…and this is a 
List of Hitler quotes — he was quite the vocal Catholic
Category: Creationism • History • Religion
Posted on: August 23, 2006 4:25 PM, by PZ Myers
Douglas Theobald passed along an interesting collection of quotes from that atheist evolutionist, Adolph Hitler. It's particularly interesting the he outlawed atheist and freethought groups in 1933.
It's a long list of quotes, so I'll tuck it below the fold.
"The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement) was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."
[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]
"I have followed [the Church] in giving our party program the character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it."
[Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, _The Voice of Destruction_, pp. 239-40]
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed."
[Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on his personal Christian feelings. Published in "My New Order", quoted in Freethought Today April 1990]
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]
"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125]
"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]
"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]
"Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another... while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.309]
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"
[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]
"Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, p. 171]
"I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 1]
"I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 2]
"...the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party... was to assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]
"As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]
"Political parties has nothing to do with religious problems, as long as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the scheming of political parties."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]
"For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of his people must always remain inviolable; or else has no right to be in politics, but should become a reformer, if he has what it takes!
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]
"In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and well-planned."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]
"It [Christian Social Party] recognized the value of large-scale propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological instincts of the broad masses of its adherents."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]
"If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked among the great minds of our people."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3, about the leader of the Christian Social movement]
"Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]
"I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]
"Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]
"I soon realized that the correct use of propaganda is a true art which has remained practically unknown to the bourgeois parties. Only the Christian- Social movement, especially in Lueger's time achieved a certain virtuosity on this instrument, to which it owed many of its success."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 6]
"Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 7, reflecting on World War I]
"The more abstractly correct and hence powerful this idea will be, the more impossible remains its complete fulfillment as long as it continues to depend on human beings... If this were not so, the founders of religion could not be counted among the greatest men of this earth... In its workings, even the religion of love is only the weak reflection of the will of its exalted founder; its significance, however, lies in the direction which it attempted to give to a universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]
"To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]
"The fight against syphilis demands a fight against prostitution, against prejudices, old habits, against previous conceptions, general views among them not least the false prudery of certain circles. The first prerequisite for even the moral right to combat these things is the facilitation of earlier marriage for the coming generation. In late marriage alone lies the compulsion to retain an institution which, twist and turn as you like, is and remains a disgrace to humanity, an institution which is damned ill-suited to a being who with his usual modesty likes to regard himself as the 'image' of God."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]
"Parallel to the training of the body a struggle against the poisoning of the soul must begin. Our whole public life today is like a hothouse for sexual ideas and simulations. Just look at the bill of fare served up in our movies, vaudeville and theaters, and you will hardly be able to deny that this is not the right kind of food, particularly for the youth...Theater, art, literature, cinema, press, posters, and window displays must be cleansed of all manifestations of our rotting world and placed in the service of a moral, political, and cultural idea."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10, echoing the Cultural Warfare rhetoric of the Religious Right]
"But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]
"While both denominations maintain missions in Asia and Africa in order to win new followers for their doctrine-- an activity which can boast but very modest success compared to the advance of the Mohammedan faith in particular-- right here in Europe they lose millions and millions of inward adherents who either are alien to all religious life or simply go their own ways. The consequences, particularly from a moral point of view, are not favorable."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]
"The great masses of people do not consist of philosophers; precisely for the masses, faith is often the sole foundation of a moral attitude. The various substitutes have not proved so successful from the standpoint of results that they could be regarded as a useful replacement for previous religious creeds. But if religious doctrine and faith are really to embrace the broad masses, the unconditional authority of the content of this faith is the foundation of all efficacy."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]
"Due to his own original special nature, the Jew cannot possess a religious institution, if for no other reason because he lacks idealism in any form, and hence belief in a hereafter is absolutely foreign to him. And a religion in the Aryan sense cannot be imagined which lacks the conviction of survival after death in some form. Indeed, the Talmud is not a book to prepare a man for the hereafter, but only for a practical and profitable life in this world."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11]
"The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11]
"....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11, precisely echoing Martin Luther's teachings]
"Faith is harder to shake than knowledge, love succumbs less to change than respect, hate is more enduring than aversion, and the impetus to the mightiest upheavals on this earth has at all times consisted less in a scientific knowledge dominating the masses than in a fanaticism which inspired them and sometimes in a hysteria which drove them forward."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]
"The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]
"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]
"All in all, this whole period of winter 1919-20 was a single struggle to strengthen confidence in the victorious might of the young movement and raise it to that fanaticism of faith which can move mountains."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]
"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]
"Of course, even the general designation 'religious' includes various basic ideas or convictions, for example, the indestructibility of the soul, the eternity of its existence, the existence of a higher being, etc. But all these ideas, regardless of how convincing they may be for the individual, are submitted to the critical examination of this individual and hence to a fluctuating affirmation or negation until emotional divination or knowledge assumes the binding force of apodictic faith. This, above all, is the fighting factor which makes a breach and opens the way for the recognition of basic religious views."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]
"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]
"A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]
"It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]
"That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created?"
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]
"For the greatest revolutionary changes on this earth would not have been thinkable if their motive force, instead of fanatical, yes, hysterical passion, had been merely the bourgeois virtues of law and order."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]
"It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture- race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]
"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]
"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 5]
"For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant changes in its outward structure? ...Here, too, we can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas... it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of a faith."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 5]
"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 10]
"In the ranks of the movement [National Socialist movement], the most devout Protestant could sit beside the most devout Catholic, without coming into the slightest conflict with his religious convictions. The mighty common struggle which both carried on against the destroyer of Aryan humanity had, on the contrary, taught them mutually to respect and esteem one another."
[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 10]
"For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'
[Adolf Hitler's prayer, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 2 Chapter 13]
"The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life"
[Adolph Hitler, in a speech to the Reichstag on March 23, 1933]
"ATHEIST HALL CONVERTED
Berlin Churches Establish Bureau to Win Back Worshippers
Wireless to the New York Times.
BERLIN, May 13. - In Freethinkers Hall, which before the Nazi resurgence was the national headquarters of the German Freethinkers League, the Berlin Protestant church authorities have opened a bureau for advice to the public in church matters. Its chief object is to win back former churchgoers and assist those who have not previously belonged to any religious congregation in obtaining church membership.
The German Freethinkers League, which was swept away by the national revolution, was the largest of such organizations in Germany. It had about 500,000 members ..."
[New York Times, May 14, 1933, page 2, on Hitler's outlawing of atheistic and freethinking groups in Germany in the Spring of 1933, after the Enabling Act authorizing Hitler to rule by decree]
"I go the way that Providence dictates with the assurance of a sleepwalker."
[Adolf Hitler, Speech, 15 March 1936, Munich, Germany.]
"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life...."
[Adolf Hitler, Berlin, February 1, 1933]
"Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the *poison of immorality* which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of *liberal excess* during the past ... (few) years."
[The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]
I can imagine a few objections that will be raised.
Objection! Hitler was no true Christian.
Reply: None of them are.
Objection! Christians don't commit genocide.
Reply: Look up the Albigensians, review your history of the Crusades, and what about the Jews of Spain? Did Darwin coin the word "pogrom"?
Objection! Hitler was merely cynically manipulating the German people by using their beliefs in God.
Reply: I'd say something similar of his misuse of scientific theory.
Objection! You're doing the same thing we are, only instead of blaming Darwinism, you're blaming Christianity.
Reply: No, I think humans have done evil throughout their history, and are always willing to grab any convenient rationalization for their behavior, whether it's science or religion or twinkies. Science doesn't dictate morality, and it's also rather clear that religion does a piss-poor job of it, too.
Objection! But evolution is a scientific theory that has more rhetorical and philosophical power than mere religion, and therefore must bear a greater weight of responsibility.
Reply: I don't think the kind of people who blame mass murder on evolution will actually make this argument. Still, I'd just say what is, is. Science describes it and explains it, but doesn't tell us what we should do with it.
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Comments
You might find another objection based on the book 'Table Talk' which is purportedly Hitler relaxed with very close friends and cohorts in the movement. There he is said to deny Christendom as something to manipulate. (By supposed actual quotes.)
Personally, I am not too sure I'd weight that greatly, but it must be part of the record.
Posted by: John M. Price | August 23, 2006 4:43 PM
Adolf, not Adolph.
Posted by: Roman | August 23, 2006 4:51 PM
Never let facts stand in the way of a good story.
Posted by: Ryogam | August 23, 2006 5:00 PM
Take a look at Inside the Third Reich, by Albert Speer, who pretty much spilled his guts and took the blame at Nurember.
He relates that Hitler despised Christianity, despised the pastors, thought that Christianity was a Jewish inventin like Communism, and looked forward to the day when, after he had won the war, he could turn on the church.
As for his public statements above, so what? Like most politicians, Hitler was a liar.
Posted by: Goldstein | August 23, 2006 5:04 PM
Just be aware that many of the apparently anti-Christian passages in the English translation of Table Talk, edited by Hugh Trevor Roper in 1953, are fake. Richard Carrier has done a wonderful job tracking this down:
http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2002/nov02/carrier.php
German Studies Review 26 (2003) 561-576.
If you work from an authentic version of the Hitler transcripts, available only in the original German, you find that in four years, while Hitler discussed Christianity at least a score times, often in extended, rambling monologues, he did not mention Darwin's name once (at least according to the index of persons) and the subject of 'Darwinism' is indexed in the subject index five times. Reading the text, I actually don't regard the segments indexed as having anything to do with evolution.
Hitler was quite interested in and voluble on the subject of Christianity, and while he wanted to remake the religion in his own fashion, it is clear he believed in a personal God, Jesus Christ, original sin, and redemption. A heretical and distinctly irreverend Christian perhaps, but a Christian nonetheless.
(Trevor-Roper, who did not himself speak German, was apparently fooled by a Swiss Nazi by the name of Genoud, who added material that he though Hitler should have said, to a French translation he prepared; and by his own translators, who worked from the French tranlation rather than the German, and thus reproduced the fabrications. Trevor-Roper lated authenticated the 'Hitler Diaries'. He may have been the most gullible historian of the 20th century.)
Posted by: Gerard Harbison | August 23, 2006 5:04 PM
Now, the cretinists will claim that you love Hitler, since you've abundandly quoted him. Thanks for the list, I thought such was out there somewhere; it is convenient to have all these in one place.
When one's rhetorical opponent is pathologically incapable of reasoned analysis, or comprehension of any new idea, it becomes easy to predict their next move. This is why I avoid any contact with the UnReality based community (eg, anybody who describes themselves as "deeply" religous).
Posted by: TheBrummell | August 23, 2006 5:10 PM
Re: Table Talk, I seem to recall hearing that disputed as a forgery, though I may be confusing it with something else. Be that as it may, I have the impression Hitler's idea of Christianity was not the most orthodox, but there's little doubt a lot of his inspiration came out of the tradition.
However, according to this news item I just read, we have a new question to ponder: did Hitler like vindaloo?
(File under: Wierdness)
Posted by: Steve Watson | August 23, 2006 5:14 PM
As for his public statements above, so what? Like most politicians, Hitler was a liar.
So when Hitler says things you want to hear, he was telling the truth, whereas when he said something inconvenient for you, that's him lying. Glad you're just a nobody troll and not a historian.
Posted by: George Cauldron![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/nav-commenters.gif)
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August 23, 2006 5:14 PM
Since I was searching for Hitler quotes recently (regarding Sparta), I found this, which gives more detail about those private conversations, and two quotes in particular.
http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-167.html
Although I just now refreshed and saw the comment from Gerard Harbison about them being probably forgeries, so throw in some salt.
Oh, and Hitler's (unsourced) quote about Sparta (so it may also be from a less-than-entirely honest source) was:
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/n-s/spartans4.html
However, we do know that the Nazis also killed the disabled, so regardless of whether Hitler said the above, he certainly acted in accord with its sentiment.
Posted by: Owlmirror | August 23, 2006 5:16 PM
It's been pointed out a million times, and the wingnuts always ignore it, but Hitler's attitudes toward the Jews trace right back to Martin Luther:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_the_Jews
Posted by: George Cauldron![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/nav-commenters.gif)
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August 23, 2006 5:17 PM
Sorry, wrong URL above. It should be:
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/n-s/spartans1.html
And it's a long page; the quote is about midway down.
Posted by: Owlmirror | August 23, 2006 5:18 PM
and
Posted by: anon | August 23, 2006 5:23 PM
The following are the standard sites detailing Hitler's Christian beliefs:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
The first one has a bunch of very good links at the bottom of the page, including a link to that analysis of the Table Talks.
Posted by: George Cauldron![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/nav-commenters.gif)
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August 23, 2006 5:25 PM
Notice that anything that helps the argument that Hitler was a Christian is good stuff and any contradictory evidence is claimed to be faked?
Who ya kiddin? Carrier has an agenda: hes no more objective than Dawkins is on religion.
Look at Speers remarks on Hitlers views of Christianity in Inside the Third Reich; Hiter depised it as a Jewish invention.
Or look at Hitlers praise of Nietzsche. Sure, Hitler distorted Nietzsche, but one thing he could not distort and certainly believed was Nietzsche claim that God is dead.
Shirer reports in Rise and Fall of the Third Reich that Hitler frequently visted the Nietzsche museum, had himself photographed with busts of Nietzsche, and had the ODD habit of...and this in the middle of World War II...giving complete leather bound sets of Nietzshe's works to Mussolini and others when he needed them to "buck up" and "stay the course!".
Nietzche of course called Christianity "more harmful than any vice!" (The Anti Christ, by Nietzsche the Syphillit, sec. 2)
On the other hand perhaps Speer and Shrirer were lying, and the Nietzche manuscripts are faked.
Just pick what you like best.
Posted by: Goldstein | August 23, 2006 5:27 PM
Perhaps everyone should read this before discussing this topic any further.
The fact is that Hitler was neither a fanatic nor an atheist. Like most people, he was somewhere in between, and said and did some conflicting things on the matter over the course of his life.
Posted by: Dan | August 23, 2006 5:34 PM
Just pick what you like best.
Ho, ho, ho, you're not big on self-awareness, are you?
Are you are doing is claiming that everything that supports your idea is valid, and simply ignoring the massivec (and much bigger) amount of evidence that shows Hitler believed in God and was a Catholic his whole life. I don't see you offering any evidence that his Christian statements were invalid, just attacking people who point them out.
Any idea why Hitler would have outlawed atheist groups?
Posted by: George Cauldron![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/nav-commenters.gif)
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August 23, 2006 5:36 PM
So now we're quote mining Hitler...
Posted by: Squeaky | August 23, 2006 5:40 PM
I'm tired of this tripe. Not only are they making logically errant claims of "Well, Hitler was fufilling natural selection, therefore, evolution is false" (Non Sequitur, Red Herring, Guilt by Association, Argumentum ad Hitlerum) but they are historically wrong: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/darwin_nazism.htm
It seems when ID-ers, as usual, are incapable of forming an actual scientific arguments for ID and against evolution, they remove their thin disguise and slip back into the creationism we all know they seek to supplant evolution with.
Posted by: A.Y. | August 23, 2006 5:42 PM
I think the point is not so much whether or not Hitler himself was a devout and sincere Christian - let Hitler's actions speak for themselves regarding what he was - but more that he used religion so effectively as a means of controlling the citizenry and justifying the perpetration of great evil.
Surely that is indisputable, just as surely as he is not the only world leader who has ever done - or who will ever do - the same.
So. To whom, or what, do we assign the blame for this? Jesus? Darwin? The Bible? Socialism? Eugenics? Christianity? Religion in general? Atheism? Christians? Atheists? Germans? The French? Human nature? The blind obedience to authority (especially "divine" authority) to which so many people are succeptible?
Posted by: Watchman | August 23, 2006 5:50 PM
First of all, I have no problem with Dawkins' views on religion.
But more importantly, we don't have to rely on Carrier. What Carrier writes about Table Talk is immediately verifiable by anyone who bothers to get the two German versions of the Hitler monologues and knows enough German to compare them with the English version. As it happens, when I read Carrier's articles (one of which is peer-reviewed, BTW), I bought both the Jochmann and the Picker versions through a used bookseller, and checked the translations for myself (four years of German and living in the country for a year was useful). And what Carrier says is accurate. I'm sorry that that puts a big hole in your ad hominem; maybe it will teach you to argue substance.
I cited Carrier because he discovered the problem and because he deserves far more credit than he has hitherto gotten for doing so. But I can post about this from my own direct experience.
Posted by: Gerard Harbison | August 23, 2006 5:53 PM
Notice that anything that helps the argument that Hitler was a Christian is good stuff and any contradictory evidence is claimed to be faked?
So, what about the support of the largely Christian German people? Was that faked? Do you honestly think that Hitler's speeches had no impact on the German people? Are you lying or stupid?
Posted by: JackGoff | August 23, 2006 5:54 PM
So now we're quote mining Hitler...
Well, when idiots say that Christianity had no part in Nazi rhetoric and philosophy and instead try to blame the Holocaust on Charles Darwin of all people, you have to show them how wrong they are.
Posted by: JackGoff | August 23, 2006 5:58 PM
Whether Hitler used evolution as the inspiration for his atrocities isn't even the issue. What if he did? Does that make evolution wrong? If he did, it just means he was misusing and misunderstanding science and twisting it to justify his own warped goals. And according to the Wikipedia article Dan sent us to, he apparently did the same thing with religion. In the Hitler psyche, it didn't matter what the tenets of science or religion actually are, as long as they followed HIS rules.
If Hitler used evolution to justify the holocaust, it in no way negates evolution. It just shows that science can be misused for very evil means. Scientific discoveries can be used for good (our understanding of evolution enables us to create vaccines for the latest flu strain) and for evil (our understanding of evolution enables us to use deadly strains of viruses to kill people). It's a question of morality, not a question of whether or not the science is wrong.
Posted by: Squeaky | August 23, 2006 5:59 PM
Jack Goff,
"Well, when idiots say that Christianity had no part in Nazi rhetoric and philosophy and instead try to blame the Holocaust on Charles Darwin of all people, you have to show them how wrong they are."
So, the best thing to do is use the same ineffective methods that you would criticize Creationists for using?
Posted by: Squeaky | August 23, 2006 6:01 PM
"So. To whom, or what, do we assign the blame for this? Jesus? Darwin? The Bible? Socialism? Eugenics? Christianity? Religion in general? Atheism? Christians? Atheists? Germans? The French? Human nature? The blind obedience to authority (especially "divine" authority) to which so many people are succeptible? "
Hmm...good points, Watchman. I have a personal agenda against Eugenics, so that's what I choose to blame for Hitler. I'm being facetious, of course. Actually, I blame Hitler for his atrocities, as Hitler bears full responsibilities for the actions he chose. On the other hand, I could blame that art teacher of his who told him he sucked--just think, we might have only heard of Hitler in our art history classes...
Posted by: Squeaky | August 23, 2006 6:09 PM
The Personenregister of the Monologe im Führerhauptquartier, 1941-1944, Werner Jochman, ed., the most complete and authentic version of Hitler's private thoughts during his last years, contains approximately 600 distinct names, including Aristotle, Beethoven, Gandhi, St. Paul (a lot), and Wagner (even more). Darwin's name was not mentioned once by the Führer in four years of transcripts.
Some inspiration!
Posted by: Gerard Harbison | August 23, 2006 6:13 PM
Hitler used religous fundamentalism for his own political purposes. Uhmm ... are we seeing the same from religous groups today, still ...
Posted by: George | August 23, 2006 6:14 PM
Indeed, the Talmud is not a book to prepare a man for the hereafter, but only for a practical and profitable life in this world. - Adolf Schicklgruber
And nu? There's something wrong with that?
Posted by: DAS | August 23, 2006 6:18 PM
"So, the best thing to do is use the same ineffective methods that you would criticize Creationists for using?"
The Hitler=Christian quotes show me at least that if you are going to blame Darwin for the Holocaust, based on misleading Nazi rhetoric, you have to also blame Christianity. Quote mining Hitler is, in this case, the tool used to show that quote mining is stupid.
But my problem (and I assume I share this with other people who like this blog), is that once I get in a couple nice shots at Christianity, in the context of fighting its most disgusting outgrowths, it's hard not to keep punching, whether I'm being fair or not. It becomes a pointless but fun exercise to pretend Christianity caused the Holocaust.
Not that I don't think christian/religious-style magical thinking wasn't a huge part of how the Nazis managed to do as much damage as they did. Obviously, the Christian Bible is an effectively meaningless jumble of words you can use to rally anyone to any cause, once you convince them that it's the Revealed Word of God, and that you understand its meaning.
Posted by: Todd | August 23, 2006 6:25 PM
I'm sorry that that puts a big hole in your ad hominem; maybe it will teach you to argue substance.
There's an important point here about objectivity, bias, agendas, etc. It doesn't matter if someone -- like Carrier in this example -- making an argument or investigating a proposition is objective or not as long as they are accurate. As long as they don't bury contrary evidence and report what they find accurately, they could be the most unobjective, biased person with the biggest agenda and it doesn't matter if what they're saying is factual, accurate, and inclusive -- like Carrier in this example.
Posted by: QrazyQat | August 23, 2006 6:26 PM
Objection! You're doing the same thing we are, only instead of blaming Darwinism, you're blaming Christianity.
Reply: No, I think humans have done evil throughout their history, and are always willing to grab any convenient rationalization for their behavior, whether it's science or religion or twinkies. Science doesn't dictate morality, and it's also rather clear that religion does a piss-poor job of it, too.
Like hell. You REGULARLY blame religion, most notably Christianity.
And the VAST majority of those quotes come either frmo Mein Kampf, a book designed to win over Christian German hearts, or prior to his elevation as Chancellor in 1933.
In other words, he SPOKE Christianity to get into office. Once in office, he abandoned it, as well as any other principle or person who got in his way of European domination.
You just cannot let it rest, can you?
Posted by: hoody | August 23, 2006 6:30 PM
Quote mining is about taking quotes and using them to mean something other than what the person meant. It's going against the source's actual conclusions by taking quotes out of context and so forth.
Perhaps the people who are accusing us of quote mining should look them up and provide the context and show us that it disagrees or something.
Simply quoting some choice bits isn't quote mining.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | August 23, 2006 6:31 PM
Quote-mining like this is not a useful way to understand Hitler, religion, or anything else.
In Mein Kampf, the lead quotation in this list, "The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement) was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge," follows a few sentences after "In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and well-planned"; Hitler was criticizing the Christian Social Party for its religious ideas, not praising it.
It's not that Hitler was or was not a good Catholic. Mein Kampf shows a man bursting with hysterical rage against Jews; full of a fanatical and racist German nationalism; and convinced that he was the world's greatest genius and Germany's natural leader.
He eclectically picked out of the culture of his times and out of German history whatever ideas, religious or pseudo-scientific, that might advance him and his goals.
Unlike the Christian Social Party, he based his anti-Semitism on what he probably considered science, as you can read here: http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/books/43kampf/kampf43.htm
He had no idea of what science was and made no effort to learn. But the anti-science American right can find plenty of material for quote mining amid Hitler's drivel. He was just as capable of embracing the lastest pseudo-scientific fad, such as eugenics, as he was of citing Martin Luther.
Hitler was also capable of saying whatever he thought was expedient, so you can't take any quotation as good coin. You coule prove via quote mining that he was an ardent opponent of war.
The relationship of Nazism to traditional irrationality is rather complex and important to understand, especially because of similarities to the present situation. But this understanding is not advanced by sophomoric debaters' tricks.
Posted by: tomob | August 23, 2006 6:34 PM
So, the best thing to do is use the same ineffective methods that you would criticize Creationists for using?
It's called reductio ad absurdem. If we wish to blame the atrocities of Hitler on his inspirations, we have to blame all his inspirations, not one. I'm showing the stupidity of their argument.
Posted by: JackGoff | August 23, 2006 6:39 PM
So, the best thing to do is use the same ineffective methods that you would criticize Creationists for using?
The best thing to show is the truth or falsity of evolution has nothing to do with what Hitler said or thought. If you have to trip Christians up on their own arguments to make them stop babbling, then so be it.
Posted by: junk science | August 23, 2006 6:51 PM
You just cannot let it rest, can you?
Only if Christians will let evolution stand as a scientific theory instead of trying to use reductio ad Hitlerem to prove it wrong.
Posted by: JackGoff | August 23, 2006 7:05 PM
It may have been a while since I read The Rise and the Fall of the Third Reich, but I don't remember any Nietzsche-Hitler link there. Shirer's main thesis is that Nazism is the natural continuation of German historical nationalism from Martin Luther onward; this takes him a few dozen pages to explain, after which he goes into 1,500 pages of non-analytical narrative. In general this tradition is Protestant (although Hitler was Catholic). Existentialism isn't a very important part of it, although Hitler did borrow a bit from Nietzsche.
Still, whatever view Hitler held about religion, he detested the Enlightenment, from which modern secularism comes, and had nothing but contempt for science except when he could Nazify it.
Posted by: Alon Levy | August 23, 2006 7:06 PM
If North Korea nukes Japan tomorrow, will that prove Oppenheimer wrong? Will we have to stop teaching children about protons and electrons?
Posted by: Max Udargo | August 23, 2006 7:07 PM
You just cannot let it rest, can you?
The snide fratboy whining doesn't really win arguments, Hoody. When you're a little older you might understand this.
Hitler's pro-Christian sentiments continued WAY into his time of power, when he no longer had to worry about winning over voters. And they're vastly greater in number and better documented than his anti-Christian sentiments.
Perhaps you can explain why Hitler outlawed atheist organizations once he was in power? And did you bother to look up that article about how Martin Luther felt about Jews?
Hitler was a straight product of German Christianity, he never renounced his Christianity, he never left the Catholic church, he had loyal support of the great majority of German Christians (Protestant AND Catholic) and he was never excommunicated by the Vatican. It is impossible to mount an successful argument that Hitler was an atheist.
Posted by: George Cauldron![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/nav-commenters.gif)
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August 23, 2006 7:20 PM
Hitler's last major counter-offensive, and last desperate attempt to turn the tide of war on his western front, came to be known as The Battle of the Bulge. But Hitler's codename for it was Operation Christrose. That was in the winter of 1944.
Posted by: Max Udargo | August 23, 2006 7:32 PM
Reading all this made me realize: Hitler was sort of an asshole, wasn't he?
Posted by: Great White Wonder | August 23, 2006 7:36 PM
Reading all this made me realize: Hitler was sort of an asshole, wasn't he?
He had 'issues'.
Posted by: George Cauldron![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/nav-commenters.gif)
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August 23, 2006 7:37 PM
George, you can shred people's arguments without adopting an ageist worldview. "When you grow older, you'll understand" is the exhortation of every authoritarian adult who can't understand why people younger than he is don't subscribe to his prejudices.
Posted by: Alon Levy | August 23, 2006 7:45 PM
h, lk. Qt mnng! Thnkflly, trly nfrmd ppl wh rn't nt-Chrstn bgts knw bttr:
Ws Htlr Chrstn?
Hck, vn Stphn Jy Gld grs:
nd hr's n f Htlr's qts frm Wk tht mks hm snd lk, wll, PZ hmslf:
Ws Htlr Chrstn, n thst, r smthng ls? dn't knw. Hs ls nd ctns spk lt ldr thn ny f hs wrds, hwvr, nd whtvr hs rlgs blfs (r lck thrf), n thng s clr: h ws mrdrs mnstr. wldn't b th lst srprsd f h thght f hmslf s Gd.
Posted by: Jason | August 23, 2006 8:08 PM
Are all atheists fundamentalist?
Posted by: Bro. Bartleby | August 23, 2006 8:10 PM
The point, you Christian idiots, is that it doesn't fucking matter what Hitler was. Evolution is still true, and superstition is still a waste of perfectly good brain matter.
Posted by: junk science | August 23, 2006 8:24 PM
Posted by: arensb | August 23, 2006 8:26 PM
Posted by: Bronze Dog | August 23, 2006 8:28 PM
"I wouldn't be the least surprised if he thought of himself as God."
...or someone who was deluded and thought he spoke directly to him.
Jason, you're a dope. Darwin, evolution, the truth, do not rely on what Hitler did or did not do. It's amusing to see that it's somehow used as rationale against the scientific opinions of PZ. Very weak.
The assertion that natural selection leads inevitably to what Hitler did is false. Hitler didn't deselect individuals based on their environmental fitness. His methods and reasoning were obtuse and outside the range of natural acceptance. That's why those methods eventually were snuffed out when the allies won the war. They were false and misguided. As are you.
Posted by: Alex | August 23, 2006 8:34 PM
t sys thy r hmn nd fllbl, jst lk vryn ls. Chrstns hv nvr clmd thrws.
Posted by: Jason | August 23, 2006 8:34 PM
Well, at least that's something we can both agree on.
Back to where this all started: it is repeatedly asserted that because Hitler (allegedly) accepted the theory of evolution for the origin of species, and because he (allegedly) used that to justify his actions and policies, we should somehow conclude that this is negative evidence for evolutionary theory. This is the wrong conclusion (even accepting all the allegations at face value, which is being very generous to the argument), and you point it out above.
The correct conclusion is not "therefore, there must be something wrong with the theory of evolution", but "therefore, there must have been something wrong with Hitler".
I don't remember the precise construction I used last time I said this, but I'll go with your "murderous monster" as perfectly adequate.
Posted by: Millimeter Wave | August 23, 2006 8:44 PM
Y knw wht's fnny bt yr ctrwlng? hvn't vn md my blfs knwn bt th d tht Drwnsm fld Htlr's rmpg. 'm rsrvng jdgmnt ntl hr bth sds f th ss. hv t tll y ths, thgh: th sd tht cndmns m nd clls m nms vn bfr thy knw my pnn n th ss sn't hlpng thr rgmnt. Mks thm sm lk thy hv smthng t hd nd dn't wnt m t hr bth sds.
Posted by: Jason | August 23, 2006 8:52 PM
Has anybody seen Godwin, yet?
Posted by: s9 | August 23, 2006 8:54 PM
Alex:
"Hitler didn't deselect individuals based on their environmental fitness. His methods and reasoning were obtuse and outside the range of natural acceptance."
Even if the Nazis had run the most scientifically correct, well conceived eugenics program in the world, there still wouldn't be a prescriptive link between natural selection and that manifestation of social darwinism.
But yes, I agree that it certainly look like Hitler's racial theory was fed in good part by mythology and a certain notion of creation (not to impugn everyone who believes in creation in with the fact, before anyone misread this).
Posted by: Numad | August 23, 2006 8:54 PM
Christians have never claimed otherwise.
Ah ha. haha. HAHAHA! I'll just let that lay.
Read junk science's comment and go away. We've already reduced the "arguments" against evolution to absurdity, which was the point. The argument against Christianity has a large amount of other evidience than just "Hitler was a Christian." If you really want to go there, bring it on. Just leave scientific theories with HUGE amounts of evidence backing them out of it.
Posted by: JackGoff | August 23, 2006 8:54 PM
Has anybody seen Godwin, yet?
Dude's been doing tequila shots here for the past hour.
Posted by: junk science | August 23, 2006 8:57 PM
nd fr th sk f fll dsclsr: whl tnd t njy D. Jms Knndy's srmns nd bks, dn't lwys gr wth hm (.g. hs d tht th Gspl s prtryd n th prcssn f strlgcl sgns), s t's nt gvn tht wll gr wth ths ltst clm.
Posted by: Jason | August 23, 2006 9:00 PM
Trnsltn: y dn't hv ny prf t th cntrry, s y smply mck t nd pss vr t s f t wr fls.
Posted by: Jason | August 23, 2006 9:03 PM
So, you mean the Christians who've