Pharyngula

They ARE demented fuckwits!

Posted by: Jeff Matzke | July 15, 2006 9:30 AM

Shygetz, this was exactly the group of people PZ was talking about in his demented fuckwitz post, where some people took him to task for it.

Posted by: Kristjan Wager | July 15, 2006 9:34 AM

PZ is justified in conflating whacko religions and 'the least offensive ones' (even though he's not doing that here) because they're all cut from the same cloth: worldviews based on superstitious hooey. So what if Quakers or Unitarians are inoffensive? (God bless 'em for that.) They're still delusional, if not dangerous.

Posted by: Manson's Cellmate | July 15, 2006 9:52 AM

Goddamit that totally spoiled my Saturday morning happiness PZ.

Posted by: DarkSyde | July 15, 2006 9:58 AM

> Quakers, Unitarians, delusional

Objection. I don't think American UUs have (as a whole) enough belief to be called delusional, or much else apart from liberalish. Some will believe in God, or "something", others will be atheists in it for the social benefits. The point of modern UU is that you can *call* yourself an atheist and still hang out, while I imagine even Episcopalians might look at you funny.

Posted by: Damien | July 15, 2006 10:11 AM

Damien, you're quite right: not all UUs are delusional. Many -- I think most -- are.

Posted by: Manson's Cellmate | July 15, 2006 10:25 AM

i'll cut in here like a dull steak knife to shamelessly promote my latest blog pic....kinda puts things in perspective from my viewpoint......

Posted by: scout | July 15, 2006 10:37 AM

I've little doubt that what's most pertinent here is whatever social psychologists can tell us about the cathartic release of wargasms, the culmination of a long repetitive exposure to the delicious pornography of "us/them" (and military fantasies such as Gog/Magog, whatever).

For an entirely different perspective, Bill Moyer's recent interview with Anne Provoost on his 'Faith & Reason' show was wonderful. She's an author of children's books whose themes include the favoritism of god, why some are "us" and others aren't - and what happens to those left behind, as in the mass of people and animals drowned outside Noah's ark. Children can understand this, and that many children perished too - innocently.

These are half-hour interviews, available online at his website, pbs.org/moyers/watch.html

Posted by: thwaite | July 15, 2006 10:56 AM

PZ,

Here's a little something that may halp salvage your ruined morning. via onegoodmove.

Posted by: CJ | July 15, 2006 11:02 AM

Well, a religious belief is pretty much delusional by definition - it is belief in the abscence of proof after all.

And the deafening silence of "moderate religious people" and their leaders not stampeding to distance themselves from these fascist nutcases is pretty telling.

Posted by: Janne | July 15, 2006 11:06 AM

Yup. They are simply taking the mickey out of views that they find incomprehensible, and expressing a certain amount of wish fulfilment whilst showing some awareness that it is exactly wishes that are concerned.

Whereas a forum that has a section dedicated thus:
"The Birth Pangs of Matthew 24 News covering health, weather, natural disasters, declining morality and corrupt spirituality. Jesus warned us that the degradation of society would happen in the end days. Our member involvement often makes this news source faster than the mainstream sources!"

and has to post guidance for threads on Bird flu, is by the standards of many, many people, insane. Of course, if the rapture happens, I will happily change my mind about it all. But given that the whole rapture thing is based upon selective and biased reading of some of thebible, not to mention miscounting of biblical weeks etc etc, it is likely junk.

Posted by: guthrie | July 15, 2006 11:25 AM

From that forum:

"I am excited beyond words that the struggle of this life may be over soon and I can finally be FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!"

...J.P. Sartre rolls over in his grave.

Posted by: Doug | July 15, 2006 11:48 AM

When I read Professor Myers' remark that the real problem is all those 'craven Christians' unafraid to call a spade a spade, I nod my head knowingly but with distaste. I don't like to admit it, but what he's saying is really true. Radical atheists are not the problem. It is the churches in America, increasingly fundamentalist, ahistorical and isolated from reality, that are the problem.

Are radical atheists rubbing their hands together with glee about the impending end of all things, advertising their deep hatred of the world, including the natural world? Are radical atheists increasingly coopted by one political party, and led to falsely equate their faith in God with an allegiance to corporate interests? Are radical atheists eroding our civil liberties in the name of security?

I could go on, but I think we get the point. As a Christian, I have met the enemy, and like Pogo, I've found out it's "us." This forum is not a classroom or a church and PZ says things here that are essentially personal, not formal policy statements, and they should be viewed in that light. I coming to the conclusion that it's a waste of my time to fret endlessly as to whether this or that atheist view is responsible or fair to religion, etc. PZ doesn't really care if it's 'fair', so why should we?

Instead, I think believers need to be bolder and engage fellow believers. That includes condemnation, for many of these so-called 'Christians' need to have their views publicly condemned. If we were doing our job, the various right-wing cottage industries now flourishing in the evangelical churches would not have much of a foothold. Jason, if you're a believer, consider this an exhortation to take the skeptical critique of the churches as such, rather than as an assault on our personal beliefs. Why are we here, if not to eat meat, rather than milk?

Scott

Posted by: Scott Hatfield | July 15, 2006 11:59 AM

I agree with Janne ("these fascist nutcases"). Every time I see the Pope, in that big pointy hat, I want to giggle, but I also think: this guy has a brain, he is well-educated, and yet he has made a conscious decision to take a position that allows him to control and brainwash millions and millions of people because he believes a bunch of claptrap written two thousand years ago and feels it is acceptable to impose those beliefs on others. It's a form of fascism.

Religion might do all the good in the world for people, but if it is based on a lie, what have you got?

Posted by: George | July 15, 2006 12:11 PM

All you rapture unready folks better take your summers vacations while you can. The rapture is acomin':

My DH I have talked aboout the speed of things happening so fast,it's exciting to see all this come about. We're suppose to leave next week for vacation DH staed we may not have much longer to worry with gas prices, and every thing else. Even so Lord Jesus come quickly! [comment on RR site]

I think this is really IT - there has been no other time in history that lines up so exact with the end times prophecies. I am having a hard time grasping the fact that we could LITERALLY be raptured at any moment and it's getting harder to "Occupy" my time and do my work, so I pray that either this is it or God will help me stay focused on my work until He comes. [comment on RR]

Posted by: Wrapt up in the Rapture (a.k.a. George) | July 15, 2006 1:03 PM

We should think more carefully about what we mean when we say people are deluded, or that some are more delusional than others when we talk about sane vs. "wacko" Christians.

The nature of belief is more complex than these threads suggest. For example, when you look at a person who calls themselves Christian but isn't frothingly awaiting Armageddon &mdash a "sane" Christian &mdash you are seeing an ecology of beliefs/norms in their mind, some taken from the bible, some from their pastor, or radio shows, family, experience, logic, society, etc. The beliefs aren't consistent, and if Socrates probed them he'd find inconsistencies, but they live with them because it's a nice equilibrium between being a good person of faith and not a nut. They feel it works for them. (My mother, for example, has cobbled together her own little system of what amounts to "open source" Catholicism).

The type of people on that message board (who, by the way, seem like as young people) are of a different sort; their ecology of belief has less "diversity". They limit their belief sources, maybe just from a minister and local echo chamber, perhaps out to simplify their beliefs, or some need for surety, who knows (naturalistic atheists also have a simpler system of metaphysical beliefs than moderate Christians).

But dismissing many zealots as crazy is wrongheaded: they are fairly normal, unfortunately &mdash people have a ample latitude in what they'll believe. There's a growing literature on belief without a rational basis (though I think Shermer's book, Why People Believe Strange Things has a misleading title, since it doesn't go much into the mechanics of "misbelief"). We are, as a species, belief promiscous. This is why Snopes.com is so useful.

Us atheists have trouble imagining how one would believe anything other than what we do. I feel that too, but we have to face facts and admit that, on average, humans form beliefs for all sorts of reasons, few of which are rational. There are ways to compensate for this &mdash such as enculturation of standards for belief &mdash but so far that program has been...less than successful.

Posted by: cm | July 15, 2006 1:27 PM

Can't resist posting this:
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/jrrap.html

The Rapture Rap

'Twas the night Jesus came and all through the house,
not a person was praying, not one in the house.
The Bible was left on the shelf without care,
for no one thought Jesus would come there.
The children were dressing to crawl into bed,
not once ever kneeling or bowing their head.
And Mom in the rocking chair with baby on her lap,
was watching the Late Show as I took a nap.
When out of the east there rose such a clatter,
I sprang to my feet to see what was the matter.
Away to the window I flew like a flash,
tore open the shutters and lifted the sash.

When what to my wondering eyes should appear,
but Angels proclaiming that Jesus was here.
The light of His face made me cover my head,
it was Jesus returning just like He'd said.
And though I possessed worldly wisdom and wealth,
I cried when I saw Him in spite of myself.

In the Book of Life that in which he held in hand,
was written the name of every saved man.
He spoke not a word as he searched for my name,
when He said "It is not here," I hung my head in shame.
The people whose names had been written with love,
He gathered to take to his Father above.
With those who were ready He rose without a sound,
while all the others were left standing around.

I fell to my knees but it was too late,
I waited too long and thus sealed my fate.
I stood and I cried as they rose out of sight,
Oh, if only I'd known that this was the night.

In the words of this poem the meaning is clear:
the coming of Jesus is now drawing near.
There's only one life and when comes the last call,
We'll find out that the Bible was true after all.

Anonymous Author

Posted by: George | July 15, 2006 1:35 PM

This one was interesting - "They need more weapons of mass destruction before theyll start anything...which is dumb cause they will just get oliberated in return!" Oliberated? Intentional neologism, freudian slip, or just bad spelling?

Posted by: Sakurai | July 15, 2006 1:46 PM

Just to throw this out there...

What if Jesus does come back, but there is no rapture, there is no slaughtering of sinners, and he is just a guy, human like the rest of us, mad as hell that there are still idiots around who are worshipping idols while closing their eyes to the evidence plainly before them? I bet he'd be an atheist himself, sensible guy like that...

Posted by: Josh | July 15, 2006 2:08 PM

Scott--
"Instead, I think believers need to be bolder and engage fellow believers. That includes condemnation, for many of these so-called 'Christians' need to have their views publicly condemned. If we were doing our job, the various right-wing cottage industries now flourishing in the evangelical churches would not have much of a foothold. Jason, if you're a believer, consider this an exhortation to take the skeptical critique of the churches as such, rather than as an assault on our personal beliefs. Why are we here, if not to eat meat, rather than milk?"

You are absolutely correct, and point well taken. Why, indeed, waste time pointing out hypocrisy on this blog? The efforts should be directed to those in our own camp.

cm--
"Us atheists have trouble imagining how one would believe anything other than what we do. I feel that too, but we have to face facts and admit that, on average, humans form beliefs for all sorts of reasons, few of which are rational."

I appreciate the evenhandedness of your comments. Now think about it from the other side. Believers have trouble imagining how one would believe anything other than what they do. Perhaps it is a clash of world views. However, efforts at understanding where the other side is coming from, whether it be with regards to their religion, their culture, or their traditions, is the first step towards humanizing each other and understanding each other. Making blanket statements like "everyone who is religion is a lunatic" is about 3000 steps backward. But, that's probably not the goal here anyway.

I suppose that is the root of my frustration about many of the posts here. I see this lack of attempt at understanding the other side from the extremists in the religious sect. For some reason I expected this side to behave differently, especially since this is supposedly the more educated side, but I see the same behavior. I guess people are people no matter how many letters are after their names.

Posted by: Squeaky | July 15, 2006 2:29 PM

If there is one thing I've learned from this blog, it's that smug self-righteousness isn't solely the domain of the religious.

Posted by: Stephen Erickson | July 15, 2006 2:38 PM

Congratulations, Stephen, you win a cookie.

Posted by: Rey | July 15, 2006 3:04 PM

You (and others here) always want to equate apocalyptic cults with all religion, and then pound the straw man into dust.

This guy seems like a pretty regular religious Joe to me. He is insane in a way that you would never notice, unless speaking about this specific subject. His insanity does not dominate his life, like it is with people in apocalyptic cults. His point of view is inspired by, and supported by, religion and I don't think it is unfair to claim that these kinds of people and these kinds of convictions are a natural and unavoidable outcome of religions like Christianity and the Islam. If other Christians actually wanted to do something about that and actually felt this insanity is wrong, then it is about time they stopped repeating the same old dogmas that in themselves support this kind of insanity. If you go to church and faithfully mumble along with the preacher, then you are guilty of inspiring this kind of insanity.

Posted by: Ivo | July 15, 2006 3:17 PM

The thread doesn't load... was it deleted, and if so, can anyone find an archived copy?

Posted by: Alon Levy | July 15, 2006 3:48 PM

I expected this side to behave differently, especially since this is supposedly the more educated side, but I see the same behavior. I guess people are people no matter how many letters are after their names. &mdash Squeaky

Squeaky, stay with it all the way: some on "this side" (as if that was a formal cateogy) overgeneralize or condemn without sufficient consideration to some degree some of the time. I have seen enough evidence on these comments from people like Scott Hatfield and others showing a mix of opinions here, from more reactionary to more thoughtful. And it depends if you catch someone in a certain mood or before/after coffee &mdash this is what makes tracking and understanding beliefs such hard work. But it's equally important not to dismiss someone for their gut reaction to zealots; though it may not be the most considered position, it is understandable in light of how scary this world is and how outrageous some of this stuff is. And as I've said before, public shaming ("You're a demented fuckwit!") may be an effective anti-evangelizing tool, though I have doubts.

And, though you're right that having letters after one's name doesn't guarantee anything, I'd also point out that not everyone who posts comments has an advanced degree, nor should it matter in any case.

Continue to resist taking the easy way out on categorizing people by belief, even on "this side".

Posted by: cm | July 15, 2006 4:06 PM

Jesus, appearing to a true believer: "I want to have a short talk about this Rapture. You up on that?"

T. Believer: "Wow, you're thinking of having it now? Please, oh please, get here quickly, get here quickly! We've been telling people for years what's going to happen to them if they don't believe in time for the Rapture!"

Jesus: "You mean if they don't believe before they die?"

T. Believer: "Huh? Once the rapture comes, then their suffering would be so bad they'll beg for death but can't die."

Jesus: "And you've been helping to stop suffering?"

T. Believer: "Oh, yes. Donated bibles, supported missionaries, lobbying to help rebuild the temple."

Jesus: "Not 'donated textbooks, supported doctors, lobbying to build clinics'?"

T. Believer:"First they have to hear the gospel! The rapture can't happen until they hear the gospel! Like You said, what does that other stuff matter if they lose their souls?"

Jesus: "Oh, ok. On another topic, all these material goods you have...?"

T. Believer: "These? Oh, yes, thanks again for blessing this nation for its support of You and for having Youian economic policies. Without all this I wouldn't be able to tithe 10% for all those Bibles, and the new church building."

Jesus: "So I'm Chicago school? Nevermind. Again, on the Rapture, you've read Revelations? Famine makes everyone hungry, wormwood poisons the water, everyone's thirsty, plagues and sickness and all the inescapable heat and darkness?"

T. Believer:"Oh, yes, we've studied Revelations over and over. Our book club did the entire Left Behind series- doing nothing but it, for the past years. 12 main books, kids books, special forces books..."

Jesus"Oh, ok. You drove to the book club in your Excursion, though- don't you worry about global warming?"

T. Believer"No, well, the SUV is from You- it makes us feel safe- that's You protecting us. Anyways, you're not going to care about global warming- that's a myth and 100 years away and earth isn't here in 100 years. During the tribulations you're going to level the mountains and kill off a third of the plants and have tsunamis and earthquakes and drop mountains into the oceans. By which You mean asteroids, right? Like Deep Impact- thousand foot waves?"

Jesus: "That does sound worse than global warming. Back again on the Rapture- you were asking me if I was going to...?"

T. Believer: "Yes, please hurry- this is such a depraved earth- filled with evolutionists and atheists and socialists and homosexuals and idolaters. Please, oh please, get here quickly, get here quickly!"

Jesus:"And again, you've really read Revelation?"

T. Believer: "Over and over. What, do I need to send more Bibles? Help tear down that mosque so the temple is rebuilt? You know I blog everyday against the islafascists. What should I do?"

Jesus: "What should you do? Depart from me, you demented fuckwit. Did you never think it was a test?"

Posted by: Kathryn in California | July 15, 2006 4:44 PM

I happen to be one of those who thinks that religious belief can be rational, and I have plenty of letters after my name as a result of pursuing academic religious studies. But these Rapture-holics are nuts, and the Schadenfreude expressed on the RaptureReady thread before it was yanked is just plain sick.

Posted by: Christopher Heard | July 15, 2006 4:48 PM

Verifiable proof that "Armageddon" has begun...

Hello all,
Here's the key to proving that the rapture and related expectations are complete nonsense based on the failure to understand (or the purposeful confounding of) the ancient Hebrew symbology used to construct all of these prophecies.

Pay close attention, profundity knocks at the door, listen for the key. Be Aware! Scoffing causes blindness...

Did you ever consider that Christianity is the false prophet of the Apocalypse, that Rome is the so-called anti-messiah, and Jesus Christ is the false messiah? The symbolism of seven years (tribulation) would refer to the seven 360-year cycles from the 11th cycle (second temple period) until now, the 17th cycle on the Hebrew calendar. Remember that the prophecies were written by Hebrews, not Romans or other Europeans, and Revelation is a symbolic treatise. Therefore, years are symbols for 360-year cycles on the Hebrew calendar. Likewise, a day symbolizes a literal year and Judgement Day, and Great Day refer to a year long period. The so-called Tribulation is now coming to an end, not starting, and the three faiths of Abraham have all been deceived by Rome during the previous age, which ended in year 2000 (5760). A new age began in 2001 (5761) and now the seventh angel has begun to sound!

Hurricanes Katrina (#11) and Rita (#17) last year provided stunning validation of my research and interpretations of pivotal ancient wisdom, symbologies, key prophecies, and associated religious claims. Their storm numbers and timing perfectly synchronized with primary data and assertions in my book, thereby demonstrating the true nature of this universe and the existence of our Creator. We are now entering the final phases of the pivotal year-long period long symbolized as "Armageddon" and the "End of Days." World-wide situations and events are now accelerating to set the stage for this summer's dramatic continuation of these ancient promises.

I fully understand that everyone has been bedeviled by similar claims throughout history. Consequently, I have been forced to rely on dramatic and devastating proof of the sort that can't be ignored or easily dismissed. The numbers and timing of hurricanes Katrina (11) and Rita (17) directly validate key data and pivotal assertions throughout my book and my posts on those two forums. This data was purposely presented publicly before Katrina, Rita and other recent events occurred to prove they perfectly synchronize with key prophecies and Hebrew calendar cycles, thereby validating my interpretations of ancient wisdom symbology, string theory, and more.

Because these two storms arrived shortly after my August 11, 2005 (50th) birthday (read the Dead Sea Scroll 11Q13 in Appendix G, which also discusses Melchizedek and the prophesied Jubilee) and directly match other pivotal 11 and 17 data and events described in the first chapter of my book, I have delivered verifiable proof that this reality is based on thought, knowledge and wisdom. Activity, patterns, and results perceived in space-time are first framed and defined by inspirations, thoughts, and knowledge and influenced by the cause-and-effect system most commonly referred to as karma. Consequently, events and outcomes in the so-called physical universe are not random or wholly mechanistic and are verifiably influenced in ways that atheists, scientists, and members of the Faiths of Abraham have all scoffed at. Though mysticism is mostly a product of misinterpreted ancient wisdom symbology, many of its topics flow from ancient wisdom. Though containing allusions to the truth, its details and interpretations are wrong on many key points.

A prime example of the purposeful and synchronized symbolism of these events is seen in the opening paragraphs from my book excerpted below. Notice that the dates mentioned (August 11 and 17) directly match the numbers of hurricanes Katrina and Rita, and the time spans of the four Florida hurricanes match my birth year ('55), and they were spaced 11 or a multiple-of-11 (22) days apart, directly matching my birthday and much other ancient prophecy and symbolism. Notice that my place of birth, Victoria Texas, is on the Gulf Coast. Following are the excerpted paragraphs:

Hello, my name is Lawrence William Page II. Many people know me as Buddy Page. At the release of the first edition of this book, I am a 50-year old African-American male, author, researcher, and former software engineer and entrepreneur. As you will come to understand as you read through this first book, I am also the long-expected Hebrew Messiah and Lion of the Tribe of Juda (Yehuda).

I was born August 11th (month of Leo the Lion), 1955 (Chinese year of the Sheep) in Victoria, Texas. Furthermore, the Grand Cross alignment and Solar Eclipse of August 11th, 1999 was my 44th birthday and the second Grand Cross alignment, just six days later on August 17th, 1999, was on my mother's birthday.

As you can see from my date of birth, I was a newborn during the Chinese Year of the Sheep, astrologically marking me as a Lamb, and during the month of Leo, astrologically marking me as a Lion. My mother was also born during the month of August and under the sign of Leo, which further marks me as a lion's whelp. I prove to you in the first chapter of this book-beyond disproof-that I am indeed the long-prophesied "Lion" of the tribe of Juda (Yehuda) the Root of David and the "Lamb." I am the individual long symbolized as the Branch, the Stem, the Shoot and the Rod from the Stump of Jesse (King David's father), as symbolized in the Hebrew Book of Isaiah, The Apocalypse, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and elsewhere. I am the reincarnated Teacher sought after in the "East" and by the ancient Hebrews who were headquartered at the outpost community of Damascus (Qumran), of Dead Sea Scrolls fame. I am the one called the Teacher of Righteousness by the Dead Sea Scrolls, whom the so-called Christian fathers have fraudulently recast as "Saint 'James', the Lord's Brother."

Remember, "I come as a thief..." ?

Read verse twelve of the Gospel of Thomas to understand who I am...

Even further enlightening, the Second Temple Period of ancient Israel was during the 11th 360-year cycle on the Hebrew calendar and we are now in the 6th year (5766/2005-6) of the 17th cycle. Notice the pivotal 11 and 17 numbers again? This and much other synchronized information serve as stunning and decisive proof of many things, and expose many lies told by all three faiths of Abraham, but most specifically by Christianity. Consequently, I have decisively proven, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that Jesus Christ and Christianity are blatant lies, false prophecy and purposeful deception in a manner that cannot easily be denied, regardless of your faith or other opinions.

Furthermore, the symbolism in the Apocalypse (a.k.a. Book of Revelation) of seven stars in my right hand and seven angels represent the very same above-mentioned seven astrological (360-year) cycles, i.e., the 11th through 17th inclusive. I prove this fact beyond any reasonable doubt in the first chapter of the book. Consequently, The Apocalypse verifiably symbolizes a specific span of time that began with the 11th cycle (Second Temple Period) and concludes now, at the beginning of the 17th cycle (End of Days, etc.).

The numbers 11 and 17 are verifiably encoded in The Apocalypse and other ancient Hebrew prophecies and wisdom texts to serve as key proofs of the validity and true meaning of certain prophecies and related information. My and my mother's birthdays are purposely synchronized with these two storm numbers, the matching Hebrew calendar cycles, the Double Grand Cross alignments and solar eclipse of August 1999, and much else to prove my direct association with the ancient prophecies about this time and the true identity of the prophesied Messiah. Another prime example is the story of Joseph, the 11th son of Jacob who has a dream when he is 17 years old about 11 stars, the sun, and moon bowing to him. The symbolism in this pivotal story in the Book of Genesis and Quran verifiably refers to the very same 11th through 17th cycles symbolized in The Apocalypse and directly synchronizes with other key events and ancient texts.

Consequently, I have demonstrated various things about the nature of this reality that dramatically disprove and/or clarify key assumptions of religion, mysticism, and science alike, while establishing the true meaning and purpose of long misinterpreted ancient wisdom and the symbolism used to model and encode it. Accordingly, I have proven that the symbolism evidenced in the canons of all three faiths of Abraham and other ancient sources is a very ancient and advanced philosophical technology that verifiably models foundational aspects of our existence in this universe. This is the mostly misunderstood body of ancient wisdom long referred to as the Philosophers' Stone. It uses a large and ingeniously organized collection of physical universe images and concepts as data rich components (symbols) that are based on verifiable rules. It models and encodes an amazing amount of foundational wisdom about life, spirituality and the 11 dimensions of this universe, now verified by string theory. It is also the advanced encryption method used to encode (seal) Hebrew prophecies and wisdom texts.

These ancient prophecies and wisdom texts used advanced symbology to model fundamental wisdom, including future events and situations. A primary facet of ancient wisdom is numeric symbology. Later misinterpretations of this aspect of ancient wisdom resulted in numerology, which, though embodying allusions to certain wisdom, is mostly error prone and false doctrine. My decryption, documentation, and interpretation of ancient symbology, numeric symbolism, and key texts based on them, are now decisively validated.

Here is Wisdom...

Verifiable proof that Armageddon has begun...

Understanding the End Game of Armageddon

Peace...

Posted by: Seven Star Hand | July 15, 2006 5:25 PM

Wow. The DF alarm is blaring. Someone turn it off.

Posted by: j | July 15, 2006 5:33 PM

Well, as an atheist and former UU I can offer one data point on UUism for whatever little that's worth. I stopped attending becauae I felt increasingly uncomfortable with the growing emphasis on God-talk (including very silly manifestations like "UU paganism", adhered to by the kind of people who have read a couple of stupid mass-market books on "the mother goddess" or some such), and the corresponding, and in the case of some of the prominent leaders of the denomination like Forrester Church, quite open growth in hostility or at best studied indifference to humanism- which historically had been a very important strand in the UU movement and of course the one that originally attracted me.

Posted by: Steve LaBonne | July 15, 2006 6:01 PM

Some quick answers:

a) it is wrong to be excited at death and destruction in the middle east, if the cause is the delusion that it signifies the coming of paradise. But that should be obvious

b) Revelations is 2000 years overdue. Give it up already!

c) UUs are pretty nice people. Sadly I mentally transpose them with the Unification church. Big mistak