Kevin Vranes has a phud in Physical Ocean- ography and Cli- matology. He now studies sci- ence policy and politics at the Every college professor in the US is going to relate to today's story in the Times ("To: Professor@University.edu Subject: Why It's All About Me").
My list is long and includes the obligatory "why didn't I get an A?" or "why did I get a D?" types, but also includes some of these faves:
- Anonymous email accusing me of not supporting the troops because I had the temerity to hold a midterm review session on Veteran's Day
- Anonymous email for not teaching a 101 non-majors class at the cupcake level.
- Many bitchy comments about how the review session was a waste of time because I didn't tell them what was going to be on the test or what the answers were.
- Email from a student about how he was going to miss a class because of a snowstorm. Since he hadn't been to class in weeks and was doing worse than students who had dropped after the first midterm, my response was something like, "Well, since you haven't been to class in the past two weeks, I don't think missing Monday's is going to hurt you too much."
- Bold lies, spread over a 10-email exchange, about switching labs from one TA to another and having done the work in the first lab (which neither he nor TA could produce).
Comments on the Times article:
One student skipped class and then sent the professor an e-mail message asking for copies of her teaching notes. Another did not like her grade, and wrote a petulant message to the professor. Another explained that she was late for a Monday class because she was recovering from drinking too much at a wild weekend party.
Yup, had versions of all three.
Professor Ewick said 10 students in one class e-mailed her drafts of their papers days before they were due, seeking comments. "It's all different levels of presumption," she said. "One is that I'll be able to drop everything and read 250 pages two days before I'm going to get 50 of these."
Yup.
Kathleen E. Jenkins, a sociology professor at the College of William and Mary in Virginia, said she had even received e-mail requests from students who missed class and wanted copies of her teaching notes.
Repeatedly.
Meanwhile, students seem unaware that what they write in e-mail could adversely affect them, Professor Lahav said. She recalled an e-mail message from a student saying that he planned to miss class so he could play with his son. Professor Lahav did not respond.
True for the dumb ones. Most still have some sense of self-preservation and they know what they are in college for.
Students also use e-mail to criticize one another, Professor Ahdieh said. He paraphrased this comment: "You're spending too much time with my moron classmates and you ought to be focusing on those of us who are getting the material."
I got this especially in the context of class discussions. Some students didn't want class discussions because, "they didn't come to college to hear what their dumbass peers think." (And that was from one of my best students.)
Comments
# 1 | Heathcliff | February 21, 2006 11:07 AM
"Kathleen E. Jenkins, a sociology professor at the College of William and Mary in Virginia, said she had even received e-mail requests from students who missed class and wanted copies of her teaching notes."
Umm, let's say I'm very slow. How is this unreasonable? Even the best students sometimes miss a class. I would think that someone who tries to get somebody's notes from a class they have missed is showing more involvement in the class than someone who doesn't bother. And whose notes would be better than the teacher's? And how much of an imposition is it to ask for them? (Assuming the person asking is willing to copy them, and doesn't expect you to.)
# 2 | J-Dog | February 21, 2006 11:17 AM
I am with Heathcliff on this one, AND ALSO agree with the student that brought up " moron clssmates". I seldom missed any classes in school, but if I did, I would ask a classmate; if the notes were still not available, I would ask the professor.
Moron classmates are a genereal pain in the tookus, and many is the time that I would mentally tell them to please shut up! We are talking total timewasters here, that talk for 5 minutes without even asking a F&*&&4## question! PLEASE Spit it out! Oh well. I see I have vented enough! I KNOW professoring is hard. I appreciate any and all that do it, so thanks, BUT can I make one more gripe???
PLEASE!!! If you do not speak English,WELL, do not attempt to teach at an American University!
# 3 | Will | February 21, 2006 11:42 AM
The less powerful one always replies? The professor who said that in the article seems to be on a bit of a power trip.
# 4 | kevin | February 21, 2006 12:03 PM
"And whose notes would be better than the teacher's? And how much of an imposition is it to ask for them?"
For my style of teaching, a big imposition, since I don't lay out my lectures word for word before hand. But more to the point, it's on the student to be a student and take responsibility for the learning. Special circumstances aside, not showing to a class and then asking for a recap from the prof is a big waste of the prof's time. There was a schedule, the prof gave the material according to the schedule, and then the students comes back and asks for special consideration.
"I am with Heathcliff on this one, AND ALSO agree with the student that brought up " moron clssmates"."
Ok, I actually agree about "moron classmates." But the point I was making was on class discussions - that a student didn't want them because of moron classmates saying dumb things during discussions. My rejoinder is that you're in college to learn how to think. Part of that process is figuring out how your peers think, and if their thought process sucks, you figure out why and become better for it.
"PLEASE!!! If you do not speak English,WELL, do not attempt to teach at an American University!"
Not that I agree with this comment, but isn't this the fault of the hiring university, not the job-seeking, trying-to-make-a-living professor?
"The less powerful one always replies? The professor who said that in the article seems to be on a bit of a power trip."
Maybe, but I saw the comment from a sociological standpoint. Students/professors are in a power relationship to a certain extent. The professor realizes this, but maybe the student doesn't always realize this.
# 5 | Karen | February 21, 2006 12:57 PM
I've seen some of my teacher's notes, and I often wonder how they can read their own handwriting. :-) Seriously, one of the things one needs to learn at college is how to build a support network to deal with problems like a missed class. If a student doesn't have a contact list of fellow students she/he needs to build one.
Alas, moron classmates evolve into moron co-workers. Learning to handle them gracefully and not let them get in your way is one of the pesky life skills that successful people learn.
"PLEASE!!! If you do not speak English,WELL, do not attempt to teach at an American University!"
This is a) subjective, and b) another life skill. I had professors from East Asia who were difficult to understand, and rather than making an extra effort, I griped about it along with everyone else. Then I graduated, got into industry, and discovered that many of my co-workers were from East Asia or South Asia and some of them weren't the best English speakers. But they were also often the experts I needed to rely on. So I learned to listen better, ask questions, and keep a dialog going until we understood each other. Wish I'd tried that back in school -- it would have helped my grades a lot.
# 6 | Davis | February 21, 2006 1:09 PM
I have to agree with Kevin on the notes issue. I know my lecture notes have only a passing resemblance to what I actually say in class (this is for math, mind you); they tend to be a rough outline of what I want to cover, written in such a way that I'm probably the only one who understands them. Plus, depending on questions that get asked, time constraints, and whatnot, it's not uncommon to skip certain parts of my lecture notes, change the order of certain bits, or go into more detail on certain ideas. You'll never get that from lecture notes, because they were written before class.
More importantly, if you miss a class, it's *your* responsibility to find out what you missed, not your professor's to get the material to you. Ask one of your fellow students for a copy of the notes (preferably someone on the ball). True, it may be only a small burden for one student to ask for my notes. But it sets a precedent, and the last thing I want is every student who misses a class coming to me for a copy.
# 7 | ChrisS | February 21, 2006 1:36 PM
as to requesting clss notes, it may just be a case of asking for powerpoint slides.
I had one professor that made their slides available online for download/printing for three days before the class and one day afterwards.
# 8 | JayE | February 21, 2006 3:40 PM
I will admit approaching a professor and saying, "You spent too much time going over 'how to apply the power rule'" in a second semester calculus class after three days of mind-numbing questions from a few students that shouldn't have been in the class. Generally in situtations like that I sit quietly and, oh, read ahead in the textbook or work on problems. It's quite possible to use your own time productively even when someone is wasting the class's time.
As far as asking professors for notes? Or to read an entire paper and make comments? That's crazy -- the ratio of one teacher to X students means that anything like that is just manifestly ridiculous.
As far as English/understandibility go, Karen hit it right on the money. There are a lot of people in the world that don't speak perfect English -- get used to it and develop your own techniques for making it work. College isn't just about book learning.
# 9 | Heathcliff | February 21, 2006 3:41 PM
I see, I think. The practical objections make sense, though I had supposed from the way it was phrased that Prof. Jenkins actually did have sharable notes. I am surprised to discover that most requests for this kind of help come from people trying to take unfair advantage, rather than from people in genuine `special circumstances'. It's a good thing I'm not a professor; those kids would roll me like a wino on payday.
# 10 | Cheeto | February 21, 2006 5:02 PM
When I was an undergrad many of the professors would allow a notetaking service to take notes and sell them to the students, some would even provide their own notes to the notetakers. Finding out if a professor would make his (or her) notes available doesn't seem like too much of a hardship for the professor - too busy to write back and say "no"?
I got the impression that the professors who were (and have been on various blogs) complaining about these requests are making mountains out of molehills. You had a student with the snowstorm excuse? Who cares if the student was going to miss class? You as the professor are going to teach the class if the student is there or not - why do you care if that student is there too?
As for "Maybe, but I saw the comment from a sociological standpoint. Students/professors are in a power relationship to a certain extent. The professor realizes this, but maybe the student doesn't always realize this."
I disagree with you - writing thank you's for an e-mail is a waste of time, and forcing someone to do it to prove that you are in a power relationship is exactly what a power trip looks like.
# 11 | kevin | February 21, 2006 6:34 PM
It's not about writing a thank you, it's about understanding the communication dynamic. By becoming a student, what is a student doing? S/he's asking a person who knows more than the student for insight into a subject. (Else, why are you taking the class?) The student/teacher relationship is not a contractor/client relationship. In my experience, most undergrads get that, but many don't.
When I go to a teacher (and I do for a few things), I keep in mind that I'm requesting that this person share their knowledge with me. It's not about power, it's about respect for the knowledge requested and (hopefully) bestowed. Bringing the concept of "power" into it is only a way to illustrate these norms and boundaries.
# 12 | Kristjan Wager | February 22, 2006 7:10 AM
Interesting. To me, this shows a difference between how university is perceived in Denmark and the US.
In Denmark, as a student, you are supposed to do a lot of self-study, and there is absolutely no requirements for class participation in most classes (though there is a growing trend towards this). If you want to just hand in the assignments and read at home, that's fine. You are an adult after all. Class particpation don't guarantee that you pass (though it will probably increase your chances).
It is more important that understanding the subject than particpating in every class. People learn in different ways, and for some people lectures are just about the worst way to learn.
And the professors (and other teachers) encourage students contacting them through mails or forums if there are questions, even if they don't particpate in classes. As long as they have read the material before asking.
That is why the teaching notes or presentation slides often are available on the internet (or can be bought in the University bookstore at cost price).
As an annecdote, I took a math class last year, and quickly found out that the lessons didn't help me much. Instead I met up with a co-student and did math exercises in the evening (I'm working part-time, she has two small children). Quite often the professor would still be at the university, and if we had any problems understanding something, we went and asked him. Not only didn't he mind, he started to make sure that we were fine, before going home - to him, we were much better students than those that just showed up, stayed at the lectures, and did nothing else.
# 13 | Kristjan Wager | February 22, 2006 7:12 AM
Another note on this. Isn't asking for the professor's notes one way of finding out what you missed?
# 14 | Joanna Bryson | February 22, 2006 5:08 PM
I type my notes up and put them on line. I've done this every since I had a blind student who couldn't read the chalk board. They are just outlines and the students in class get more, and probably the notes they take might be more useful to another student than the notes I write for me, an expert in my field. But whatever helps.
I do think it's an obligation of a professor to keep an eye on the time when engaging in debate, whether with a bright student or a not so bright one, and whether in lecture, seminar or conference Q&A. It's just one of those skills a professional communicator should have.
# 15 | Kirsten | February 22, 2006 6:47 PM
It seems to me that professors and students are generally going to see the issue that email has made professors "more approacable but too accessible" from different perspectives. This being said, I am biased because I am a student. However, I think the heart of the matter is that professors should review their job description. It does not say to spoon feed students, but it does say that you are responsible for teaching students. Yes, of course you do research and you have a PhD, but from a student perspective you are a TEACHER! This is not a dirty word! As someone who is getting their teaching certification, I know a little something about this. I think these TEACHERS need to remember that research is not their only purpose at a college. I understand the pressure to publish, but I also understand how frustrating it is to have a prof who doesn't care if his/her students learn or not. With the previous in mind, please follow me through some of the arguments made:
1) email has made profs too accessible and they shouldn't be viewed as available around the clock. Yes, I agree that you are not available 24-7. You have usually at least a few office hours per week...I know profs have things to do, but it's part of your job to be available during those hours and part of that is responding to student emails. Regardless of what you think about the email (too informal, waste of time, etc.), it is your responsibility to respond. That response may be as simple as a "no," and seriously that takes all of 15 seconds. It is up to the student to determine the amount of knowledge they gain in school, but part of that is also making your knowledge available to them.
2)familiarity with profs vs. "legitimacy as an instructor and someone who is institutionally authorized to make demands on them" How many people in academia got where they are today without ever talking to any of their profs for clarification, help, questions, etc? As an aside, I would like to point out that "instructor" is a fancy word for teacher. As a teacher, it SHOULD be the prof's expectation that the students have potential for greatness. All too often profs ACTUAL expectation for their students is low, and therefore they see their students as annoying college kids who won't stop bothering them. The building blocks of learning and universities is the sharing of knowledge. Profs, please share that knowledge with us students when we ask for it! We don't know as much as you yet, but if we keep asking questions we will if we are helped to find the answers! Respect your students as people with potential. Please stop having this power struggle; yes you have a PhD and you are smart and students should respect that, please respect students as those on a quest for the knowledge that you possess. Sometimes students may email you and you'd rather ignore it because it's about what type of notebook to buy or about missing class; isn't it better to have students emailing you than no one caring about your class and and you not receiving "time-wasting" emails?
3)student emails "impos[e] on the prof's time or even ask...a question that may reflect badly on their own judgement...[or] adversely affect them"
As for the time issue, please refer to argument 1. For the second argument, is asking a "stupid" question in an email not the same as asking a "stupid" question in class? Those students who ramble on about unrelated shenannagans in class are using up time in lecture. I would like to point out here that I agree that this, however frustrating, is excellent practice for the real world. Any question asked anywhere by any means has the risks of wasting time and making a bad impression on the 'answerer.' However, if a question is never asked, will the answer ever be known? As for students that write emails that are about missing class and wanting notes and whatnot, I don't really see how that would reflect badly on the student. Any astute prof knows who attends class regularly and who doesn't. As stated before, they already have made a judgement about the student who has missed the last two weeks of class and an email stating that they can't make it doesn't change their feelings. However, if a student that regularly attends misses class and wants to catch up on what they missed or have questions shows an interest in learning and that they care about the class. I don't really understand how that can give a poor perception of a student. I agree that if you can get notes from a classmate or from an online posting, you should do that, but there are circumstances that the ideal isn't always possible.
Overall, I think that yes, sometimes students overstep their boundaries with email, but the deeper issue is that profs should remember that they are teachers. Any good teacher will tell you that they care most about their students and if they learned, not how much time it took or how frustrating it was.
# 16 | kevin | February 22, 2006 6:54 PM
You should all know that Kirsten is a former student, one of my best, and I always respond to her emails! 8-)
I agree with everything, but on one thing: "As a teacher, it SHOULD be the prof's expectation that the students have potential for greatness. All too often profs ACTUAL expectation for their students is low, and therefore they see their students as annoying college kids who won't stop bothering them."
I am going to take it as given that you consider me an exception to this! (Except for the few students who very clearly didn't care [in one case when I asked a student why he didn't study more, try harder to understand the material, the student said to me, "Hey, the C's get the degrees!"], I had high expectations of my students and I think that's why my huge intro classes were a lot harder than the students wanted them to be.) But to defend my peers, I agree that a few profs are generally annoyed at the students, but most I know aren't. Most are motivated to be in academia for the love of learning and intellectual stimulation, and see teaching as an integral part of that. Unfortunately the demands of the tenure system and the publish-or-perish lifestyle do creep up on the modern academic, and it can make even the most level-headed grouchy.
# 17 | John D. | February 22, 2006 7:03 PM
As a student, I see that several issues that play into this type of behavior. I taken classes at large universities, in auditoriums, with 500 other suckers. I earned my AA from a community college where I only had 3 people in my first physics w/calc class. I am going to a school now where my average class is around 15-20 people. I have seen how differently learning works in these three settings.
If you are a student who is used to watching your professor on a monitor, whom you've never met, and you are used to going online to get a powerpoint from class everyday instead of taking notes, or showing to the lecture, then when you take a class that only has 20 people in it, you may not think it is a big deal to ask for notes if you miss class.
If you have taken classes from a school where you are used to having close personal contact with your professor, because there are only 9 of you in class, why would you hesitate to send a draft to a prof. a week ahead of time.
To me, all of the this boils down to the prof's right to say NO. If you don't want your students asking your for lecture notes, if you have been wading through rough drafts and want students to think for themselves a little; then put it in your syllabus, or on your website, or tell them the first day of class. Frankly we don't know you, we all came from different backgrounds, and as far as we are concerned it never hurts to ask. The ones who keep asking are the idiots.
Most students put a lot of money into going to school, and believe that a professor is more than just a hose that sprinkles information on a timer. So don't chastise us for asking, those of us are who are big girls and boys know how to take NO for an answer, and I don't think asking for notes, or asking for a draft to be reviewed is always asking for special consideration. If you as a professor feel that it is, then it is up to you to let me know that, so I am not wasting your time, or more importantly mine.
# 18 | Leo T | February 23, 2006 1:58 PM
b**ch b**ch b**ch, college profs don't have the time, students don't have the time...there is a division, yet there is a responsibility on both memebers. An important aspect to an active education is peer-input/review. On the other hand, how can a prof tell the difference between active/willing to learn students from morons? Communication. If a prof neglects his/her students, then the active student must be willing to locate their answers else where, but the morons expect something for nothing: paradox, hence the substance of this blog: should moron (highschoolers) be allowed to bother the active (adult) participants? Of course, then how will any moron (child)become informed (responsible), or are we doomed to them forever? Growth is hard WORK on all the parties involved. I found a moment to add my input in my hectic schedule, will you? If it means that some one reading this might gain?