…and this is a 
Rapture rubbish and apocalyptic asininity
Category: Godlessness • Kooks
Posted on: July 11, 2006 2:04 PM, by PZ Myers
Unbelievable. Whenever I read about these End Times kooks, I wonder what is wrong with people.
For some Christians this means laying the groundwork for Armageddon.
With that goal in mind, mega-church pastors recently met in Inglewood to polish strategies for using global communications and aircraft to transport missionaries to fulfill the Great Commission: to make every person on Earth aware of Jesus' message. Doing so, they believe, will bring about the end, perhaps within two decades.
The article is full of red heifers and rebuilt temples and urgent conversions to satisfy prophecy and lunatics anxious to usher in the apocalypse. These people are insane.
…Bill McCartney, a former University of Colorado football coach and co-founder of the evangelical Promise Keepers movement for men, which became huge in the 1990s, has had a devil of a time getting his own apocalyptic campaign off the ground.
It's called The Road to Jerusalem, and its mission is to convert Jews to Christianity—while there is still time.
"Our whole purpose is to hasten the end times," he said. "The Bible says Jews will be brought to jealousy when they see Christians and Jewish believers together as one—they'll want to be a part of that. That's going to signal Jesus' return."
Jews and others who don't accept Jesus, he added matter-of-factly, "are toast."
Sizzle, sizzle. Ha ha, if you don't accept my kooky beliefs, my Impossible Space Monster will destroy you. And it's not just Christians…all the children of Abraham get in the act of mutual hatred.
…in what has become a spectacular annual routine, Jews—hoping to rebuild the Holy Temple destroyed by the Romans in AD 70—attempt to haul the 6 1/2 -ton cornerstones by truck up to the Temple Mount, the site now occupied by the Dome of the Rock shrine. Each year, they are turned back by police.
Among those turned away is Gershon Solomon, spokesman for Jerusalem's Temple Institute. When the temple is built, he said, "Islam is over."
Oh, and Ahmadinejad is in there with his own delusions of an all-conquering Muslim messiah. They're nuts, too.
There's the usual roster of American evangelical dorkwads…and an appalling statistic.
According to various polls, an estimated 40% of Americans believe that a sequence of events presaging the end times is already underway. Among the believers are pastors of some of the largest evangelical churches in America, who converged at Faith Central Bible Church in Inglewood in February to finalize plans to start 5 million new churches worldwide in 10 years.
"Jesus Christ commissioned his disciples to go to the ends of the Earth and tell everyone how they could achieve eternal life," said James Davis, president of the Global Pastors Network's "Billion Souls Initiative," one of an estimated 2,000 initiatives worldwide designed to boost the Christian population.
"As we advance around the world," Davis said, "we'll be shortening the time needed to fulfill that Great Commission. Then, the Bible says, the end will come."
Hasn't this gone far enough? Where are all the rational people who look aghast at this nonsense and tell these people that there is something wrong with them? I keep hearing about these good Christians who practice a sensible and healthy religion—what do you do when your neighbors or friends or family or minister starts babbling about Armageddon? Do you sit quietly and hold your tongue, for politeness' sake? Is that how this kind of absurdity is allowed to grow?
Do me a favor. It's a big favor, and we need everyone to join in. Next time your brother, or your sister-in-law, or your grandmother, or some guy in the booth next to you at the coffeeshop, starts talking about the Rapture or the End Times or the Second Coming or whatever crap they want to call it, just stand up, turn to them, and say loudly and clearly so everyone around you can hear it,
And walk away. Treat them as the pariahs they should be.
This will be especially effective if you do it in your church.
Don't argue with them. Don't waste any effort on them. Just make your contempt loud and clear. It's not hard. And when the conversation with others turns to those nitwits, don't wrestle with their mental problems at all. Just say,
It's a message we need to get out there more.
Hey, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Clyde Lott, James Davis, John C. Hagee, Bill McCartney, Gershon Solomon, Ted Haggard, and all you other hucksters, con artists, televangelists, delusional wackos, self-styled prophets, and agents of ignorance and doom:
You can also start singing this song if they go off on one of their other obsessions.
I'm actually getting people in the comments telling me that this brusque dismissal is inappropriate: I'm supposed to engage these loons in serious debate. Look, people, I've met a few of them. You have to realize that you are proposing a rational discussion with a guy who believes that the all-powerful god of the cosmos is waiting for him to butcher the exactly right cow, and then this deity will come to earth and engage in a holy war against the people who eat bacon and clams. That is, he is a demented fuckwit.
I can tell you exactly what will happen if you engage him. He will quote Bible verses at you with absolute certainty. He will recite well-practiced dogma over and over again. He won't falter, he won't doubt, he won't think. And your audience will be impressed at his unwavering command of the "facts," and that you, O Wise and Rational Science Guy, think his story is worth arguing about, as equals.
Comments
I think anyone questioning science and espousing their superior christian/jewish/muslim beliefs should be asked right off...
"Do you believe we're approaching or are in the End Times? Or Is the messiah soon to return?"
Wonder if anyone would even ask Mel GIbson that.
And if they dance around the answer... call them on it.
Ann Coulter needs to be asked.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 11, 2006 2:18 PM
All I can say is Armageddon sick of all the End Times talk.
Posted by: JakeB | July 11, 2006 2:25 PM
There so much stupidity out there, the end of the world will show all those people that I'm right and they are wrong. It's a matter of winning an argument, you know. What if I want the world to come to an end so all this craziness will stop and I'll be able to continue with my life? Where do I sign for the conversions??
Oh, wait a minute, you said END of the world..??
Posted by: c | July 11, 2006 2:27 PM
To be honest, I would answer that yes, the end of human time is probaly in the offing. Do I believe that a messiah or invisible sky daddy is the cause. Hell no, I think morons with horrible weapons and LOTS of delusions are the reason we humans have a rather bleak outlook for long-term survival.
Posted by: flame821 | July 11, 2006 2:28 PM
http://www.leftbehindgames.com/pages/the_games.htm
This really pisses me off.
I live in NYC. They're promoting walking around Manhattan during armageddon and offing those who fail to convert.
THEY ARE DEMENTED FUCKWITS.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 11, 2006 2:31 PM
The article requires a "free registration" (I assume that's as in free beer, not free speech) with which I don't feel like bothering today. However, I have to note that my baloney-detection warning flags went up when I saw the line "According to various polls, an estimated 40% of Americans believe that a sequence of events presaging the end times is already underway." How do we know this isn't a number like the "one in ten people have been abducted by aliens" (or whatever the exact figure was) which the pollsters derived by asking unrelated questions --- have you ever had a nosebleed, found unexpected bruises on your body, etc. --- and counted all those who answered more than one with "yes".
This example comes from Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World, which I left at home today because I foolishly thought I'd be doing actual work instead of commenting on blogs.
I can easily imagine a poll along the same lines in which the pollsters ask leading questions and then (intentionally or not) misinterpret the results. For example, if you ask people straight-up, "Are we living in the time the Book of Revelations predicted as the last generation before the Apocalypse?" I bet you'll get fewer yes replies than if you asked, "Are you concerned about the threat of international terrorism?" Ask ten questions of the latter kind and you could easily fabricate a 40% proportion of apocalyptically-inclined respondents.
It's not an impossible figure, but it does require validation. There's gotta be a better source for that number than an offhand mention. . . After all, the easiest way to lie with statistics is just to make them up.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 11, 2006 2:34 PM
I say this with sincerity. I am a Christian man who is seriously rethinking my thoughts on my religion.
I find this a disgusting sentiment that I simply am not sure I can honestly stomach. I find people to be generally good. We all have made mistakes, hurt and been hurt by others but that is part and parcel of being human. I don't even think a person like Hitler deserves eternal suffering. In fact I think that would say more about me for allowing than it is a reference on his action.
Why Jesus would care about whether a building is built on one tiny scrap of land on a tiny dot of his creation is beyond me.
And it should be mentioned if they seek the end so bad they can instantly transport themselves to heaven using means that will affect only themselves.
Posted by: Chance![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/nav-commenters.gif)
|
July 11, 2006 2:34 PM
I remember hearing someone ask Bush something along the lines of 'a lot of your support comes from the religous conservatives who beleive that the rapture is coming soon, do you share their beleifs'. He gave some lame non-answer, but i think he, and all those milking the religeous right for votes should be repeatedly questioned on this point. I think this is an obvious way to cut people off from a support base of nut-jobs.
Posted by: zwa | July 11, 2006 2:37 PM
These people remind me of some of the survivalist-types I knew. They're literally more invested in the world ending than in making the world better. I don't care what money they spend on hospitals and charity when they poison our culture with this malarkey and write off the future.
There's something hideously Lovecraftian about all this - people trying to conduction religious rituals to bring about the end of the world, and looking forward to the slaughter of much of humanity. What a terrible, sadistic, psychopathic false god they must worship.
(And if you haven't followed the debacle of the Left Behind Video Game, you should. Shooting nurses for Christ!)
I maintain hope in humanity simply because I know we can do better. If I give up on that - then I become a bit more like these buggers.
Posted by: DragonScholar | July 11, 2006 2:37 PM
www.bugMeNot.com will help those who don't feel the need to divulge personal information just to read an article..
Posted by: James | July 11, 2006 2:39 PM
Yep. People like this are entirely wrong about their beliefs. God isn't beholden to their actions and they can't force Him to "end the world" with their plans. Yes, Christians are called to spread the Gospel to the world, but our goal is not to make God bring about the Rapture and End Times. Such thinking is ridiculously un-Christian, but thankfully it's not commonplace.
However, PZ, as for your solution to call people who believe in the Bible vulgar names, it will only result in people seeing you yourself as your own epithet. The only pariah will be you.
Posted by: Jason | July 11, 2006 2:40 PM
Isn't it interesting? All these xtians working for the second coming, all of them with the deep unspoken fear in their guts that Jesus, when he appears to them, will look just like Schmule Boteach.
Posted by: Humbert Dinglepencker | July 11, 2006 2:41 PM
Steve_c - I think that's a heartwarming money-making enterprise, no more. The multiplayer version lets you choose whose team you want to be on - jesus or antijesus. Sort of like Counterstrike or Axis and Allies. In fact, I shouldn't be surprised if one of the more successful mods for this game were to "unlock" this functionality in singleplayer mode as well.
Posted by: D | July 11, 2006 2:43 PM
I forgot to mention two things. First, a bad poll could (by hook or by crook) blend legitimate worries --- global warming, overpopulation --- with nonsense ones like the Revelations wingnuts ramble about. This would make inflating the numbers even easier. Second, check out "It's The End Of The World As We Know It... Again"!
Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 11, 2006 2:43 PM
PZ was very clear about who to call DEMENTED FUCKWITS...
Those who believe we are nearing the rapture, first coming/second coming return of Mohammed. Or that they should do ANYTHING to bring it about.
Jason will you call them demented fuckwits? Or your softer more compassionate christian version? Whatever that is.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 11, 2006 2:47 PM
D:
The other most popular mod will be the one which lets you take the clothes off the Whore of Babylon. (-:
Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 11, 2006 2:48 PM
My wife politely asks if we are allowed to call them "batshit insane" instead.
When little old ladies are about, it does help slightly to drop the profanity, but you can still get the core message through.
Posted by: mjfgates | July 11, 2006 2:48 PM
A lot of the earth's problems could be immediately solved if all of the world's demented fuckwits were taken away in a rapture. Unfortunately, it's not gonna happen... drats.
Posted by: Natasha Coureaux | July 11, 2006 2:50 PM
Chance said:
I don't even think a person like Hitler deserves eternal suffering. ... Why Jesus would care ... transport themselves to heaven ...
There is no such thing as eternal suffering.
Jesus, if the figure described in the New Testament and elsewhere, doesn't care about anyone anymore. He's dead and long, long gone.
There is no heaven transport. If people stopped believing in this figment of their imaginations, the world might be a safer place.
Posted by: George | July 11, 2006 2:51 PM
I bet if you play as the anti-christ they make it impossible for you to win.
Besides... the game just looks lousy.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 11, 2006 2:54 PM
"And walk away. Treat them as the pariahs they should be."
I've been doing that basically all my life. I doubt it has helped. They seem to have achieved a self-sustaining population.
Posted by: s9 | July 11, 2006 2:54 PM
"You are Demented Fuckwits"
I believe this is a hymn in one of the alternative hymnals of the Episcopal Church. We need to dust it off for our own demented fuckwits first, however. ;-)
Posted by: MReap | July 11, 2006 2:54 PM
@ mjfgates
Now that's a realistic plan
Posted by: cp | July 11, 2006 2:54 PM
For all those joining our program already in progress:
Back in April, a Pharyngula reader provided an antitroll killfile. If you use Firefox with the Greasemonkey plugin, this script will put a little "kill" link beside the signature line of each blog comment. Clicking "kill" will screen out the chosen individual forevermore. You still get to see the pieces of their comments quoted by those who reply to them, of course, but in general the replies to a troll are more thoughtful and humane than the original.
I find this little tool raises the average level of discourse visible to me and reduces my inevitable temptation to feed the trolls. As indicated, it only works for Firefox.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 11, 2006 2:55 PM
The "everyone except us will be tortured for eternity" thing was the first bit of my theology to crumble, back in the day. I don't see how anyone can actually live for an extended period with that belief and remain both humane and sane. ISTM that one either has to suppress it and mention it only rarely (many evangelicals, who manage to be decent people most of the time), become a frenetic in-your-face evangelist (and we meet lots of those), or start to think that tormenting the infidel is a good thing -- maybe even to giving them a head-start on the process (and we've run across a few of those, too). It is a evil, morally corrupting doctrine.
Posted by: Steve Watson | July 11, 2006 2:56 PM
BATSHIT INSANE DEMENTED FUCKWITS
From the Game FAQ.
Are guns used by Christians against non-Christians? Why or why not?
The storyline in the game begins just after the Rapture has occurred - when all adult Christians, all infants, and many children were instantly swept home to Heaven and off the Earth by God. The remaining population - those who were left behind - are then poised to make a decision at some point. They cannot remain neutral. Their choice is to either join the AntiChrist - which is an imposturous one world government seeking peace for all of mankind, or they may join the Tribulation Force - which seeks to expose the truth and defend themselves against the forces of the AntiChrist.
Does the violence depicted in the game run contrary to Jesus' message on "love your enemy"?
Absolutely not. Christians are quite clearly taught to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies. It is equally true that no one should forfeit their lives to an aggressor who is bent on inflicting death. Forgiveness does not require absolute defenselessness. Apparent contradictions on behalf of Christians are often the result of them placing greater importance on the message, than in caring for others. LEFT BEHIND: Eternal Forces is a game which provides great entertainment while encouraging fascinating discussions about matters of eternal importance.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 11, 2006 2:58 PM
I don't know if I'm interested in reading another of PZ religion posts in detail, it's a bit long. All I can say is that the proposed "demented fuckwit" strategy is really, really stupid and worthless. What;s happening, PZ? Forgot your pills, your anger management sessions? Showing yourself really really angry is not going to impress anyone, you know.
Why not instead of flinging yourself into the corner of easy extremism and shouting insults from there don't you take two seconds to analize why people are despaired? It is despair that makes them give up on control of their lives and believe only the big G can save them. They are anxiously waiting for a "rapture" that will never come. Some asshole shouting obsceneties and insults to them doesn't help, you know. It just confirms to them that the world is the hopeless shithole they think it is.
Posted by: Alexander Vargas | July 11, 2006 3:00 PM
Among those turned away is Gershon Solomon, spokesman for Jerusalem's Temple Institute. When the temple is built, he said, "Islam is over."
Then Solomon says later of Christianity...
"What kind of religion is it that expects another religion will be destroyed?"
So destroying Islam is fine, yet the destruction of YOUR inane belief structure is unthinkable? Another critical eye that has never seen a mirror.
Demented Fuckwits.
Posted by: Phil | July 11, 2006 3:04 PM
So, Vargas, basically "TOO LONG DIDNT READ LOL"? Thanks for your participation.
Posted by: BMurray | July 11, 2006 3:05 PM
Religious kooks in the hands of an angry PZ. A joy to behold.
How about some idiotic-fantasy-god-thought management? Is there a pill to control that?
Posted by: George | July 11, 2006 3:08 PM
How much of this belief that the Rapture is imminent comes from those ghastly Left Behind books?
I am reminded of how some people believe in the Cthulhu mythos, assert that Abdul Alhazred is a real person, and are looking for a bootleg copy of the Necronomicon.
Posted by: JW Tan | July 11, 2006 3:09 PM
I see nothing wrong with calling people "demented fuckwits" when they are, objectively, demented fuckwits.
Posted by: Wally Whateley | July 11, 2006 3:10 PM
You have a big misunderstanding on how to deal with people, PZ. You seem to think that however "is right" has the RIGHT to insult. You don't care if you are insulted if the person insulting you is right, and you don't care if you insult anyone as long as you feel you are right.
It just makes for the innecessary accumulation of stupidity, polarization and extremism. No intelligent person feels the need to adorn his views with a string of obscenities. Moreover, he will realize that insulting is invalidating those who oppose him, and can only expect to be invalidated in turn, thrown away along with his message. If you think you have ever turned someone in with that startegy, you haven't. You won't "shock" anyone who was not ALREADY open to doubt.
Posted by: Alexander Vargas | July 11, 2006 3:10 PM
AV obviously didn't bother to read it.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 11, 2006 3:12 PM
Nobody, my friends, is a purebred, irreversible "demented fuckwit". Not even you!
Posted by: Alexander Vargas | July 11, 2006 3:12 PM
These loonies were around back in the Reagan days, too. Remember Interior Scty James Watt? He thought we should use up all our natural resources because the world would be ending shortly, and why save them? He was forced to resign after referring to a group of people on some kind of Senate committee as "a black, a woman, two Jews and a cripple." Good christian sentiment, right?
Posted by: Mark Paris | July 11, 2006 3:14 PM
Well. I hate to quibble, because I often experience the exact same emotional reaction to these people: "they must be crazy!"
And yet, the eschatologically-minded Christians aren't insane, demented, etc. It would be so much easier if they were, because the demented don't as a rule vote much, pay taxes or hang together enough to be politically effective.
The Religious Right, however, does. Calling them names is not an effective response. This reinforces their conviction that they are a persecuted minority, and that those 'left behind' will suffer even greater persecution in the 'Great Tribulation'.
I agree with SteveC and zwa that putting political candidates on the spot with where they stand on 'end times' foolishness is absolutely essential.
I would suggest to Chance that his faith should not turn on whether or not this or that 'Christian' seems eager to condemn non-believers. I reject creationism not because creationists are venal; I reject creationism because it is poor theology and poor science.
And, with respect to what a fella should call such people, I prefer to call them 'brother'...as in 'brother, you've got some pretty strange ideas, let's look at the actual historical basis for these claims, and why Lindsey, LaHaye and others are just bad for Christianity, etc.'
I recognize that many on this blog feel no obligation to engaging anyone espousing 'end times' theology, much less 'talk nice.' But the old adage that you get more flies with honey than with vinegar definitely applies when you're dealing with the churched, and I think it is a mistake to assume that real Christians aren't challenging these views in the churches.
There are candles out there in the dark, to use Sagan's metaphor, and some of them are in the churches. Be encouraged.
Scott
Posted by: Scott Hatfield | July 11, 2006 3:16 PM
well it is kind of funny they believe in this speeding up the process thing, or in converting the jews (HA!!). Just let them! It will wear them out, just like every blatantly stupid word from Rovertson, every hate-intoxicated rant by Coulter. Extremists debilitate and wear their own causes out. And you guys don't want to do that.
The true thing is the despair rapturists live on, that is being reaped and collected. And all you good chaps will just feed into it shouting to rapture believers that they are "demented fuckwits". Try compassion, cause that is what they deserve.
Posted by: Alexander Vargas | July 11, 2006 3:19 PM
Humm. Really.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 11, 2006 3:31 PM
say the statistic is right, and 40% of the population is despaired enough to believe in rapture like scenarios. Is the "demented fuckwit" strategy the way to go about this? Hey, you guys have alredy lost quite a lot of sympathy because of your intellectualoid bigotry. You already were unable to keep the war mongering christain friendly president from re conquering the white house. Will you even be able to stand up to a third republican president? I don't care what you say, you are loosing and you should stop insulting and blame YOURSELVES. Unless you prefer to despair rather than take things in your hands. like good christians!!! hahaha
Could it be that its time you stop insulting (oh, yeah. I know it feels so good) and start some serious AUTO-CRITICISM before you lose AGAIN???
Posted by: Alexander Vargas | July 11, 2006 3:35 PM
I don't know how, but we need to get belief in the rapture, Hell, and a deity who cares about what you do with your naughty bits shoved into the same category as belief in eugenics, racial supremacy, and all that sort of nastiness. The former and the latter really aren't all that different from where I stand.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | July 11, 2006 3:36 PM
What I don't get is why everything we've learned about abusive relationships, being autonomous versus being co-dependent, democracy, and equality goes right out the window when people start talking about their relationship to God. Whenever they speak about a deity they drag out the "we're not supposed to question," and the grand old "God's punshing them/him/her/me out of love." This whole supposed cosmic purpose of the End Times and the Crapture is the most meaningless paradigm I have ever encountered. The sterile utilitarian view of having some "purpose" for one's life kills our greatest talent--the ability to create our own purpose. The End Times sounds like the biggest abortion in the world to me--I don't suppose this would make believers think.
Posted by: Kristine | July 11, 2006 3:37 PM
I disagree with this assessment. You don't have to suppress it, mention it rarely, or become some freak. The simple truth is that God cannot be around sin. The result of committing a sin is separation from God, and everyone has sinned. To where is God going to send me? Where He will send everyone who has sin that hasn't been paid for -- Hell (lake of fire and all that). No Christian wants anyone to go there and most of all God does not want anyone to go there. That is why Jesus came, to pay the penalty, and offer a free gift to all who choose to believe. A gift must be received to enjoy to benefit of it, you have to choose to receive it.
This doesn't sound like a God who wants his supposed believers to go around killing those who don't believe, quite the opposite.
I think the people in the article are trying to help, but they're skewing the message a little bit. That's why God wrote a book, so we can quote it and not screw up the message.
Sorry for the long post ...
Posted by: M Petersen | July 11, 2006 3:38 PM
My only hope right now is not the useless "insulting liberals" that seem to flourish around here, but the wearout that their own thugs and extremists can infllict upon the christian movement.
BTW, who thinks that P Robertson is 100% SINCERE??? He knows perfectly well what he is doing. He knows he tweaks things to get money. He is not a demented fuckwit, he's a plain scumbag.
Posted by: Alexander Vargas | July 11, 2006 3:42 PM
Belief in these being the "end times" is big in Mormonism, too, albeit it's not something that gets talked about a lot outside of church lessons. Mormons don't necessarily think we're literally in the last generation before the Second Coming--although some do--, but they do tend to think we're very close.
I remember back when I was a teenager, my father once opined that, as evidence of these being the end times, "The man with the sign of the beast on his forehead [was] now in charge of Russia"--referring, of course, to Gorbachev. This was long before I'd managed to come to terms with the fact that I really didn't believe in the church, but even though at the time I still considered myself a faithful Mormon that struck me as an utterly ridiculous thing to say...
(Of course, given subsequent events, I'm sure my father no longer thinks Gorbachev was "the man with the sign of the beast on his forehead", and has probably forgotten he ever said that...)
Posted by: an anonymous coward | July 11, 2006 3:43 PM
Still think the best way to handle these folks is to mock them brutally. My favorite: taking out billboards and posting messages like "The Rapture happened last Tuesday. Guess you missed it. -God"
Posted by: boojieboy | July 11, 2006 3:47 PM
As I've said before (about creationists, that time), these religious people have a strange attitude towards the natural world. On the one hand, they say it's the wonderful, perfect gift of a benevolent, all-knowing, all-powerful God. On the other hand, they seem to relish the idea that it's going to be destroyed any day now.
Posted by: Daryl McCullough | July 11, 2006 3:47 PM
You don't get it do you Scot? While I appreciate your comments I don't think there is an indication whatsoever that such a thing as 'good' theology exists. Just different theologies. Any theology that ends with people suffering here or later is simply objectionable. I would never lose my faith based on these retards but if the underlying premise is what supports the religion than perhaps the premise is flawed.
Posted by: Chance | July 11, 2006 3:48 PM
Truth is, christianity does not take the natural world as truly important. They may only rejoice in it at token or symbolic value. Its all about god, the "larger reality".
Which is typical of giving up on this world and looking up to a world that is not here. A symptom of social desperation.
The question is..why is there so much despair in American Society? There is always a fair dose, but why has it increased?
Posted by: Alexander Vargas | July 11, 2006 3:53 PM
"I keep hearing about these good Christians who practice a sensible and healthy religion--what do you do when your neighbors or friends or family or minister starts babbling about Armageddon? Do you sit quietly and hold your tongue, for politeness' sake?"
That's what I did, back when I was a believer. And so did any others among the church leadership; you don't want disagreements in your congregation, people leaving and making a stink. Better just to bite your tongue.
Rule number One: "Don't rock the boat."
Posted by: Susannah | July 11, 2006 3:54 PM
I'm not a big game fan, but I would go for a Civ-type game that allowed atheists to conquer the world (peacefully of course). The goal would be to gradually contain the religious on their exclusive island paradise, where they would have no means of communication with the outside world (and they would have to survive there with a limited capacity to exploit their environment and invent things, due to the dearth of scientists in their community). In the final stage of the game, the atheists would visit the island and discover that the inhabitants had all gone completely bonkers waiting for the rapture and from talking about God 24 hours a day.
Posted by: George | July 11, 2006 3:55 PM
I'm curious to know what evidence you have that suggests that "despair" is in fact increasing?
Posted by: James | July 11, 2006 3:58 PM
I have to say, it's kind of depressing to read these excerpts about these religious loonies and then see that the best response an educated scientist and professor can come up with is to scream obscene insults at the next person who advocates that point of view. I understand that's kind of Dr. Myers' shtick, but honestly, is that all we got? 'Cause I'm pretty sure it's not going to be enough.
Posted by: Max Udargo | July 11, 2006 3:59 PM
"Jews and others who don't accept Jesus, he added matter-of-factly, 'are toast.'"
Has there ever been a more empty threat? Or one more likely to be perceived that way by the threatened?
Posted by: 12xuser | July 11, 2006 4:03 PM
Lots of americans, christian and liberal have it pretty nice and obviously are not despaired. But I think that the increasing turn to radical christianity is an indicator of despair, and not of mere "foolishness" as some of the more lucky guys indulge themselves in thinking .
Posted by: Alexander Vargas | July 11, 2006 4:05 PM
Daryl, it's not that strange when you look at it from their point of view. The entire reason they "relish the idea that it's going to be destroyed any day now" is because they look forward to getting to heaven. A new heaven and a new earth will be created and there will be no more pain, only joy. Perhaps the "despair" that Alexandar is talking about is people (Christians) are tired of living in an evil and corrupt world. They want to be with God and suicide is not an option. In the meantime, they must suffer this world like everyone else and get the message out and love other people -- which isn't exactly easy all the time.
Posted by: M Petersen | July 11, 2006 4:05 PM
what is sin really? Human nature? Mistakes? errors in judgement?
See the nonchalance in your statement? It's scary, 'lake of fire and all that' it's disgusting to me that you accept the suffering of so many so easily.
Actually I have a problem with this philosophically. if Jesus paid the penalty the penalty no longer exists at all. If I get a ticket and owe a fine and you go down to the office and pay it for me, my ticket is paid. I don't have to thank you or even know that you did it. It's paid in full. It seems to me that if I go and ask you and have to believe you did it I trivialize the fact you did it for me in the first place or perhaps it only exists in the land of make believe.
The way it works in your scenario you place a gun to my head and force me to acknowledge you paid my ticket or else blam!
Posted by: Chance | July 11, 2006 4:08 PM
I wouldn't adopt PZ's style but he's entitled to express his frustration with such nonsense his way. But to argue that the rapturists shouldn't be confronted is just as much nonsense as the concept itself. I face these nitwits weekly when they picket a Planned Parenthood clinic where I volunteer. I never speak to them except in rational, civil tones and never make fun of them. So what do they do in response? Call me and my colleagues Satan's servant--Baby killer--Evil one--Murderer--Sinner--Anti-Christian--Asshole (a little old lady has called me that several times)--Blood sucker--Terrorist--and so on. They also promise I'll go to Hell, burn in the lakes of fire, and on and on. I've encountered in excess of 100 different protesters on the picket line over the last half dozen years and have only met two exceptions with whom I could engage in a civil conversation where they didn't call me names or otherwise insult me.
So long as such folks can be kept in their churches and restricted to the picket line, society is okay. That's why we have free speech and freedom of religion--to allow the nuts of society some place to exist. But the minute they acquire political power, the world is in deep trouble. If any of these folks ever get control of some nuclear weapons (and I'm sure out military harbors more than their fair share), all bets are off. Some of them wouldn't give a second thought to dropping the bomb or bombs if they thought it would help bring about the rapture. And we have a president who thinks he can play them along for his benefit (and may believe in the rapture himself--after all he believes he's been chosen by his god, not the electorate for the presidency). His naiveté about controlling his base may get us all into some very hot water.
Posted by: Keanus | July 11, 2006 4:11 PM
I realize many are decrying PZ's methods and I for one think of them as schick and sarcasm. I doubt he'd stand up and call someone much past idiot.
so quit yer whining:-)
he's venting at some idiots.
And likley a few 'One true scotsman' arguments are already in the thread.
Posted by: Chance | July 11, 2006 4:12 PM
Look at it this way: they are clearly getting very very desperate. Their beliefs have failed to bear any fruit whatsoever for millenia, and they are getting quite worried.
Posted by: plunge | July 11, 2006 4:14 PM
These folks are, in fact, simply delusional. Not in the psychiatric sense, however. In the DSM, to diagnose one as delusional they must hold impossible or strange belief systems. If those are held by the culture at large the folks are NOT DELUSIONAL.
I think that should be removed from the definition of delusion and delusional, and perhaps substituted by a measure of strength of the belief. It only goes to source, after all, and not to any underlying pathology that might be associated with it, such as that which leads folk to kidnap young girls off the streets of Utah because of a divine revelation, or to kill four people in your community based on the same. (See Beneath the Banner of Heaven - they only got two of them ...)
Posted by: John M. Price | July 11, 2006 4:16 PM
The Bible is true because the Bible says it's true, right, Petersen? An entire religion based on a meaningless tautology. Yep, that sure sounds convincing to me.
Christianity alone is responsible for billions of pointless, violent deaths over the last two millenia, to say nothing of the institutionalized racism, sexism, homophobia, and general asshattery that still plague our society, and you're trying to tell us that it's a religion of love?
You must really think we're all just a bunch of idiots, here.
Posted by: Dan | July 11, 2006 4:16 PM
The reason we should call these people on their LOONEY ideas is to infact lessen their impact on society. I don't care if it's insulting... it's true! If all they got is "it's in the bible"... well, so?! So is alot of other crazy shit. Embrace it all or none of it.
If I walked around the streets screaming THE END IS COMING! REPENT YOU SINNERS!
People would scream... SHUT AP YOU DEMENTED FUCKWIT!
Posted by: Steve_C | July 11, 2006 4:17 PM
The essence of christianity is the idea that this world is hopeless, and the other world, the TRUE world. Only god can save. There is nothing we can do. The more despaired people feel , the more christianity rocks.
Of course, alternatively, man can feel more confident about his relationship with the world, "at home" within it, and find it more interesting and lovable. They do not turn their back to it, looking forward only to the afterlife. They WANT to take matters in their own hands.
Posted by: Alexander Vargas | July 11, 2006 4:17 PM
I wrote:
M Peterson delivers a long altar call beginning with:
God cannot be around sin? What, he's squeamish or something? Do you really think that this trite little recitation (like, I used to know the Four Spiritual Laws tract too, you know) is going to impress anyone? Do you really think no one here has ever heard it before? Do you think it has some magic power to convince us of THE TRVTH, where lame apologetics do not? (I bet you do -- remember, I used to be one of you. Thank no-god I dumped that schtick.)
I guess you'd be an example of my second category.
Posted by: Steve Watson | July 11, 2006 4:21 PM
Ditto that, Max and Scott. Hey, I 've been known to get hot under the collar when confronting the fundie "mindset" (just ask my wife), but shouting "fuckwit" at people doesn't exactly identify one as a intellectually superior lifeform. That, and it will (a) certainly not change the addressee's beliefs, (b) likely engender sympathy for them by observers, and (c) if done at the wrong time or place (Thanksgiving dinner/church social/Iranian marketplace) get you in either alot of trouble with your friends and family, or killed.
People have a lot of beliefs that I consider strange. And, if asked, I'm more than happy to try and reason with them. But intellectual fascism is a slippery slope. Are you going to shout "stupid fuckwit" at anyone who doesn't agree with your classification of a new fossil discovery at your next scientific meeting?
Posted by: Keith Wolter | July 11, 2006 4:22 PM
I also don't believe PZ would really do what he is telling others to do in this pots. I also don't believe he is 100% sure about all the things he maintains. Maybe he has become some kind of a play actor of himself. Maintaining a blog is, after all, the maintaining of some kind of show.
Posted by: Alexander Vargas | July 11, 2006 4:25 PM
I may be wrong, but isn't christianity and specifically catholicism declining as a global religion? If despair is growing why are fewer people boarding the christian crazy train or infact jumping off it?
The muslim religion is growing however. In correllation to the population growth in asia.
Which could be linked to despair in those countries too.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 11, 2006 4:26 PM
Sin describes an act that violates a moral code of conduct established by God or the state of having committed such a violation.
My apologies for sounding nonchalant about Hell. It's no light matter. I accept the suffering of so many because I do not make the rules and I have no choice. In fact, I do not accept it easily, nor do the Christians mentioned in the article. That is why they created their campaign to begin with -- to tell people what God says. From there, people are obviously free to choose what they want to do with it.
Jesus paid the penalty and now offers that payment as a free gift to those who ask for it. Passively knowing that Jesus did that does not mean anything. How can you receive a gift you don't believe exists?
In my scenario, it's more like I know someone is going to shoot you, guaranteed. I tell you everything you need to know to avoid it -- it's up to you whether you believe me and avoid it or get shot. That's why you have these "fanatics" out there shouting "Hey, you're going to get shot! Here's what you need to know..."
Posted by: M Petersen | July 11, 2006 4:28 PM
Oh c'mon Keith. There is a big difference here. Not that yelling 'stupid fuckwit' is appropriate but fossil discovery and telling people they are going to fry after they die aren't exactly on the same field of rationalism.
Posted by: Chance | July 11, 2006 4:30 PM
Is intellectual fascism intolerance of ignorance and myth?
I don't get it. If someone at the dinner table started rambling some story about
how the world is going to end soon and that you were going to be judged and that
a holy war was coming...
I most definetly would say are you SERIOUS? Are You NUTS?
And I would not debate them unless they showed some kind of ability for introspection.
We're talking about a very specific kind of christian/jew/muslim.
The kind that should be put in their place.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 11, 2006 4:35 PM
Verifiable proof that "Armageddon" has begun...
Hello all,
Here's the key to proving that the rapture and related expectations are complete nonsense based on the failure to understand (or the purposeful confounding of) the ancient Hebrew symbology used to construct all of these prophecies.
Pay close attention, profundity knocks at the door, listen for the key. Be Aware! Scoffing causes blindness...
Did you ever consider that Christianity is the false prophet of the Apocalypse, that Rome is the so-called anti-messiah, and Jesus Christ is the false messiah? The symbolism of seven years (tribulation) would refer to the seven 360-year cycles from the 11th cycle (second temple period) until now, the 17th cycle on the Hebrew calendar. Remember that the prophecies were written by Hebrews, not Romans or other Europeans, and Revelation is a symbolic treatise. Therefore, years are symbols for 360-year cycles on the Hebrew calendar. Likewise, a day symbolizes a literal year and Judgement Day, and Great Day refer to a year long period. The so-called Tribulation is now coming to an end, not starting, and the three faiths of Abraham have all been deceived by Rome during the previous age, which ended in year 2000 (5760). A new age began in 2001 (5761) and now the seventh angel has begun to sound!
Hurricanes Katrina (#11) and Rita (#17) last year provided stunning validation of my res