The Evil Monkey has a Ph.D. in Neuroscience and is currently enjoying a bit of time off while waiting to hear about a new position. Come join this wayward neuroscientist as he struggles to find a career and get his life back in order. He is still not sure why he wrote this paragraph in the third person.
Recently Orac took apart the findings of another acupuncture study. Those who administer acupuncture typically insinuate that a mysterious vital energy known as "chi" travels along meridians in the body, and that normal flow of chi is necessary for good health. Orac pointed out that this recent study effectively disproved the notion of meridians in traditional Chinese medicine.
Similar woo also permeates the martial arts. If one's chi is properly aligned, supposedly the practitioner can make their body do amazing things such as selectively exploding an opponent's internal organs when struck, or sometimes inducing a time-delayed killing sickness. My old kung fu instructor even tried to demonstrate that chi existed by having us hold our hands right up next to a mirror after a workout, supposedly when our chi is flowing maximally. He claimed you could see the visible effects of chi which manifested as a mist traveling up the mirror away from our hands. He was right: the mirror did fog over. I imagine it had more to do with the mirror being at a significantly lower temperature than our hands, which were sweaty and radiating heat, which caused condensation to appear on the mirror and radiate upward away from our hands with our body heat. Oh well.
So in the Philippines, which is home to one of the arts I currently train in, they don't necessarily believe in the Chinese concept of Chi but they do subscribe to just as much martial woo. From oración to anting anting, by aligning one's energy and going through ritualized moves, objects, chants, and breathing, one can prepare his or her mind and body to ward off blows. From swords. It works. Right.
Incidentally, if you don't like blood, don't watch. However, you'll also get a brief dose of Filipino martial history and one of its main figures, Lapu Lapu.
I think we can consider Chi and the like one more debunked philosophical construct. Just because you believe something, that doesn't make it so. Any nice sharp sword will demonstrate that concept. Interestingly, Tara at Aetiology finds that HIV denialists have the same mentality. Hopefully they'll learn a thing or two from this video; HIV can be every bit as dangerous.
Comments
ROFLMAO!
What a maroon! He should've tried his jugular or carotids. Then, he would've won a Darwin award. Instead, he's just stupid.
Posted by: Jeb, FCD | October 1, 2007 7:25 PM
Ancient traditions, ancient cop-outs. "It worked when you weren't looking"... Riiiight....
Posted by: Troy | October 1, 2007 9:04 PM
YOU caused him to cut his arm. by taping this and putting it up on the logical internet, you've collapsed his wave functions in ways consistent with what _we_ call reality, rather than his version (where he doesn't get hurt). YOU'RE ALL TO BLAME FOR WATCHING!!
Posted by: mind | October 1, 2007 9:57 PM
Here's a similar video, without (as much) blood. A "Kiai Master" who can beat the pea-waddin' out of his students without touching them takes on a mixed martial-arts fighter, with a $5000 bet on the line. The MMA fighter hasn't drunk the dojo Kool-Aid.
The old man's reaction when he sees his own blood is priceless.
Posted by: Pieter B | October 1, 2007 11:29 PM
mind, very interesting comment, perhaps we indeed changed the outcome by observing it. i like to think of chi as energy, and i do believe that some people are more in touch with their power to manipulate this energy. also, heat = energy, so the heat coming off his hands is really energy, or excess chi....
Posted by: riboflavin | October 1, 2007 11:30 PM
A guy stabs himself with a sword, therefore Chi is false. Can't argue with that logic.
Posted by: Kurt | October 2, 2007 12:02 AM
Love it. I do a version of Silat (Silat Bela Diri), an Indo-Malay martial art. The breathing exercises and rhythmic forms are purely for mental focus and physical conditioning. No woo involved (although I'm sure that it was traditionally). I can take a sizable blunt impact if necessary, but get out of the way of the sharp stuff quick smart.
Posted by: KiwiInOz | October 2, 2007 12:26 AM
But what kind of energy? I've had practitioners of traditional Chinese medicine and martial arts tell me so many different things. Chi is breath. Chi is "vital energy", whatever the hell that is. Chi is electrical energy. Chi is the energy sum of your nerve impulses and your blood flow.
There are many different types of energy in the sciences, but when it comes to Chi nobody gives me a consistent definition of which energy we're referring to, or how to measure it.
So now heat (thermal energy) is synonymous with Chi? I'll add that to the growing list.
Posted by: Evil Monkey | October 2, 2007 12:37 AM
Hey, he's the one arguing he can manipulate his energy to stop the sword in the first place. They set 'em up, then knock 'em down for us.
Posted by: Evil Monkey | October 2, 2007 12:39 AM
Hey KiwiInOz, that's fantastic. I am schooled in Inosanto's blend of Kali/Silat, so I get a smattering of multiple styles. I love Silat's throws and takedowns, they're some of the most amazing uses of human anatomy I've ever seen.
Posted by: Evil Monkey | October 2, 2007 12:40 AM
Hi Evil Monkey. SBD is a pragmatic evolution of Silat Perisai Diri, and incorporates multiple styles too. I'm still at the "grasshopper" stage as far as proficiency goes, but love the deceptive grace of the movements and sheer speed and effectiveness of the style. The sweeps are just poetry when done properly.
Posted by: KiwiInOz | October 2, 2007 1:46 AM
I believe that he may have successfully performed this same kind of stunt before. I've seen other documentaries such as ones on Shaolin Kung Fu where similar feats are performed. This includes breaking a spear with your neck, being repeatedly kicked in the groin taking the pain, and supporting the weight of your entire body on 1 or a few fingertips.
Posted by: Moses Cahyn | October 2, 2007 3:10 AM
Chi being heat makes perfect sense now I've opened my mind to the possibilities. Thats the only logical explanation for why you can have a good feeling after, for example, drinking a nice cup of tea, eating a cooked meal or sitting in a jacuzzi, think of all the mystic energy you take in!
That'd also explain why those cans of coffee were so expensive, the ones which which heated themselves up (badly) when the button on the bottom as pressed. They had spontaneous life energy generators in them! Not sure what happened to them, I've not seen them in the shops for a good few years now.
;)
Posted by: Andrew | October 2, 2007 5:39 AM
what a dumbshit
he discounts the ancient, proven science of "chi" and resort to, in typical Filipino fashion, to jungle witchcraft.
and that's what happens.
Yeah he should have tried something like this http://www.shaolinsecrets.com/images/DSCN1172sm.jpg
Posted by: matelot | October 2, 2007 10:05 AM
The crucial aspect of such stunts is the use of proper technique. One cannot overemphasize that. This particular guy was obviously using wrong technique and ended up nearly severing his arm.
Take a look at this video, which is aptly titled "The art of the Deceiver"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nDflabGkdTU
Like Leung Ting mentions towards the end of the video, one can perform seemingly superhuman stunts by careful training and practice. If one is not careful, the results could be disastrous. There is nothing supernatural about these things.
Posted by: Sundeep | October 2, 2007 11:36 AM
Dude, you made it to reddit!
There was an old carnival trick about walking on swords - the rationale being that, if you step on them at 90 degrees, they won';t cut you; that they woudl only if you slice with them.
Again, carnival trick, so it may have been done with somewhat dull swords. And somebody failed to inform the poor hapless abstard about these tricks.
Have you seen me levitate away from the ledge of a building?
Posted by: Camilo | October 2, 2007 11:42 AM
Yeah, a lot of this stuff is junk but at the same time a lot of this stuff is not junk. The groin-kicking thing (which is shocking to watch) was featured in an episode of a show called "Human Weapon" where a pair of US meat machines (a MMA fighter and a football player-slash-student of martial arts) travel the world looking for martial arts and then they challenge top people to a fight. They've done pretty well in those, but i wouldn't say they have a winning record...
I know "History Channel brings its guns to bear on martial arts" sounds like a recipe for disaster, but the show is quite good.
Posted by: Winter | October 2, 2007 12:11 PM
His Chi was not strong.
Posted by: zack | October 2, 2007 12:47 PM
I'd say his common sense was lacking, more like it.
Posted by: Evil Monkey | October 2, 2007 2:09 PM
The crucial aspect of such stunts is the use of proper technique.
I'd agree with that. My kung fu teacher can do some pretty amazing things, but he'd be the last person to ascribe them to anything woo-ish. It's just, you know, close to 50 years of consistent practice means you'll be pretty damn good.
I've walked on hot coals, for that matter. There's nothing supernatural about it, even though it seems pretty astounding when you're doing it.
Posted by: G. Williams | October 2, 2007 2:10 PM
Chi, of course, is derived from a nonsensical pneumatic theory of physiology. However, there are occasions where chi does "work."
A classic example is the "unbendable arm" of aikido and tai chi. In this demonstration, the student is told first (the control) to be strong, and resist the efforts of another person trying to forcibly bend his arm at the elbow. An equally strong person, using both hands, can overpower the student rather easily, although the student feels that he is exerting all his might.
Then he is told to relax his arm, and visualize the flow of chi through the arm. This time, he is able to easily keep his arm straight, with almost no sensation of effort, while the person trying to bend his arm is straining.
Palpating the muscles explains how it really works. In the first case, the student's triceps is tight even before force is applied--but so the biceps, the muscle that bends the arm. His sensation of great effort is actually due to the fact that he is fighting himself. You only need to help out the biceps a little bit to bend the arm.
In the "chi" case, both muscles are initially flaccid. Only the triceps tenses, and only in proportion to the force applied to the arm. Small wonder that it is much easier, and less tiring, to hold the arm straight.
And while the chi visualization works very well to learn this technique, once you know what it "feels like," you can do it at will without thinking about chi. Indeed, one does not even need to employ chi even the first tiime--I've seen it done simply by engaging the student in conversation while somebody is trying to bend his arm. All the chi visualization really does is distract him, so that he does not try to consciously override his body's automatic control of his muscles. His brain knows that he only needs to use the triceps to keep his arm straight, but his conscious mind does not.
Nevertheless, I find that chi visualization is still an extremely effective way to learn this technique. I find this a useful point to remember--the fact that the theory is nonsense does not necessarily mean that the phenomenon is not real.
Posted by: trrll | October 2, 2007 6:29 PM
Here's another video of a martial woo-meister meeting up with the real world:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa1nzD-n25Q&mode=related&search=
Posted by: IAMB | October 2, 2007 7:24 PM
so, in other words (or in your words), chi has to function exactly in the same way, all the time, for everyone... or it's proven false? interesting. do practitioners of martial arts claim that chi is part of a science or a philosophy?
your video and subsequent conclusions actually go more towards proving your own short-sightedness.
Posted by: whammo | October 3, 2007 10:41 AM
Typically, if a phenomenon doesn't have any consistent, predictable properties (outside the quantum world anyway), it doesn't exist and it's time to revise our model. Chi proponents, elan vitale supporters, pneuma pimps, they're all unwilling to do such.
Many practitioners of martial arts claim that chi is a real phenomenon. That's about as much agreement as they can muster. Many say it is scientifically validated. Some of them wish to relegate it to "only" philosophy, a working definition of sorts, albeit an admittedly incorrect one.
Posted by: Evil Monkey | October 3, 2007 5:56 PM
Well, in my view, this video cannot proof or disprove anything. Fact is, that traditional martial arts exist for a very long time,so one wonders why those traditions have survived if they where ineffective at all, or the proponents would have seriously wounded or killed themselves all the time. The only thing i can honestly say, from a scientific point of view,is that such phenomena cannot be explained with contemporary theories and methods. But that doesnt rule out the possibility that this could change in the future. It may well be all rubbish, but i think its a mistake to *believe* that only because something cannot be explained by contemporary scientific wisdom, it cannot possibly exist.
Posted by: Orlando | October 4, 2007 5:39 AM
Hi Evil Monkey. I nipped over from Aetiology to see this. And, er, I can't make myself watch beyond about 3 minutes in, which is strange; I didn't think I had a particular aversion to the sight of blood! Or maybe not so strange, as I was quite concerned he was going to amputate his own left hand.
Orlando,
I agree, and I suspect most SBers would too, the essential qualifier being "comtemporary". Some of us might go further and concede that some phenomena may in principle inexplicable, as a result of some limitation imposed either by our cognition or by the fundamental physical laws on our power to investigate.
However any phenomenon that manifests itself in the natural world must in principle be detectable. If chi exists, you would expect it to reveal its effects in studies of human physiology and psychology through irreconcilable problems with the data, which could then be explored in greater depth. This is after all how many phenomena are discovered. But I cannot find any evidence that chi does in fact explode your opponent's organs on impact any more effectively than a robotic arm programmed with the same movements and possessing the same momentum (or Chuck Norris), or that it enables you to absorb blows any better than can explained by anticipation, mental focus, physical balance, and selective muscle relaxation and tension. I may, of course, be poorly informed...
Posted by: Peter Barber | October 4, 2007 7:47 AM
I was thinking about the history of chi. As trrill pointed out, chi is a useful concept in order to teach muscle relaxation. The brain doesn't think the way science does, and if thinking about chi is the best way to train a body to flow, then chi is a useful concept.
Also "recognized" chi powers might help convince students, and maybe even fellow chi-believers, and let the chi master conquer all opponents merely through the power of suggestion. I certainly wouldn't under rate that -- and it seems to happen in the present day as well.
But I can't help but think that soldiers and warriors and people who actually had to fight and wear armor and get cut bashed and killed had a healthy respect for the limits of chi. Or maybe, since everyone had trained their chi so well, they theorized that their chi-advantage was negated, and so they went back to focussing on things like actually learning to fight, and save their chi magic for killing peasants or whatever.
Posted by: inkadu | October 6, 2007 10:35 AM
Also, what differentiates Western practice from "alternative" and "traditional" therapies, is a curiosity about starting premises.
Accupressure might work, because people built and justified the system on a few points that did make sense. The shoulders are a tense point -- that must be an important chi point. Sometimes rubbing the stomach helps digestion -- must be some meridians running through there! From these effective treatments, they cobbled together a comprehensive system. And, by thinking about this system, they make assumptions and claims that are, more often than not, going to be completely wrong.
Does any alternative therapy ever question its starting premise? No. Chiropractic sure hasn't. Homeopathy hasn't. Yes, they can point to studies that show X treatment to be effective for Y, but that doesn't mean their foundational theory is in any way valid.
People used to think that fermentation was caused by decay. It was common knowledge. ANd how could you prove it? Leave some grapes out, they decay, and presto! Fermentation. What would tiny micro-organisms have to do with that? That's ridiculous! It's clearly decay. I mean, the evidence is right there. The problem is that watching grapes ferment is not a test of foundational principles.
Fortunately, yeast can be destroyed, so it's an easily falsifiable claim. Boil some grapes, killing the yeast, and seal 'em up. See if it ferments.
There are plenty of ways to invalidate the chi theory, and I think it's been thoroughly discredited by now. If any chi believers would like to make a claim about chi, we can see if
a) there's an alternative explanation
and
b) if there's an agreeable way to test (falsify) the chi claim.
If you can't falsify it, it doesn't bloody well exist.
Posted by: inkadu | October 6, 2007 10:45 AM
Just because there are charlatans in a particular field, doesn't mean the whole field is discredited. This is an interesting experiment, although it can't be scientifically explained. http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html
A yoga master raises his body temp through meditation.
Posted by: crackpot | October 6, 2007 12:24 PM
I went to an acupuncturist and we got into an argument after I pressed him to explain the meaning behind the metaphors that he kept using -- "chi", "energy", "flow", "balance", etc. I had always just assumed they were aesthetically pleasing metaphors (western doctors use metaphors too, for example war metaphors to describe the immune system). But eventually my acupuncturist admitted they're unprovable metaphysical phenomena of some kind, which one has to have faith in for acupuncture treatment to work.
The treatment was relaxing, while it lasted, but what I really needed was a good old fashioned M.R.I.
Posted by: John T | October 6, 2007 12:32 PM
Any fool can raise his body temperature by imagination. For example, simply think of your pet peeve. :-)
"Can't be scientifically explained"? I gather you're trying to say that you haven't tried to explain it scientifically.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | October 6, 2007 5:31 PM
Ah well. Of course I believe him that he's done it a dozen times and this is "the first time it happened". The big question is whether he'll do it a dozen more.
Posted by: arcanum | October 6, 2007 7:25 PM
Fact is, that traditional martial arts exist for a very long time,so one wonders why those traditions have survived if they where ineffective at all, or the proponents would have seriously wounded or killed themselves all the time.
Whether martial arts work or not (define "work", please) is a separate question from whether chi exists. I have known, sparred with, and taken lessons from some very good martial artists, all of whom acknowledge that they're only as good as their last fight. None of them subscribe to the concept of chi as anything other than a potentially useful idea as per trrll's description, and some of them don't even go that far, thinking that it's a dangerous idea to ascribe a learned skill to an unproven concept.
Posted by: G. Williams | October 6, 2007 8:31 PM
Has anyone spent much time considering the advantage of developing these theatrical displays of ability? The more miraculous the powers of the master, the less they'll actually have to fight - they'll win by default on reputation alone. Once the techniques become demonstration techniques to frighten enemies, then the obvious temptation is to use illusion and deception to make them even more impressive. It's 'art of war' 101.
What I find most interesting in these cases is the strength of the placebo/nocebo effect on students of these guys who **really believe**. They fall over at the slightest brush, it affects their heart rate, and they totally believe the masters powers. The master then starts to really believe in a positive feedback loop, in a similar way to cold-reading psychics who end up believing their own woo, because their techniques seem so successful.
Posted by: reg_spyder | October 6, 2007 10:28 PM
Posted by: Viscount | October 7, 2007 1:38 AM
Quibble with EM: Typically, if a phenomenon doesn't have any consistent, predictable properties (outside the quantum world anyway)
Quantum effects are remarkably consistent, and even predictible. They just don't match up with our (macroscopic) intuitions about causality and determinism.
There's a big difference between saying "I don't know what this result will be", vs. "under these conditions, nobody can know what this result will be". Ordinary randomness usually is covered by the former, while quantum indeterminacy falls under the latter.
Posted by: David Harmon | October 7, 2007 10:05 AM
Typically, if a phenomenon doesn't have any consistent, predictable properties (outside the quantum world anyway), it doesn't exist and it's time to revise our model.
That's still true in the quantum world, except that there the properties are statistical. Analysis of statistical predictions requires a heck of a lot of extra conceptual machinery, otherwise you wind up proving homeopathy.
In the case of the video you showed, the guy made a purely deterministic claim (that this ritual would work every single time), so statistical analysis would be unnecessary. And also rather painful.
Posted by: Corkscrew | October 7, 2007 10:58 AM
i think i can make a prediction here: these concepts of supernatural forces at work in the martial arts ought to be inversely correlated with the particular art form's propensity for injury, in a sense.
what i mean is, we ought to see much more of it in the "empty hand" forms such as karate derivatives than we would in the forms involving edged weapons; this Filipino gentleman ought to be in a minority. (the placebo and nocebo effects will not work on his shortsword, after all!) and we ought to see next to none of it in modern practical pistol shooting.
in fact, i wonder if there's any way to quantitatively measure woo in order to rank martial arts forms according to susceptibility. the results might prove interesting.
Posted by: Nomen Nescio | October 7, 2007 1:30 PM
It is well known that most of the oriental stuff have their principles wrong, but hey many a time they do work.
Ayurveda for instance, I personally know of cases where ayurveda and acupuncture has worked and even extreme stuff like healing. And homeopathy was better at curing my two year old daughter of asthma than allopathy ever was. Dont any guy get on to placebos?
Ever tried placebos on an infant or an animal? homeopathy is used in both cases and many a time succesfully. And why wouldnt a tablet of paracetamol that the kid takes does not work as a placebo while a concoction of homeo medicine does. We are deeply mired in placebo shit.
OK agreed that western science has done a good job by pointing out the exact mechanisms of action for many medicines, but a sick man is not waiting for education, but a cure, any damn cure, many a time.
Notice that formerly discredited stuff like ayurveda are gaining scientific assent, with better tools and equipment, till now earlier scientists reasoned but they had not the tools to know it and therefore came to the conclusion that these are trash sciences or disciplines. A case in point is Rauwolfia, Neem, leeching, all finding favor after being in the wilderness.
When we go on to the yogic and martial arts, we see the same scenario, sciences that work well, but wrapped up in old mumbo jumbo. This doesnt mean that these science were wrong but that they provided explanations consistent with the level of expertise then, we are talking 1000-2000 years ago.
It is a good question as to why these people do not change their principles. It is not that it has been tried, but these solutions seem to be based on a mix akin to a golden ratio and changing them does not seem to be as efficacious as the old standard ones.
So somewhere things are wrong either in the understanding of the people who have tried to change these things or that these principles are interconnected to other things that are not understood well at this moment in scientific language.
Science is an admission of the limits of our ignorance, we keep moving away the limits with each scientific success. That does not mean that science can be used to look at anything.
Scientists looked at snakes for long and concluded that they respond to movement by listening to vibration, their eyesight being poor. Till we discovered that they have infra red vision, at least many of them. So what happened to the prior claims? It is stupid to be rational when the tools of rationality are too few and the domains are too large.
Many people must have met with antenna noise and what happens when some one finds that it is connected to the big bang. Tell that to any rational man of the earlier century, say bacon or owen and they would smirk.
Anyway as we move away from traditional domains like the physical environment, into quantum theories and gravity, science looks almost indistinguishable from magic.
Imagine that your length changes as your speed varies while you hover somewhere close to the speed of light. Tell that to Newton and he would probably growl and at least think about it in a new fashion.
The problem as Whip Hoxworth says in the Michener novel Hawaii is that you can get Yale students to solve any problem as long as another intelligent man points out the right problem and perhaps also the right way to look at it.
Guys who write these blogs are educated to reason but not to wonder. Western science if it has got anywhere has got there by wondering, wonder what will happen without friction and you have inertia, wonder what will happen when you travel at light speed and you have relativity. That was Galilieo and Einstein. Want more quotes?
The other guys I mean primarily those who write these blogs, educated, seeming thinkers, look bright, seem to think, but mostly they are rehashing known ideas.
They will also look at every thing from these known ideas and are as susceptible to errors as famous scientists. like the one who rubbished black holes or kelvin who rubbished the idea that the earth is really old. Continental drift anyone?
Let not science lend itself to dogma. It is ok to say that we did not find anything spectacular or in line with what is thought, but to say that such a thing is not possible at all is plain stupidity of the highest sort.
You are all trained, correct, but not trained to be like dogs to masters, but trained to reason. But observation should precede reason otherwise you will end up like Lamarck.
Let us not judge eastern disciplines without the right tools to check them. They have not only been here long, but have frequently been found to be too damn subtle that it has taken years for western science to find them.
The guys who started off chi and similar stuff, also invented zero, that should get you thinking. they were not duds.
let us wait before we pass judgement. To really understand these things one needs a different mind set, which could be critical but also considerate.
Look at Nick Humpreys account of the monkey displaying a visual acuity which would not be displayed in a lab atmosphere in a controlled setting. We should understand that science is young and the world is old. let us rejoice in science's successes but moderately.
Posted by: udaya | October 9, 2007 5:06 PM
"Ever tried placebos on an infant or an animal? homeopathy is used in both cases and many a time succesfully. And why wouldnt a tablet of paracetamol that the kid takes does not work as a placebo while a concoction of homeo medicine does. We are deeply mired in placebo shit."
Homeopathy working on infants and animals "many a time?" Where is the documentation? Where are the double blind studies? Controlling for all the biases of the observer? You are aware that Randi will pay you $1,000,000 to prove such claims, aren't you?
Paracetamol can and has been compared to a sugar pill, with significantly differing efficacies. There would be no difference between a group taking homeopathic "medicine" and a sugar pill.
Posted by: Jon | October 19, 2007 6:34 AM
"It's stupid to be rational..."
I think that is the most idiotic claim on this comment page.
I don't mean to pick on you, Udaya, I get the general drift of your post. There is no such thing as certainty, and one should never abandon an open mind, or one's curiosity.
However, defending people's belief in this idiotic garbage as rational open-mindedness is absurd. It is the opposite.
It is amusing that most of the examples thrown up by the Defenders of the Woo here as being "not scientifically explainable" are, in fact, scientifically explainable. For example, it is true that with practice, martial arts "masters" (or anyone else) can manipulate their emotional state, often without any outward indication. Despite the fact that observers may not perceive this by means of conventional indicators that we all use to communicate, such as facial expressions, it can and does have a real, measurable effect on brain/body chemistry, which can manifest in measurable physical phenomena. Like an actor getting into character, exploiting the body's inherent traits through self-induced emotional states can result in chemical secretions in response, causing measurable phenomena such as increased strength, increased pain threshold, increased or decreased body temp, heart rate, blood pressure etc. etc. etc.
Emotion can be real or contrived, but can still result in a reaction from the autonomic.
Combine this with carefully practiced stage tricks such as balancing on swords (which are explainable with elementary physics) and you get a portfolio of Woo that will be quite effective in duping the gullible (as well as, it seems, sometimes the practitioners).
Woe to the "master" who believes the Woo, eh?
I point out to the rational among us that debunking these ridiculous claims ad nauseum has not been very effective in steering the world into the light, as it were. And why would we presume to do so? I think instead, attention should be turned to the emotional problems that cause people to resist rationality, and hold fast to demonstrably false beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I think this would apply to all religion, Eastern and Western, as well as "alternative" beliefs like quack medicine, spiritualism and psychic mumbo jumbo, alien abduction, and my oh my, does the list go on. What causes people to develop this deep-seated emotional need to believe in Woo? I am sure that individually the reasons are as diverse as human experience can be, but there would seem to be some underlying principle, here. I do not suggest that this principle be explored as a way to enlighten the populace, but only for personal understanding (and possibly further amusement). So here is a new idea for you: let's stop trying to drag these freaks into the 21st century, and instead enjoy a good laugh at their expense while simultaneously undermining their cultural relevance. Logic, and rationality, are indeed "old ideas" and if you are suggesting we abandon these things in favor of whimsy, why, I have to point out that that idea is at least as old, and you , Udaya, are right down here in the re-hashing pit with the rest of us.
Posted by: Scott Graham | October 19, 2007 10:01 AM
And let me just add, in case you complain of me missing your point, that by citing a dozen or two historic theories, recent or in the distant past, that have since been shown to be erroneous, (by scientific means, I emphasize!) you seem to infer that ALL science is baseless, and it is only a matter of time until every scientific theory under the sun is shown to be erroneous.
That is about as Woo an idea as I have ever heard.
Posted by: Scott Graham | October 19, 2007 10:08 AM
I've done an Okinawan form of karate for over twenty years. I think trrll is onto something: there's plenty of conceptual baggage that's there because it helps with visualization or otherwise has the effect of improving the efficacy of training.
During my training, I haven't run into anything that isn't entirely consistent with old-school Newtonian physics. But some of the techniques are hard to learn, and over the long history of the art, teachers have come up with a number of ways to communicate to their students what it feels like to do them right. Much of that description is in the form of metaphor, analogy, poetry, tap-dancing and other imprecise forms of communication.
In my experience, the teachers are mostly hard-headed pragmatists, but they're often pre-scientific in their outlook. I don't think they use concepts like chi to bamboozle anyone-- it's just a remnant of an old world-view. I'm sure there's something there that hucksters have built on, but a lot of these guys just want to get better at their art and teach students. Most I've dealt with aren't even all that clever with money. Their grasp of capitalism is on a par with their understanding of science.
So we should be careful to distinguish woo-as-baggage from woo-as-BS. They have different motivations, different degrees of potential for causing harm, and potentially different cures.
Posted by: Futatorius | October 21, 2007 4:59 PM
As for the woo aspects of your video, I don't have much more to say than if you know the Philippines, you'll also know this is just the tip of the iceberg. Not only do we have anting-anting we have dwende, aswang -- even a judge who until he was dismissed recently claimed he consulted two spirits who could teleport him to several places.
Now as to the Lapu-lapu story you lead the video with, you should know that EVERYTHING we know about Lapu-lapu, and i mean EVERYTHING, comes from only one man, the Italian adventurer Pigafetta who accompanied Magellan in his voyage here in 1521. Pigafetta doesn't give Lapu-lapu more than a few lines, nowhere in his account (you can look up Blair and Robertson for a side by side reprint, Italian on one page, English translation on the other) does he describe how the warrior appeared, how he spoke, much less what style of fighting he personally favored. The bio that has been handed down to our history books is pure conjecture (although fabrication might be a better word). Which doesn't take away from the fact that Lapu-lapu was one tough hombre. He was willing to pit a half-naked horde of natives, armed with wooden shields and native swords, against hardbitten armored Euorpean soldiery equipped with halberds, crossbows and small cannon. When Magellan told him he still had time to surrender, he basically replied, shut up and fight already. Pigafetta devotes a few lines to how the battle went, but nowhere describes any fighting styles of the natives.
Posted by: a robles | October 22, 2007 7:44 AM
Pardon, but I'm a Filipino, and nowhere in our history (at least the one I learned in High School) did it say that Lapu-Lapu did any of these silly rituals.
Lapu-Lapu was known to be a brave warrior, and warriors do get wounded. The thing is, he MUST have been a better warrior (along with his men, of course) than the conquistadores could ever be that he avoided being wounded by the amateurish-by-his-standards Spaniards.
I've dabbled into the martial arts. There is trickery involved in hacking yourself with a blunt blade. And martial artists' "invincibility" all relies on the fact that they have trained to endure pain or avoid it altogether.
Posted by: matanglawin | October 22, 2007 6:38 PM
Hey matanglawin, I didn't mean to necessarily endorse the content of the video clip as historically accurate, I apologize for that. My intent was more to bring a prominent Filipino figure into the consciousness of my readership, with the hope that they'll become interested in doing some more learning.
Posted by: Evil Monkey | October 22, 2007 10:41 PM
I stumbled upon this entry from another site while studying woo-woo-quackery and must admit I was thinking in the same lines of reg_spyder: As there seem to be so many fools who insist upon believing in so much of this clap-trap, why not learn the techniques (Cold reading, etc) and make a nice profit?
Ahhh.... I know why I resist. My damned conscience and self-respect step in the way.
:-)
Thank you for the entertainment!
Aloha,
Jaana
Posted by: Jaana | October 24, 2007 10:48 PM
In reply to Orlando's claim that:
>"Fact is, that traditional martial arts exist for a very long time,so one wonders why those traditions have survived if they where ineffective at all, or the proponents would have seriously wounded or killed themselves all the time."
I wish to draw everyone's attention to the Boxer Rebellion in China, where martial artists told their students that their art would make them invincible. Sadly, the students were, after facing Western black-powder weapons, unable to get their money back, on account of being dead.
I'm a martial artist with approximately twenty years of training in three different arts, and I'm a black belt and assistant instructor of taekwando. One would expect that I would support the "chi" hypothesis.
However, I am _also_ a high school physics teacher, and the fact is that I've broken down each technique into simple physical terms. The reality is that knowledge of the body's movements and the physical principles behind them enables one to generate more power with less training.
As a black belt, I would love to be able to throw fireballs from my hand and tornadoes from my feet, but the reality is that I can't, and I have never met anybody who can and people who claim the existence of qi and their ability to use it in combat get thrown and knocked down by me on a fairly regular basis.
As such, my provisional hypothesis is that qi is, pardon the pun, a load of hot air.
Now, as a Popperian in practice, I would be willing to accept that I am wrong-- just show me _one_ person who can use qi on _me_, and I will bow down and accept him as my master.
The offer has been standing among my relatives for five years now. They keep saying that they will, but somehow it's like Sylvia Browne's acceptance of the James Randi prize-- nobody wants to put their qi where the fist is.
Posted by: XH | October 27, 2007 11:44 PM
Sharp swords cut things?! O_O Why was I never told this in school?! Oh, they found time to tell us condoms don't work, but this?! Egad! Etc! (what a moron)
Posted by: Chris | April 14, 2008 9:55 PM
Having a neuroscience degree, and recently having taken up Qi Gung, I thought that I may have something to add to this debate.
I'm a very sceptical individual and find it difficult to believe any claims about knocking people over without touching them etc... However, that doesn't mean that there is no scientific basis for Qi. In fact, only a little research will show anyone interested, that lots of academic papers have been written on the subject. Like acupuncture, chi is increasingly becoming part of mainstream thinking.
From my own point of view as a practitioner and scientist, I would offer the following points as likely mechanisms for positive effects
1. Breathing excercises increase vital capacity of lungs. In turn this increases surface area for gaseous exchange and makes breathing more efficient.
2. Meditative effects. These affect brain wave function and offer a variety of benefits, including relaxation and release of beta enkephalin (natural endorphin). Enkephalin is a natural opiod and has lots of postive effects on the body including - reduced blood pressure, lower heart rate, pain relief, euphoria. It has also been linked with the release of several anti oxidant enzymes.
3. Neuromuscular benefits. Practising control over breating and posture helps strengthen core muscle groups. Also, as blood oxygen levels are increased, the muscle works very aerobically, helping fat burning. I have noticed an effect on my body over and above what I would have expected by doing the excercise alone.
All in all, being dismissive is not the same as being sceptical! Quite clearly I wont be practising by trying to chop my own arm off, but ther's enough in it to keep me really interested. Also qi scores great in scrabble!
Posted by: Martin | April 21, 2008 7:28 AM
All the things you listed as benefits are common to pretty much all exercise and meditation. I'm not sure what that has to do with made-up energy meridians.
Posted by: Evil Monkey | April 21, 2008 11:50 AM
Its more to do with the way that you exercise during Qi Gung tbh. You are combining the meditative elements with a different way (at least different to anything I've come across and I have studied karate for 4.5yrs and competed to a reasonable level in athletics) of excercising new muscle groups.
I know enough about physiology to understand that the state and conditions under which you excercise, offers differing results.
As for made up meridians, I cant really comment. I havent seen anything to prove or disprove them conclusively. As such I'll take the benefits I can get from my practice with an open mind. That includes not buying in wholesale to anything I can't see or touch (in fact our teacher has stated on a number of occasions that the only way to knock someone over is to hit them - I concur!)
What I would say about the Chinese culture where it originated is that they were no-ones fools. Admittedly their descriptive sytems seem (to us) highly allegorical, they produced some pretty good stuff. Including advanced mathematics, oil and gas rigs 1400 years before the west, gunpowder, complex mechanics, printing (6 or 7 centuries prior to the west, paper currency & economics and spaghetti. I am therefore, not in too much of a hurry to completely discount their entire tradition in medicine and physiology.
Posted by: Martin | April 22, 2008 4:47 AM