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« We're all Dakotans | Main | Doonesbury scores! »

Uh-oh, it's got algebra in it

Category:
Posted on: February 25, 2006 7:20 PM, by PZ Myers

You Passed 8th Grade Math

Congratulations, you got 10/10 correct!

I wonder what kind of score Richard Cohen would get?

(via Living the Scientific Life)

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Comments

#1

Richard Cohen get's a zero, cause he doesn't need any of this. My 6th grader got 10 of 10, because he will need algebra to get into a good college.

Posted by: J-Dog | February 25, 2006 7:49 PM

#2

I got 9/10. I didn't know what the mode of the series of data was. I guessed between mode or standard deviation and guessed wrong. I had a 50/50 chance and blew it.
But then again I don't recall ever seeing this covered. I still have my school textbooks(Since the 5th grade I always stole an extra copy of my school books from the classroom spares so I could keep one at school and one at home. Nobody ever caught me so what the hell?)
I'm not going to go through the 50+ odd books I've had all the way from 5th-12th grade to find it but I honestly don't think the mode of a series of numbers was ever covered at any grade level when I was still in the grades.

MYOB'
.

Posted by: MYOB | February 25, 2006 8:04 PM

#3

I got a 9/10, and I'm a math idiot.

How can you see what question(s) you got wrong? I suspect it was the mode/standard deviation question because that was total guesswork.

Posted by: Mnemosyne | February 25, 2006 8:20 PM

#4

I think this topic and the original post on Cohen column are an example of what's wrong with math education in the US -- and I say this being one of the lucky few with a gift for math and a love of the subject.

I've spent a lot of time tutoring people in math, regular people and otherwise good students who for want of a decent teacher and moderately enlighted teaching methods struggled with the work and the humilation of failure. Making them feel even worse -- even if possible -- is not the answer. Changing the way it is taught and the way schools are run is, if I may be so bold, the obvious solution.

Posted by: AndyS | February 25, 2006 8:34 PM

#5

10/10

According to Richard Cohen, that means I cannot construct a readable English sentence.

Posted by: Nullifidian | February 25, 2006 8:37 PM

#6

In grad school, the instructor of our statistics courses noted a well known entertainer was going to visit campus that weekend. I can't recall who, say Dolly Parton, just to have a name. He said he'd really love to meet her. We started kidding him about it.

"Whatever would you two have in common to talk about?" we chided.

"Why," he replied, "bimodal distributions, of course."

Posted by: Bill Ware | February 25, 2006 8:47 PM

#7

MYOB and Mnemosyne, the mode of a series of numbers is the number that appears the most times in that series. So in the series {2,2,3,4,5}, 2 would be the mode because it appears two times while all the other numbers appear only once.

Posted by: Skemono | February 25, 2006 8:51 PM

#8

Robert Reys, a former high school mathematics teacher, now a professor of mathematics education at the University of Missouri-Columbia writes:

...most US schools are still mired in a 19th-century course sequence of Algebra I, Geometry, and Algebra II.

Do you think that's the case because it works so well?

Algorithms and tedious procedures were demonstrated with little or no explanation of why they work. Sensemaking and understanding were not a part of my experience of learning mathematics. Students left class thinking that math consisted only of dull procedures and rules to memorize.

That fits with my experience until I got to advanced math courses in college.

Dr. Alfred S. Posamentier, Dean, School of Education, and Professor of Mathematics Education at City College of NewYork writes:

Our current dilemma is facing off those who successfully learned mathematics with those who feel that there must be a better way to learn mathematics, since so few learn it successfully and then develop a love for the subject. We are obviously not doing this task as well as we should, or else there wouldn't be so many people ready to admit (and be proud of it) that they were never good in mathematics. Would we have this math teacher shortage today if we had taught mathematics better at the lower grades?

Much of what I've seen in the Cohen posts and their comments looks like remarks from the "those who successfully learned mathematics" group -- and those who admire them. What I haven't seen are comments from anyone who actually knows something about math ed.

Posamentier continues:

We thought that all we had to do as teachers was to explain concepts and procedures clearly, have learners practice, and then give them reinforcement and feedback. Now with technology, we have been studying the brain and how meaning develops. Neurobiologists have shown that algorithms are performed on a different side of the brain than the side used for mathematical thinking and that focusing on the practice of algorithms in the early years actually can impede the development of mathematical reasoning. Cognitive developmental researchers have also proven repeatedly over the last fifty years that meaning develops progressively. Mathematics cannot just be explained or transmitted. The brain chunks information in order to organize it and make sense of it, and thus new ideas are connected to prior conceptions.

George Polya (1887-1985) a distinguished mathematician and professor at Stanford University who made important contributions to probability theory, number theory, the theory of functions, and the calculus of variations wrote in 1969:

Therefore the schools, especially the primary schools, are today in an evolution. A sizable fraction, ten to twenty percent, already have the new method of teaching which can be characterized in the following way in comparison with the old method of teaching. The old method is authoritative and teacher-centered. The new method is permissive and student-centered. In the old time the teacher was in the center of the class or in front of the class. Everybody looked at him and what he said. Today the individual students should be in the center of the class, and they should be allowed to do whatever good idea comes to their mind. They should be allowed to pursue it in their own way, each by himself or in small groups. If a student has a good idea in class discussion then the teacher changes his plans and enters into the good idea and now the class follows this idea.

That was written 37 years ago. Everybody here who was taught math in this "new" way raise their hand.

Posted by: AndyS | February 25, 2006 9:14 PM

#9

Phew, I was a little nervous to actually take it but it all worked out.

I was also surprised to see the 'mode' question on there. I don't recall covering any statistical concepts beyond the mean in K-12, but then again I'm frankly a bit hazy about a good chunk of my childhood.

Maybe that speaks to more stats training in school nowadays, which would be a good thing.

Posted by: jbark | February 25, 2006 9:30 PM

#10

I always thought the mode was that lump of vanilla ice cream that arrives with your apple pie.

Posted by: Kieran | February 25, 2006 9:31 PM

#11

The one that made me pause was the "-7" one. Was stuck for a while wondering if it was a prime number. Couldn't recall ever hearing of a negative prime, though it didn't seem an unreasonable idea, but in the end decided it was just an integer.

Posted by: NelC | February 25, 2006 9:31 PM

#12

Crap, 8/10. I always forget what defines irrational numbers and other mathematical deifnitions.

But I'm sure I got all the actual problems correct. That test was extremely easy. I would be a very upset parent if my son or daughter could not pass that.

Has anyone here emailed this to Mr. Cohen for his response? ;)

Posted by: BlueIndependent | February 25, 2006 9:47 PM

#13

MYOB and Mnemosyne, the mode of a series of numbers is the number that appears the most times in that series. So in the series {2,2,3,4,5}, 2 would be the mode because it appears two times while all the other numbers appear only once.

Ah. In that case, that was definitely the one I got wrong, then. I guessed it was the standard deviation.

And I have to agree with AndyS -- math is VERY poorly taught in this country. I probably would have had fewer problems with math if I hadn't been put in the stupid group of math students in 5th grade.

Why was I there? Because the teacher couldn't explain to me why I couldn't subtract a larger number from a smaller number during long division when I knew perfectly well that negative numbers existed. It turned into a whole, "Because I said so, that's why!" situation, which is the situation in which I learn least well.

In fact, most math seems to be taught that way. Not, "Here's one way to solve this problem," but "This is the only PROPER way to solve this problem."

Posted by: Mnemosyne | February 25, 2006 9:53 PM

#14

10/10, philosophy and political science geek. I guess I should get a job with the scientificians!

Posted by: bmurray | February 25, 2006 10:44 PM

#15

There's always a fifth answer for the ID/creationist students: God knows/Goddidit and that's good enough for me.

Posted by: natural cynic | February 25, 2006 10:50 PM

#16

I gave up after 5 of the questions; considering I last took a math class 30 years ago, a class which I hated, that's not surprising

Truly, would someone explain to me the relevance of any of those questions in my day to day life (I'm a secretary by profession). I'm not trying to be provocative, I want to know. Please note: "Because it promotes logic" or "It will make you a smarter human being" or any variation on those won't fly.

Posted by: Henry Holland | February 25, 2006 10:55 PM

#17

Mnemosyne, you've copped to the cruel way of talking about tracking in schools with the line, "I probably would have had fewer problems with math if I hadn't been put in the stupid group of math students in 5th grade." I'm not pointing a finger at you; this is how most everyone talks about it. Kids learn early on they come in three varieties — smart, regular, and stupid — and math class is often the determining factor. While there are people who have real difficulties with math that might be traced to genetic endowment, I'm convinced that most people who really struggle with it are victims of bad teachers and bad teaching methods.

Think of it — and help me out here PZ since this is directly related to human biology — why do we structure schools such that everyone is expected to progress, year-by-year in every subject along with other people of the same age? Just off hand that seems preposterous, yet it is the basic organizing principle of all K-12 education in the USA. Is there anything in developmental biology that suggests this is a good idea? I'm thinking here of the vast variation demonstrated among the general population along most every dimension that one can measure.

Couple that notion with the oddity of saying to a 13 year old that math, for example, is to be learned in 9 month units broken into 50 minute chucks starting 2 o'clock, 5 days a week, in a room full off of 20 to 35 students of the same age and one teacher with a white/black-board at the front of the room. In math in particular it's quite possible if you fail to learn a certain idea a couple of weeks into the course everything subsequent to that will become a blackhole sucking in any perseverance and self-esteem you might have left — to say nothing of killing off all joy in the subject. This is the reoccurring theme in the people I've worked with.

Now put a bad teacher in the picture, one who takes the easy out and teaches only to the top 10% of the class. I can't think of a better way to ruin the mathematical experience for the vast majority of students.

Personal experience: I took at grad course in computational theory (entirely about math and proofs) at the U of Michigan. Of the more than 60 students who started the course less than 20 of us passed. Yep, I had that intense rush when looking at my grade at the end of the semester. I was way cool, I survived, I must be really smart. But what does it say about the teaching method? You couldn't get in to the engineering grad school if you didn't have some pretty impressive qualifications. Sure, a fancy grad school has some slack with stuff like this, but a similar thing happens to many people much earlier in their educational life. It's an absurd approach to what should be one of the most joyous aspects of living: learning.

Posted by: AndyS | February 25, 2006 11:01 PM

#18

Truly, would someone explain to me the relevance of any of those questions in my day to day life (I'm a secretary by profession).

Someday you might want to be something other than a secretary. I think it's fair to want children to have as many options open as possible (even past grade 8!) and this material is not all that difficult for most kids.

Whether or not you need or remember it now is not relevant to whether or not our kids should know enough to be able to decide between a multitude of fulfilling vocations. You have your niche and are satisfied with it, but we can't afford to have our high schools turn out too many secretaries. We'll need some other jobs filled too.

Posted by: bmurray | February 25, 2006 11:01 PM

#19

They never taught "mode" in my arduous climb up through Diff E way back when, either, but I've seen it a lot on the 7th/8th grade homework I've been helping my wife grade recently. Maybe its the Venn Diagram for the new millenium - that was red hot when one of my kids was in school and seems to be passe now.

Posted by: Coragyps | February 25, 2006 11:02 PM

#20

Henry Holland: that exact sort of basic algebra would absolutely do wonders for many of the people I work with and for. They have a terrible time figuring out that 100 parts per million is 1/10 gallon per thousand gallons, or that this translates to 1.26 gallons of chemical per pay in a well that makes 300 barrels of fluid per day. And these folks aren't dumb: they just didn't get properly taught or didn't pay attention in junior high school.

But hell, it keeps my phone ringing...

Posted by: Coragyps | February 25, 2006 11:10 PM

#21

:Day." Not "pay." I wish I'd passed typing back in high school.

Posted by: Coragyps | February 25, 2006 11:11 PM

#22

Henry, you ask

Truly, would someone explain to me the relevance of any of those questions in my day to day life (I'm a secretary by profession). I'm not trying to be provocative, I want to know.

I think that's a brave and – in a good sense – provocative question. I'm eager to hear the answers others here might give you. Here's mine:

The relevance of those questions to your day-to-day life is, IMO, near zero (this is from someone very into math with a lifelong love of the subject, as I've said before). The reason it is only near and not actually zero is that some facility with algebra might help protect you from getting ripped off by a life insurance salesman or loan provider. However, there are many laws and regulations to protect you from those sorts of things.

Also, it might help your self-image when people say things like You have your niche and are satisfied with it, but we can't afford to have our high schools turn out too many secretaries. Doesn't get much more condescending than that, does it? Those sorts of comments are so typical of the math-enabled.

I see math ability as having a similar function to language competency. If you are fluent in, say, French as well as English you can talk to French people. If you are familiar with computer jargon you can talk to computer geeks like me about computers regarding both practical uses and their affect on society. Being more able in the language of mathematics means you can talk to others with that fluency. There is little relevance to your day-to-day life. Knowing how to sing and dance would have more impact on your happiness.

Why am I a math lover? Because it gives me entry into a vast intellectual environment with its own unique rewards. There is little in the sciences (both hard and soft), business, and economics that is not permeated with mathematics. Engineering is all about math. Even music has an aspect that deeply mathematical. Modern cryptography which is more and more significant in business and our personal lives is rooted in abstract algebra, a subject dear to my heart. All this and the innate beauty of pure math comes from a knowledge of mathematics.

What many math bigots don't seem to acknowledge is the wonderful variation among human beings. Some of us love math, others sing and dance or play softball, some especially gifted people seem to do it all. There's no reason to hold up math, beyond basic arithmetic, as especially important to the good life.

Posted by: AndyS | February 25, 2006 11:53 PM

#23

"How can you see what question(s) you got wrong? I suspect it was the mode/standard deviation question because that was total guesswork."


Backspace and change one of the answers you think you got wrong. Only do one at a time. If your score worsens then you had it right originally and move on to the next one. That is what I did. I went back and selected Mode rather than the other one and got 10/10.

MYOB'
.

Posted by: MYOB | February 25, 2006 11:56 PM

#24

it's not related, but nonetheless, i have a hope, a dream, that one day fundamentalism and religiously-inspired ignorance will be looked down upon by a scientifically-enlightened society as disease...
perhaps then we could be at peace.

Posted by: benzene | February 26, 2006 12:14 AM

#25

Someday you might want to be something other than a secretary. I think it's fair to want children to have as many options open as possible (even past grade 8!) and this material is not all that difficult for most kids.

No, I'm perfectly content to be a secretary. I know, it's hard to imagine, but there it is. And, as is obvious, I meant "How is it relevant to ME", nowhere did I even hint the opportunity to learn it should be denied others. Kids should be taught basic math (+, -, /, %) and if they want to pursue anything beyond that, it should be an elective.

I bitterly resented having to take two years of algebra in jr./high school when all I wanted to take was music and art classes but instead had to sit through that rubbish. And guess what? Not once, not even close, could a teacher answer my question and trust me, I asked. The standard answer: "Because". Oh how I laughed when the math/science geeks would ask the same question I posed in my original post in my beloved music and art classes. I sympathized and felt that they shouldn't have to be there if they didn't want to, all their evident antipathy did was take instruction time away from me and my musician/artist friends.

They have a terrible time figuring out that 100 parts per million is 1/10 gallon per thousand gallons, or that this translates to 1.26 gallons of chemical per pay in a well that makes 300 barrels of fluid per day.

Finally, some relevance! But I would say that's simple fractions and division and so on. Erm, OK, I guess you'd need the formula for figuring that out but instead of the 2x-/4-(y1453) stuff, why not something like this to convert kilometers per hour > mph: divide the km/h speed limit by 8 and multiply by 5. I wonder if that poor girl that Cohen wrote about had this stuff presented like that? Mode/standard deviation? Pointless in this context.

The reason it is only near and not actually zero is that some facility with algebra might help protect you from getting ripped off by a life insurance salesman or loan provider

Again, simple fractions, percentages and so on that are taught in basic math classes (which I had no problem with).

Even music has an aspect that deeply mathematical.

I'm a hobbyist musician that can read and understand some of the most complex opera scores ever written (hello Reimann's Lear and Zimmerman's Die Soldaten, how ya doin'?) and know exactly what's going on. That involves.....wait for it....be patient.....wait.....simple division and multiplication. Not a scintilla of algebra is involved. I learned how to read music in 15 minutes (thank you to Bobby, an old drummer boyfriend of my sister!) when I was 9.

Look, I'm ashamed of myself that I even agree .001% with anything Richard Cohen has ever said, but when I read that screed of his, I was all "YES! Finally! Someone is writing what I've felt for 30 years". Of course, a second reading revealed that he's basically an idiot, but that has nothing to do with his dislike of algebra.

Posted by: Henry Holland | February 26, 2006 12:59 AM

#26

The prime reason for learning algebra is an increased ability at pattern recognition.

Is it necessary? No. Most of the time. For some people.

Is it helpful? Certainly.

Posted by: AoT | February 26, 2006 1:44 AM

#27
The one that made me pause was the "-7" one. Was stuck for a while wondering if it was a prime number. ...

It is. The test incorrectly marks that answer as wrong.

There is a very general definition of prime number which applies to all number systems, but which is beyond the scope of ordinary school mathematics. However, it turns out that prime integers are precisely those which are evenly divisible only by themselves, their own negatives, +1 and -1. For pedagogical purposes at the elementary level, this, or some equivalent, can (and should) be taken as the definition.

The test also unfairly offers "whole number" as one of the alternatives, and incorrectly marks that answer as wrong too.

Posted by: David Wilson | February 26, 2006 2:20 AM

#28

How about we talk about the real uses of algebra, where and when they crop up?

The point of algebra is simple. It allows you to work with more complicated mathematical situations in a simpler way.

If you can keep several separate numbers in your head at once, your need for algebra may be less - but that doesn't mean it wouldn't help.

It also allows you to learn general rules for getting answers to certain types of questions that you COULD just learn the special rules for ... but then, you have to learn more rules.

For instance: If you intend to work out a good budget ... algebra is very helpful. It's not necessary... but it simplifies what you need to do, and can do so significantly.

Or, for an example that will motivate children rather more than adult secretaries... if you have five dollars, and want to get as much candy (each of which has different prices) as you can, you can use algebra to work that out - and again, you could use simple arithmatic, but algebra simplifies it.

Calculus, now, that one's hard to apply to day-to-day life. ;) (But it's very useful if you ever want to do physics. ... which is why I'm a computer scientist, not a physicist.)

Posted by: Michael "Sotek" Ralston [TypeKey Profile Page] | February 26, 2006 3:08 AM

#29

wow. I passed.
I have been a math illiterate since about 8th grade, so I'm surprised. I have a mental block when it comes to math. I've always figured it had something to do with my mom sleeping with my 7th grade math teacher and him talking about it in front of the whole class (I'm not kidding.)

I did get one wrong, but it WASN'T the "mode" one, so I am a little perplexed by that.

Posted by: Anon4This | February 26, 2006 3:22 AM

#30

"The test also unfairly offers "whole number" as one of the alternatives, and incorrectly marks that answer as wrong too."

aha! That means I got 10/10! :)

Posted by: Anon4This | February 26, 2006 3:25 AM

#31

Henry, think of it was like being forced to eat broccoli - its good for you.
Change algebra to music classes - what percentage of students are ever going to go into music for a living? Maybe 1 percent at most? Yet music classes up until 9th grade were NOT an elective, everyone had to take them. Then, in my school system, budget cuts in the 70's changed that.

I think overall school is a pretty crappy way to learn things, but its the only way we have to take masses of kids and pound some knowledge into them and hope at least some of it sticks.

If in 8th grade you hate algebra and your plans are to be a rock star, you might find yourself with a different set of priorities when you're in your second year of college, and you might then be glad you learned the math you didn't want to learn. Or, you might be glad you were "forced" to take the music classes you once hated.

Schools have to strive to give kids a rounded education that does as much as it can to cover all of the later possibilities in their lives - and in doing that, they will inevitably be forcing "useless" material on kids... the only alternative to that is to expect kids to choose their lives paths at age 12. That used to work, and even worked better 20 years ago than it works now. These days, nobody has one career their whole life. Well, almost nobody.

Posted by: craig | February 26, 2006 3:37 AM

#32

I got 9/10, and I haven't had any math instruction in 10 years (apart from day-to-day stuff we all utilize except, of course, Richard Cohen). I'm pretty proud of that, because math was always my worst subject (closest I ever came to getting a C was in college trig). Of course, I've spent most of that time as a journalist (recovering, nowadays), so I'm all screwed up. And for what it's worth, I hated the music and art classes I had in school. Can't draw a straight line to save my life and my first music teacher told us that blues, soul and country music "were not real music" and the music ap guy I had in college said the above three were too "common" to "have any real beauty".

Posted by: Matt T. | February 26, 2006 4:04 AM

#33
... However, it turns out that prime integers are precisely those which are evenly divisible only by themselves, their own negatives, +1 and -1. ...

Oops. I just realised I have committed the common blunder of failing to exempt +1 and -1 (which are not primes) from the definition. The correct definition is:

Prime integers are precisely those, with the exception of +1 and -1, which are evenly divisible only by themselves, their own negatives, and +1 and -1.

Posted by: David Wilson | February 26, 2006 5:23 AM

#34
Truly, would someone explain to me the relevance of any of those questions in my day to day life (I'm a secretary by profession). I'm not trying to be provocative, I want to know. Please note: "Because it promotes logic" or "It will make you a smarter human being" or any variation on those won't fly.

I'm surprised at no-one else (having looked through the replies) apparently providing specific instances of the usefulness of algebra.

Henry, I doubt any of those specific questions would come up in your everyday life. However, I don't suppose you were really intending to be as restrictive as that. There certainly are issues which arise in normal life and are best solved by algebra and higher mathematics of various sorts.

For example, some digibox users (ie a TV interface) had found they couldn't access certain pages of the BBC website. The situation was very complex (many variables) and they weren't very good at submitting coherent bug reports! Suddenly, one page which used to be visible suddenly stopped working for them. That was an important clue because the page itself hadn't changed. Just the number of conversations attached to it had. That meant the number of links (rather than graphics or any of the other variable factors elsewhere) was the culprit. I knew I could provide another way to look at the page, but adjusting one number meant that there were more of some links but fewer of others - changing at different rates. I had to quantify those rates with algebra and then differentiate to find the minimum point and solve back. When I posted the new link for them to use, it worked. They would probably have become annoyed and given up if I'd experimented on them with lot of different links in a trial and error method instead.

Perhaps as a secretary you don't do much viewing of websites with inferior equipment. However, you almost certainly do other things where you need to establish a balance (depending on how much responsibility you have). Eg Ordering in bulk might save on packaging and delivery but cause storage or cash flow problems. You could work out lots of separate guesses and then pick one, or you could find the "right" answer straight away.

Posted by: SEF | February 26, 2006 5:23 AM

#35

#7 is a trick question too: The second alternative is "none of the above", but the only "above" answer is 40%, which is wrong. As to whether -7 is a prime number, well it is a prime element in the ring Z of integers, but the term "prime number" usually applies only to numbers greater than 1. -7 is also a Gaussian prime, but we can hardly expect the average 8th grader to know that. 8-)

Posted by: Harald Hanche-Olsen | February 26, 2006 5:50 AM

#36

Henry,
I admire your confidence at age 14, about your chosen career path. Most kids have no idea at that stage, and not teaching them math is shutting down their career options not only in the exact sciences, but social sciences as well.

Also, as Sagan said once, furniture factories are being shut down for lack of personnel able to perform simple math unaided by machines.

Algebra also provides one with the ability to perform algorithmic tasks, which is no trivial matter.

Posted by: ParanoidMarvin | February 26, 2006 5:51 AM

#37

I wasn't terribly good at math at school, but I did enjoy it enough to get a reasonable pass at 'O'-level and take it at 'A'-level. But the teaching changed, or I changed, or something, and I could never grasp calculus. I learnt enough to answer some questions -- I barely scraped a pass -- but I could never get a handle on how to use it, and the teachers never bothered to explain what it was for, blithely rushing into what seems like now to be nearly two years of differential equations. It didn't help that I was in the less-able class (i.e. not likely to get into Oxford or Cambridge) and the teachers scarcely seemed to care about teaching us. At the end of the course, they briefly covered a new subject that wasn't differential equations (but I forget what it was) and decided we were too dumb to be taught statistics, since we couldn't grasp diff eq. Argh!

And that, oh best beloved, is how I became a graphic designer.

Posted by: NelC | February 26, 2006 7:01 AM

#38

Henry: I'm not sure why you differentiate (no pun intended) between algebra and arithmetic. Algebra is a more formalised way of doing arithmetic.

For example, "what's two times five?" can be expressed as "2×5" or "x=2×5". The outcome is identical. Claiming to use arithmetic without algebra is disingenuous - you're merely creating an implicit variable in your head ("the answer is..."), and removing the explicit "x=".

Algebra allows us to make our unknown explicit, and then manipulate it in less obvious ways. We can split up our unknowns into "(x-a)(x-b)=0" and so on. But that's just the advanced applications of knowing the system. Knowing in the first place is just formalising what we already do in our heads.

It's the same thing with language. We learn syntax as small children: how to conjugate tenses (with exceptions, like "eat" to "ate", instead of "eated"). Once we've mastered that, is that any reason to deny ourselves the fuller understanding of high school english classes?


Posted by: Ithika | February 26, 2006 7:17 AM

#39

You know, I'm a little afraid to take the quiz. What if I don't get a 10/10? And it's totally for gendered reasons that I'm worried.

I was in advanced math from 6th grade on. I took math with students one year older than me through my junior year of high school, when I took AP Calc. There, the regular AP Calc teacher was ill and had to take the year off so we got an eighth grad math teacher. He ended up taking a lot of days off -- I think he was panicking about teaching calculus -- and we learned nothing. It was taught in a computer lab so we would surreptitiously turn on the computers and play with them. I was one of two women in the class, and the guys would monopolize class time, flamboyantly answer questions on the board, and otherwise imply they totally understood the material. They did manage to teach themselves somewhat, because the teacher did not. Though I had loved math up to this point, I ended up with a 1 on the AP Calc exam. Completely bombed it.

I could say more specifically about the gender issues in my class but won't bother. Won't be anything you all haven't heard/experienced before. I will say I re-took calculus in college and had a great, energetic instructor and it made me enjoy the material again. It was a bigger class where a few personalities couldn't dominate so the teacher dominated (in a very useful way).

Posted by: Kate | February 26, 2006 7:32 AM

#40

What the hell happened to my multiplication symbols??

Posted by: Ithika | February 26, 2006 7:40 AM

#41

1,4,9,10 were to solve linear equations.
2,6 were about definitions.
5,7 were about estimation
8 was to evaluate a simple expression
3 was about setting up an algebraic expression based on a word problem.

Some areas, such as geometry, were not covered at all.
Here is a more extensive 8th grade test:
http://www.doe.mass.edu/mcas/2003/release/g8math.pdf

Posted by: Arun | February 26, 2006 7:42 AM

#42

Just FYI, here is a grade X Indian Central Board of Secondary Education
math question paper:

http://www.cbse.nic.in/curric~1/Math06.pdf

Posted by: Arun | February 26, 2006 7:49 AM

#43
What the hell happened to my multiplication symbols??

This page obviously doesn't support Unicode very well. Try using the HTML representation: × gives you ×.

Posted by: Eric | February 26, 2006 8:01 AM

#44

I recently found someone asking why they would ever need to know how to factor polynomials. It's tough to describe an everyday situation for some of those easy parts of algebra all by themselves, but the real answer is that they're necessary prerequisites for all sorts of more directly useful things.

My explanation to this person was that factoring polynomials is one of the simplest kinds of "root finding." That's necessary if you can control one thing and you want another thing, which depends on it, to be a certain value. And when you get into calculus, and that dependent thing is a "derivative," you can use root finding to see what value of one thing makes another thing the lowest or highest that it can be. Basically, it allows you to figure out the best value for something, and anyone can see uses for that.

Posted by: Troutnut | February 26, 2006 8:14 AM

#45

10/10. 8th grade is mine.

Posted by: The Rev. Schmitt. | February 26, 2006 8:17 AM

#46

Here's some relevance that can really help the average person. I track all of my finances on linked spreadsheets. I write in the formulas that carry info between cells on excel. It's really pitifully simple to do, but you do need to have a basic understanding of symbolic representation to set up those pages.

Of course, you could just buy Quicken and let it do everything for you as well, so I guess it's not absolutely necessary...

Posted by: rjb | February 26, 2006 8:34 AM

#47

I'm not sure if this would have counted as grade 8 math where I was. I remember a unit on geometry in my class. I also remember that mode, median, etc. were actually covered (at this sort of elementary level) in my grade 6 course, and there was some statistics in my grade 7 course. I can't for the life of me remember what it consisted of, either.

Posted by: Keith Douglas | February 26, 2006 8:39 AM

#48

It turns out, you don't really need to know how to *read* either. I mean, most people got by just fine throughout most of human history without reading. And in more modern times, I can think of a few careers in which reading is completely unnecessary. There are quite a few more I would have thought reading wasn't useful for when I was actually learning to read, which is probably more relevant. And there are certainly people that have trouble learning to read so it's not as automatic as you might guess once you've been doing it for 30 years.

Yet, I doubt there's a person on the planet who can read now and would be willing to go back and relive their life without it.

Why learn anything? Because it changes you.

Posted by: blah | February 26, 2006 8:46 AM

#49

I got 9/10, but my 10-year-old daughter got 10/10. Who says evolution ain't progressive? ;)

Posted by: Aris | February 26, 2006 8:50 AM

#50

This page obviously doesn't support Unicode very well. Try using the HTML representation: × gives you ×.

That's the problem, you see — I did use the HTML entity. However, I think my downfall was then hitting preview to see if it worked, and submitting from that. I think the preview function probably inserts the resultant glyph back into the form, instead of the entity that you write, and so when you finally hit 'post' it makes an ugly mess of things.

This is all guesswork at the moment. I shall hit preview now and see what it does to my em dash :)

PS. I was right about the preview box mangling things up. Are the devs paying attention to this thread?

PPS. Why does this thing never remember my personal info? Does it rely on javascript?


Posted by: Ithika | February 26, 2006 9:19 AM

#51
I'm not sure why you differentiate (no pun intended) between algebra and arithmetic. Algebra is a more formalised way of doing arithmetic.

Arithmetic is expressible as algebra. That doesn't mean that it *is* algebra, though--its relationship to algebra is not unique. Arithmetic could be expressible in other systems as well. Just because arithmetic is a subset of algebra, doesn't mean that we can't differentiate between them. We differentiate between subsets and supersets all the time. Arithmetic is useful on its own, without any knowledge of algebra.

Posted by: pdf23ds | February 26, 2006 9:56 AM

#52

The test also unfairly offers "whole number" as one of the alternatives, and incorrectly marks that answer as wrong too.

I don't think so. "Whole number" is usually used to refer to the set of positive integers--only reading that comment led me to find that it has ever been used as a synonym for integers. So you can only really say that this question is not very precise, not that it's wrong.

Posted by: Skemono | February 26, 2006 10:07 AM

#53

10/10! Woo! Artist can do math! (I remember my eighth grade math teacher telling me that if I became an artist, I'd use geometry all the time. This was a filthy lie. I do not doubt that some artists are constantly plagued by their need to determine the volume of a cylinder, but my sleep is yet untroubled by it.)

However, I will not say that I do not use complex math in my life, because I have used more of my math education playing D&D than I would ever have thought possible.

Posted by: UrsulaV | February 26, 2006 10:16 AM

#54

Just because arithmetic is a subset of algebra, doesn't mean that we can't differentiate between them. We differentiate between subsets and supersets all the time.

That's true, but I think subsets and supersets are the wrong way to picture about this. Algebra is more a tool of manipulation that applies to all mathematics and logic. Rhetorical algebra was used thousands of years before the standard notations and formalisations were created. This is the algebra which I refer to when I say "the answer" — this implicit way of remembering where the answer goes once we've performed the calculations.

Arithmetic is useful on its own, without any knowledge of algebra.

I don't think it is — if we have no way of assigning meaning to an expression then the arithmetic is useless. Anyone can type 2×5 into a calculator and hit the enter button, but it takes algebra (in some form, no matter how simplified) to know that "the cost of five pies at two pounds each" is semantically the same as the above calculation; and consequently, will provide the answer that you want.

That's why, IMHO, people find the word-based maths questions on the back page of newspapers so challenging. Because the simple conversion of a problem into "knowns", "unknowns" and "relationships between" is beyond a lot of people. Anything more than a few values (the oft-quoted 7±2 items) and the human brain gets a bit overloaded; which is where falling back on notation and formalisms is so useful.

If we don't have that facility then our ability to use arithmetic is hampered: we can't get the answer if we can't correctly pose the question.

This is, of course, all just my little opinion. :)

Posted by: Ithika | February 26, 2006 10:19 AM

#55

10/10. The last question was tricky: "Now, please tell us what kind of code we should give you for your results" - Code? I don't want it in code. You gotta learn how to crack codes just to find out your answer?

Posted by: wamba | February 26, 2006 10:29 AM

#56

Henry, you ask why you "need to know" algebra. And then you state you are a secretary and are satisfied with your job, as if those two statements have anything to do with your question. This reveals what you think education is for - that it is strictly mercenary, that it teaches you how to make money, that it has nothing whatever to do with you as a person.

I can only paraphrase to you from the Underground Grammarian:

Sweet are the uses of audacity. Henry may indeed be asking to provoke, and as a challenge, and without even suspecting that he truly does want an answer, or even that there is one, but all of that can be said of every true and important question. The important question is the one that no one can answer, as we can answer questions about the principal exports of Brazil and the capitals of the states. The important question calls not for that sort of answer, but for thoughtful consideration. It calls for that thinking of which Henry seems to have detected no trace in, of all things, the study of algebra! Why on earth would anybody teach this stuff to a whole bunch of children who will never again algebrate once they leave this place?

Here we can see the difference between the answering of a question and thoughtful consideration of a question. There surely is an answer, and an especially appropriate one in the case of Henry, who hasn't done any serious thinking about mathematics: Those who teach it can get some money from the taxpayers. While we would provide only an accidental occasion of education in stating this, we would have won Henry's praise for candor and good citizenship by the truth: "You have to take this course, Henry, since it is required by law; and I am teaching it in order to get paid for putting you through your term of enforced labor for the state. So shut up and mind your QED's." In his opinion, so far as we can tell, that is not only the truth, rare enough, but also the whole truth, rarer than rubies. But that truth, we suspect, Henry knew already. His question means: I know what's going on here, but I can't understand why such an unaccountable system should exist at all. Can you tell me, Mr. Teacher?

It's a fine question, and a fair one. It is also a question that Henry would probably not have had to ask at all had his teacher asked it first of himself and considered it. Had he done that, he would have been teaching in a way that would have led Henry out of darkness and into light.

A specter is haunting the schools. The dead hand of problem-solving rules them. They can find no other justification for the study of algebra than the hope that some of the students will be able to solve problems in algebra. Sometimes they do go a little further and claim that such studies as algebra are pushups for the mind, exercises for the strengthening of something or other. But even this slightly better idea they trivialize by supposing no other possible power of the mind than the same old problem-solving. Well, of course, Henry, we know that you will never again in your life have to solve problems in algebra, but you will have to be an "educated" consumer who can figure out unit prices in the supermarket, won't you, to say nothing of balancing your checkbook?

Such an argument is, of course, too puny, even for the school people, to preserve algebra as a "required course". It is also, typically, an argument from particulars rather than principles, and any Henry of our time could demolish it by whipping out his calculator. Here we can see the great mystery at the heart of the school mess. What is it with these people, that they scramble like demented trash-pickers after every newly noticed particular and never see the principles of which every particular is no more than an instance? AIDS comes along, and they need new programs, with funding. Cholesterol comes along, an old grandmother dying in a nursing home comes along, oat bran comes along, cocaine comes along, abortion, toxic waste, the fractional latchkey family... Particulars are always infinite. And they all need programs, and funding. But in principle, such things are never new; they are all local appearances of the permanent and universal.

Algebra is a world of principle, and a dramatic revelation of the power of principle. In fact, algebra, and even algebra alone, could provide a true and sufficient education out of which to understand the worth of living by principle in a life beset by a never-ending succession of nasty particulars, and at the same time provident of joy and goodness and thoughtfulness.

Listen, Henry, and be comforted. There is nothing wrong with your impatience and chagrin. Your very objection proves that you can see, if only from a great distance, an important truth. Algebra is a strange study indeed. It doesn't even exist, in the sense most ordinary to that word. There is no algebra our there; you will not find it under a rock or washed up on the beach. Never will a little child bring it to you, asking what it is. Algebra isn't even as "real" as a poem or a song, which can be picked up in the world even though the world could never make it.

Algebra has its dwelling place only in a mind. We can not even say, as we can of our power of language, that algebra exists in the mind. It can live only in a mind that creates it anew for itself. That's why no one can really teach you algebra, and why math teachers are, as you seem to have figured out, a bit of a fraud. But I can no more create something in your mind than I can take off a few of your pounds by watching my calories. I can show you some tricks, but you must do the teaching. And, no matter what they tell you in the slippery world of pliable convictions and values, you will have it in your mind that you can know something--truly know it, and not just believe it, or be informed of it--and maybe, since that is so, you can truly know something else. It's interesting to wonder what such a something else might be.

I think you should learn algebra, because I wish you well, as a teacher, even a bit of a fraud teacher, should, and not because I want you to solve algebra problems. You will find that algebra shows you some truths. The first great truth is that there can be something real, and complete, and harmonious, and even, in some strange way, absolutely perfect right in your own mind, and made by you alone. You will see that you have a wonderful freedom not mentioned in the Bill of Rights, the freedom to decide what your mind will contain and how it will work. You don't have to copy the rest of the world.

Algebra tells sad truths too. Where there is no balance, there is no truth. What is equal is equal, and between the equal and the unequal there is no conference table, no convenient compromise. In this terrible law there is a hinting question for all of life. Are there other things like that?

Algebra will show you the inexorable, the endless and permanent chain of consequence, the dark thread of necessity that brought you to a wrong answer because of a tiny little mistake back in the second line. I know how unfair that seems, and how scary that what seems unfair is nevertheless justice. Is life like that too, as all of nature seems to be? How then shall we live? What are the laws of the algebra of our living, and where do they exist, where created? Who can show us how to learn them?

No prudent teacher would ever say such things to Henry, of course; he is probably not ready to listen. It takes some serious living to see the truth hidden in algebra.


Enjoy the whole essay, "The Uses of Audacity", at: http://www.sourcetext.com/grammarian/newslettersv14/14.3.htm

Posted by: Jason | February 26, 2006 10:32 AM

#57

Harald Hanche-Olsen wrote:


.. As to whether -7 is a prime number, well it is a prime element in the ring Z of integers, but the term "prime number" usually applies only to numbers greater than 1. ...

Oops again. You're right---I should have checked my definitions before sounding my mouth off. Apologies for the misinformation and false accusation that the test's marking of that answer was incorrect.

I wrote:


The test also unfairly offers "whole number" as one of the alternatives, and incorrectly marks that answer as wrong too.

Skemono replied:


I don't think so. "Whole number" is usually used to refer to the set of positive integers--only reading that comment led me to find that it has ever been used as a synonym for integers. So you can only really say that this question is not very precise, not that it's wrong.

On this one I'm prepared to stick to my guns. The term "whole number", like the term "natural number", seems to be genuinely ambiguous. I have no problem with anyone choosing the definition they prefer and sticking to it. But for a test offered to such a wide audience as this one was, it seems unreasonable to me to mark an answer as wrong when, according to one reasonably widely accepted use of the terminology concerned, it is in fact correct.

Posted by: David Wilson | February 26, 2006 11:35 AM

#58

Henry asks a legitimate question. Lots of people fail miserably at one topic or another. Languages, math, spelling, music, drawing, gym each have their victims. Knowledge or capability in each of those areas is good, but none of them is absolutely necessary for leading a long, productive, and happy life. So why make them absolute requirements for high school graduation?

1) An important reason to force students to master something they hate and can't do is to teach them that they can in fact do what they previously considered impossible. When this works, it's the best confidence-builder in the world, although it will backfire if the student keeps failing.

2) If you can do some math, you can disagree more confidently with people who are trying to push you around with math and statistics. (In retrospect, should people have trusted Bush with respect to social security, or should they have looked a little more carefully at his dismissal of 'fuzzy math'?)

3) Life isn't predictable, the fates throw curveballs at us. The secretary in my department was (I think) happy being a secretary, but then all the professors got computers and started doing their own typing. Also, state support for higher education dried up. To keep her job, our secretary had to start doing new stuff, including spreadsheets, which require algebraic formulas if you are going to do anything useful with them.

4) Here are two hypothetical story problems that might be relevant: A) Henry, suppose you've decided to start an amateur arts group to put on an opera, and it's going to cost $8,000 when all is said and done. (You had to do math to get the cost, but let's skip that.) You've got 75 prime seats that you might be able to charge around $15 for, 200 seats that you might be able to sell at $10, and you want to sell maybe 50 seats to kids at $5, and you also want offer a few seats as freebies for publicity. How many performances will you have to sell out to break even? How do slight variations in the pricing structure affect your budget? Algebraic formulas in a spreadsheet are the easiest way to figure this out.

B) Two salesmen are trying to sell you a photocopier. One copier costs $12000, and ink is $75 a cartridge, good for about 1000 pages, and they promise that parts will be available for 5 years. They'll let you buy it for $12000, or for $311.29 per month over 5 years. The other company offers to rent you one, and they'll provide ink, paper, and servicing, but they'll charge you $85 / month plus 4 cents per page. Your boss doesn't know math either. Which deal works best for you?

As someone said earlier, algebra (and, more generally, mathematics) teaches you how to arrange numbers in complicated word problems so that you can arrange things in logical ways and get answers according to general principals.

Posted by: N.Wells | February 26, 2006 11:39 AM

#59

Henry,

In one of your comments above you say "that's just arithmetic" and go on to demonstrate that you can do simple algebra. I suspect that's true for many people. You have an intuitive grasp of at least some of the subject, apparently the parts you need in your day-to-day life. Good for you. Often we learn in spite of the school system.

When I mentioned that music can be seen as deeply mathematical you responded:

I'm a hobbyist musician that can read and understand some of the most complex opera scores ever written (hello Reimann's Lear and Zimmerman's Die Soldaten, how ya doin'?) and know exactly what's going on. That involves.....wait for it....be patient.....wait.....simple division and multiplication. Not a scintilla of algebra is involved.

Oh, there is a rich world out there, involving many scintilla's of algebra, trig, and other parts of math. Just google "mathematics and music" and check out a few of the links.

Posted by: AndyS | February 26, 2006 11:53 AM

#60

Math Anxiety, Lousy Textbooks and the Fun of Autodidact Algebra.

I was one of those folks with a blinding math anxiety, in which the numbers and symbols become inscrutable runes of a language I do not know. At all.

I got 9/10 on this silly test. What gives?

Algebra in high school was a course I dropped because I was failing, but I stole the book and happily did the whole thing over the summer on my own. For fun. (I still have the book and it beats today's typical HS Algebra book by far.)

It may have been the way it was taught in class or simply that class is a public place and for years I could not seem to do math of any kind in classrooms. Or anywhere when someone was looking. Alone, I could do the math and even enjoyed it, but if someone so much as watched me subtract the last check in my checkbook, I could not make sense of the numbers.

Still I did algebra on my own for fun. It was a secret, though, because if anyone knew, I would have to prove it, and I knew I could not do that because if my smart siblings (who always aced all the maths) were to watch me, the math aphasia would hit.

I used to blame the six-foot tall scary nun, Sr. Barnard, who taught 4th grade. We had these timed drills of the multiplication tables, and when you were finished you would slap your paper down on your desk and go stand up by the board. Public, competitive, terrifying. That's when my beloved math turned to babble before my eyes. I even got tunnel vision and damn near passed out during those drills. I would practice at home, feverishly, and do fine, and still Tuesday mornings were so scary to me that I regularly had "a tummyache mommy I think I am going to throw up I can't go to school".

I dropped out of college (to take a theatre job that allowed me to travel all over the North America) and it was thirteen years before I went back. The first math course I took ("College Math for Nontrad Dummies" or whatever it was called) was taught by the head of the department (I went to one of the Vermont state colleges), a guy who somehow convinced us that no one need to have math anxiety. He was also one of the most calm yet enthusiastic guys I have known.

I aced the course and ended up tutoring other nursing students in every subject, even the math bits. (As a non-trad, I did all those little money makers: peer tutor, drive the shuttle bus to the hospital, sell my kid's meds to the college kids...okay, I didn't do the last one)

Years later, when my kids took math and algebra, I watched how it was taught. It has worsened, IMO. Maybe some of us will always be situational math aphasics, and that is what self-paced computer-based courses can help resolve, perhaps.

But the books I have seen over the last couple decades have sucked. In an attempt to make algebra "relevant" or something, and heaven forbid they should intimidate students with volume, the books are full of pictures and graphs and stories. But what happened to all the pages of problems? Now there are ten or twenty to solve before you go to the next concept. There used to be 100-150! By the time you were through these (or the odd numbered ones as many teachers assigned), you usually grokked it. Boring? Sometimes. But also mesmerizing, immersive, meditative, and rewarding.

I have no idea how common my tale may be. I meet an alarming number of Humanities tribespeople who are proud of despising math and algebra. WTF? For all the movie-inspired common stereotypes of scientists, I have not actually met many geeks without poetic sensibilities, but I have met lots of poseur lit sillies who talk obscurantist drivel and think muddy means profound...

Skeptyk

Posted by: Skeptyk | February 26, 2006 12:03 PM

#61

However, I think my downfall was then hitting preview to see if it worked, and submitting from that. I think the preview function probably inserts the resultant glyph back into the form, instead of the entity that you write, and so when you finally hit 'post' it makes an ugly mess of things.

This is all guesswork at the moment. I shall hit preview now and see what it does to my em dash :)

PS. I was right about the preview box mangling things up. Are the devs paying attention to this thread?

Noticed that myself a few days ago. Posted something which got eaten, tried to post again and previewed first, then finally just gave up entirely, but that was usi