Their Past or Our Future: Anti-Vax and Creationism

Well said sir.

The only way we're ever going to get past all this BS and make a start toward that future is to get some real intelligence back in our government, at the highest level.

On the other hand it does help with overpopulation and culling of, among those who die, some of the less desirable members of our species from the global population.

Let the creationists and mercury militia croak, but shuffle them off somewhere where they won't hurt anyone else. The middle of the Sierra Nevada might do some good.

The fundamentalists can kill each other; the mercury militia can die from painful diseases; the woo-woo people can slowly wither away without actual medical care; the fat appreciation people can eat themselves into a heart attack.

Or, if we simply must not let a single soul die from their stupidity, we scientists need to get a LOT more aggressive!

Katherine said "On the other hand it does help with overpopulation and culling of, among those who die, some of the less desirable members of our species from the global population.
...
The fundamentalists can kill each other; the mercury militia can die from painful diseases; the woo-woo people can slowly wither away without actual medical care; the fat appreciation people can eat themselves into a heart attack."

That is disgusting, because:

1) The MMR has never had thimerosal, so the mercury argument not part of the equation.

2) Too often the victims of the anti-vaxers are not their own children, but children and others with other problems like this:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055533.ece

Now please explain what those two boys do to deserve what happened to them.

Another reminder to Katharine:

Many of the children who came down with measles in San Diego were too young to be vaccinated. They got it while in the same doctor's waiting room with the child who had contracted measles in Switzerland. There is a possibility at least one was there to get his/her first MMR. See:
http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2008/05/measles.php#comment-868914

HCN,

You clearly misread my statement about the mercury militia.

The mercury argument is not part of the equation, but the mercury militia thinks it is. Also, I said 'among those who die' - those two boys did not deserve what happened to them. Read my statements carefully.

Or, if we simply must not let a single soul die from their stupidity, we scientists need to get a LOT more aggressive!

How you say things can sometimes be more important than what you say. Scientists have always had a problem "getting the word out", as it were. We need to go about it properly, which is why some of the blogs, comments, and entries here at ScienceBlogs (IMO, and I'm not necessarily speaking about this one) don't help our cause much. The more we mock, the less likely we're apt to be heard. Just my two cents.

"Get aggressive" seems like a dicey proposition to me. The thing about science is that it's supposed to be, well, *scientific*, and that implies a certain degree of "scientific detachment". When scientists start getting "aggressive" about their agenda, they come dangerously close to falling into the same sort of behavior we find so repugnant in the fundamentalists, the creationists, the anti-vax lobby.

I would rather Ben Stein's ilk get away with saying that scientists are closed-minded and unwilling to consider alternate theories and disrespectful of the beliefs of others than for them to *not* get away with saying it, but be *right*.

Katherine said "On the other hand it does help with overpopulation and culling of, among those who die, some of the less desirable members of our species from the global population."

And this is to be interpreted how?

I did read your comments. You neglected the fact that those who fail to vaccinate with the MMR and get measles can spread it to others.

You tried to cover with "Let the creationists and mercury militia croak, but shuffle them off somewhere where they won't hurt anyone else. The middle of the Sierra Nevada might do some good."

Unfortunately, this is not practical in reality.

Ending with "Or, if we simply must not let a single soul die from their stupidity, we scientists need to get a LOT more aggressive!"

Try not writing stuff that can be misinterpreted. Plus you will not convince the most ardent anti-vaxers, you have to present the information to those who are on the fence.

One thing to remind folks that the MMR has never contained thimerosal, has been used in the USA since 1971 and only became a problem when a lawyer paid a doctor (who was not qualified to work with children) to come up with "research" to support a lawsuit:
http://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-summary.htm

What do all these anti-VAX people have against DEC computers?

As much as I like it when ScienceBloggers gets all uppity in defense of scientific rationality against the marauding forces of idiocy, it's worth recognizing that 'aggression' is not a necessary component of science nor science education, it is a rhetorical tool. It is a rhetorical tool that should be judged on its own merits and I think for the most part it fails. We should aggressively defend public policy and education that is based on good science, but a stance of aggression in general is simply not appropriate.

Consider how aggressive the forces of biomedical science appear in most people lives: overmedicalization, competing health claims, drug advertisements, tremendous waste in healthcare spending, etc. You simply cannot underestimate how willing many people are to lump all of this under the heading 'science' and bring along vaccinations. It is rational for parents to be skeptical of a biomedical juggernaut when considering their childrens' health. In almost all cases, it is irrational to not vaccinate. As a community, scientists and allies need to figure out how to separate those two positions and aggressive rhetoric will be counter-productive.

And don't you dare take away my Sierra Nevada and give it to the woo-mongers.

In the event of sudden troll manifestation such as is likely to occur on any blog that dares to suggest that Jenny McCarthy's poo might stink, I highly recommend that those people reading this blog on anything other than Firefox immediately go to the Firefox site and download it tout de suite. Once you do that, go to the Greasemonkey site and download Greasemonkey. Once you've done that, go to http://userscripts.org/scripts/review/4107 and get the killfile userscript for Greasemonkey. Whenever you see a post by a troll, you can click on the "hide" or "kill" options next to the troll's name. Et la voila! You'll never see the troll's comments again, from that point forward.

Katherine forgive me for putting words in your mouth, but I think HCN may have missed the fact that your tongue was most firmly planted in your cheek when you made your original comment.

I too would like to let all the nutter's like the Anti-Vax liars go live out bush somewhere, where they can quietly die without infecting innocents, but I think we all realise it's not realistic.

I apologize if Katherine was saying it in jest... but it is hard to not take it seriously when there is news like this:
http://www.fox11az.com/news/topstories/stories/KMSB_20080507_jh_measles…

"The three latest cases are in infants ranging in age from 9 months to 16 months."

Also, if you go to Orac's blog you can see the type of loonies that many of us have been dealing with for several years:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/05/the_mercury_militia_isnt_goin…

(Common Sue claims that vaccines caused one of her child's diabetes and another Crohn's disease. She has been a Generation Rescue Angel, and a generally unpleasant person)

blogger account into wordpress platform including SEO points hopefully

geciktirici sprey