Pharyngula

Hang on, people, don’t look below the fold if you are easily offended. I’m including a horrific photo that was shown on a magazine cover, one that elicited the following reactions from readers:

“I was SHOCKED”

“I was offended and it made my husband very uncomfortable when I left the magazine on the coffee table”

“Gross, I am sick”

“I had to rip off the cover since I didn’t want it laying around the house”

Are you ready for this?

Here’s the hideous cover in question. Hide the horses! Call in a hazmat team to scrub that image away! Would you believe 25% of that magazine’s readers were offended by the breast on the cover?

I really am shocked at the level of prudery we get in this country. That’s not a prurient photo, it illustrates a perfectly lovely and healthy function, and no one should be harmed by its display.

It does seem a bit unfair that I can flaunt my pale and hairy torso without triggering the hue and cry that tastefully shot baby picture did. I think. Maybe I should try.

Uh-oh. There go all my readers, off to subscribe to babytalk instead.

Come on, this is Minnesota. Almost all of us are this shade of fishbelly pale up here.

Now the real question is, which of those pictures would you rather have left out on your coffee table?

Comments

#1 j
August 4, 2006

Oh, no. So you weren’t kidding when you said you’d start an “all new, all nude self-portrait series”?
#2 Rocky
August 4, 2006

Blatant hairy porno!!!!!
#3 Junk Jungle
August 4, 2006

Honestly, this doesn’t surprise me a single bit. Americans can be incredibly hypocritical when it comes to things like breastfeeding. First, you have the Breastfeeding Mafia that screams bloody murder if a woman elects to not breastfeed her baby, then you have people screaming bloody murder when a woman is shown breastfeeding her baby.

People need to take a step back and see what they’re complaining about. This is the kind of stuff that gets sent out into the international scene and makes us looks like blithering idiots!
#4 Russell
August 4, 2006

There is something very odd about any human(!) who sees something wrong or odd or shameful in a baby suckling at a woman’s breast. Somehow, I think these objectors have forgotten that we are mammals.
#5 quork
August 4, 2006

One word: airbrush.
#6 John Merrick
August 4, 2006

I am not an animal!!!!!

I am a human being!!!!!!
#7 PaulC
August 4, 2006

Junk Jungle:

First, you have the Breastfeeding Mafia that screams bloody murder if a woman elects to not breastfeed her baby

I missed these screams somehow. Perhaps they were muffled under that giant stack of promotional material and samples from Similac and Enfamil.
#8 Auguste
August 4, 2006

I think that this is called for at this moment.
#9 JakeB
August 4, 2006

That picture has been popping up in online ads here and there. My first thought was, “Man, I envy that baby.”
#10 mjs
August 4, 2006

I blame the Sugar Tits mania sweeping the nation.

+++
#11 Alexander Vargas
August 4, 2006

Why on earth are they disgusted by something like that? I feel sorry for those people, they must have been brought up to be inhuman.
Although I’m not sure this meant we HAD to see a PZ’s nipple haha
#12 PaulC
August 4, 2006

I’d like to see some polling numbers before making too much of this. I am still inclined to think that the attitudes expressed in these letters are not representative. You’re always going to have a few prudes who are “shocked” by any display of human skin, and they’re the only ones who will write a letter about it. Are there really large numbers of Americans who would find that image disturbing? Maybe I’m just naive.
#13 oldhippie
August 4, 2006

If you go to any warm beach in Europe, you will see that most of the men and the women wear one piece bathing costumes – the bottom part. No on cares, no on screams, it all seems very normal, and the good thing is women of all ages do it, not just the sexy young ones, there are old women of 80 out there.
No one need get their knickers in a twist about a bit of bare titty, half the population have the full formed kind and the all have nipples.
#14 John Lynch
August 4, 2006

One of the reactions:

“I was offended … [so] … I left the magazine on the coffee table”

Huh?
#15 Tlazolteotl
August 4, 2006

They were talking about this the other day on Rotten.com as well. But we didn’t get PZ-titties there. Heh heh.
#16 Molly, NYC
August 4, 2006

I’m intrigued by the woman who (a) was offended by the cover; (b) nevertheless displayed it on her coffee table; and (c) claims that it made her husband “very uncomfortable.” (Second quote, above.) Uncomfortable in the sense that he was offended too, or uncomfortable in the sense that he disappeared into the bathroom for a half-hour with a bottle of Mazola oil? If the former, what’s it like being married to a man who’s put off by the sight of breasts? Or, more likely, what’s it like having a wife who’s not only a prude, but projects it onto you?
#17 Roger B.
August 4, 2006

Not pierced then?
#18 Troutnut
August 4, 2006

Has anyone asked if the breast on the cover of Baby Talk belonged to a guy? Because that would be disturbing.

Otherwise, what’s the problem?
#19 jay denari
August 4, 2006

Such prudery has, unfortunately, been a major current in the US since the beginning. After all, the Puritans fled Europe in part because they couldn’t deal with the slowly liberalizing society there.

Part of the problem comes from the fact that our nudity laws are a blatant double standard. I, PZ, or any of the guys here can (and probably often do) walk around in public topless, and nobody says a word. But if Molly or any other woman does it, they get arrested. Isn’t that by definition unconstitutional discrimination on the basis of sex?
#20 Dava Jones
August 4, 2006

Everyone needs to relax.

That’s not a breast. It’s a heavily retouched octopus head.

See? There’s no reason to be offended.
#21 dAVE
August 4, 2006

The funny thing about breasts is that they have a dual identity. A lot of the time they are sexual, in that men like to play with them and women like to have them played with by their lovers.

However, as the partner of a currently breastfeeding woman, I can tell you that once they are doing their primary function, feeding a baby, they are no longer sexy for the momma. She’s like, “I’ve been having someone suck milk out of em all day, play with somethin’ else instead.”
#22 Rey Fox
August 4, 2006

“I am still inclined to think that the attitudes expressed in these letters are not representative.”

Well, think of it this way: 25% of readers of a baby magazine about caring for one’s baby, usually utilizing one’s breasts in the process, were offended. Says an awful lot to me.
#23 David
August 4, 2006

I find it amusing that the president of another country was photographed for a news story while talking to a woman who was breastfeeding her baby (uncovered) and no one there thinks it’s an issue, but if a breast is flashed for a split second during a halftime show in the US, there is an indignant uproar. Do a google image search on “hugo chavez” and it should be the 4th image. (safe search needs to be off) The picture may be NSFW in some environments, but was attached to an AP story last year (or the year before, they all are starting to run together).
#24 Azkyroth
August 4, 2006

The funny thing about breasts is that they have a dual identity. A lot of the time they are sexual, in that men like to play with them and women like to have them played with by their lovers.

However, as the partner of a currently breastfeeding woman, I can tell you that once they are doing their primary function, feeding a baby, they are no longer sexy for the momma. She’s like, “I’ve been having someone suck milk out of em all day, play with somethin’ else instead.”

Hasn’t been my experience…
#25 craig
August 4, 2006

Actually, since the early 90s it’s been perfectly legal in NY state for women to go topless, provided they aren’t doing it for commercial reasons, etc.
It’s not common, but some women do go topless on beaches in NY.

And as far as people getting upset by breastfeeding, it seems fairly common. I’ve gotten into plenty of arguments with people who say things like “sure it’s a natural body function, so is taking a shit! They should go in the ladies room if they have to do that!”

Being offended by breastfeeding is a sign of a sick, twisted mind.
#26 quork
August 4, 2006

One of the reactions:

“I was offended … [so] … I left the magazine on the coffee table”

Huh?

.

I’m intrigued by the woman who (a) was offended by the cover; (b) nevertheless displayed it on her coffee table;

Maybe she saw it in a doctor’s office.
#27 Jeff
August 4, 2006

The funny thing about breasts is that they have a dual identity. A lot of the time they are sexual, in that men like to play with them and women like to have them played with by their lovers.

The thing is – the same could be said for many body parts. I like eating, but there are other things I do with my mouth. Should we all go around wearing veils?
#28 King Aardvark
August 4, 2006

That’s sure crazy, there. We’re typically better about that in Canada, especially since we had that court case in 1996 to give women the right to go topless in public.

There are certainly prudes here, too, but I think the reaction would be less.
#29 King Aardvark
August 4, 2006

I’m going to have nightmares of PZ’s hairy nipple for the rest of the month.

Oh, the horror.
#30 Carlie
August 4, 2006

Trust me, breastfeeding anywhere around people is still not considered normal in a lot of the country. I spent two and a half years total breastfeeding babies, and I got a lot more snide comments and rude stares than supportive comments or what should be the normal response of Just Don’t Look At It. And once a woman knows what she’s doing, there isn’t anything flashed to be upset about – I had an older woman once sit down next to me on a bench at the mall and start cooing over the baby without even realizing he was nursing at the time. I admit that was awkward, but I wasn’t used to it yet. In any case, after a few bold trials and smackdowns including being haughtily told by a dept. store cashier that I couldn’t use a completely empty dressing room to nurse, I took to furtively nursing in my car, planning entire day trips around when I could stop at the one store with a mommy room, etc. Not to mention the peer pressure – every time I mentioned any slight trouble with nursing, my own mother would always start with how I should switch to formula.
It’s not easy, I tell ya.
#31 Chuck
August 4, 2006

Frakking idiots. Great gibbering Jeebus. Whadda they think THEY did when they were crapping diapers and puking mother’s milk?

Sigh. Sad that being human is an obscenity …
#32 Keanus
August 4, 2006

Twenty years ago my family and I traveled Down Under to watch Haley’s Comet in the Australian Outback and do other more conventional touristy things. On the way back we stopped over in Tahiti for two days. The Qanta 747′s crew stayed in the same hotel and enjoyed the same pool and beach we did, and the ambiance was just like Oldhippie described. Every female at the pool, including all 14 stewardesses, (but no Americans) sunned themselves in one-piece, bottoms only, bathing suits. It was a bit jarring to this American at first, accustomed as I am to American prudery (not North American, mind you), but within minutes seemd perfectly normal. And the behavior, except for some boorish Americans, was very decorous. We Americans get our knickers in a snit over the most rediculous things; it’s no wonder the rest of the world (with the exception of the Islamic world with which our yahoos have much in common) think we’re bonkers.
#33 scout
August 4, 2006

i definetly vote for the baby shot on the table!!! people shocked by a mammary gland. that’s GLAND…not genitalia…GLAND!!! sheesh.
#34 mjfgates
August 4, 2006

Y’know, I’ve seen women in public wearing bikinis that covered less than that baby does…
#35 plucky punk
August 4, 2006

I think these types of feelings might disappear in a generation or two. Attitudes about breastfeeding are *much* more positive than they used to be (and they still aren’t that positive, so go figure.)

For instance, I just found out that my mother fed me, not even formula, but a mixture of evaporated milk and corn syrup. Gah! Aren’t those the first two ingredients for fudge??? And she was a total hippie college student from the late seventies and everything.

So it’s totally weird to her that I’m breastfeeding. She has no advice to offer (which is kind of a relief, becasue she’s one of those nosy mothers…) at all. But everyone I know in my generation is completely pro-breastfeeding. The fact that the parenting magazine is even pondering why women don’t breastfeed longer (it’s the article the cover is for) I think shows things are starting to change.
#36 CaptainMike
August 4, 2006

People with dirty minds will always find something to be offended about.

Seven years ago I was working for Owl, a kids science and nature magazine here in Canada. Around the time I came on board we published an issue devoted to vampire bats, mosquitoes, leeches and other animals that subsist on blood. The cover proudly proclaimed, in dripping red letters, “This Issue SUCKS!”

We got quite a few letters expressing shock and outrage that we had dared to use the word “sucks” on the cover of a children’s magazine.

I may seem pretty clueless for saying this, but I didn’t even understand what they were complaining about. The only thing that the rest of the editorial staff and I could figure was that the wackjobs thought it was a reference to oral sex.

My proposal that we run an issue on the evolution of the human brain called “Getting Good Head” was not well received.
#37 Matt
August 4, 2006

I thought that’s what they were for! I must be missing a few pages from my manual…
#38 Jim
August 4, 2006

I don’t have any objection to women breast feeding; it is a natural, healthy thing. I just don’t know where to look when they are doing it. I am not going to stare at them; I don’t want to make them feel uncomfortable. I don’t want to only look away, that is almost as bad. Maybe it is a problem on my part, but I don’t like making them feel uncomfortable.

Yes, we are sometimes rather silly in our prudishness. I remember when I was in High School (decades ago). We had a guest lecturer on wolves. He gave a talk and we watched a movie. One of his points was that in the Southern US he couldn’t show the movie. It wasn’t because of the hunting scene in the movie. It wasn’t because a hunter takes a pistol to the head of a wounded wolf and blows the wolf’s brains out. Oh no. (which was rather disturbing, hunting wolves with helicopters and killing them) It was because he had the only film of a wolf baby being born in the wild! (Maybe I could see if he had filmed them making the baby, but giving birth?)

Unfortunately, I am not sure how far we have come in 30 years in some places.
#39 L33tminion
August 4, 2006

I’ve said it before in response to this story: Cute baby, cute boobie (no, I’m not referring to yours, PZ). I’m seriously baffled that anyone has a problem with that.
#40 quork
August 4, 2006

People with dirty minds will always find something to be offended about.

I am offended by that insinuation!
#41 kansas_lib
August 4, 2006

You know, earlier this year I was nursing my youngest in the auditorium bathroom at a gradeschool recital. It wasn’t even during intermission: the poor baby suddenly decided he was starving and had to eat RIGHT NOW. So I mosied on down to the large restrooms with the nice sitting area, found myself a nice couch, and settled down to nurse the baby.

To a chorus of snickers and gasps from the ladies in the restroom (of course, I’m in KS, so it should be expected, right?) “I can’t believe she’s doing that when there are KIDS in here!!”

My GOD! I’m feeding my baby in front of CHILDREN!

On a side note, I’ve received many of those Babytalk magazines, and they quite often show pictures of breastfeeding inside the magazine. Apparently, none of those women have ever opened one???
#42 BrassyDel
August 4, 2006

See, I always think it’s unfair that any man can walk around topless in many places but I can’t! It’s hot during the summer and we haven’t got A/C, so how come I gotta be the only one in the house with a shirt on? :/
#43 Carlie
August 4, 2006

“I just don’t know where to look when they are doing it. I am not going to stare at them; I don’t want to make them feel uncomfortable. I don’t want to only look away, that is almost as bad. Maybe it is a problem on my part, but I don’t like making them feel uncomfortable.”

Just act normal. Easier said than done, I suppose, at least at first. Where would you be looking if she were just holding the baby, or if she were feeding the baby a bottle? I assume that you wouldn’t be staring at the baby (or mom’s breasts) the entire time, but carrying on a normal conversation with eye contact to the mother. Same rules apply. If the woman is doing it in public, she can’t (and most likely doesn’t) expect everyone to act as though she doesn’t exist. Honestly, it just looks like a woman is holding her baby particularly close. There’s nothing funky going on. Even if she has to switch sides in the middle of a conversation, it would be quick and (hopefully) flashless, and you could look away for those few seconds if it makes everyone feel better.
#44 Alex
August 4, 2006

“Somehow, I think these objectors have forgotten that we are mammals.”

Considering I had a 2nd grade teacher claim that sharks were mammals, and argued with me when I told her she was wrong (her criteria for mammalism seemed to be giving birth to live young), I’m not so sure everyone realizes what a mammal is…
#45 Coragyps
August 4, 2006

Cap’n Mike – It’s an age thing, methinks. “That sucks” was very dirty language in 1965 when I was in high school, and children, as you know, should be obscene and not heard. I was a bit taken aback by the rehabilitation of “sucks” myself, what with having used it only away from adults as a kid.

Funny story: at my younger daughter’s Tulane graduation party (June, before Katrina) at Antoine’s in New Orleans, the older daughter’s baby announced his all-consuming hunger. Older daughter no more than started to ask the waiter “Is there a place…” than he took her to a back stairwell with a chair and assigned a junior waiter to “stand guard” so she wouldn’t be disturbed.
#46 ekzept
August 4, 2006

Being offended by breastfeeding is a sign of a sick, twisted mind.

agreed. people make such a fuss. my (first) wife had all kinds of troubles breastfeeding our kids, including some ninny complaining about what she was doing in the middle of a several hour airplane ride.

i think the only thing uncomfortable about bathing in a bottoms only pool of pretty women would be that i would constantly look. i guess those darting, glancing skills would need improving for that context.

the other funny incident happened when hiking with kids up a mountain. as little kids often do with parents, there was a code word for breasts and breastfeeding, one they made up and entirely innocently we just reenforced. well, on this one warm day up the trail, we kept leapfrogging this pair of women, one having a mesh see-through top as well as day pack. fine. makes perfect sense to me. i sure wouldn’t want to wear a bra in that heat and work. but kid is riding on my backpack, sees the mesh top, and says the code word, then gets all excited about it because, apparently, kid realizes other women besides mom have them, too. (he’s maybe two.) the funny part is, the lady realized what the word meant and got all upset about the public recognition and acknowledgement.
#47 Dan
August 4, 2006

And as far as people getting upset by breastfeeding, it seems fairly common. I’ve gotten into plenty of arguments with people who say things like “sure it’s a natural body function, so is taking a shit! They should go in the ladies room if they have to do that!”

This is just plain stupidity. The reason we have bathrooms for taking a grump is because that tends to require special equipment, like plumbing and running water. And also because we don’t really need to be picking up person-poop from the sidewalks all day.

Breast feeding requires nothing more than a baby and a breast, and doesn’t leave any smelly residue.

If the objection to public breast feeding is a result of rampant sexualization, then what does that say about people who have to compare it to taking a public dump?
#48 Rick @ shrimp and grits
August 4, 2006

Somehow, I think these objectors have forgotten that we are mammals.

Funny you should say that. I did a little review (or a rant at, depending on your point of view) of a well-known a Christian school / homeschool curriculum that mentions exactly that.

http://shrimpandgrits.rickandpatty.com/2006/08/02/ace-should-be-put-in-the-hole/

Here’s the relevant quote:

Most scientists classify man as a mammal in the phylum Chordata since he has characteristics similar to those of mammals. Man, however, is a unique being with characteristics that he alone possesses. For this reason, we will not classify man as a mammal. Man is not an animal – he is a unique being who was created in God’s image.

So, some people have not only “forgotten” that we are mammals, but actively suppress the knowledge!
#49 DAS
August 4, 2006

Come on, this is Minnesota. Almost all of us are this shade of fishbelly pale up here.

Hey … I’m that pale (if not more so), and I’m not even from Minnesota (from Sunny So Cal and currently living in FL), my grandmother’s from Minnesota, though, is that close enough?
#50 Steve_C
August 4, 2006

It’s funny that the very thing the breast was meant for… feeding a baby… is obscene.
That’s messed up.

That is a beautiful photo. A beautiful moment.

The world average duration breastfeeding for 4 years, I think.

I think the U.S. average is 6 months. My son is still breastfeeding and he’s 2. Probably start weening him soon. It’s only in the morning and just before bed mostly now.
#51 Carlie
August 4, 2006

I can’t believe that it only now hit me, but do you think that any subconscious problems certain people have might be because nursing breasts fit all the definitions of sexy even more than normal breasts? Big, full, hard – all the things that are erotic signals (ironically those are probably erotic signals precisely because they signal that these breasts can function for your offspring, baby) are out in full force with a nursing mother. Never thought of it because I’m a woman, but perhaps some of the uncomfortable men are having their sexy neurons triggered and they know they “shouldn’t”.
#52 j
August 4, 2006

re: Carlie’s comment above

FuturePundit: Breastfeeding Women Secrete Aphrodisiac Chemosignal
#53 Ithika
August 4, 2006

I’m guessing your nipple ring is on the other breast then, PZ?
#54 steve s
August 4, 2006

Hasn’t been my experience…

Posted by: Azkyroth | August 4, 2006 04:12 PM

BTW, if there’s a baby latched onto one boob, and you latch on to the other, the baby will get Pissed Off.

I only have one data point on that, though.
#55 Bill S
August 4, 2006

I kinda find hairy dudes sexy, PZ.
#56 PZ Myers
August 4, 2006

j: Oh, no, it’s Menstrual Synchrony McClintock — she’s found another phantasmal pheromone to peddle, which I suspect will be as hard to pin down as the other.

Ithika: that would be asymmetric. If I were to have a ring piercing some body part, shouldn’t it be along the midline…somewhere?
#57 Doc Bill
August 4, 2006

You could be the cover, er, person at Half Naked Thursday.

Fame awaits!

http://osbasso.blogspot.com/2005/05/guidelines-for-half-nekkid-thursday.html
#58 PZ Myers
August 4, 2006

I’m really not that hairy, Bill. It’s fairly sparse, and no one is going to confuse me with a teddy bear.

Besides, my thing would be to shave it all off, slick everything down with a thick layer of gelid phosphorescent slime, and sport in the moonlight with a similarly pale, damp, lissome member of the opposite sex, don’t you think?

(There goes the last member of the Pharynguloid fan club. It was getting too crowded here, anyway.)
#59 junk science
August 4, 2006

Never thought of it because I’m a woman, but perhaps some of the uncomfortable men are having their sexy neurons triggered and they know they “shouldn’t”.

Absolutely. It’s like the knee-jerk “OMG MEN BUTTFUCKING IS SOOOO DISGUSTING I DON’T THINK IT’S AROUSING AT ALL” reaction. Hell, I’m getting uncomfortable with myself for my own reaction to that picture, so I sympathize. Not that I think that makes it anyone else’s problem, obviously.

What really offends me is the insult to the intelligence that is the display of a nipple-less, stretchmark-free, perfectly hemispherical tit ostensibly attached to a lactating, recently pregnant woman.
#60 Lauren
August 4, 2006

All of a sudden I feel really…. hot.
#61 scarshapedstar
August 4, 2006

Some lady’s husband was “uncomfortable” at the sight of a nude female breast?

Something seems wrong there…
#62 junk science
August 4, 2006

He’s uncomfortable with how much he wants to be that baby right now.
#63 Mataha
August 4, 2006

That was funny! I sprayed a mouthful of water all over my keyboard.

My kids are grown now, but I am still the topic of conversation around my large, right-wing, bible thumping Alabama family b/c I had the audacity to discreetly breastfeed infants in public (my living room) when others were present.

Its only one more in a long list of personal flaws as I am an atheist, a scientist, an environmentalist, a liberal, and (shockingly for a mother!)a successful business person who escaped the backwoods of Alabama after becoming an E.O. Wilson fan. Figured if he could do it, so could I.
#64 CaptainMike
August 4, 2006

I dug up the original AP story on this, and I’m sure nobody here will be surprised to learn that it gets even stupider

“One mother who didn’t like the cover explains she was concerned about her 13-year-old son seeing it.

‘I shredded it,’ said Gayle Ash, of Belton, Texas, in a telephone interview. ‘A breast is a breast — it’s a sexual thing. He didn’t need to see that.’

‘I’m totally supportive of it — I just don’t like the flashing,’ she says. “I don’t want my son or husband to accidentally see a breast they didn’t want to see.’

Here’s a newsflash, lady: there is no such thing, especially in the case of your son. I can’t speak for anyone else, but at the age of 13 I would have loved to have seen that cover. It probably would have wound up in my bedroom at some point.

On a related topic, my friend Dave was recently in a Kitchener, Ontario and he says they now have signs up in a lot of public areas saying “Breastfeeding is not only permitted here, but encouraged.”
#65 Talen Lee
August 4, 2006

First, the idea of smooth, glow-in-the-dark women is remarkably interesting. So I don’t think you’re completely freaky, PZ.

That said, speaking as someone who seems to have lost that universal ability to See Babies As Adorable, I can’t help but say I do, personally, find breastfeeding visually unpleasant. But… I also find tight leather pants on exceptionally large posteriors to be visually unpleasant.

EVEN IF you find the effect of breastfeeding to be odd or disgusting, I don’t think it’s ‘your’ position to determine the moral viewing content for everyone else, when we are talking about a completely natural process. I could whinge about this at length, but I’ll not, in the interest of avoiding looking like ranting idiot.

In summary, though, the idea of censoring breastfeeding when self-censorship (ie, DON’T LOOK) works just fine ticks me off no end.
#66 Karmen
August 4, 2006

Way up there, Jay says:

I, PZ, or any of the guys here can (and probably often do) walk around in public topless, and nobody says a word.

Um… that’s what you think. They just don’t say it loud enough.
#67 BlueIndependent
August 4, 2006

I don’t see what the problem is. The poor baby is obviously just having a simple chat with his mother.

I hate “it could be worse” arguments, but at least the outraged readers are in a super minority on this issue. Best not to let the 25% composed of bible-thumping boobie ayatolas get all the airplay.
#68 Orange
August 4, 2006

Yeah, where are the blue veins and the stretch marks? That ain’t a natural lactating breast.
#69 Rob G
August 4, 2006

Dude. Push-ups. Trust me.
#70 Graculus
August 4, 2006

So, some people have not only “forgotten” that we are mammals, but actively suppress the knowledge!

There’s an entry over at FStDT where one FFF was arguing that humans *were* mammals… and that mammals *weren’t* animals.

It was even worse being there for that one.
#71 Davita
August 4, 2006

Some random smart guy i ran into told me that he is disgusted that Americans have traded restraint for restrictions and it is ASTOUNDING what is actually offending people in THIS day and age. It was the most profound thing i have heard come out of a random encounter LATELY.

I mean… it’s just a boobie… it’s not going to hurt anyone.
#72 Carlie
August 4, 2006

I mean… it’s just a boobie… it’s not going to hurt anyone.

Sure, it’s all fun and games until someone pokes their eye out…
#73 Heidi
August 4, 2006

In response to Captain Mike:

That’s encouraging to hear, since when I lived in Kitchener (late 80s-early 90s) breastfeeding publically was actively discouraged. Being a West Coast sort of girl, I was accustomed to nursing whenever and wherever, not to have to ask for the mommy’s room at the mall to be unlocked, or to sit in a bathroom stall, or go into another room in my own home.

I weep for these sad repressed people – only because their prudish attitudes affect so many of the rest of us.
#74 Troutnut
August 4, 2006

You know, I think that calling it beautiful is almost as silly as calling it obscene. There may be something cool about it, but I don’t know that the concept of “beauty” was ever intended to describe the excretion of bodily fluids. Nor does it typically descibe drinking. So I’m not sure where it fits into a description of drinking bodily fluids.

Why can’t it just be a beauty-neutral thing, like sneezing? I will look at somebody very strangely if they tell me sneezing is obscene. But I’ll also be puzzled if they think it’s beautiful.

*achoo*

Excuse me while I wipe this beauty off…
#75 Paul
August 4, 2006

I bet all 25% of those readers who were offended voted for Bush too. Its the type…..just scary if you think about it.
#76 Nanners Ogg
August 4, 2006

As a mother who has breasted, I’m more concerned that the Mystic-Tanned cantaloupe that baby is sitting in front of is supposed to be a breast. As a friend of mine said, it might as well be a flesh-coloured balloon. It wouldn’t surprise me at all to learn that the root cause of offense is due to the fact that most mother aren’t flawlessly airbrushed, but rather exhausted and smelling slightly of spoiled milk.
#77 Dan
August 4, 2006

Carlie:

I mean… it’s just a boobie… it’s not going to hurt anyone.

Sure, it’s all fun and games until someone pokes their eye out…

And then it’s just fun.
#78 stoney
August 5, 2006

In response to;
I am not an animal!!!!!

I am a human being!!!!!!

Posted by: John Merrick | August 4, 2006 03:14 PM
/quote

You’re mindlessly invincibly pig ignorant, Mr. Vegtable.
Humans are animals, ignoramous. Please don’t spawn.
#79 PeteK
August 5, 2006

In European counties such as the Netherlands, people are offended if they DON’T see such stuff on magazine covers!
#80 Older
August 5, 2006

Jim: You don’t know where to look when they’re doing it (breastfeeding)? How about wherever you look when they aren’t doing it?
#81 Mike Crichton
August 5, 2006

My nipple’s not obscene either. Livejournal said so!
#82 ArtK
August 5, 2006

Uh, stoney…

You’re mindlessly invincibly pig ignorant, Mr. Vegtable.
Humans are animals, ignoramous. Please don’t spawn.

You might want to check the poster’s signature. John Merrick was the Elephant Man… the tagline from that movie was “I am a man, not an animal.” You might want to take a quick look in the mirror before calling names.
#83 SSciaraf@u.arizona.edu
August 5, 2006

Holy God. That is one nasty photo. Don’t ever do that again!!!
#84 Evan
August 5, 2006

It wasn’t 25% of the readers; it was 25% of the people who felt moved to write letters to the editor about the cover.

That’s not a representative sample.
#85 CaptainMike
August 5, 2006

Actually it was 25% of the 4,000 people who were contacted in a reader survey, and all they said was that it made them uncomfortable. It still isn’t a representative sample of the mag’s readers or the American public in general though.
#86 SEF
August 5, 2006

no one is going to confuse me with a teddy bear.

That’s a good thing:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5240832.stm
#87 craig
August 5, 2006

It’s beautiful because it’s a mom caring for her baby, and it’s a warm, tender moment.
It’s beautiful because we ARE mammals so we’re programmed to think it’s beautiful. Same reason we like little baby things with big heads and eyes like babies and kittens, and same reason a mama cat nursing her kittens is a beautiful sight.
If we were birds, we’d think a photo of a mom and dad vomiting into their waiting babies’ mouths was beautiful.

Man… the things I think of at 4:30 am… and I don’t even do drugs anymore.
#88 zzz
August 5, 2006

Oh the hypocrisy. Ay ai ai, it burns.

We live in a world where women’s bodies are defined as objects for adult male consumption/husband’s property. Women in our culture are there to be stared at, groped, wolf-whistled, their bodies rendered in distorted and unrealistic ways, basically just used for male benefit – all in the name of and justified by male biology. You know, “we can’t help it, it’s evolution turns us into such jerks”.

And then you act all suprised when people (but only the sort of people you disapprove of, unlike you marvelously advanced liberals) get themselves wound up in a bunch about something which actually is normal for the woman’s body and useful for the infant, ie breastfeeding.

Join the dots people. Sheesh.
#89 zzz
August 5, 2006

Go here if you need the background:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/07/what_is_a_good_erotic_exclamat.php
#90 Phoenician in a time of Romans
August 5, 2006

First, the idea of smooth, glow-in-the-dark women is remarkably interesting. So I don’t think you’re completely freaky, PZ.

Er, he just said “a similarly pale, damp, lissome member of the opposite sex”.

He didn’t specify species. Given that this is PZ Myers…
#91 gmm
August 5, 2006

No veins no stretch marks when I nursed.

All good until the Booby Fairy came and took the boobies away from the short kid.

She took them away from mommy too……

Will someone explain how THAT was fair?

My two cents on this- bite me. If you cannot as a grown up person figure out that breasts are little milk repositories after a baby is born, then you need to go to a farm and figure out how babies happen, how they get into the world, and what they eat as young mammals.

Then you need to shovel some shit and get over your pretentious little princess self.

Looking at that breast I am just a wee bit jealous- I would like mine back. I still remember with fondness walking around the corner and hitting the wall- with a BOOB!!! I was so proud and excited!!!
#92 makhita
August 5, 2006

What pisses me off most is that if it had been a picture of someone pointing a gun at a fellow human, it would have totally acceptable front cover material. Violence is ok, bare skin is not.
#93 craig
August 5, 2006

Oh the hypocrisy. Ay ai ai, it burns.

We live in a world where women’s bodies are defined as objects for adult male consumption/husband’s property. Women in our culture are there to be stared at, groped, wolf-whistled, their bodies rendered in distorted and unrealistic ways, basically just used for male benefit – all in the name of and justified by male biology. You know, “we can’t help it, it’s evolution turns us into such jerks”.

And then you act all suprised when people (but only the sort of people you disapprove of, unlike you marvelously advanced liberals) get themselves wound up in a bunch about something which actually is normal for the woman’s body and useful for the infant, ie breastfeeding.

Join the dots people. Sheesh.

ummm… I think you’re a little confused. It would be hypocrisy if liberals were the ones who objectify women and consider them men’s property. We aren’t.
It’s conservatives who consider women men’s property, and it’s conservatives who get upset about things like breastfeeding in public. It’s conservatives who feel that a woman’s body is a sexual toy for men, and that’s why they think a woman breastfeeding a child is “dirty.”

We connected the dots a long, long time ago, zzz… glad to see you’re halfway there – but you’re still just a bit confused.
#94 craig
August 5, 2006

awww crap. The thingie only italicized part of what I was quoting.

please understand that in my post above, only the words from “ummm…” and afterwards are mine, the rest is a quote I am responding to.
#95 George
August 5, 2006

PZ, there are lots of places on the Internet selling pasties (glue included!). Hint, hint.

http://www.flirtylingerie.com/sisepa.html
#96 Elliott Grasett
August 5, 2006

As those two Canadian satirists, Bowser & Blue put it:

“Why are they busting the breast?
As a mammal I don’t understand;
If there’s part of the body that does only good
It must be the Mammary gland!”
#97 marc
August 5, 2006

Did I miss something or did Jason not make a stupid reply to this item?
(signed) marc
#98 Debbie Chinique
August 5, 2006

kansas_lib: “I can’t believe she’s doing that when there are KIDS in here!!”

I had a similar experience in NJ at a Chuck-E-Cheese where a woman sitting at a booth near me complained loudly in a disgusted tone “Ugh, that’s inappropriate in front of children!”

Covering up or acting hush-hush actually creates a taboo out of something that is really no big deal. I’m glad to see this mentioned here.
#99 Darren
August 5, 2006

Top-Tip: PZ, the next time a bible-thumper comes your way, show them your pallid abdomen and they will be immediately convinced that THERE IS NO GOD!

Seriously, I love the expression on the kid’s face; as if it is engaging in the most awesome thing possible which for a child, I guess it is.
#100 Kagehi
August 5, 2006

What pisses me off most is that if it had been a picture of someone pointing a gun at a fellow human, it would have totally acceptable front cover material. Violence is ok, bare skin is not.

Someone ran a flikr series, which involved about 10 pictures of children maimed, injured or being trained as 8-9 year olds to maim and injure others with guns, and 3 pictures with nude kids, in simple, every day activities, like playing in a plastic pool, then asked, “Guess which of these actually offend me”. The fundies would probably be pretend offense by all of them, while secretly finding the, “lets teach the kids how to be soldiers”, ones “acceptable”. For me, it was saddened for the injured, offended at the ones teaching them to kill people, and thought, “yeah, who cares, but I hope some imbicil doesn’t arrest them for posting them on the grounds of pedophilia”, for the rest. So.. Maybe in the sense the last few offended me in terms of the reaction I “knew” some asses would have to them too.. But that is basically the same sort of discomfort most people probably have to this cover. They ask themselves, “Am I supposed to see or be offended by that, and if I am not, how many people will hate me for not thinking its bad?”

That said, I think that anyone that “requires” you take a child, with an incomplete immune system, and breast feed them in a place that no *sane* person would *ever* consider selling food to an adult, should be charged with child endangerment. I mean come one people, these are the most vulnerable members of society and because you are a prudish idiot, you want the mother to expose the child to a place that may have viruses and other microbes of inspecific and dangerous types on “ever” surface and still active “in the air”, not to mention in an environment that, unlike open sunlight, is confined, concentrated and not exposed to UV radiation that would normally kill it in minutes… I know people are stupid, but the only thing stupider would be suggesting they wash the baby in a toilet. I am greatly surprised there are not more medical issues from this.
#101 Mnemosyne
August 5, 2006

I missed these screams somehow.

You’re lucky — I have a friend who was unable to breast-feed for more than a month, so she had to switch to formula. From the way some of those other mothers acted, you’d think she was giving the kids rat poison.
#102 Nelson Muntz, aka Whiney Titty Baby
August 5, 2006

Ha Ha!
#103 A
August 5, 2006

It’s not 25% of the population who’s offended.

It’s 57%.

http://www.parenting.com/parenting/babytalk/article/0,19840,1215318,00.html
See the second page.
#104 Eric Paulsen
August 5, 2006

Apparently, given the attacks on science this country is experiencing, most folks think that the biological reason breasts developed is to sell beer and populate music videos. The fact that they secrete milk should be a clue to their function but why use common sense when you can feign outrage to score points with your oppressively conservative community. Now if they dispensed beer…
#105 newbroom
August 5, 2006

I can’t help but think about National Geographic.
#106 Mena
August 5, 2006

Did I miss something or did Jason not make a stupid reply to this item?
(signed) marc
Like all brave conservatives he’s probably blogging about it on his no-comments-allowed blog. Anyone bored enough today to feel like checking?
#107 DG
August 5, 2006

I don’t have a problem as long as Mom isn’t offended when I tap Junior on the shoulder and say “Mind If I cut in”?
#108 Ann Bartow
August 5, 2006

Actually I don’t belive for a minute that 25% of Babytalk readers were offended by that cover. It’s a free magazine chock full of ads and dubious “news” stories that manage to promote lots of their advertisers’ products. The Babytalk editors figured out how to get lots of free publicity in the blogosphere, and I am sure they are very grateful to you for this post.
#109 George Cauldron
August 5, 2006

My mother breastfed all four of us back in the 50′s and 60′s, primarily because she had a doctor who was very progressive for the time, but she did get a lot of flack for it. The best/worst story I remember was that one of her best friends, a devout Mormon, told my mom she’d never breastfeed her kids because it’s ‘unnatural’.

I know, kind of stops the brain dead in its tracks.
#110 Tracy
August 5, 2006

As a mother of two healthy children, I will recommend breastfeeding to any woman I know who is planning on having children, or is pregnant. I did a ton of research on the subject when my own family kept pushing the benefits of certain formulas to me. Frankly, nothing man made can come close to the benefits of nursing a baby. The benefits most infants get from breastfeeding are too good to pass up.

And ladies, did you know you can loose that pregnancy weight by breastfeeding? You can! After my first pregnancy, I dropped a full 40 lbs. I hadn’t weighted that little since Junior High School. Breastfeeding also tells the body that you already have an infant, and may hald the menstral cycle. I think that was the best part.

So not only the infant, but the mother, benefits from breastfeeding. Why? Because it’s natural. Breast is best, most hospitals will advise. (Just like more and more hospitals are now recommending against circumcising boys)

And to those who feel uncomfortable seeing a lady nursing, they can just not look. I had absolutely no problem breastfeeding in front of my father, my grandparents, or my friends. My baby, my choice. Sure, they absolutely refused to look at me. My father (a born again virgin, really!) made certain remarks, and my grandparents never came to visit again until my son was weaned, but still. I’m not about to let anyone tell me what to do.

And as for nursing in public… all I ever took with me was a blanket, and wore shirts where I could easily slide down the strap. The few times someone made a remark, I asked them plainly “What can you really see?” When they couldn’t find a decent answer, they left me alone. And yes, that including breastfeeding in parks and restaurants. Even at a theme park.
#111 Mike Crichton
August 6, 2006

Tracy wrote:

Beastfeeding also tells the body that you already have an infant, and may hald the menstral cycle. I think that was the best part.

My catholic big sister has eight kids, and has nursed her offspring (two at a time, even!)literally every day for the past 17 years. Methinks this might be an urban legend.
#112 RavenT
August 6, 2006

It can work as birth control when the mother doesn’t reliably have enough calories to support both breastfeeding and reproduction, and often does in parts of the world where nutrition isn’t so abundant as here. I wouldn’t count on it here, though–I know someone who relied on it while breastfeeding her second child. As a result, she ended up breastfeeding her third child, too.
#113 Azkyroth
August 6, 2006

Yeah, I think I recall reading statistics on the contraceptive effectiveness of breastfeeding, and while the actual numbers escape me I believe it’s in the same league as pulling out. Translation: don’t fucking count on it.

As a nitpick, Tracey, it’s not necessarily the case that no technology will ever be able to replicate or exceed the benefits of breast milk. It is, however, certainly that case that we aren’t even close to that point yet.
#114 Paul W.
August 6, 2006

I don’t have a problem as long as Mom isn’t offended when I tap Junior on the shoulder and say “Mind If I cut in”?

Mom?

Your mom lets you do that? Weird.

(Mine says it tickles too much; maybe it’s the moustache.)
#115 Jesurgislac
August 6, 2006

There are some new icons in the gallery of icons banned by LJ Abuse in pursuit of Six Apart’s anti-breastfeeding policy. Treating breastfeeding is obscene appears to be the new corporate trend.
#116 Eliza
August 6, 2006

Does anyone remember the controversy when Janet Jackson had her top ripped off by Justin Timberlake in some concert or other in the US? Maybe it wasn’t so, but it was portrayed by our media (in the UK) as being the biggest scandal ever in America. We were shown clips of people being interviewed, criticizing Ms Jackson and saying things like ‘I can’t believe she did that, it’s disgusting. She’s let the whole country down. What will people round the world think of us?’ Accompanied by lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Meanwhile, everyone here was wondering whether they’d cut the clip early, before ‘the horrific event’ happened. She didn’t even show her nipple – she had nipple jewelry covering it – that constitutes being fully dressed for a night out in some parts of the UK! Of all the things that are giving the US a bad name at the moment, a pop star showing a bit of skin is way down the list.

If they think THAT’s the thing that’s going to show their country in a bad light, then they are doing themselves a bigger disservice than everything else put together.

This wasn’t meant as an anti-US rant – we have plenty to be ashamed of here in the UK too, and you have a lot to be proud about. It was just meant as an example of how peoples views of what is ‘shocking’ just seems to be totally out of sync with what actually is shocking.
#117 Eclogite
August 6, 2006

I’m not at all surprised by those reactions, but I would’ve thought they came from people that didn’t subscribe to the magazine. That was a little surprising.

My wife has nursed both our boys for over a year each and I’m certain she’ll do the same for the 3rd that is due next month. Not once has any one dared comment while we’re out in public and she is feeding the baby. This country can be pretty screwy: We allow images of horrific violence to be broadcast on TV and sold in video games, but just the slightest hint of nudity or a woman’s breast send people into a frantic tizzy (witness the Janet Jackson Superbowl debacle).
#118 NelC
August 6, 2006

I mean… it’s just a boobie… it’s not going to hurt anyone.

Oh, yeah? Tell that to Woody Allen:

http://www.subcin.com/subart177.JPG
#119 Stephanie
August 6, 2006

Jim said, on August 4th:

“I don’t have any objection to women breast feeding; it is a natural, healthy thing. I just don’t know where to look when they are doing it. I am not going to stare at them; I don’t want to make them feel uncomfortable. I don’t want to only look away, that is almost as bad. Maybe it is a problem on my part, but I don’t like making them feel uncomfortable.”

Jim, when you see a woman breastfeeding, smile at her, look her in the eye and wish her a good day.

Get it?

Treat her just like you would any other woman.

I breastfed my two daughters for more than two years each. They are healthy, happy and both are extremely smart. The rest of society needs to recognize that women who breastfeed are doing a service to society by producing healthier children. And furthermore, breastfeeding reduces the chance for breast cancer, so women who breast feed are lowering future health care costs for themselves as well.

Men who support women who breastfeed should stand up and say so.

And for people who don’t support women breastfeeding without shame: Stop this objectifying women by making breasts only for sexual pleasure (yours) and get your minds out of the gutter.

And to those who say, breastfeed in private — like a bathroom — I say, if you will join me in the toilet stall for your lunch, I will hold the door closed so no one sees you.

Get it?
#120 Robin Grant
August 6, 2006

My wife breastfed our two daughters for at least 18 months each. And she did it everywhere, on the subway, in restaurants, wherever. No ‘tea towel’ no BS. and no one ever really even saw a nipple. She is one of the militant ‘I DARE you to tell me I can’t feed my baby here!’ moms. And I support her 100%.

I am bewildered at the mindset that equates breastmilk with urination. Some one had said, ‘I should get to pee on anything if women get to feed in public.’ Huh? She’s not squirting breastmilk on everything, it’s going right down the baby’s gullet. And how do men maintain the doublethink that shaking mostly naked titties in a guys face is acceptable but using them for their designed purpose is disgusting?! Maybe they didn’t get enough breastfeeding when they were kids…

Anyway. When I spot women breastfeeding, and most of the time it’s difficult to detect as it’s done so discreetly, I look the mom straight in the eye and beam a huge smile at them.

My girls are 3 and 4 now and they are way smarter than every other child their age in our region. Our friends kids that were breastfed are also quite smarter.

For the good of society women must breastfeed their babies everywhere they go.
#121 D Mitchell
August 6, 2006

I nursed my son for just over 3 yrs. It takes real creativity to discretely nurse a toddler, but it’s doable. When he became so casual that he would munch instead of drink (while talking at the same time), I suggested he was done and he agreed. This was actually fairly early, even though he’d nursed only at bedtime for a year. I was willing to let it go on for one major reason – once the benefits had been fulfilled – and that was that as long as I was producing milk mosquitoes would not bite me. I kid you not. It was the only time in my life that I was not preferred insect food.
Breastfeeding is cheaper, cleaner, simpler, safer and has successfully nourished all of humankind until maybe 65ish years ago. Formula feeding is just a burp in history.
#122 The Yeti
August 6, 2006

Breast feeding is the job they have evolved…ah, I think I see the problem the 25% have.
#123 Amit Joshi
August 6, 2006

Good one, Yeti! Took me a couple of readings to get it, I admit.

And, PZ, I have to say your hairy torso is certainly obscene, and would make anyone uncomfortable.
#124 David
August 7, 2006

I have yet to get an answer to the question: why is it more harmful to behold a nipple than to behold a beheading? I unfortunately was exposed to the latter on a prine time news show a few years ago and have been unable to purge the memory (I truly expected the newsfolks to show some delicacy on that item. silly me). Nipple OTOH give me pleasure, not even necessarily of a sexual nature, mostly of an aesthetic nature. Women are just beautiful.

And why I decided to respond? G4TV is blurring its cartoon game shorts. Cartoons! That it only shows at midnight. They are only nudity, not even sexually suggestive. What gives with that?
#125 Mark J
August 7, 2006

Well, I voted for Bush and I am not offended in the least by the cover….so lets not overgeneralize here.
#126 AndyS
August 7, 2006

Question for the breastfeeders who have emphasized how “discreet” they have been: why be so discreet? Sure, no need to take out a breast and wave it around, but you make me think of kids sneeking a peek at a “naughty” magazine in junior high. You are an adult doing a primary adult function. Just do it naturally and give other people the chance to go about their business as adults too. The vast majority of us don’t care and support the right of mothers to feed their babies naturally. And if you make a few people uncomfortable, well, that’s a what progress is all about.
#127 Judy L.
August 8, 2006

Stephanie: you’re right on target. I really don’t understand why people think that babies shouldn’t be allowed to eat in public. Nobody else having lunch in a mall food court is going to be told to take their meal into the washroom.

It has been legal for many years in Ontario, Canada for both men and women to be topless in public (don’t forget your sunblock).

One thought about the mag cover shot: who says that the mound of flesh that the baby is mouthing is a breast anyway? Without a surrounding body for contour context or an areolar/nipple complex, that mound could be anything.
#128 Aniko
August 8, 2006

Re: suck

Some musings on the possible origin and related (historical) vulgarity of the term:

http://www.slate.com/id/2146866

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0409d&L=ads-l&P=25889

(a bit hard to read)

One of the suggestions (in the slate article) is that it might come from “it sucks hind teat”, so that would put us right on topic
#129 rottenmac
August 9, 2006

Holy Zombie Jesus, man! Shave that shit RIGHT NOW ! ! !

Some of us are trying to drink.
#130 Evolving Squid
September 20, 2007

Photoshop a rifle into the baby’s hand and photoshop in some expired desert dwellers and nobody will say a word.
#131 BaldApe
September 20, 2007

I foresee a high school biology class in the not-too-distant future, where a student protests that he/she is not a mammal, because only animals would do something so gross.