Yesterday, Casey Luskin took to the Discovery Institute's "Evolution News and Views" site to post part one of an attack on the article. How many parts do have to look forward to? Luskin doesn't offer a clue. But in part one, Luskin has already offered a wealth of misrepresentations and faulty reasoning.

The headline of Luskin's piece is "National Geographic Evolution Article Discusses Evidence that Supports Intelligent Design." Luskin claims that I am selectively and misleadingly presenting information to make the case for evolution. If I presented the whole picture, the case for Intelligent Design (the idea that life is so complex it must have been created by an Intelligent Designer) would become clear.

To explain why this is wrong, I need to take a minute to explain how most science writing is typically done. You become familiar with a subject by reading recent papers in the leading peer-reviewed journals. You call the authors of those papers. You talk to other experts who have a similar track record. In some cases they agree on the big picture. In other cases, they differ sharply. You then try to craft all this information into an article that can introduce the subject to readers who are not familiar with it. Do you quote all the papers you've read, verbatim? Of course not. You choose the best examples of the sort of work that has led scientists to their general conclusions. But to make sure that you've chosen the right examples and described them accurately, fact-checkers take a close look at your work to find errors.

In other words, the simple absence of some piece of information from an article does not mean the reporter is misrepresenting the subject. Luskin would like us to believe otherwise. What's more, he claims that the "extra" information missing from my article brings evolution into question. It does not.

Case 1: Embryos. On page 115 of the article, there's an illustration of three embryos: a fish, a chicken, and a human. The caption explains that the early embryos of these animals look much the same, but the genes in corresponding parts of the embryo guide development by different paths. It adds that evolution often reshaped organisms by altering the genes that control development.

Luskin responds by showing a picture of embryo development from egg to adult. In the gastrulation stage, vertebrate embryos look more different from one another (some are ball-shaped, for example, and some are flattened). Eventually vertebrate embryos pass through a "phylotypic" stage in which they look a lot like other vertebrate embryos, before taking on their distinctive identities.

"These facts don't so fit neatly with Zimmer's claim that '[e]volution often reshapes organisms by tinkering with the genes that control development,'" Luskin declares, "because the hourglass pattern of development shows that transitions from fishlike development ultimately into other forms of development would require radical restructuring (not 'tinkering') from the earliest stages of development."

This is wrong in many ways. Let me break it down into three parts: the earliest differences in embryos, the phylotype, and the adult form of vertebrates.

As fellow scienceblogger PZ Myers has clearly explained, the differences in the earliest stages are superficial. In many cases, the difference is simply whether an embryos develops as a mass of cells, or a mass of cells sitting atop a yolk. Whatever the differences in how the earliest embryos look, they undergo the same core steps of development, known as gastrulation. And the same genes control that process. In other words, what we see in the earliest stages of vertebrate embryos today are variations on an ancestral theme. Sounds like the standard evolutionary process to me.

As for the phylotypic stage, scientists are still debating why it remains so similar among vertebrates. There may be constraints that prevent natural selection from favoring mutations that push an embryo away from this shape. And once embryos move past the phylotypic stage, they begin to develop distinctive organs. Luskin completely ignores the particular organs that the National Geographic illustration actually illustrates: the limb bud.

In fish, chickens, and humans, tiny swellings of cells along the side of embryos emerge, and the cells express almost identical networks of genes. But over the next few days or weeks, the limb bud develops into very different shapes--a fin, a wing, or a hand. Scientists have charted the genes that switch on in cells in the limb buds as they take different forms. (None of these scientists, it should be pointed out, work at the Discovery Institute.) It turns out that many of the same genes are at work in fins, hands, and wings. The differences emerge thanks to the differences in when and where in the limb bud the genes produce their proteins. This is precisely the sort of evolution scientists are talking about when they refer to tinkering with genes that control development.

Case 2: The bacterial flagellum. Many species of bacteria such as E. coli use spinning tails to swim. These flagella are made up of dozens of proteins that work together. Some behave like a motor, some like a flexible hook, and others like the coiling tail. Still other proteins help build the flagellum, such as a needle that injects proteins into the growing shaft.

I am not surprised that the Discovery Institute would try to attack this example. In my work on my new book on E. coli, I've been exploring the long-running fascination creationists have had with the bacterial flagellum. In 1994 the Creation Research Quarterly dedicated an article to its wonders. "To evolutionists," the article claimed, "the system presents an enigma; to creationists, it offers clear and compelling evidence of purposeful intelligent design." In 2005, the Dover intelligent design case came to be known as the bacterial flagellum trial. But both at the trial, and in peer-reviewed journals, scientists explained why the notion that the flagellum was intelligently designed has no traction in the scientific community.

In Luskin's attack, he misrepresents both my article and the science that it describes. He claims that the only evidence I provide is the needle. Some strains of E. coli and other species of bacteria use a practically identical form of this needle to inject toxins into other cells. Luskin then quotes William Dembski, also of the Discovery Institute, who claims that this needle is just one bit of evidence for the evolution of the flagellum. "What's needed is a complete evolutionary path and not merely a possible oasis along the way," Dembski informs us.

Luskin apparently does not understand the meaning of the word phrase "for example." I chose to describe one structure from of many in the flagellum that can be found in microbes serving other functions. I based this part of the article on a number of papers that identify evolutionary links between proteins in the flagella and in other structures. But it would have been absurd for me to catalog them all. Rather than actually address all of that evidence in scientific papers, Luskin prefers to attack an article in a general-interest magazine for not reading like a scientific paper.

Luskin also would have us believe that the only way to find support for evolution is to provide a mutation-by-mutation account of evolutionary change spanning billions of years. The way science is actually done is quite different. Scientists do not go into a time machine and recreate history step by step. They assemble evidence and judge whether they support a hypothesis or not. If flagella evolved from earlier structures, the discovery of related forms of those structures would come as no surprise. I also explain in the article how flagella themselves provide evidence for ongoing evolution--including even cases in which flagella have been lost, with only the disabled genes for them surviving as molecular vestiges. These are other lines of evidence that support the hypothesis that flagella evolved.

All of these evolutionary links have allowed researchers to begin to put together detailed hypotheses about how bacterial flagella evolved. I describe one of these hypotheses, which was published by Mark J. Pallen and Nicholas J. Matzke in "From The Origin of Species to the origin of bacterial flagella," in October 2006 in Nature Reviews Microbiology. It begins with a simple structure for injecting molecules, and then becomes increasingly elaborate. All of the structures that get combined in the process can be found in living microbes. In some cases, combinations of these structures have also been discovered. And scientists have barely begun to explore the microbial realm, so scientists can test Pallen and Matske's hypothesis in years to come. If you rely solely on Luskin, however, you'd think I sat down and made up a story.

Luskin claims at the beginning of his post that I'm writing about evidence that supports intelligent design, but nowhere in the post do we find out why. Luskin instead tries to poke holes in evolutionary biology, and fails. It's remarkable that he calls for an absurdly detailed reconstruction of history as evidence for evolution, while expecting nothing of the sort from advocates of intelligent design. Apparently the rules are different at the Discovery Institute. There you need only make vague references to a designer, claim some supposed shortfalls of evolution, and you're done. "With its irreducibly complex nature and machinelike properties," Luskin concludes, "perhaps the simplest explanation for the origin of the flagellum is intelligent design." The term "irreducible complexity" is meaningless when it comes to flagella, and relying on a "machinelike" appearance of something is hardly a compelling argument that something was designed rather than evolved. I am reminded of the wise advice of Albert Einstein: Make everything as simple as possible, but not too simple.

(Note: If Luskin gets around to Part Two of his attack, I'll update this post as needed. I suspect, however, that it will be more of the same.)

Update, 11/16: PART DEUX

In his second post, Luskin announces that my article "ironically discussed much evidence which ID-proponents often contend supports intelligent design."

Where exactly is that irony? Imagine my article had been about the formation of the Grand Canyon--about the strata that formed its walls over millions of years, about the discontinuities where the layers of rock were heaved and eroded, only to be covered up again by more layers of rock and then finally cut through by the Colorado River. If Casey Luskin was a Young-Earth creationist, he might have written that the article "ironically" discussed much of the evidence which Young-Earth creationists often contend supports the idea that the Grand Canyon was formed by a worldwide flood a few thousand years ago. Just because they talk about the same evidence doesn't mean that their conclusions are valid. The same goes for intelligent design.

This irrelevance doesn't stop Luskin from going ahead and offering up bits and pieces from the article and claiming them as evidence of design. He rehashes various examples I offered of different groups of species using ancestral sets of genes to carry out different functions. For example, the axis of a developing fly's body is controlled by genes from the same family of genes that control our own.

As I explain in the article, scientists have done a lot of research into how such genes evolved over time. An ancestral set of body-axis genes (called Hox genes), for example, was passed down to different lineages of animals. In each lineage, new copies were made, some old copies were lost, and the genes gradually changed their genetic sequence thanks to mutations that were favored by natural selection. Plenty still needs to be worked out about this evolution, of course, but all the work so far supports the theory that these genes diverged by the same sorts of natural processes we can see today.

For example, natural selection can leave its fingerprints on genes. Some mutations alter proteins, while others have no effect, and when genes take on new adaptations, the protein-altering mutations are unusually common. So if the evolution of body-axis genes was a process of adaptation by natural selection, you'd expect to see the fingerprints on these genes. Some scientists at Yale decided to investigate, and earlier this month, they reported that they'd found the fingerprints. Remarkably, they could even pinpoint the parts of the genes that had undergone strong natural selection: the parts that encode sections of proteins that grab other genes to switch them on. That's exactly where you'd expect to find the fingerprints.

Luskin does not bother to address this scientific research, or any other for that matter. Instead, he suggests that these genes are signs of "common design." Apparently, "designers often re-use parts that work in different designs."

So, on the one hand, we have scientists analyzing 155 different genes using the latest statistical techniques for detecting natural selection, which they followed up with studies on the structure of the evolved proteins themselves. And then on the other hand, we have Luskin saying these genes...well, they just look like they're re-used by a designer.

What is truly ironic is the way intelligent design advocates now try to use shared sets of genes as evidence for "common design." After all, it was not all that long ago that they claimed that a biological structure such as the bacterial flagellum were intelligently designed, and for their evidence they claimed that the flagellum was encoded by a unique set of genes. The only problem was that scientists are getting better and better at finding the relatives of "unique" genes, often doing other functions. Now Luskin and company offer a designer which does anything it (He?) has to do to mimic whatever changes evolutionary biologists document.

In the end, Luskin searches for support for intelligent design in--I kid you not--the article's analogies. In a couple places in my article, I quote scientists likening some evolutionary processes like variations on a theme, or changing elements while remodeling a house. Luskin claims that in both cases, the analogies hint at "intelligent agents."

Before you shout, "Whoa! Dude!", consider another analogy in the article. Sean Carroll likens the development of an embryo to the construction of a building:

"If you walked past a construction site at 6 p.m. every day, you'd say, Wow, it's a miracle--the building is building itself. But if you sat there all day and saw the workers and the tools, you'd understand how it was put together. We can now see the workers and the machinery."

By Luskin's logic, an embryo must be filled with real construction workers--or at least "intelligent agents." But lo and behold, the construction workers are but mere molecules, strings of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, and other elements with no intelligence in our sense of the word. And yet these genes and proteins are quite capable of building an embryo.

I use analogies a lot in my articles, because they help make alien realms of nature more familiar to us. I assume that readers will recognize that embryos are not filled with guys with hardhats. But now there's at least one reader about whom I have some doubts.

We're almost done. Luskin promises one more part. Any guesses where he will go next? Word counts?


Update, 11/18: Part Three:

"Was the Ford Pinto, with all its imperfections revealed in crash tests, not designed?"

This is not from a satire of intelligent design in the Onion. These words actually appear in the final part of the Discovery Institute's lengthy response to my article. I am tempted to just let those words speak for their own absurd selves and end this post right here. But it's worth taking this trip to the very end. Having confused a magazine article for a scientific paper, having searched for evidence of design in figures of speech, Casey Luskin now sets the rules for what anyone can and cannot discuss when it comes to intelligent design. The only problem is, he can't seem to abide by them himself.

For his final target, Luskin chooses my description of the evolution of the eye. In recent years, scientists have unveiled hidden connections between vertebrate and invertebrate eyes. Those clues are helping scientists understand how light-sensitive cells in early animals evolved into the variety of eyes seen today. Luskin skirts quickly past this research, which he calls "reminiscent of common design."

Reminiscent is a strangely unenthusiastic word for an intelligent design advocate to use. You can't tell if he really thinks these ancestral genes are evidence of design, or if they just vaguely remind him of design. In any case, claiming these conserved genes are "common design" is a gross simplification of the full evolutionary process scientists are documenting. Evolutionary biologists do not just identify ancestral genes involved in building structures such as eyes. They also identify how those genes duplicated and diverged in different lineages of animals, how other genes were co-opted later to build new kinds of eyes. Our eyes and fly eyes are both filled with a light-refracting substance called crystallin. But the genes for each kind of crystallin are different, and can be traced to different ancestral genes that played other functions in the body. Luskin does not offer any alternative explanation for this process, nor does he point us to a peer-reviewed scientific paper. He just reminisces.

Luskin perks up, however, at the suggestion that in some respects the vertebrate eye doesn't seem very well designed. As I point out, the retina is delicately attached to the back of the eye and can become detached; its photoreceptors point backwards; and its optic nerve has to create a blind spot in order to exit the eye.

These observations take up the bulk of Luskin's response, which climaxes with him asking--in italics--"Why has National Geographic become a mouthpiece for a view of theology that states that a designer must design things to withstand certain types of physical attacks?"

Theology? How'd we get here?

Well, apparently intelligent design only requires "the detection of specified complexity." If something shows specified complexity, then it must be intelligently designed. "Specified complexity" is a term used by intelligent design advocates for patterns that are so improbable that they could only have been created by design. Supposedly, one can use a mathematical procedure to detect specified complexity. Luskin doesn't actually mention whether anyone has detected specified complexity in the eye. I'm not familiar with anything alone those lines, and a search of databases of scientific papers yields nothing.

And I mean nothing. I searched PubMed, a database of over 33,000 scientific journals maintained by the National Institutes of Health, for the phrase "specified complexity. " I got this response: "Quoted Phrase Not Found." That's because specified complexity has been roundly rejected by the scientific community.

To dare utter a single word about the design beyond specified complexity, Luskin warns, is to speculate about the "moral purpose of the designer." In other words, it's theology. Theology, Webster's informs us, means "the study of God and of God's relation to the world." I made no mention of God in the article. It is, after all, an article about science, ie, the study of the natural world limited to natural explanations. I simply pointed out--as others have before me--that the flaws in the vertebrate eye make it hard hard to envision it as the work of a designer, who--by definition--could design something before building it.

Yet Luskin declares that I have crossed the line by discussing intelligent design beyond specified complexity. There's just one wee problem here. Let me indulge in my own italics: When Luskin himself writes about intelligent design, he also goes beyond specified complexity. Luskin bolsters his case for intelligent design by telling us that designers re-use designs. He tells us that designers make things that fail catastrophically, like the Ford Pinto.

Luskin rattles the rooftops when others break his rule, but breaks it himself. He is not content to simply tell us that the eye has specified complexity. Perhaps that's because he can't. His fellow Discovery Institute colleagues break the rule as well, by discussing the purpose of intelligent design--Michael Behe testified at the Dover trial about the evidence of intelligent design in "the purposeful arrangement of parts." The Discovery Institute sets rules for others that it doesn't have to follow.

Yet after accusing me of theology, Luskin is still not content to leave the eye's flaws alone. After telling us that design flaws don't matter, he immediately turns around and claims that the vertebrate eye is not "inefficient." He quotes an article in a creationist magazine that declares the retina must be upside down in order make contact with a layer of tissue called the retinal pigment epithelium, on which the retina's survival depends.

This is an old creationist line, and recently Ian Musgrave demolished it anew. In brief, the retinal pigment epithelium and other features of the eye compensate for its structural problems. For example, thanks to the vertebrate eye's backwards arrangement, the back of the eye overheats and needs blood vessels to carry away excess heat. Octopus and other cephalopods have their retinas arranged forward, which allows them to do without such extra features. They need less blood flow to cool and feed their eyes, which are very powerful (and blind-spot free).

And that's it. That's the sum total of the Discovery Institute's week-long assault. They claim that the illustrations for my article are misleading, when they're not. They claim that I offer almost no evidence for the evolution of various traits, but ignore much of the evidence that I do present (along with the evidence in scientific papers). They claim that I am pushing theology by discussing the notion of design beyond the discredited concept of specified complexity, when they plow beyond it themselves.

I've spent a lot of time on this rebuttal, in part because I don't want accusations against me to go unchallenged, and in part because it's been interesting to explore the sort of arguments used by intelligent design advocates. We encounter lots of stray pieces of information about various species arrayed to give the impression that evolution has no evidence and that intelligent design has a lot. But nowhere in these attacks do we find any actual interest in the organisms themselves. Why do you and an octopus have eyes that are so different and yet so similar? It's a fascinating question, but one that never appears in Luskin's posts. Design is always the answer, like a brick wall to curious minds.


Comments

#1

Being attacked by Casey and his Designer Overlords is a sign of evolutionary success. You are to be congratulated!
Poor Casey! In a battle of wits, brains and ideas, he comes disarmed to the fight.

Maybe he's spending too much time looking at the Geographic fold-out pictures of Papuan Mating Dance Rituals...

Posted by: J-Dog | November 13, 2006 12:20 PM

#2
Poor Casey! In a battle of wits, brains and ideas, he comes disarmed to the fight.

Not just disarmed, but dismembered.

Luskin, the Black Knight: "Come back here, you coward! I'll bite your legs off!"

Posted by: Bronze Dog | November 13, 2006 12:39 PM

#3

Luskin, the Black Knight: "Come back here, you coward! I'll bite your legs off!"

Heh. Amusing. I did a post that ambled into that very image on Behe/Luskin and their flagellar hijinks a few weeks ago.

No, I wouldn't call it a surprising convergence. This stuff, it pretty much writes itself.

Posted by: AJ Milne | November 13, 2006 12:48 PM

#4

Luskin, who wouldn't resemble an embryonic biologist at any stage of development, is barely a baby attorney.

From this uncredentialed lackwit, we typically get attacks on credentials, rather than attacks on facts. Pitiful either way really, but Carl certainly illustrates why Luskin would be best advised to steer far far from the foaming shoals of facts.

Posted by: Steviepinhead | November 13, 2006 2:03 PM

#5

The DI is located in Oceania (or is it Eurasia?)and Luskin is the Minister of Truth. Ignorance is Strength!

Posted by: Jim Wynne | November 13, 2006 2:04 PM

#6


Luskin has been asked to debate the question: "Is the Discovery Institute a Disseminator of Anti-science Propaganda?".

But he refuses. He is a liar, coward and hypocrite.

I wonder when the Discovery Institute is going to post their attack on Ken Ham's "Creationist Museum"? I mean, if the self-identifying Christians at the Discovery Institute really care about scientific accuracy, you'd think that would be a priority since so many Christians will be getting bad information.

When is the Discovery Institute going to attack Ken Ham and his museum for their inaccurate descriptions of science?

I suggest we keep pressing them on this point until they explain themselves.

Posted by: Mary Kate Olsen | November 13, 2006 2:19 PM

#7

Very nice writing. It's a pity to waste it on such tedious nonsense. At least you have the luxury of debating at some useful level of detail, whenever I "debate" a creationist I have to start with the most basic of facts and slowly build a picture of evolutionary theory. I rarely make it to the end, both of us find it exhausting.

Posted by: bpower | November 13, 2006 2:28 PM

#8

The funniest thing about this is that Luskin doesn't actually know much at all when it comes to actual flagellum facts. I have documented this with macabre fascination in the "flagellum evolution" category of Panda's Thumb posts:

Panda's Thumb -- "flagellum evolution" category
http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/irreducible_complexity/flagellum_evolution/

The best part was when he added together 20 required proteins from the Pallen/Matzke paper with 33 proteins from a 1987 paper and ended up with over 50 flagellum proteins! He didn't realize the naming scheme for flagellum proteins was redone in 1988, so he was double-counting the proteins.

Posted by: Nick Matzke | November 13, 2006 3:40 PM

#9

Responding to the DI crowd is wastefull and tedious but perhaps necessary.

More importantly educating the populace, especially the young is critical. For my vote your National Geographic article reprints should be sent to every High School and College Biology class in the country.

Posted by: MG | November 13, 2006 3:59 PM

#10

I just read an article in the paper about the shuttle program. And, you know, they never even mentioned Kepler's laws? If they'd given *all* the information, the case for geocentrism would become clear.

Posted by: "Q" the Enchanter | November 13, 2006 4:50 PM

#11

Yesterday, Casey Luskin took to the Discovery Institute's "Evolution News and Views" site to post part one of an attack on the article. How many parts do have to look forward to? Luskin doesn't offer a clue.

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but Luskin's last multipart "response" to someone (Barbara Forrest in that case) went on for at least 9 episodes:

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/response_to_barbara_forrests_k_8.html

Luskin announced ahead of time in that instance that he was going to inflict 10 posts on an unsuspecting world, giving the wary an opportunity to escape. But we may not be able to count on that. It may just be that he learned from that mistake.

Luskin is becoming another Lamont Cranston. But he clouds men's minds with blather so dull and contentless that it lowers your IQ merely to be in the same universe with it.

Posted by: John Pieret | November 13, 2006 6:58 PM

#12

NICE! A Shadow reference...

Posted by: MikeQ | November 13, 2006 10:51 PM

#13

I think that Luskin has an odd sort of advantage: since he is completely unqualified to comment on matters biological, we can't accuse him of outright dishonesty because he can just plead ignorance.

Posted by: djlactin | November 14, 2006 1:31 AM

#14

Have you no pity? As a good Christian, Luskin doesn't want to Lie for Jesus. It's just that you tempt him beyond his capacity to resist.

Over and over again, evilutionists drag him from the path of Righteousness and make him fall into Sin.

Posted by: JohnnieCanuck | November 14, 2006 2:03 AM

#15

As a native Chinese, I feel extremely confused why there will be such peoples like Luskin existing in America who pay so huge effort to advocate for an obviously false ideas, and there will be so many who do believe them. And further more - they attack science! What is the benefit behind all these? In China, we also have lots of people believing in God or Buddha, but they do not attack science. If they do the government will arrest them. Therefore science is pretty safe here. I think it is necessary to be so. Please arrest Luskin for attacking evolutionism!

Posted by: Andrew Sun | November 14, 2006 3:25 AM

#16

The irony is lost on Luskin (and every other ID proponent) that evolution is berated for being too convoluted and improbable to produce such structures, but that the implications of their alternative ("the simplest explanation for the origin of the flagellum is intelligent design") are given no critical consideration at all.

Posted by: daen | November 14, 2006 3:48 AM

#17

As a native Chinese, I feel extremely confused why there will be such peoples like Luskin existing in America who pay so huge effort to advocate for an obviously false ideas, and there will be so many who do believe them. And further more - they attack science! What is the benefit behind all these? In China, we also have lots of people believing in God or Buddha, but they do not attack science. If they do the government will arrest them. Therefore science is pretty safe here. I think it is necessary to be so. Please arrest Luskin for attacking evolutionism!

Posted by: Andrew Sun | November 14, 2006 3:54 AM

#18
In China, we also have lots of people believing in God or Buddha, but they do not attack science. If they do the government will arrest them. Therefore science is pretty safe here. I think it is necessary to be so. Please arrest Luskin for attacking evolutionism!
Sorry Andrew, but in the west we have a certain amount of something called "free speech". This is an important part of something we call "democracy". The general idea is that even people you disagree with are free to promote thier beliefs, even the patently false ones. While this has some annoying side-effects (like Luskin), democracy is still considered a fairly good idea.

The price of democracy is that you have to engage a few (sometimes offensive) morons in debate. Unfortunately this point is lost on some european legislators who prefer to put said morons in jail. Which IMHO is a grotesque mistake.

Posted by: C.W | November 14, 2006 7:38 AM

#19

And Luskin is to be taken seriously because, ah...., um..... Sorry, could someone not on the payroll of or affiliated with a creationist organization remind us?
... Force of habit? I dunno....
... For the sake of the lurkers? But they are now all on our side, so can't we just write the articles w/o reference to these ID-shits? If someone is actually confused by the hand-waving they can always just ask, can't they?

Dear Carl,
It's interesting how nicely you have refuted his lies, but the time has come, frankly, not to engage these losers at all, for any reason, in the 2-sides-2-every-story (if the bu--sh--/Xian/ignorance party position is clearly false), brainless "mass media."
Your science walks the walk, while Luskin hasn't yet evolved legs (or eyes, or more than the most reactionary stub of a brain.)

Posted by: goddogtired | November 14, 2006 8:00 AM

#20

I can't help feeling that if only our elementary level science education were better, the ID/Creationism crowd would never get enough public backing to be a nuisance.

Posted by: Jeff Rubinoff | November 14, 2006 11:29 AM

#21

The Devil put those fossils there to deceive us!

That's obviously also explains why the limb buds look so similar. Does he have to spell everything out?!

Posted by: melior | November 14, 2006 12:09 PM

#22

What I want to know is what's up with This article by Luskin's orginisation. He provides an inaccurate understanding of information theory - but, aha! and this is where it gets interesting: All those unattributed quotes that are reasonably accurate? Quote-mined bits of ID arguements which are temporarily accurate.

...Interesting.

Posted by: Adam Cuerden | November 14, 2006 2:01 PM

#23

I listen to Casey on the Discovery Institute podcast (I found it on itunes when I typed in 'Creationism' as the search term - I kid you not). Unfortunately for Casey the first time I hear him I thought his voice sounded startlingly likethat of 'Gopher' from 'The Muppet Show' and I cant get that image out of my head whenever I now hear him talk. That said, I have to admit that he is truly a gifted individual. Unfortunately his gift is not for rational intellectual reasoning but more for inadvertant comedy. The last episode mentioned he has a three part section dedicated to showing how your article provides evidence for intelligent design.
I look forward to seeing if he can better his recent hilarious podcast of the 31st of October when he showed how the intelligent design theory was strengthened by detection of the North Korean nuclear tests.

Posted by: MartinC | November 17, 2006 3:08 AM

#24

"Luskin promises one more part. Any guesses where he will go next? Word counts?"

Pithy!

Posted by: SteveF | November 17, 2006 7:01 AM

#25
As I wrote last year, a single evolutionary biologist produces more papers in peer-reviewed biology journals than the entire staff of the Discovery Institute.

Not if that biologist is PZ Myers.

Posted by: Robert O'Brien | November 17, 2006 1:31 PM

#26

Its funny that when the ideas at stake cannot be logically critized, instead detractors might find some nitpick, off-topic point like criticizing a teaching biologist for not being a research biologist.

Like instead of typing evolutionary biology 'Mitchell Sogin' into Pubmed, and seeing hiw 9 pages and 169 papers.

:Sigh:

Was that a cheap shot? Cause it just felt too easy.

Posted by: Shelley Batts | November 17, 2006 2:27 PM

#27

Ah, I see that one of PZ's trolls has escaped. Pay him no mind.

Luskin seems to be of the delusion that science is based on debate, not evidence. He thinks that selecting (and frequently misconstruing) facts to construct an argument is more important than actually investigating the facts themselves. It's what lawyers do. But last time I checked, lawyers had little to do with (and generally little aptitude for) science. Casey obviously missed his calling... he's a failure as a scientist, but he might have done pretty well if he had taken up law.

Posted by: idlemind | November 17, 2006 2:54 PM

#28
Its funny that when the ideas at stake cannot be logically critized, instead detractors might find some nitpick, off-topic point like criticizing a teaching biologist for not being a research biologist.

As I've said before, those who can do; those who can't blog about it from the backwater that is Morris, Minnesota.

Like instead of typing evolutionary biology 'Mitchell Sogin' into Pubmed, and seeing hiw 9 pages and 169 papers.

That's nice, but I know people who have published more in more intellectually demanding disciplines than biology.

Posted by: Robert O'Brien | November 17, 2006 3:05 PM

#29

Uh, nope. He's a baby lawyer from an undistinguished law school. In and of themselves, those would not be insurmountable hurdles to a hard-working and intelligent young feller. While the legal profession certainly offers the opportunity to "frame" the facts in a different manner than does science, persuasive arguments must still deal with the facts, in one way or another--explaining why they should or should not matter within a given legal or societal context.

But a lawyer who constructs arguments as poorly--and as lazily--and as inattentively to the facts--as does Luskin (not to mention one who exercises such poor judgment in client selection) isn't going anywhere, either as a lawyer or as a scientist wannabe.

Bleh!

Posted by: Steviepinhead | November 17, 2006 3:11 PM

#30

Carl Zimmer wrote:

In Luskin's attack, he misrepresents both my article and the science that it describes. He claims that the only evidence I provide is the needle. Some strains of E. coli and other species of bacteria use a practically identical form of this needle to inject toxins into other cells. Luskin then quotes William Dembski, also of the Discovery Institute, who claims that this needle is just one bit of evidence for the evolution of the flagellum. "What's needed is a complete evolutionary path and not merely a possible oasis along the way," Dembski informs us.
Luskin apparently does not understand the meaning of the word phrase "for example." I chose to describe one structure from of many in the flagellum that can be found in microbes serving other functions. I based this part of the article on a number of papers that identify evolutionary links between proteins in the flagella and in other structures. But it would have been absurd for me to catalog them all. Rather than actually address all of that evidence in scientific papers, Luskin prefers to attack an article in a general-interest magazine for not reading like a scientific paper.

What you are describing here - a paper which is more or less exhaustive in examining all the relevant developments on the bacterial flagella - even if only at the level of an overview - is what is commonly known as a "review." These aren't simply technical articles: in my admittedly limited experience, they are quite large, oftentimes being between twenty and eighty pages in length, and recently they have been citing in the neighborhood of one hundred and fifty to two hundred other far more specialized papers. Somehow I doubt that this is the general sort of article which National Geographic or its subscribers would be that particularly interested in. Would Luskin prefer that National Geographic not have any articles on science at all?

Posted by: Timothy Chase | November 17, 2006 3:45 PM

#31

That's nice, but I know people who have published more in more intellectually demanding disciplines than biology.

Do tell! Who are these well-published creationists?

Funny that biology is apparently not intellectually demanding enough, yet Luskin et al are quick enough to (try to) argue against it. Why does it matter what biologists think if its not real science? Biology not good enough for ya? Try Kandel in Pubmed, in my field. Or perhaps neuroscience is also too 'soft.' Not that he won the Nobel Prize or anything. But I'm sure that pales in comparison to those creationists you have in mind. So I wait with baited breath.

Posted by: Shelley Batts | November 17, 2006 4:05 PM

#32

Shelley:

I did not have any creationists in mind. (Well, I don't actually know their stance on modern evolutionary theory.)

Posted by: Robert O'Brien | November 17, 2006 5:12 PM

#33

As I've said before, those who can do;

So what is it you do? I'd love to know.

Posted by: Oolon Colluphid | November 17, 2006 6:25 PM

#34
So what is it you do? I'd love to know.

I study mathematics and statistics. I have also been known to teach.

Posted by: Robert O'Brien | November 17, 2006 6:33 PM

#35

idlemind: "But last time I checked, lawyers had little to do with (and generally little aptitude for) science."

You must have checked before the attorneys for the plaintiffs did such an effective job understanding and presenting, and the judge such a fine job understanding, evaluating, and writing about, the scientific evidence in Kitzmiller v. Dover.

Posted by: Jud | November 17, 2006 7:50 PM

#36

Since we now know that the "designer" liked to reuse genetic material in its creations, we are forced to conclude that it must have been inordinately fond of viruses!

Posted by: Nic Nicholson | November 17, 2006 8:35 PM

#37
Luskin does not bother to address this scientific research, or any other for that matter. Instead, he suggests that these genes are signs of "common design." Apparently, "designers often re-use parts that work in different designs."

So, anyone know why the designer(s) used the same broken sweet-tasting gene in all the cat species out there? Why not just leave it out if it's not going to work?

Posted by: Bronze Dog | November 17, 2006 9:27 PM

#38

I study mathematics and statistics. I have also been known to teach.

Surely teaching is a vastly inferior discipline to churning out journal papers every two months or less. After all, you don't want to be mistaken for a 'dilettante' like PZ Myers, do you?

Posted by: Oolon Colluphid | November 17, 2006 9:44 PM

#39

Oh, I'm not hatin' attorneys. The ones on the winning side in the Dover case had the sense to consult heavily with real scientists, not religious texts like the Discovery Institute folks. But more importantly, they understood the law and made an effective legal argument that Intelligent Design was just warmed-over Genesis, and thus the Government had no business teaching it.

I don't think, though, that I'd want to settle scientific questions by having two teams of attorneys arguing before a judge.

Posted by: idlemind [TypeKey Profile Page] | November 18, 2006 1:11 AM

#40

Two questions:

1) How can one test the premise that a bacterial flagellum evolved via stochastic/ blind watchmaker-type processes in a population that didn't have one?

2) How can that premise be falsified?

Also ID has not been rejected by the courts. Only one court has rejected a strawman of ID...

Posted by: Joe G | November 18, 2006 10:30 AM

#41

Regarding JoeG's two questions...

Good questions. Interestingly, that is *exactly* what Dembski, Behe et al (including Luskin) claim they can do.

Hmm... Fred Hoyle claimed that the development of life was directed by 'extraterrestrial viruses' that carried the genes for new biological features in their genomes. So, one might filter stardust to see if viral DNA really can be found in space. But overall, I think it would be hard to determine the actual mechanisms by which *ancient*, broadly distributed features might have arisen.

This is one of the reasons why I advocate that ID 'researchers' pick model systems for which definitive experiments or conclusions can be achieved. Why not pick the simplest, most recently emerged IC system for the test case? These would be the ones most likely to retain a good record of what the ancestors had prior to the origin of the new system. The 'signal' is more likely to be detected in such instances. Go for the definitive experiment!

So, why do Behe et al persist in trying to examine the oldest, most difficult to evaluate cases as instances of 'design'? Is it because previously identified 'IC' systems like blood clotting and immune systems seem to have too many precursors for an IDer's comfort?

Posted by: Unsympathetic reader | November 19, 2006 1:59 PM

#42

A warning to anyone new to the creationism/evolution discussion: Don't get sucked into arguing with Joe G. He loiters around Dembski's site UncommonlyDense and is a particularly stupid creationist, like Salvador Cordova-level stupid.

Posted by: steve s | November 20, 2006 3:32 AM

#43
As I've said before, those who can do; those who can't blog about it from the backwater that is Morris, Minnesota.

So an academic only has value if he publishes? I find that attitude extremely obnoxious. A good teacher can do far more good for a field than a mediocre researcher.

And why the hell are you even bringing PZ into this thread to begin with?

Posted by: Davis | November 20, 2006 4:34 AM

#44

Carl, you might want to check that it was "specified complexity" and not "specificed complexity" that you searched for in PubMed, and correct your post accordingly.

Posted by: Tristram Brelstaff | November 20, 2006 4:46 AM

#45

Tristram--Thanks for catching the typo. I did spell specified correctly when I searched on PubMed. I think my spell checker went a bit goofy in the writing of the post. Anyway, search the term for yourself, if you'd care--it's free.

Posted by: Carl Zimmer | November 20, 2006 7:47 AM

#46

idlemind: "I don't think, though, that I'd want to settle scientific questions by having two teams of attorneys arguing before a judge."

One doesn't. But when a scientific question (viz. the relative merits of the 'evolution by mutation and natural selection' hypothesis vs. the 'designed by an intelligent agent' hypothesis) has already been settled in the scientific arena, and someone continues to try to get the losing hypothesis taught in public schools for religious reasons--that issue needs to be settled by the law courts.

Posted by: Scott Simmons | November 20, 2006 8:27 AM

#47

Can the Blogosphere bring down the Discovery Institute?
Stay tuned...

Posted by: beajerry | November 20, 2006 9:51 AM

#48

He tells us that designers make things that fail catastrophically, like the Ford Pinto.

I'm sorry -- did Luskin just compare God to the engineers of the Ford Pinto? Out of everything I've read in this magnificent rebuttal, that is the most hilarious.

Posted by: JavaElemental | November 20, 2006 10:37 AM

#49
Also ID has not been rejected by the courts. Only one court has rejected a strawman of ID...

In that case, one has to wonder why the Discovery Institute, Behe, et al only presented a straw man of their arguments. Wouldn't they have been better off if they told the court about their actual theory?

Posted by: wintermute | November 20, 2006 11:13 AM

#50
He tells us that designers make things that fail catastrophically, like the Ford Pinto.
I'm sorry -- did Luskin just compare God to the engineers of the Ford Pinto? Out of everything I've read in this magnificent rebuttal, that is the most hilarious.

I suppose that would explain a lot.

Posted by: Bronze Dog | November 20, 2006 11:38 AM

#51

Well, I must admit, Casey Luskin has me convinced. God designed the Cephalopod eye, but the design of the human eye, he outsourced to Ford.

Posted by: llewelly | November 20, 2006 12:38 PM

#52

I searched for 'specified complexity' on Web of Science, which is arguably more thorough than PubMed because it also contains physical science, engineering and arts journals which PubMed does not. Who knows, maybe there are groups within the engineering community who have modelled irreducibly complex systems and concluded that they must have been designed (say).

My results? Two whole references!

One was a scathing Nature book review of Dembski's No Free Lunch (Charlesworth, 2002). The other? An article in an engineering journal from 1981, about the design of filters (Kazakov & Malchiov, 1981) and nothing to do with ID at all.

I tried. I really did. :-) Nice work with the rebuttal, btw.


--

Charlesworth B., 2002. "No free lunch: Why specified complexity cannot be purchased without intelligence." NATURE 418 (6894): 129

Kazakov I.E. & Malchiov S.V., 1981. "Approximate design of Pugachev filters of specified complexity." AUTOMATION AND REMOTE CONTROL 42 (12): 1618-1624

Posted by: Despard | November 20, 2006 12:59 PM

#53

There is a great deal to recommend in what you have written here, but at the moment I would like to call attention to the following.

Carl Zimmer wrote:

Now Luskin and company offer a designer which does anything it (He?) has to do to mimic whatever changes evolutionary biologists document.

In essence, what we are dealing with are simply variations on the Omphalos argument. For any given creationist, there are some elements of science which they may accept and others which they will not.

In some cases, they will accept the fact that the world is old, or that some mutations might be beneficial - so long as they involve only "micro-evolution," or they may even be willing to accept common descent. But whatever they choose not to accept they can simply dismiss or explain away with an all-powerful, all-knowing designer who might have created the world five seconds ago and had his own quite possibly unknowable reasons for making it look otherwise. Except of course when they choose to explain things away by means of a designer by analogy with human designers - who, given their limited resources and limited intelligence, will make use of the principles of reuse and common design - and often create faulty designs.

Accept what you want and dismiss the rest is the very essence of their approach to empirical science. I think you summed it up beautifully in your final sentence:

Design is always the answer, like a brick wall to curious minds.

Posted by: Timothy Chase | November 20, 2006 1:25 PM

#54

On 'specified complexity' I like Chu-Carroll�s analysis: �In information-theory terms, complexity is non-compressibility. But according to Dembski, in IT terms, specification is compressibility. Something that possesses �specified complexity� is therefore something which is simultaneously compressible and non-compressible.� ( http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/06/dembski� ) In other words, you can�t observe SC from Dembski�s definitions.

"Salvador Cordova-level stupid"

Oh, *that* stupid.

But the questions are fair. So:

"How can one test the premise that a bacterial flagellum evolved"
By studying the different types (several) and examples of flagella and similar structures like secretion systems, in bacteries and elsewhere, the evolution becomes obvious. As a side note, after 150 years of success of such models, it is a perfectly sensible null hypothesis. Which mean if you aren't interested in details you can assume it was evolved until observations make it impossible. (See the answer to your second point.)

More specifically, here excaptations and homologies explain all but the "Total number of indispensable proteins that are also �unique�: 2" ( http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/09/flagellum_evolu.html , http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journal/v4/n10/full/nrmicro1493.html ).

Even assuming no further homologies are discovered and the two proteins are somehow dependent to work, the evolution of two such subsequent mutations has already been described and verified. ( http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/04/evolution_of_ic.html )

So it is already a slam-dunk. I trust you will explain these facts to all creationists you meet.

"How can that premise be falsified?"
No necessary signs of evolution such as homologies or excaptations had been detected. Too late now.

Posted by: Torbj�rn Larsson | November 20, 2006 2:38 PM

#55

Um. Assuming my previous comment makes it through the spam-filters, on proof-reading it should be "bacterias" and "exaptations". Time for coffee, it seems.

Posted by: Torbjörn Larsson | November 20, 2006 2:42 PM

#56

Whatever the differences in how the earliest embryos look, they undergo the same core steps of development, known as gastrulation. And the same genes control that process. In other words, what we see in the earliest stages of vertebrate embryos today are variations on an ancestral theme. Sounds like the standard evolutionary process to me.

Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny?

It would seem that those with the urge to merge are reduced to something more like "It sort of seems the same or somethin'." these days. Are you reading the standard evolutionary process into embryos or deriving it from them?

It's ironic that although we don't really know what is responsible for the form, self-organization and development of an embryo in the present based on current empirical observations, charlatans generally claim to know what happened millions of years ago and use what they imagine about the past to "explain" every single organ that unfolds in the development of every single mammalian embryo. The pattern of exchanging facts, logic and evidence for one's own "natural" imagination was exemplified by Haeckel to the point that he drew images drawn from little more than his own imagination and expected them to be treated as evidence. That is a typical line of Darwinian thought: "If I can imagine something about this that seems natural to me then my imagination should be treated as evidence. See how my imagination has now overwhelmed my mind? All this evidence is quite overwhelming to me." Etc.

As for the phylotypic stage, scientists are still debating why it remains so similar among vertebrates.

And note that it would be absurd to look through the millions of organisms that exist in Nature searching for any similarity and then treating virtually anything you think you see as evidence for common descent based on what you imagine about the past. Yet that's what you tend to do as far as similarities go, e.g.: For example, the axis of a developing fly's body is controlled by genes from the same family of genes that control our own.

So are we to imagine this as evidence that we are ancestral to the fly or is the fly ancestral to us, or another ancestry? If a small fish at the bottom of the sea has eyes that are identical to a lizard that lives in trees, then what shall we imagin?

For now you don't say what we should imagine:As I explain in the article, scientists have done a lot of research into how such genes evolved over time. An ancestral set of body-axis genes (called Hox genes), for example, was passed down to different lineages of animals. .... Plenty still needs to be worked out about this evolution, of course, but all the work so far supports the theory that these genes diverged by the same sorts of natural processes we can see today.

By all means, let's get back to what we can see and observe empirically instead of going throughout Nature and including virtually any similarity among organisms as evidence of "common descent" without any regard for just how common it is. As far as what can be verified there's an old canard that Darwinists have invoked for over a hundred years as far as hard scientia/knowledge and empirical evidence: "It's just like gravity." I.e. Darwinism and natural selection as a theory fits so tightly to empirical evidence that it is on equal footing with the theory of gravity as far as being a "natural process that we can see today" and subject to empirical verification. Unfortunately that's not the case, which is why you're left with the mists of mysticism cloaked in millions of years instead of hard conceptual statements about populations of organisms that can be encoded in the language of mathematics and verified empirically. I.e. if that old Darwinian canard about gravity were true then you could use mathematics to represent the law of natural selection in order to compute a trajectory of adaptation and evolution in a group of organisms. Before it happens. I only note that because evolutionary biologists generally seem to believe that if physicists were verifying a pet theory* by "predicting" the trajectory of an object by adapting the theory to whatever is observed after it came to rest then they would be practicing a hard form of scientia/knowledge. It's interesting how Darwinists have often argued that their hypotheses are "just like gravity" yet physicists do not often argue that physics is just like Darwinism or the theories of biologists.

*I.e. a theory that has been fused to their professional identity: "All physicists think so, and if you disagree then you're not a real scientist or somethin'."

Posted by: mynym | November 20, 2006 6:35 PM

#57

>So are we to imagine this as evidence that we are ancestral to the fly or is the fly ancestral to us, or another ancestry?

It is hard to know where to begin, but if someone doesn?t answer this rubbish, a victory will be claimed by the writer.

From consistent and clear evidence that is provided by gene sequencing, it is found that particular combinations of DNA, found on a specific fruit fly chromosome, code for proteins that in turn control the formation of the head and parts of the thorax, in order from the head to the end of the body farthest from the head. There are 13 such combinations, called Hox genes. Humans have four parallel sequences of very similar Hox genes as they are more complex organisms. The gene at one end controls development of the head in both flies and humans, and so on down the body. That these genes are essentially identical across a wide range of types of animal has been shown by an experiment where a fruit fly Hox gene was removed and then replaced by part of a mouse Hox gene. The fly developed normally. One conclusion from this and many other experiments is that fruit flies and humans have both developed from a single ancestral organism.

I hope this helps.

Posted by: Ross |