…and this is a 
Godless bloggers vs. Pensacola Christian College: who is more powerful?
Category: Godlessness • Weblogs
Posted on: March 29, 2006 2:50 PM, by PZ Myers
Here's an optimistic idea:
Personally, I have a great deal of hope that this is going to start to change in the near future. Indeed, this is one area where the blogosphere could actually prove quite powerful. Ten years ago, I'm not sure there was anywhere that your average Christian American was exposed to openly atheistic viewpoints. These days, I'm constantly amazed how many prominent bloggers profess their atheism on a daily basis. On the list, with the help of The Raving Atheist: Daily Kos, Washington Monthly, The Volokh Conspiracy (Jim Lindgren), Pharyngula, Daily Pundit, onegoodmove, Matthew Yglesias, Vodkapundit, and of course many others, including me. Notably, many of these have substantial conservative readership.
Of course, the average American still may not tune in to these atheist blogs, but a lot of people do. A lot more than used to face proud, open, secularism a few years ago. And since most of the hostility toward atheists, in my view, is based in the fact that so few people feel they know any, this could well start to have a dramatic effect. The informal nature of blogs, revealing much of a blogger's character and personality, has the potential to be quite powerful in this regard.
Unfortunately, I read that just after reading about the absurd War on Christians, and just before Nic mentioned an article on Pensacola Christian College (that's the Chronicle of Higher Ed…I'm not sure if the link will work for machines without an institutional subscription) to me. We godless have a long way to go when we live in a culture in which many people can accept these absurdities:
Lisa Morris was walking to class with her boyfriend last October when something happened. At first Ms. Morris, a sophomore music major, is reluctant to divulge the details. Eventually, however, the truth comes out: He patted her behind.
Someone who witnessed the incident reported Ms. Morris and her boyfriend. At Pensacola any physical contact between members of the opposite sex is forbidden. (Members of the same sex may touch, although the college condemns homosexuality.) The forbidden contact includes shaking hands and definitely includes patting behinds. Both students were expelled.
Of Pensacola's many rules, those dealing with male-female relationships are the most talked about. There are restrictions on when and where men and women may speak to each other. Some elevators and stairwells may be used only by women; others may be used only by men. Socializing on particular benches is forbidden. If a man and a woman are walking to class, they may chat; if they stop en route, though, they may be in trouble. Generally men and women caught interacting in any "unchaperoned area" — which is most of the campus — could be subject to severe penalties.
Those rules extend beyond the campus. A man and a woman cannot go to an off-campus restaurant together without a chaperon (usually a faculty member). Even running into members of the opposite sex off campus can lead to punishment. One student told of how a group of men and a group of women from the college happened to meet at a McDonald's last spring. Both groups were returning from the beach (they had gone to separate beaches; men and women are not allowed to be at the beach together). The administration found out, and all 15 students were expelled.
Even couples who are not talking or touching can be reprimanded. Sabrina Poirier, a student at Pensacola who withdrew in 1997, was disciplined for what is known on the campus as "optical intercourse" — staring too intently into the eyes of a member of the opposite sex. This is also referred to as "making eye babies." While the rule does not appear in written form, most students interviewed for this article were familiar with the concept.
Everything is that tight-laced.
There are plenty of other ways to run afoul of the rules. Last spring Timothy Dow was caught playing the video game Halo 2. Such games are banned by the college. Movies are also forbidden, including those rated G. Music is restricted to classical or approved Christian ("contemporary Christian" artists are deemed too worldly). Students are allowed to watch television news at 6 o'clock, but that's it. The TVs are controlled by college employees, who flip a switch to black out the commercials, lest students see anything inappropriate.
In the library, books and magazines are censored. One student says she saw a pair of black-marker boxer shorts on a photograph of Michelangelo's David. Any books that students wish to read that are not in the library must first be approved by administrators. Those containing references to "magic," for instance, are normally rejected. The rule book specifically prohibits "fleshly magazines and books."
In addition, access to the net is tightly restricted to only a few sites. Somehow, I don't think us atheist bloggers are on their list.
Worse still, the college is not accredited. Think about that: these kids are going off to this school that is run like a concentration camp, suffering for four years, and then 'graduating' with a degree that is almost completely worthless, and with credits that won't transfer to any other university. It's hard to blame the kids—few 18 year olds are aware of the concept of accrediting bodies—but that fact makes the administrators simply evil. Here's this sad sack kid who thought the restrictive rules were good for him, but also believes he's going to go to dental school:
Mr. Ghobrial, the student from Egypt who doesn't mind the rules, wants to attend dental school. His first choice, West Virginia University, has already said it would not consider his application, because Pensacola is not accredited. "I'm hoping they change their minds," he says.
"I'm hoping they change their minds." Jebus. The poor guy has had four years of expert training in delusional thinking. What kind of job is that going to get him? About all he is qualified for is President of the US.
It's nice to know that a lot of prominent bloggers are god-free and proud of it, but I doubt that the people who need the information most are never going to see it. There are 5000 students at PCC. Every one has been sold a bill of goods…and it was easy. Their parents, their communities, their whole culture tells them that these con-artists are good, as long as they're preaching about Jesus. How are we going to fight that?
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Comments
Would I be right in guessing there are few (if any) examples of schools being retroactively accredited, with their alumni suddenly having their degrees upgraded to something above junk status?
Posted by: just john | March 29, 2006 2:57 PM
Isn't Pensacola where our good buddy Kent Hovind has set up shop?
Posted by: NJ | March 29, 2006 2:59 PM
"Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for." -Some guy.
Posted by: BronzeDog | March 29, 2006 2:59 PM
Actually, PZ, if he's from Egypt, that's one of the few things that actually DISqualifies him for the job of the Presidency. Oh, the irony!
Posted by: Opiwan | March 29, 2006 3:01 PM
"How are we going to fight that?"
Why would we fight that? PCC repressents the extreme end of a spectrum of religious delusional institutions. Any effort put into changing minds at such a place is up against such an obstactle, it seems unlikely that any progress could be made there.
At the other end of the spectrum, or perhaps just nearer the middle, are lots and lots of other religious colleges. Presumably even the hard-core fundie places pretend to have science faculty, and thus provide an opening to discussion of critical thinking and what words like "evidence" or "theory" mean to scientists.
I have encountered Christians who believe that converting the heathen is one of the most important things they can do. They have a heirarchy of difficulty and consequently of bonus points for converting various other people: other christian, protestant demoninations aren't worth much, Catholics a bit more, but Jews and Atheists are worth the most (nice to get some respect, even if it's backhanded).
My point is, why should Atheists be copying such a heirarchy? "Converting" a born-again YEC True-Believer to Atheism (bad choice of vocab, sorry) shouldn't be worth any more to you or to me than convincing a person who says grace over dinner twice a year that they're wasting their time.
Apologies for length. I got to be first commenter!
Posted by: The Brummell | March 29, 2006 3:06 PM
OK, I'm not the first commenter. D'oh!
I took so long writing the long-winded above, I dropped ranks.
Posted by: The Brummell | March 29, 2006 3:07 PM
The more visible atheists become, the more effectively they will serve as boogeymen for anti-atheist Christian types (e.g., "Look at all the pro-gay and pro-abortion stuff on those atheist sites!").
This will remain true until it becomes clear that the anti-atheist Christian types have their heads up their asses, i.e., when atheists become "normalized."
I think this may occur in my lifetime, actually, although probably close to the end of it. But a few stupid ass decisions from the Supreme Court could slow this process down somewhat.
Posted by: Great White Wonder | March 29, 2006 3:08 PM
I'm shocked at their indifferent attitude to eye-baby abortions.
Posted by: Zac | March 29, 2006 3:14 PM
Dumb question number one: Why in the world does this country have colleges that are not accredited?
Dumb question number two: How does Pensacola Christian College enforce the rule (I assume they have one) against men who engage in "breast intercourse" with a member of the opposite sex, a.k.a. "making boob babies"? I'm sure that's a bigger [whoops] problem.
Posted by: Kristine | March 29, 2006 3:17 PM
Posted by: wamba | March 29, 2006 3:18 PM
"Making eye babies."
Making eye babies.
MAKING. EYE. BABIES.
I cannot even begin to unravel the sort of twisted thinking that could lead to such a concept. They ban books with magic in them? Their entire thinking is magical! A world full of demons and spirits and genies and EYE BABIES -- it is a terrifying world that probably makes little sense to those raised in it from birth. No wonder they cling so tenaciously to the Bible -- it probably makes the most sense of all the crazy garbage they believe, and is something relatively solid to cling to.
This is several levels deeper than brainwashing; they turn the world into some kind of crazy, surreal carnival where nothing is as it seems and everything is at the whim of invisible spirits. No doubt they believe gravity could be revoked at any second if some demon got too uppity.
Posted by: minimalist | March 29, 2006 3:21 PM
It's hard to be visible to the Christians and not be demonized, since they see us and are aware of us the most when we are defending ourselves from their religious dogma. For instance, if I try to prevent my daughter from being forced to pray in school, *that's* when the Christians will notice me, and accuse me of attacking Baby Jesus. We need an Atheist Day when everyone engages in a public act of charity with no hope of posthumous reward.
Posted by: aiabx | March 29, 2006 3:21 PM
ummm....I attended that college from 1990-1991. I went only one year and only could stand it because I had been raised in a VERY strict fundamentalist (sort of pentacostal holiness) home, but even I had to leave it for the relative freedom of my parents home. Following rules and doing what you were told was the peak of academic achievement. We had assigned seating for dinner with a designated senior taking attendance, mandatory daily chapel (with attendance taking), 11pm curfew (with room check), etc. Fear and zero intolerance for opposing views was the only way they could control a campus full of 18-23yr olds.
Posted by: Paul | March 29, 2006 3:23 PM
Ahahahaha eye babies!
Seriously, though, that place sounds like a frakkin' nightmare. The lack of privacy, the lack of freedom.
aiabx, I really like the Atheist Day idea and may even recommend it to my club.
Posted by: A Pang | March 29, 2006 3:30 PM
"making eye babies."
What if you smell someone of the opposite sex too long.
Making nose babies. Ugh. That's scary.
...Ear babies.
I can't wait for Rick Scarborough's oral treatise on Eye Babies.
Posted by: bigdumbchimp | March 29, 2006 3:34 PM
Kristine-
I can only assume that breast intercourse is permissible because the women won't actively enjoy it and turn into satanic sluts.
Does anyone else think "Khmer Rouge" when they hear about this kind of thought control nonsense?
Posted by: aiabx | March 29, 2006 3:35 PM
The Brummell: I think it's more the case that brainwashed fundies (like most of these kids are likely to become) have historically represented the biggest physical and political threat to atheists' rights. It's enlightened self-interest - the more we "convert" now, the lower the chance of atheism being a lynching offence forty years down the line.
The guy who says grace over dinner twice a year ain't so likely to join in the lynch mob (theoretically anyway).
Posted by: Corkscrew | March 29, 2006 3:36 PM
Opiwan: I'm sure Arnold and his friends are working on that limitation...
Posted by: Joe Shelby | March 29, 2006 3:38 PM
All these self righteous christians should be forced to read the great christian theologian Hans Christian Andersen. In Andersen's fairy tales Self-Righteous christian gets skewered. In one of the stories one of them is forced by the angel of death to walk thru the forest where their hypocrisy and inner-evil is revealed. When this sinner arrive at the gate of heaven, he realizes he is not worthy to enter its gates, at which point the gate of heaven opens. Andersen is a very christian person, and his very christianity allowed him to see what BS these fundie types are. Course he believes in universal salvation a concept foreign to those fundamentalist type today.
Posted by: Jianying | March 29, 2006 3:41 PM
Sometimes I arrogantly think nothing can surprise me anymore. Then something like this comes along and the underside of my jaw gets pieces of shattered floor tile embedded in it for the thousandth time.
This isn't a college, this is a cult.
How on earth do they get 5,000 students in this day and age? I grew up in the Midwest and knew a fair number of Christian conservatives of the rather prissy variety (admittedly, few real hardcore ones), and I can't think of one who wouldn't think this place sounded like a loony bin.
On the broader subject of this post, I definitely think that atheism/agnosticism is gaining ground in respectability and visibility in our culture. It's just a question of how much more long-term damage the fundies can do before they're finally marginalized (which will be a long time coming yet).
Posted by: Michael Wells | March 29, 2006 3:45 PM
Posted by: wamba | March 29, 2006 3:47 PM
Just saw ajabx's comment, actually PCC is more like Franco's spain. Remember Opus Dei ran the education ministry.
Posted by: jianying | March 29, 2006 3:48 PM
It depends what you mean by "visible." If you mean that as atheists come out of the woodwork and people meet them and learn about them, then it's going to be just the opposite. People will stop swallowing the BS about atheists being "immoral."
That could cause a HUGE generational gap between Christian youths and their parents. Then again, like The Brummell alluded to, there is the extreme spectrum that will go to places like PCC. There will always be extremes.
Posted by: Jeremy | March 29, 2006 3:50 PM
No doubt the PCC cafeteria serves kool-aid and the PCC armory is well stocked.
Posted by: vagodin | March 29, 2006 3:57 PM
I'd love to know what the graduates do after graduation. How are they employable? What kind of skills do they have? Is there an alumni organization that places graduates in suitable environments?
wow. just wow. eye babies!
Posted by: Francis | March 29, 2006 4:00 PM
"My point is, why should Atheists be copying such a heirarchy? "Converting" a born-again YEC True-Believer to Atheism (bad choice of vocab, sorry) shouldn't be worth any more to you or to me than convincing a person who says grace over dinner twice a year that they're wasting their time."
Not really a disagreement here, just an observation... for most other atheists that I have met, their pre-atheist beliefs largely mirror the sort of atheist they become. The lifelong, second (or more) generation atheists I've met generally are the less vocal, more easygoing ones, along with the ones who were, at best, only semi-religious before. The ones who were rather religious (such as myself) tend to be a bit harder-edged, and if you want to see a real fire-breathing atheist, look for the former fundie atheists.
Naturally there are exceptions (I've never heard that Dawkins was religious in his youth), but that does seem to be the rule from what I've observed.
Posted by: MJ Memphis | March 29, 2006 4:04 PM
I was afraid you were going to say that a place like that was accredited. That they aren't shows that at least the accrediting bodies have some standards.
Now in some states, a place like that wouldn't even be able to call itself a college or university, and would have to resort to more generic terms like "school", "academy", or "learning institution". It is a pity Florida is apparently not one of those states.
Posted by: Daniel Martin | March 29, 2006 4:05 PM
Wonder if they believe in vaccinations, too.
I mean, would it be such a horrible thing if there was an outbreak of mumps on campus that rendered each and every one of them sterile?
Posted by: Benzene | March 29, 2006 4:06 PM
"I'd love to know what the graduates do after graduation. How are they employable? What kind of skills do they have? Is there an alumni organization that places graduates in suitable environments?"
Well, duh, someone has to staff all those Republican "think"-tanks.
Posted by: MJ Memphis | March 29, 2006 4:06 PM
Nah, ignore that. Even I feel bad about wishing mumps on people. But the idea of them being out of the gene pool isn't bad.
Posted by: Benzene | March 29, 2006 4:07 PM
Paying thousands of dollars for four years in a concentration camp where you live in terror of babies falling from your eyes? No wonder these folks are so mad all the time.
Of course, they can't be angry at the folks who conned them, what with the wrath and the smiting and eternal hellfire and all, so that anger and frustration gets redirected toward ruining things for the godless heathens who actually have a little freedom and pleasure in their lives. It's actually kind of ingeneous if you think about it.
Posted by: Justin K. | March 29, 2006 4:09 PM
Talk about hitting the nail on the head. A place that snuffs out any rebellion and free speech whatsoever? A program like this can't be expected to turn out anything BUT cultists. Jesus H. Christ, if I have a bad dream, am I going to be expelled?!
Posted by: Jeremy | March 29, 2006 4:11 PM
Actually the description of PCC chears me up a little. Half of my siblings went to Ricks College (aka BYU Idaho) and now I see how much worse things can be. At least their choice of schools was accreditted. It also has slightly less strict rules about interaction between the sexes, since the whole point is to be married before you graduate. In that way PCC seems to fail as an insular, controlling religious school -- attendees really should leave with a similarly brainwashed mate to get their money's worth.
Posted by: JP | March 29, 2006 4:13 PM
Thanks for the feedback, Corkscrew and MJ Memphis. It's nice to operate under the impression that other people are reading something I wrote (first paper still "in press" right now... supervisor cheerfully admits to never actually reading it in final form).
Anyways, I agree with Corkscrew that the hard-core fundies are probably the greatest threat to secular society (church-state separation) in general and atheists in particular, but I don't think it's actually *possible* to "convert" any significant fraction of that group. I've seen comparisons between Fundamental Religion (of any variety) and paranoia - the only thing you have to keep track of is instead of "The Government" or "Big Pharma" (or whatever) the Conspiracy is run by Satan. So any time an atheist (or anyone, really) shows up and says "please just think about this for 5 minutes, OK?", the fundie can assume this person is an agent of Satan and should be either ignored or attacked. After all, the best way into heaven is on the piled corpses of Satan's minions, right?
More apologies for length, I'm procrastinating before I do obnoxious lab work (too much PCR! aaaaaaaaaa....)
Posted by: The Brummell | March 29, 2006 4:18 PM
"Why in the world does this country have colleges that are not accredited?"
It's called "free enterprise". AFAIK, there is nothing to stop any loon or charlatan (and people like Hovind are both) from incorporating a business with a name including the word "college" or "school" or "university", offering to teach whatever BS they please, and accepting the money of consenting adults (or their parents) to come there and be dis-educated. Same as how you can buy toilet-paper Ph.D's by mail-order, for little or no real work -- but that's not too far from how "Dr. Dino" Hovind got his, is it? (Not to mention "Rev. Dr." Gasbag from t.o.)
(For some reason, this is more prevalent in the US that in Canada)
Speaking of t.o, googling for "Pensacola" in back-posts turns up more stories of the place.
Posted by: lt.kizhe | March 29, 2006 4:18 PM
Jeez, that is scary. At least here in the UK only bodies given Royal (read: government) assent can be called universities. Having said that, here in Scotland, out of the four ancient universities (all 500+ years old), only Edinburgh wasn't found by Papal Bull- instead, founded by the city fathers, and hence not religious (though we do have a faculty of divinity. You may have heard of one of the former students, surname Darwin?).
Posted by: Al | March 29, 2006 4:19 PM
As an undergrad, I knew a guy whose girlfriend went to PCC. She got in trouble because she had a picture of them holding hands in her dorm room.
Posted by: Reed A. Cartwright | March 29, 2006 4:22 PM
About the optimism,
when I was at school there was hardly anyone openly gay, either in my village or in the media.
This has changed a lot in 25 years, so it is well possible the acceptance of atheism will come too.
Posted by: robd | March 29, 2006 4:25 PM
Damn, and I thought Bob Jones University was the worst of the Christan schools. I really do wonder what happens to these kids. Many are home-schooled and then they get sent somewhere like that. Really, it makes my South Carolina public school/ College of Charleston education seem amazing by comparison.
Posted by: Meri | March 29, 2006 4:25 PM
Their admissions requirements page has an interesting item on the application checklist: 2. Attach a recent photograph. Now why might they need that? To make sure you look like a good Christian?
Hmmmm. I wonder what they think a good Christian looks like.
Posted by: ben | March 29, 2006 4:29 PM
"The TVs are controlled by college employees, who flip a switch to black out the commercials, lest students see anything inappropriate."
Isn't that stealing?
Just a note: Bashing Christians in general is bad because that is a very diverse set of people many of whom are allies or potential allies. Always remember the truely scary (fundamentalist) christians are a minority. Bashing Christians in general interferes with gods task of driving a wedge between them and the rest of Christianity.
Posted by: gibbon | March 29, 2006 4:29 PM
"Optical intercourse??!!!" That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard (with the possible exception of "eye babies"). I would comment further but it's hard to type and wipe the tears of hysterical laughter from my eyes at the same time!!
Posted by: Kelley | March 29, 2006 4:30 PM
ARRRGGHHHHH.
The CSA must be after me!! How many Eye-babies have I fathered? Probably thousands. I hope I'm eye-impotent!
Posted by: Rich | March 29, 2006 4:32 PM
I hate to Godwin the comments thread, but I just came across this in the article.
Hitler Youth, anybody?
Posted by: Jeremy | March 29, 2006 4:34 PM
Al, wasn't Darwin a medical student at Edinburgh? His Divinity studies were at Cambridge, after he dropped out due to finding the human dissections revolting.
Posted by: MissPrism | March 29, 2006 4:44 PM
However ill intentioned, I'd say the informant did them both a huge favor.
Oh, and the obligatory reference seems appropriate here...
If you doubt the existence of EYE BABIES, how do you explain PYGMIES + DWARFS??????
sorry... :-)
Posted by: Bored Huge Krill | March 29, 2006 4:46 PM
The Taliban has left Afghanistan and moved to Pensacola ... Who woulda thunk?
Posted by: wheatdogg | March 29, 2006 4:47 PM
This must be illegal. This is cruel!
Posted by: Jeremy | March 29, 2006 4:50 PM
Ben asks "2. Attach a recent photograph. Now why might they need that? To make sure you look like a good Christian?
Hmmmm. I wonder what they think a good Christian looks like."
I suspect they think a good Christian is white and has no visbile scars or deformaties, tattoos, piercing, unsuitably long hair on males or short hair on females, inappropriate clothing etc. Added points if the picture shows someone that is already incapable of critical thought but I am not sure how that shows in a photo, perhaps the dean of admissions posts the pics in his/her bedroom and prays on them. Makes as much sense as any of the other crazy stuff the loonier xians do.
And of course they are encouraged to inform on one another, their religion is based on fear.
Posted by: CanuckRob | March 29, 2006 4:53 PM
If y'all want more horror stories about PCC, here's an informative website:
The Student Voice at Pensacola Christian College
It's an underground newspaper published by a former student, and includes a thorough discussion of some of the more overtly Orwellian rules, such as how students must sign out upon leaving campus and state their destination, from a list of approved destinations. (Public libraries are forbidden, for example, as are other colleges in the vicinity. Also, no groups of more than 20 students may meet off-campus for any reason, even at one of the "approved" destinations.) It also discusses the punishments for breaking these rules, of which "shadowing" is a particularly chilling example.
Posted by: Ebonmuse | March 29, 2006 4:56 PM
IIRC, PCC will expel any student who speaks in tongues.
Posted by: Reed A. Cartwright | March 29, 2006 5:00 PM
Often, you have to attach a photo to prompt interviewers' memories of who you were, or for administrative purposes after you get in. We had to send photos in our applications for my university, for the interview reason.
Posted by: Rosie | March 29, 2006 5:04 PM
Bloggers who are not writing atheist or political blogs also include atheists. I have a knitting blog and I openly talk about being an atheist. I wish that more "regular" people who are non-believers would come out. You don't have to be an atheist evangelist or a left-wing political pundit to be out about your atheism.
Think about it, those of you who read blogs like this but who are in the closet about your own non-belief.
Posted by: wriiterdd | March 29, 2006 5:08 PM
"You may not allow the end of your belt to hang down from the belt-loops resembling a phallus."
http://www.pensacolachristiancollege.com/rules.htm#THE%20RULES.
No further comment is required.
Posted by: Jim | March 29, 2006 5:15 PM
I doubt that the female students there are allowed to wear any kind of clothes that makes "mammarian intercourse" to happen...more something burka-like, I guess.
My offline friends and family are so worried because the word atheist is right up top on the subheading of my blog (why are they not bothered by the other words there, e.g., liberal, Jewish, Serbian?).
But, just like emergence of gays changed the general perception of them, I think that greater visibility of atheist can only have a positive effect.
Posted by: coturnix | March 29, 2006 5:20 PM
Hmm, Stanford, that rather bucolic institution of higher learning located on a former farm in the Bay Area, way out in the Wild West, somehow manages to recruit its freshman class each year WITHOUT relying on a photograph or personal interview.
But then, its students are laboring under a major handicap--it's accredited.
Posted by: Steviepinhead | March 29, 2006 5:23 PM
Someone witnessed the exchange and turned Mr. Dow in. Students routinely turn each other in for violating rules and are rewarded by the administration for doing so. According to several former students, those who report classmates are more likely to become floor leaders.
Hitler Youth, anybody?
Actually it reminded me of the Young Pioneers and their hero Pavlik Morozov.
Posted by: Sean Foley | March 29, 2006 5:34 PM
It's probably good that atheists are rising in the ranks of the distrusted. First it was blacks, then gays, now atheists. While neither blacks nor gays are universilly accepted, "tolerence" (ugh, we shouldn't need tolerence for race or sex) for both is much better in the US now than it was say 50 years ago. There will always be jerks, but in another 50 years gay marriage will be a total nonissue, and as accepted as interracial marriages are now. And the more atheists are demonized, the more acceptance they'll find from mainstream americans.
Posted by: Mike | March 29, 2006 5:51 PM
I meant to say "eye-boob babies." (His eyes gazing at hers...) But another question: What about "thought babies"? Is it right for a good Christian boy at Pensacola to like a girl for her mind, rather than the purity of her soul? After all, I was taught that we shouldn't worship our intellects, and all that.
Oh great, watch this cult now impose choosing one's spouse by lottery.
Posted by: Kristine | March 29, 2006 6:02 PM
"You may not wipe 'boogers' on the wall. This is being cracked down on."
Actually, the 'boogers' are in the administration, not on the wall.
can't.... stop.... laughing.....
Posted by: Kevin Bryant | March 29, 2006 6:03 PM
"I'm hoping they change their minds," he says.
I'll pray for you, man.
The "making eye babies" got me laughing (and can you be accused of "optical rape"?) Reminded me of the old Superman TV show (George Reeves) episode where Jimmy and Lois are jailed for trumped up reasons and Jimmy can't get Clark to take him seriously until he says, "and he's making goo-goo eyes at Lois", to which Clark reacts sharply, "He'd doing WHAT!? I'm on my way." Thing is, they knew it was camp back then, and 40 years later these poor saps haven't a clue.
I do agree that the online community is likely to be the first place many people meet a self-professed, open atheist, and that is the first step to understanding and accepting. (It usually goes through the "oh, he's all right, but I mean atheists.. you know" stage too. Watch for it.)
Posted by: QrazyQat | March 29, 2006 6:27 PM
"You may not allow the end of your belt to hang down from the belt-loops resembling a phallus."
But, may I allow the end of my belt to hang down and not resemble a phallus?
Posted by: ben | March 29, 2006 6:29 PM
Doesn't seem to be commented on in the article, but I wonder if the lack of accreditation actually works with the tyrannical rules: there must be more fear of expulsion, since one can't transfer credits elsewhere. Perhaps it helps keeps people trapped.
Posted by: Stephen Frug | March 29, 2006 6:32 PM
No, someone does mention it. Oops.
Posted by: Stephen Frug | March 29, 2006 6:39 PM
I disagree with the entire analysis implicit it what everyone has said up to this point except, of course, that it's thoroughly disgusting. And the humor.
And PZ-- I can definately explain how not to fight it, how to guarantee failure -- misdefine the problem, the opposition, the arena, the strategy and tactics you're up against, and the tools necessary to prevail.
So far everybody, jokesters aside, is advocating/analyzing some variation of those. Here's a portion of a post to Hipster Dodos I sent Carl Zimmer who's snowed under writing. Don't know know if the thread's closed or suspended, and hope it's not bad form to quote oneself. [Context -- scientist need media analysis and training available at various meetings.]
The kids at the college are simply future cannon fodder. Assigned meal seating sound like West Point?We must go after the general staff, guys, waaaaay to the rear. The strategists. The raddical right has to do this -- it's the only way they can get enough votes to stay in power. Deconstruct their strategy and tactics, then counter them -- the only workable option.
Short example: the more visible athiests become.... The generals will create that "visibility" if necessary.
For the generals it's one thing -- producing voters in voting booths casting ballots. Therefrom derives immense power.
[If this is a waste of space, tell me.]
Posted by: SkookumPlanet | March 29, 2006 6:47 PM
And what exactly do you propose to do? Have the atheists hide, so they don't rouse the Beast?
Posted by: PZ Myers | March 29, 2006 7:00 PM
Holy crap! Literally!
I want to go to this college and get arrested for trespassing. Honestly. I want to go there, wearing an obscene T-shirt, yelling about drugs, sex and rock and roll. I mean... it would be the high point of my entire life.
Posted by: Frito | March 29, 2006 7:24 PM
The informal nature of blogs, revealing much of a blogger's character and personality, has the potential to be quite powerful in this regard. . .
Boy, you got that right. Nothing like a refreshing visit to that places like the DailyKos, or that fine atheist standby Pharyngula and see Mr. Myers show how the atheists are so much more civilized than those benighted Christians.
Name-calling, ad hominem argument, minds more closed than any Fundmentalist Christian I have ever met. . .yep. Atheism sounds like the way to go for me.
Posted by: demoman | March 29, 2006 7:33 PM
PZ -- That's why I asked about accreditation the way I did, especially if recruits are led to believe that this place's degree counts in the real world. To me, it sounds like there's some potential fraud going on here, and I think that would be the best tack to take, if you really want to take them on.
Posted by: just john | March 29, 2006 7:36 PM
Brummell wrote: They have a heirarchy of difficulty and consequently of bonus points for converting various other people: other christian, protestant demoninations aren't worth much, Catholics a bit more, but Jews and Atheists are worth the most
From my personal experience Muslims are at the top of the list for most Christian evangelicals. Because of my name everyone assumes at once I am a Muslim. The evangelicals can't help themselves and sets upon the task of trying to convert me. When it is pointed out that I am an atheist most of them are not so eager to debate me. I guess the reason is that it is easier to convert someone who already believes in a god than to convince someone that there is a god.
Posted by: shaker | March 29, 2006 7:45 PM
If the grads are getting jobs with other Christians, then the accreditation issue probably never comes up.
The school is a private institution, and apparently takes no public monies. Sadly, if kids are going there willingly, there's not much we can do about it. As they say, it's a free country.
The remarks about eye-babies have me wondering how many I have "fathered" over the last four decades. Yikes. I hope they never come asking for money ... Hey, dad, I'm eye-child #403. Can I have $20?
Posted by: wheatdogg | March 29, 2006 8:01 PM
Do they mean nose boogers or eye boogers? If the latter, maybe it's a form of birth control.
Posted by: Molly, NYC | March 29, 2006 8:23 PM
The lifelong, second (or more) generation atheists I've met generally are the less vocal, more easygoing ones,
Let me say, as one of those multi-generation atheists, that I've gotten a *lot* less easy-going as these twats have gotten more pushy.
Posted by: Graculus | March 29, 2006 8:42 PM
Hmmmmm...do you mean to tell me you don't run into name-calling and ad homininem pretty much *everywhere you go across the spectrum*?! It ain't *all* PZ Myers stickin to his guns about religion being, by gum, a bad thing in general. In fact that PZ Myers guy seems pretty mild-mannered to me, though stubborn, of course.
I don't know why PZ seems to attract these sensitive souls. Repeated arguments about not alienating the moderate Christians, about not being so confrontational, about being more "open-minded"...what gives?
Posted by: Shell | March 29, 2006 8:52 PM
Pensacola Christian College produces textbooks for Christian schools and homeschoolers under the name "A Beka Books." I was homeschooled with their textbooks and believed the full crock of bull. The only problem was I kept feeling a niggling sense of doubt.
You can read my story here:
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/ec31b043505eee55?as_umsgid=Kadhe.7724$i03.3502@fe06.lga
Posted by: Jeff | March 29, 2006 8:56 PM
Patrick Henry College in Virginia is the same deal. Run by one Michael Farris, a major mover in the home schooling association. At PHC, dating is not allowed, only courtship with a view towards marriage. If a guy wants to court a girl, he has to write a letter to the girl's family and get permission. While courting, the only thing you can do is hold hands WHILE WALKING. Holding hands while standing still is forbidden. The school is not accredited, and teaches that evolution is incorrect.
Posted by: Peter | March 29, 2006 9:01 PM
No PZ, not at all! "Deconstruct their strategy and tactics, then counter them -- the only workable option."
My point is, the weapon has to be pointed at the right target. And, we could do it just as skillfully as they do but right now the entire left is having circles run around it. Nobody get's it.
The solution actually lays in using scientific methodology. That's exactly what they are doing. My observations tell me our side doesn't believe there's anything there, that there's anything to apply science to. If so, that's incorrect. Another self quote.
Strategy is for the professionals to figure out, not me. Not you.
I'm late for dinner at a friend's. I haven't read past your immediate comment. I'll do so later. Feel free to pile on while I'm gone -- as if you guys needed permission.
Posted by: SkookumPlanet | March 29, 2006 9:07 PM
"Do they mean nose boogers or eye boogers?" Jesus, Molly, I gotta remember not to be drinking anything while reading your comments, 'cause I nearly laugh-spewed red wine this time.
"I want to go to this college and get arrested for trespassing..." Let's have an "eye-baby sit-in." Let's do it. I'm game.
Posted by: Kristine | March 29, 2006 9:10 PM
I don't have a blog but I do spend a fair bit of time on a Christian message board at Crosswalk.com. There's a fair bit of debate about origins, politics, and atheism all conducted in a reasonable convivial fashion (unlike FreeRepublic, for example!).
There are, of course, many wild misconceptions about atheists and atheism in general--we're all supposedly sad, depressed, hopeless, mean-spirited, and ready to rape and pillage as soon as God is proved not to exist!
I doubt I have changed many minds on the board but it is a chance to dispel some of the more ridiculous myths about atheism and at least those browsing the forums get to see b