…and this is a 
Freethought symbology
Category: Godlessness
Posted on: November 5, 2006 12:42 PM, by PZ Myers
There will be no poll. It's presumptuous of me to even suggest coming up with a symbol for freethought, and seriously, this is a small corner of the internet, with a small subset of godless people, and the ones who'd respond to a poll would be such a tiny fraction of the possibilities that it would be meaningless.
So instead, we'll have discussion. Reason with each other.
Here's the agenda: make an argument for your favorite, and sway me. Whatever symbol gets the most persuasive argument (and actually, the argument that larger numbers of people will like your symbol will have some weight with me), I'm going to use. Look ever to the left sidebar, where it says "Profile"—at the top of that, the symbol will appear at about the same size as the box with my face in it, and it will link to some godless manifesto (Russell's? My own? I'll think about it later). That's all I'm aiming for at this point.
If it is successful, that means that some other bloggers start using it, putting a discreet or blatant symbol somewhere on their pages that link to an explanation. The hope is that readers will wonder what that odd squiggle is, click on it, and learn something.
If it is wildly successful, it will achieve fairly general recognition so that readers won't bother to click on it anymore—they'll get used to seeing it and know that the author is one of them goddamned freethinkers, and they'll scurry off or settle down and read for a while. This is the most hopeful scenario, and I'm not counting on it; attempts to make that kind of widely recognized association fail much more often than they succeed.
So, what I did was simply skim through the suggestion thread and pick those symbols that generated some degree of repeated interest, and that also met my general criteria of being reasonably simple and easy to scrawl out. I stripped out colors and shading as well as I could and reduced everything to a high-contrast gray scale, and then scaled them all to about the same size…and show here some large ones and some tiny ones. If people want to get fancy and produce elaborate, full color versions with the flayed skin of Hypatia stapled to the sides and Robert Ingersoll's happy face peeping out of some space, that ornamentation can be done later and on your own—the goal now is to get a framework that is recognizable.
| a period |  |
| affinity |  |
| asterisk |  |
| circle |  |
| dna |  |
| empty |  |
| galaxy |  |
| infinity |  |
| natural |  |
| phi |  |
| pi |  |
| spiral |  |
So, talk about it. Please don't get hung up on details of the rendering—think of this as something that ought to be recognizable if it were chalked onto a sidewalk, for instance, and the final version that would go on a website can be cleaned up and made sharper—and let's avoid new suggestions, unless you've got something utterly stunning and brilliant. Let's just hash these out right now.
Another useful datum would be to let us know if you would use such a symbol on your weblog, or some other place. That'll help us get a feel for the potential for wider use.
Comments
It's presumptuous to act as though the results of such a poll would be binding or even meaningful beyond the tiny subset of people who would respond.
We've already had a thread where we reasoned and argued about what symbols would be appropriate.
Posted by: Caledonian | November 5, 2006 12:48 PM
I like the spiral, but the affinity seems to be the most unique and attention grabbing of the symbols. Shame it contains an english character.
Posted by: Francis | November 5, 2006 12:52 PM
I'm going to have to go with a period as my favorite, with the galaxy and the spiral both coming in a distant second. 'A period' is very simple and clean, and it isn't a symbol that already has a lot of meaning. It's appropriately abstract, yet beautiful, and the hidden question mark is a lovely reminder that everything deserves to be questioned.
Pi is nice and attractive, but it strikes me as a bit elitist. It's not as much of something I'd wear and be proud of. The galaxy isn't so bad, but I'd like to see something that comes with a little less meaning already attached. The spiral is ok, but not as clean. The asterisk and circle I think are too ubiquitous to work, and I'm not such a fan of phi for the same reason as pi. Greek letters just give off a snobby air to me. I use them all the time, but wouldn't wear one. Ditto for the null set, DNA, and natural. I doubt all freethinkers could find meaning in them as readily as they could in 'a period.'
So anyway, that's my two cents. Even if it gets outvoted, I might still end up getting one of those 'a period' things made one of these days. It's just too pretty, and I can see plenty of potential meaning there.
Posted by: Tim | November 5, 2006 1:02 PM
I like the Natural sign, it is easily recognizable, contains a double-entendre and it can go up anywhere. Even in my cubicle it work; right next to the crosses of my neighbors' cubicles and the bibles sitting at their desks.
Plus, music is a universal language, right?
Posted by: Mike Haubrich | November 5, 2006 1:02 PM
If we can't just use a Georgia O'Keefe painting, I'm down with Affinity- and would definitely use it at our site.
Posted by: raindogzilla | November 5, 2006 1:02 PM
Though it wouldn't be all that international, I like the a-period symbol as it was presented before: Cyan 'a' with a gray period. I could put that on the back of a t-shirt and do one of two things:
If I was in a situation likely hostile to atheists, I could, for example, claim it was the corporate logo for Airex from Wipeout:Pure. The font and color would fit fairly well into that game.
Otherwise, I could tell the truth and hope to spread the meme.
Don't think my plan would work out all that well for the rest of you, though.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | November 5, 2006 1:08 PM
The "a." looks nice bold but to draw it by hand is a pain because you have to either colour it in, or leave it wimpy and thin.
Affinity - love the name of it. The symbol itself is so-so. Atheist isn't something we capitalise as a proper noun, and really... what does infinity have to do with anything?
Take a pen and paper and try and draw the asterisk shown... for most of us it will probably come out looking out of proportion and messy. (Perhaps the difficulty in reproducing it by hand is not really important; I just know I would prefer something easy to doodle.)
The circle... can we really try and claim it as ours? I think it is way too ubiquitous to try and make people associate circles with freethought. I have the same objection to the infinity sign and the spiral.
The dna symbol makes me think of the X-Men. Maybe that's a good thing I don't know. =p
The empty set looks a lot like the "no entry" symbol, and I think we are looking for something without negative connotations.
Galaxy is cool, though the first thought that popped into my head was hurricane.
No real problems with the natural symbol, although I think something less angular and more flowing would be nice.
Phi I'm pretty indifferent to either way.
Pi I love most of all. "There's just something about it..." isn't a particularly convincing argument but it's about all I have hehe. I like it for its elegance.
Posted by: Skarn | November 5, 2006 1:08 PM
Hey, that's not DNA: it's a chromosome. What about all those poor bacteria you're snubbing?
I like the empty set, largely because it has the greatest potential for humour (it means island in Danish, for example).
Bob
Posted by: Bob O'H | November 5, 2006 1:08 PM
the natural sign.
has a kind of bad-ass death metal look to it.
Posted by: mjh | November 5, 2006 1:13 PM
The stick man. Because it's the symbol nobody wants. That won't happen of course, so if you're going to use a musical symbol I would suggest the fermata, because that means you can hold the note for as long as you damn well please.
Posted by: 386sx | November 5, 2006 1:16 PM
Having now seen how dated the American Atheists "atom" logo looks, I'd be against the DNA symbol. Sure, biotech is all the rage this generation, but 20 years from now? And what does DNA have to do with freethought, as such? Freethought is about more than science (and the particular "sexy" field of the moment).
I kind of like the affinity symbol. The "A" for atheism (or agnosticism) puts me off somewhat, since there are, strictly speaking, atheists who are anything but "freethinkers" (eg. those who live under political dogmatisms which substitute a quasi-religion of the State/People/Proletariat/Great Leader/etc. for traditional theism). However, crossing it with an infinity sign tends to nullify that by suggesting the symbolism that we, at least, do not accept that there are limits on acceptable thought and inquiry.
Posted by: Steve Watson | November 5, 2006 1:21 PM
I'd want to circle that "natural" symbol, but mostly I like the Affinity symbol. Incidentally, that "A" is hardly unique to English -- besides being a basic Latin-set character, it's found in a few other scripts to boot. (I was just rummaging through the Unicode site....)
Your infinities are seriously asymmetrical -- maybe you shouldn't just rotate an "8"!
Posted by: David Harmon | November 5, 2006 1:22 PM
Limited computer skills prevent me from rendering a graphic. I think though that the classic cartoon picture of a lit lightbulb would serve very well.
Ken
Posted by: Ken Mareld | November 5, 2006 1:26 PM
They all seem to be nice,except for the asterisk. It makes me think of bath mats, bad wallpaper, and the Dating Game.
Posted by: Odd Jack | November 5, 2006 1:33 PM
I like the affinity, and would certainly use it, had I a website.
The empty I dislike, because it can easily be misunderstod for the Danish/Norwegian letter 'Ø', which in Danish is also a word, meaning island. Even if it's not misunderstod, I think it has the wrong symbolism.
Posted by: Kristjan Wager | November 5, 2006 1:35 PM
i like µ = Microgravity; so i vote natural
Posted by: gwendolyn | November 5, 2006 1:38 PM
Affinity is the clear winner. It's memorable, incorporates an approximate "A" element, and will survive a primitive rendering (i.e. you could draw it on sand with a stick and it would be recognizable).
I like having the A, even if it is an english glyph, because it grounds the mark in something. Many of the other entries are simple appropriations of other symbols (infinity, the empty set, the circle, the musical "natural" symbol, the asterisk, or the phi) without anything done to the mark to indicate it's supposed to have something other than its original meaning. And while using an A ties into a specific cultural context, it's not an overwhelming meaning that overpowers the menaing we are trying to get our symbol to stand for. ("A-ness" is a less compelling meaning than specific mathematical ideas like empty set or pi, and lets us read things into it. In other words it evokes, rather than compels, a meaning.)
Going through some of the others:
The a-period I think doesn't survive being drawn in sand as well; you'd have a hard time making it look like something other than a sperm with a partly detached tail.
The DNA version might work if we were talking mostly about biology, but we aren't; we're bringing in cosmology and ontology, plus a lot else. Likewise the galaxy is too specific, and also looks a lot like the yin/yang thing, which gets rather close to a religious symbol.
The spiral doesn't really mean anything either.
The pi-circle is nice-looking, but the pi-ness of it overwhelms what we are trying to make it mean, which is something rather different.
Going back to affinity, it combines a pair a nice ideas - infinity and the A - without making one dominate the other.
The A can mean atheism, but it can also mean A as in the First, or A as in the primary, or best thing, or even A as in the rule of logic that says A cannot equal not-A. It can even just be a nice little non-symbolic triangle pointing upward. Or it could mean "all."
Adding infinity to this somewhat evocative A suggests the direction we're going with the meaning. We're saying atheism (or free thought) can explain infinity, i.e. all that we can see, without adding in junk like invisible sky demons. I think that sums it all up nicely.
Posted by: jimBOB | November 5, 2006 1:38 PM
The empty set, simply because it says exactly what we need it to say. No gods. The set of gods is empty. Simple, direct, and difficult to confuse with (for example) agnosticism. It may not be the prettiest symbol, but it gets the job done admirably.
Posted by: C.W | November 5, 2006 1:39 PM
DNA! All The Way!
because its important to have a cheer too!
It also can be embelished into a larger 3-D model with the cross links and the actual helix shape or simplified down to the tiny x and still be recognized as a common symbol. It also represents physical evidence which is what we freethinkers try to base all our beliefs around.
Also, I don't really see the accidental X-Men connection as a bad thing.
DNA! All The Way! Evolution is here to stay!
DNA! All The Way! Rational thought is on the way!
DNA! All The Way! We love you if you're staight and we love you if you're gay!
Wheee! I want to be in charge of the Freethinker's Glee Club.
Posted by: Vitis01 | November 5, 2006 1:42 PM
oops sorry. i should discuss. um, "free fall"? (hint, hint).
Posted by: gwendolyn | November 5, 2006 1:43 PM
Despite whatever "negative connotations" it may have, I think the empty set symbol is pretty damn clever. There is also the added bonus that it's easy to draw and could be substituted for the "O" in a certain three letter word. If I were to use it on my blog I would invert it so that the backroung is black and the empty set symbol is white (it matches the curtains).
Posted by: AustinAtheist | November 5, 2006 1:46 PM
I like the phi, it looks like a stylized tree and is easy to draw. However, given that the symbol has been around for a few years I'd wonder whether there are other meanings already attached to it.
The circled pi - mmm pie.
The a or A symbols are too atheisty I think.
I think the spiral is the strongest. It's a simple shape, universally recognizable, present all over the natural world, easy to draw and aesthetically pleasing. Just don't make rules about whether to draw it left or right handed, whether the opening is on the left or the right, etc. "A spiral" should be the definition.
Posted by: dcb | November 5, 2006 1:47 PM
The spiral is certain easy to reproduce, but you might want to keep in mind that it's used in other places and cultures; Celtic, Australian aboriginal come to mind. It might be mistaken for something else. However, the galaxy is a spiral as well, and, like someone mentioned above, also looks like hurricanes and other natural shapes.
I like the affinity, dna, and natural shapes, too, although I find round shapes easier to reproduce quickly.
Posted by: senoritafish | November 5, 2006 1:49 PM
To be fair to Affinity it looks like a letter, but the letter is not exclusive to English, and the alphabet is widely used across the world (plus English and French are primary languages in transactions).
The most striking are:
a period, affinity, dna, galaxy,
infinity, natural, phi, pi
The most likely to facilitate a conversation:
a period, affinity, phi, pi
A PERIOD - I don't know something is off with it to me.
PHI - I don't know what people would make of it. "Oh, a tree. Pagan?"
DNA - This one would seem to make people make claims of "scientism", or whatever sad term of the week is being used.
AFFINITY (Maybe it is the Stargate fan in me.)and PI are my favorites. But there is a certain something about GALAXY.
Posted by: Odd Jack | November 5, 2006 1:49 PM
Affinity by a mile. The A can stand for many things, as pointed out above, and the infinity just brings out the possibilities.
I'll disagree with C.W. on the empty set. Although empty is interesting and can stand for no gods, fairies or leprechauns, it could also be interpreted to mean atheists stand for nothing...and most that I know of certainly do not stand for nothing. Humanism, freethought, intellectual discovery, etc.
I'm for Affinity and would definitely post it on my blog.
Posted by: Aa | November 5, 2006 1:51 PM
I'd prefer phi. I'd definitely display it.
However, I'd like to address some of the symbols and why I think we shouldn't use them. Basically, I'm talking about the first two, 'a period' and 'affinity'. From what I've read, you're trying to get a symbol that represents freethought, and not necessarily atheism. As such, I really don't think symbols incorporating an 'a' should be used. Now, if I'm incorrect in my take on what you want the symbol to represent, then of course you can disregard this comment (except for the part about phi).
Posted by: ocmpoma | November 5, 2006 1:53 PM
The natural sign
I'd use this on my soon to be ressurected blog because it fits so "naturally" with naturalism. I suggest too you link the symbol to some part of naturalism.org or The Center for Naturalism website. In fact, why don't you join them (the founders include Brian Leiter and Dan Dennet)?
http://www.centerfornaturalism.org/ has a Statement On Naturalism
Of course, if what you want to achieve is shock-and-awe, don't link to that site. Most everything there is presented positively; they don't go out of their way to poke theists in the eye in spite of making their atheism and freethinking abundantly clear. They do address what I think is the most important issue: applied naturalism. After you get to atheism and freethinking, what can you say about personal ethics and social programs that might appeal to a wider audience. Goodness, they even say naturalism leads to compassion!
Posted by: AndyS | November 5, 2006 1:53 PM
I've been mulling this over. I voted for the spiral earlier, but the stylized 'a period' is pretty clever: both a question mark and a letter 'a' can be found, if one looks.
After thinking it over, I decided to play with my little Paint brush and I've sent out a suggestion that combines a spiral (which implies natural beauty, order and causation) within an 'a shape' that also looks like a question mark. I hope PZ will consider posting it as food for thought.
Posted by: Scott Hatfield | November 5, 2006 1:56 PM
Another vote for phi. I like the natural symbol too, but unless it is altered in some way we're just going to be mistaken for musicians. The galaxy symbol is interesting, but a bit too sci-fi. The affinity is ok, but I doubt I'd ever use it.
Phi for the win.
Posted by: Chuck Morrison | November 5, 2006 2:01 PM
I'm still for affinity, and as PZ's challenge have posted it on my blog.
http://braving-the-elements.blogspot.com/2006/11/affinity-p.html
Posted by: Aa | November 5, 2006 2:03 PM
I really like the empty set, for all the reasons mentioned above. It says no more than it should say. Plus, it's REALLY EASY TO DRAW with chalk, pencil, put on a t-shirt, a bumper magnet, etc.
Posted by: decrepitoldfool | November 5, 2006 2:03 PM
Affinity, or possibly, Pi.
Posted by: G. Tingey | November 5, 2006 2:04 PM
I vote for the Affinity.
First, I don't see any particular issue with using an English character. English contains plenty of words and symbols imported from other cultures, and we already export many more. The origin language should not matter as long as the symbol is understood.
As for the infinity, at first I couldn't see just what it had to do with freethought. But it's grown on me, even over the short time that I've been lurking around reading comments on the last thread. Infinity makes me think of words like "unbounded", meaning that we do not recognize the strict limits on thought of many religions. It also contains a kind of promise-- freethought will not die, because there will always be intelligent, rational people who figure out the truth. From now until infinity, the one thing you cannot kill is thought.
Unlike the asterisk, circle, empty set, (plain) infinity, natural, phi, pi, and the spiral, the Affinity is not already attatched to a meaning. And unlike the DNA and the galaxy, it is not dependent on scientific discoveries that have the potential to look old and dated later. And unlike the "a, period", it is far from a corporate-looking logo.
Finally, the Affinity is simply the most intersting and visually pleasing of the bunch. It is not something you would see in daily life. It would look great hanging from a necklace or adorning the back of a car. It could easily be scrawled in a few seconds (I just tried it myself of a piece of scratch paper) and it says exactly what we want it to say. Nothing more or less.
Plus, it has the coolest name of all!
Posted by: maria | November 5, 2006 2:05 PM
I like the circled pi symbol. It is simple, easy to draw, looks great, and is easy to recognize weather you draw it with a thin pencil or a thick magic marker.
When I was a kid, my grandfather would grade his students' math homework with me on his lap. I would always reach for his scientific calculator and even though I couldn't count very well yet, I knew which button would fill up the screen. All I ever did was push the pi button and get 3.14159.....
Come on, you guys gotta love pi. It has endless complex depths of non-repeating digits all represented by a single little symbol.
Posted by: up2orbit | November 5, 2006 2:10 PM
There is only one.
In every conceivable system, across all conceivable universes, it is the same. It is where all systems start. It is everywhere, but nowhere in particular.
Where no answer is to be found, here is your answer. It is the null set: Ø
The conclusion is inescapable. God=Ø.
One of the neat things about using Ø as a symbol for atheism is that it is not simply a negation. The proposition "God=Ø" does not deny God's existence; rather, it asserts an essential truth about God. As Ø, God is empty and powerless. Ø, like God, exists only as a convenience for those with nothing better to think about; it is totally negligible.
And it's a pretty symbol, and a nifty decoration for T-shirts, Messenger Bags, Coffee Mugs, Stickers, and Mouse Pads.
Richard
Posted by: Richard Blumberg | November 5, 2006 2:10 PM
Affinity.
It has a great name and demands the "What is it?" question.
The natural symbol is in second place in my opinion, but it suffers from prior associations. Too musical. That's the problem with most of the other possibilities: circles? phi? asterisk? empty set? pi? infinity? All taken. And the fallen-over question mark? Too weak.
The DNA symbol has the advantage of being new, but too X-chromosomy (is that a word?).
Posted by: Zeno | November 5, 2006 2:12 PM
The natural sign still looks like a Schutzstaffel symbol. Maybe I've grown up in the wrong neighborhood, but that really wouldn't go over well with most people here.
I still like the asterisk, for all the reasons that guy mentioned in that blog post.
Posted by: Cairnarvon | November 5, 2006 2:14 PM
My vote goes for the null set b/c it conveys the meaning of what it is actually symbolizing far better than the other symbols. The affinity is very pretty, though.
Posted by: Dave Carlson | November 5, 2006 2:19 PM
I like Pi-circled the best. It has a strongly iconic, easily-recognized look. On the more abstract level, it represents the way science can provide utility and explanation, without requiring certainty (no way to calculate a final expression of Pi). Also Kate Bush wrote a cool song about it.
Affinity I like second-best. On a purely graphic level (speaking as a retired graphics designer), it has a classy look, and scales well. I still think Pi-circled is better overall, but this one doesn't suck. It has the natural tie-in to athiesm/agnosticism with the letter "A," but it's also moderated (or extended? modulated?) by the infinity symbol so it's not only "A for athiesm."
Infinity and Phi I'm pretty neutral about. They don't strike me one way or the other.
The others I don't like very much. The asterisk reminds me of graphics used in the hippy/flower child days. The natural note is too strongly associated with music. The empty circle isn't easily recognized as an intentional symbol at all. The DNA symbol doesn't look like DNA to a layman (it's been simplified too much). The empty set will be misread as an attempt to show the planet saturn. The galaxy symbol is too similar to yin/yang. The Fibonacci spiral doesn't say anything to me as a symbol (even though I know about that sequence)... it's just a pretty design. The "a period" is an interesting shape, but probably requires too much explanation.
Posted by: foldedpath | November 5, 2006 2:26 PM
I think the affinity symbol is gorgeous. Looks like a golden-age science fiction rocket ship, and the way the infinity symbol is woven into it, yum.
The natural symbol is a close second, on the basis of its attractive angular symmetry and the built-in pun.
Of the two, I think the affinity symbol is more likely to have people saying "wow, what does that mean?" If you want that, go with affinity. If you'd rather have something that's meaningful to those in the know, but won't necessarily start a lot of annoying conversations, go with the natural sign.
Posted by: Evan | November 5, 2006 2:30 PM
I have to add my vote for the Affinity symbol for the following 'reasons':
1) The symbol is the most aesthetically pleasing.
2) "A" is the first letter in the alphabet.
3) "A" can stand for 'atheist' or 'agnostic' or 'affinity' (for knowledge or truth)
4) 'Affinity', according to Merriam-Webster, means:
Posted by: Ian H Spedding FCD | November 5, 2006 2:35 PM
"Your infinities are seriously asymmetrical -- maybe you shouldn't just rotate an "8"!" - David Harmon
The infinity symbol is asymetric in many typefaces.
Posted by: Colst | November 5, 2006 2:42 PM
To show my enthusiam for the empty set symbol, I have posted an official endorsement up at my blog.
Posted by: AustinAtheist | November 5, 2006 2:44 PM
I like the spiral best. It indirectly represents phi and a few other mathematical concepts, and with the related Fibonacci numbers crops up in biology all the time. There was even a piece in Nature a couple of years ago suggesting that the universe has a dodecahedral structure, intimately intertwined with phi, so that if you could transit the universe, you'd make your way to the other side rotated by the same amount as opposite pentagons in a dodecahedron.
In short, the spiral exemplifies for me the recurrence of mathematical structural in the living world, which is beyond any human culture or club.
Posted by: Paco | November 5, 2006 2:45 PM
I like Affinity, because it's unique -- many of the other symbols already have an attached meaning (which is different from what's intended here). And, pretty. I'd use it, I'd wear it (as jewelry, t-shirt, etc...).
I especially don't like the empty set. What I see is a NO! symbol without the referent (NO smoking, etc.).
Galaxy: I like the idea, but what I see is "hurricane".
Some of the others seem a bit too grounded in math/science geekery -- not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm one myself -- but using them sort of pre-assigns a target audience, I think (if that makes sense...)
I like the ideas of Phi (which will always mean philosophy to me) and the natural sign, but the symbols don't stand out for me. Maybe combining them? I know, you said no new ideas...
Posted by: TiaRachel | November 5, 2006 2:47 PM
DNA works best as a symbol, though it could be improved with some lines representing nucleotides. That would make it look less "chromosomey." But, as Steve Watson pointed out, it's too specific to one branch of science, just like the AA atom. It also looks a bit like the copywright (c), as if freethinkers get a nickel for every mitosis.
AFFINITY is the strongest runner-up, graphically. But it looks too much like a New Age pyramid, or something from Stargate SG-1.
The a. is clever, but too easily rotates into a question mark. Which makes it the perfect symbol for agnosticism!
Posted by: Grumpy | November 5, 2006 2:47 PM
I'd like to use the "a." on my blog, though I really like the Pi as well, and that would translate better into the sort of necklace pendant that the theists like to use to proclaim their affiliation.
I really like the asterisk, but as an English major, the asterisk says to me "there's something more," (footnotes, endnotes, translation) which seems antithetical to a nontheistic symbol. I suppose the case could be made that it means "keep looking" or "this requires further explanation," but it still seems a little woo-ish to me.
As a Physics major (yes, double-major) the asterisk says to me "all the terms in the wavefunction containing e are negative," and that added negativity also seems antithetical to the cause.
Affinity's neat, DNA/chromosome less so, and I agree that the galaxy looks too much like a hurricane emblem. My only objection to Phi is the amount of woo surrounding the Golden Ratio (I've been reading Flim Flam lately, so that sticks out).
Posted by: Tom Foss | November 5, 2006 2:49 PM
It could only really be the DNA/chromosome. Sure, other signs have their points, but the one that best illustrates the triumph of scientific method over dogma is life's blueprint. I like it so much I shall adopt it myself herewith :-).
Posted by: Bruce | November 5, 2006 2:49 PM
The one that jumped out at me was the affinity symbol. I hadn't seen it before and it seems perfect for atheism. But isn't this symbol supposed to encompass freethought, which usually includes agnosticism and deism? I'm also keen on the natural symbol. (Although it does look somewhat fascist; makes me think of Oswald Mosley.) I hate to agree with AndyS, whose tone leaves something to be desired as always, but connecting it with naturalism rather than simply freethought would be nice. I think the empty set symbol is perfect for atheism (and, again, only atheism) in theory; but looks too much like a stop signal in practice. The spiral and galaxy seem to be popular with pantheists and I'm not keen on them anyway. I don't like any of the others. So I'd say affinity provided excluding non-atheistic freethought isn't a big issue or natural symbol otherwise.
Posted by: poke | November 5, 2006 2:50 PM
I think the Affinity logo is very nice, the only qualm I have with it is that it is very difficult to write or read at small sizes. Like the Christian cross, it ought to be able to be used as a footnote indicator.
Because of this, I feel like the Natural sign would be best. Exceedingly easy to draw, reproducible at small sizes, and even capable of being typed in Unicode - ♮. The clever intertwining of rationalism and musical beauty also shows that artistry does indeed exist in the freethought movement. This is the most convenient, recognizable, reproducible, drawable, meaningful emblem for the purpose we are seeking.
Posted by: Matt | November 5, 2006 2:51 PM
Tia Rachel said:
"What I see is a NO! symbol without referent."
Precisely! It's crossing out something that was never there to begin with. In that way it points out that the beliver's faith has no referent.
Posted by: AustinAtheist | November 5, 2006 2:53 PM
Eh, the affinity is the one I dislike the most. I dunno, it looks too complicated, though maybe that could be mitigated by using a sans serif font. I think it's the mixing of two different symbols that I find unappealing. I guess that's it, as I dislike the circle-pi as well.
I still like the five-lobed asterisk (I still think it should be turned 36° so it points down), though the natural and empty set are growing on me. The circle is too simple, and not many people can draw a good circle freehand. And the spiral is even harder to draw. Besides, it's the symbol of the god Orlanth from the Runequest RPG.
I kind of like the a-period (it reminds me strongly of Redmond Simonsen's work), but it only works if drawn in that exact way; as a sketch on a wall, it wouldn't look like so much. Dna looks like the trademark of a biotech pharmaceuticals company. In fact I may steal it for a RPG game....
Not sure about the galaxy. It may be the rendering; the arms look a bit thin and elongated. I'd prefer a tighter spiral, but then you're back to the problems of drawing a spiral.
Mmm, I think that leaves phi. What was the reasoning behind that one again? I like the rendering on that one, and it would be distinctive if drawn that way, as one continuous line.
Posted by: NelC | November 5, 2006 2:54 PM
I'm especially fond of the natural sign. It would be a good symbol of our natural abilities to use both reason and imagination to make sense of the world.
Plus, musically speaking, it's an "accidental", which summarizes our acceptance that there is an element of randomness in human experience.
Posted by: Julie Stahlhut | November 5, 2006 2:57 PM
I agree the affinity symbol looks nice, and better fits the practical goal of *making* a new symbol vs. co-opting one, but... infinity has mixed connotations, at best. Numbers are unbounded, but so is God; religion is sometimes described as communion with the Infinite.
I know we're discouraged from proposing new symbols in this thread, but I wanted to respond to the charges of DNA or atom symbols being dated, or datable. One of the roots of Western naturalism and freethought is Democritus, originator or systemizer of the atomic idea, plus ideas such as the Milky Way being made of stars too far away to distinguish, that the gods were not immortal, and possibly that human society came up from the animals, vs. falling from a golden age. And his famous phrase is "nothing exists except atoms and the void."
So perhaps a combination of atom and empty set. Something like the American Atheists symbol but with a null symbol in the nucleus. Maybe work a galaxy in there as well.
And just for inspiration, a Greek stamp.
Posted by: Damien | November 5, 2006 2:58 PM
Hmmm...just wondering, but does anyone else notice that if we made the natural symbol a little curvy, it could look a lot like the galaxy thingy?
Posted by: PZ Myers | November 5, 2006 2:59 PM
Sigh. Am I the only one who likes the spiral? I'd like it better pointing/opening up, though, instead of down. I'd rather think of it as a nautilus than a snail. It's got the natural world, it's got the beauty of mathematics, it's got something that looks intricately designed yet is a product of evolution, it's got it all. I don't think it looks too much like aboriginal art, especially if rendered well; those tend to be spirals with evenly spaced lines, and if done correctly the Fibonnaci spiral obviously gets larger as it spirals outward. Plus, it *is* a link to cephalopods, PZ. Come on, you knwo you want it.
I dislike any of the ones that incorporate the letter "a", because it's so Roman-letter-centric. Plus, the "a period" looks like a sperm when it gets smaller, and really, men think they're the center of the universe enough as it is. (joke! don't email bomb me!)
The asterisk has bee taken over by Cingular, 'nuff said.
DNA - blech. I get the point, but the entire world isn't molecular biology, and the rise of proteomics has made DNA seem a bit less important.
I love the idea of the natural sign, but it would need something else to make it "not just the music symbol" natural. I'm trying to think of how infinity could be incorporated into it, sort of like the affinity but with the natural sign where the "A" is instead. Ooo, maybe with the spiral inside/around it? Does that count as not a new suggestion?
Posted by: Carlie | November 5, 2006 3:07 PM
Precisely! It's crossing out something that was never there to begin with. In that way it points out that the believer's faith has no referent.
But is that the entire point? (no, I'm serious, I've lost track...) My approach to the world doesn't depend on what goes on inside someone else's head (so long as that's where they keep it!). Is the intent to be anti-theist? Anti-believer?
But I don't read it in that way. What that image says to me is strong negativity. Anti-ness, without any specific referent obviously present in the image itself. Just anti-everything. I think we want a pro-something impression...
Posted by: TiaRachel | November 5, 2006 3:07 PM
Asterix.
(1) Has a nice viril sound. Asterix.
(2) It has no meaning in itself. Generally points to the source (of something).
(3) It has the same pental symmetry as the American flag's star.
Posted by: jaim klein | November 5, 2006 3:07 PM
Haiku for yous science guys:
The spiral is perfect-
it implies expansiveness,
symbolizes growth.
Symbol of movement,
it looks like a nautilus-
its math: perfection.
Rotate 180-
the universe is pulled in...
cornucopia.
Posted by: Cathy in Seattle | November 5, 2006 3:08 PM
Sorry, I canna' type today.
Posted by: Carlie | November 5, 2006 3:12 PM
'a period' is not unusual enough. Too little visual detail.
affinity combines a very common symbol (capital A or capital lambda)
with a moderately common symbol, in a unique way. Easy to draw, easy
to describe, easy to recognize, and no confusing interpretations.
asterisk is too hard to draw, and has too many existing uses.
Of the two DNA symbols, the circle is bad because it has many existing
uses, and atheism is irrelevant to bacteria - they cannot believe in
any God. We all have chromosomes, so the chromosome is preferred.
The empty set has too many existing uses.
The 'galaxy' is actually a hurricane. I think it was foolish to even
suggest this symbol; if theists figured out that we were using Soviet
Weather Control technology to create hurricanes and smash up cities,
we'd be in a lot of trouble.
'infinity' has an existing use, and is not as visually interesting as
the affinity. Further, your examples are awfully lopsided.
natural, phi, and pi all have existing uses, and are less visually
interesting compared to the affinity.
The spiral is probably too common.
Posted by: llewelly | November 5, 2006 3:13 PM
The problem with the spiral, for me, is that it's used in new-agery & neopagan images. Not that there's anything wrong with neopagans... ; )
in other words, other referents exist.
Posted by: TiaRachel | November 5, 2006 3:16 PM
http://www.geocities.com/vinleys/music/notation/fermata.gif
Fermata Pluses: Symbol for musical free thought, i.e., hold the note for as long as you feel like. Already curvy. Looks like the sun rising. Looks like a bird's eye, birds are free. Doesn't look like some kind of a Nazi symbol or something.
Fermata Minuses: None.
Posted by: 386sx | November 5, 2006 3:17 PM
the Affinity symbol is my fave. It's simple and elegant, ballanced and pleasing. It will be easy to draw by hand and easy to use as a design element. I have a warm spot for the natural sign, but it's just too esoteric.
Posted by: MrsCogan | November 5, 2006 3:20 PM
On pure asthetic appeal, I vote, in order:
1) The asterisk, provided that it is presented like a sand dollar. I really like that imagery. The asterisk alone won't do it...the naturalness of a sand dollar reinforces the naturalness of the atheist position. It's a symbol that can be found all over the planet, naturally occuring, right at people's feet. So, for me, I vote the sand dollar and the asterisk.
2) The affinity. It makes it look like we're masons.
3) DNA. The building blocks of life, a life that atheists hold above and beyond ideas about religion.
That's it.
Posted by: MikeQ | November 5, 2006 3:20 PM
Well shucks! Do we want a "logo for godlessness," or a "symbol for freethought," or something else, like naturalism, or science, or math, or...etc, etc. On the one hand, it's hard not to be negative if we go with a "logo for godlessness," and risk excluding our agnostic, humanist, and/or naturalist friends, while on the other, if we want something "positive," we risk being too inclusive and losing focus. Just sayin'.
Posted by: AustinAtheist | November 5, 2006 3:22 PM
I don't think inclusiveness is a problem. If the goal is to create a symbol for freethought, then it'll have to be pretty broad. It doesn't seem to faze the theists that various sects can use the same image to mean wildly different things, why should it faze us?
By the way, affinity is really kind of growing on me.
Posted by: Tom Foss | November 5, 2006 3:25 PM
Heh, the fermata's cute.
Posted by: Damien | November 5, 2006 3:27 PM
Case for DNA (Xeno)
"Xeno" the circle of life.
Posted by: 601 | November 5, 2006 3:29 PM
I'm not opposed to being more inclusive. I could live affinity or a-period.
Posted by: AustinAtheist | November 5, 2006 3:31 PM
Excuse me, "live with." I was just wondering which way the wind was blowing:)
Posted by: AustinAtheist | November 5, 2006 3:35 PM
Definitely the Affinity.
Aesthetic, relatively easy to draw, the A can stand for at least three things.
I really liked "empty" first, but I think the Affinity is less... offputting(?) and can evoke an interested "What does that represent?" question.
Posted by: Y.B | November 5, 2006 3:36 PM
Funny, when I saw the "affinity" symbol I immediately thought it was based on a capital lambda: Λ. I like it because it is unique, though I am not so sure that I understand the symbolism behind it. The biggest problem is that it won't render well in small sizes.
The empty set was my idea, and it pleases me that many people like it: But I won't be upset if it doesn't make the cut. I wouldn't worry too much about any possible confusion with the Danish/Norwegian letter Ø. The empty set is usually (though not universally) written much wider, really a circle with a line through it wheras a the letter Ø is written as an O (sort of elliptically shaped) with a line through it. Here they are side by side, for comparison: Ø∅. How different or similar they will look is quite font dependent, of course.
Like others, I find the galaxy reminds me of a hurricane, or possibly the spin cycle on a washing machine. But the symbolism is powerful, much more so than any other suggestion. It really points out our true origin.
The neutral symbol still bothers me as giving me an SS association. The thought never occurs to me when I see it in sheet music, but taken out of that context it does.
The pi-in-the-circle is nice, but it's more about mathematics than atheism, really! My own department has in fact been using a symbol very much like it (note also the icon that will probably show in your address bar when you visit the page). I think I have seen other math departments using a similar symbol, but can't remember one right now.
Posted by: Harald Hanche-Olsen | November 5, 2006 3:38 PM
Big fan of Xeno.
I think it refers to both freethought and atheism through focus on biological life, the only known source of intellect, as opposed to a deference to the thoughts or very existence of supernatural intellects.
Maybe I should have suggested a neuron (which can be easily stylized).
Posted by: Numad | November 5, 2006 3:41 PM
My vote is the affinity. I don't see this "A" people are talking about. I see a lambda which, among other things, refures to axioms in logical thinking. Yay!!
Posted by: Mike Fox | November 5, 2006 3:41 PM
About the natural symbol... as used in music notation, it's just a corrective symbol that cancels a flat or sharp that would otherwise normally occur in a given key. It actually forces an "unnatural" note in the context of the key being used, unless it's signaling a change to a new key. It's a very technical and specific use of the word "natural" that doesn't have anything to do with "naturalism".
It could even have negative connotations... the idea of force-fitting ideas into a concept of "nature" or "natural" that wouldn't normally occur. But maybe that's a stretch.
Posted by: foldedpath | November 5, 2006 3:51 PM