…and this is a 
A book request
Category: Godlessness
Posted on: December 15, 2006 10:27 AM, by PZ Myers
Now here's a difficult question from a reader:
Long time reader, but only very occasional poster here. A friend asked me to recommend some books to read to small children (2 -5 years old) to teach the basics of atheism. His son is getting exposed to a lot of religious training from his wife, and my friend wants something to present the alternative perspective.
Any suggestions? Feel free to open this up to the blog.
BTW, he is also interested in short books about the sciences suitable to be read to children of the same age as bedtime stories. Suggestions in this category are also welcomed.
I don't have a good answer. Usually, I'd just say that there shouldn't be "atheist" children's books — there's nothing not to teach, and I'd rather kids were just brought up to think for themselves — but this is a request for specific counter-programming against religious indoctrination. Anyone have any suggestions?
Comments
Usually, any ghost-written autobiography by a former boy band member should be enough to convince the child that there is no God.
Posted by: norbizness | December 15, 2006 10:34 AM
I don't know of a specific book, but the classic fable "The Emperor's New Clothes" by Hans Christian Andersen teaches the virtues of questioning authority and looking at things how they really are (not how adults tell you they are).
Posted by: Sonja | December 15, 2006 10:37 AM
Doing it backwards, when they get a little older, encourage them to read the religious bullshit - but from more than one source, and carefully point out that each of these sources calims to be THE ONLY ONE TRUE WAY - and that they contradict each other.
At age 2 - 5, it is more difficult.
How about some potted histories of the crusades, where lots of peole got killed, because of "god".
Or a childs guide to the inquisition ......
Very difficult.
Posted by: G. Tingey | December 15, 2006 10:37 AM
I believe Dan Barker with FFRF has written several childrens books, though I haven't read them myself- I just know they're out there. See here for a list of them:
http://ffrf.org/about/bio_dan.php
Posted by: Deepsix | December 15, 2006 10:37 AM
Pullman's good for older young 'uns (The Golden Compass, The Subtle Knife, and The Amber Spyglass) around 12 and up. They're not a bad read for adults, either. Rather like Harry Potter for Atheists.
I've never seen "There's No God, Sarah" next to "Goodnight, Moon" so I think you may be outta luck there.
Morph
Posted by: MorpheusPA | December 15, 2006 10:39 AM
Read them a bible version geared to kids.
And, no, I'm not being facetious. Read them the bible, along with Greek and Norse mythology, classic fairy tales, etc. Explain that you consider the bible to be the mythology of the Hebrews. The ridiculousness of taking amusing supernatural stories seriously will become readily evident to them. That's what I did with my kids. I didn't have to indoctrinate them in atheism or anything else. I merely helped them develop their critical faculties.
Posted by: Aris | December 15, 2006 10:39 AM
The Dan Barker book is "Just Pretend: A Freethought Book for Children"
"A fun book which allows children of "all ages" to explore myths like Santa Claus and compare them with ideas like the existence of God. Entertaining, respectful of children's intelligence, Just Pretend encourages kids to apply the tests of reason to any idea, fairy tale, myth or religion.
Ages 6-12 recommended (but appropriate for children of "all ages"!), fully illustrated, 72 pages."
It can be ordered from the page below. It's $15.00, member discount available.
http://www.ffrf.org/shop/books/details.php?cat=fbooks&ID=FB4
Posted by: Kevin Dorner | December 15, 2006 10:45 AM
In general, exposing a child to a lot of alegories and fairy tales is a surprisingly good way to counter religious programming of children. Present Cinderella with the same seriousness as is given to Kain and Abel, and you'll set up a mindset such that when the child realizes the one is fantasy, he'll be in a position to realize it about the other, too.
Throwing in some fairy tales like Cinderella whose morals could stand a good, hard examination is especially helpful here: Stories like Kain and Abel and that all-time favorite the Crucifixion have morals that certainly need to be scrutinized.
Posted by: lytefoot | December 15, 2006 10:45 AM
Instead of recommending specific books, recommend that the two (divorced, I presume) parents act like adults and stop waging their immature power struggle.
Of course, there's not much hope. If they couldn't keep it together even this short amount of time, they probably lack the common sense and fortitude to be decent parents.
Posted by: Stephen Erickson | December 15, 2006 10:50 AM
Just expose the kid to a lot of things. My very Catholic mother read me Twain, Poe, Bible stories, Fairy tales... And as long as you raise a kid to question authority they'll end up as an atheist for a little while at least.
Posted by: kyle | December 15, 2006 10:52 AM
I'd throw in an observation that "magic" is very real to this age group, and attempting to make theism look ridiculous could backfire.
However, presenting biblical stories with the same (light)weight as other tales might go a long way toward lessening their importance. And I suspect that helping "them develop their own critical faculties" is much more useful.
Posted by: CrispyShot | December 15, 2006 10:55 AM
A better tactice would be the "junior skeptic" type books. A poster already pointed out Dan Barker. I have a few books, one is called "Maybe Yes, Maybe No" and there are many other in that vain. I'm pretty sure Skeptic has a list of books for kids. Frankly, any detective story would be good since it teaches about evaluating evidence versus blind faith.
Posted by: JYB | December 15, 2006 10:55 AM
A friend asked me to recommend some books to read to small children (2 -5 years old) to teach the basics of atheism.
Read to him from the Book of Judges. That will put anyone off of religion.
.
Posted by: Grand Moff Texan | December 15, 2006 10:55 AM
Why don't you first tell the kids that there's no Santa Clause and that wrestling is fixed. Work your way up from there.
Posted by: Christian Burnham | December 15, 2006 10:57 AM
I'd suggest attending or contacting the local Unitarian Universalist congregation. That way the kids would be exposed to a wealth of good ideas and teachings and both the mom and the dad would be happy (depending on what the goal of the mom really is here.)
Posted by: Will | December 15, 2006 10:58 AM
Give 'em mythology books. It makes it a lot easier to present the Christian myths as myths if a child has familiarity with those of different religions.
To quote from Ambrose Bierce:
BABE or BABY, n. A misshapen creature of no particular age, sex, or condition, chiefly remarkable for the violence of the sympathies and antipathies it excites in others, itself without sentiment or emotion. There have been famous babes; for example, little Moses, from whose adventure in the bulrushes the Egyptian hierophants of seven centuries before doubtless derived their idle tale of the child Osiris being preserved on a floating lotus leaf.
Posted by: Chili Pepper | December 15, 2006 11:00 AM
Give 'em mythology books. It makes it a lot easier to present the Christian myths as myths if a child has familiarity with those of different religions.
To quote from Ambrose Bierce:
BABE or BABY, n. A misshapen creature of no particular age, sex, or condition, chiefly remarkable for the violence of the sympathies and antipathies it excites in others, itself without sentiment or emotion. There have been famous babes; for example, little Moses, from whose adventure in the bulrushes the Egyptian hierophants of seven centuries before doubtless derived their idle tale of the child Osiris being preserved on a floating lotus leaf.
Posted by: Chili Pepper | December 15, 2006 11:03 AM
I found a couple on Amazon that look promising:
What About Gods? (Skeptic's Bookshelf Series) (Paperback)
by Chris Brockman
Humanism, What's That?: A Book for Curious Kids (Paperback)
by Helen Bennett
Life on Earth: The Story of Evolution (Hardcover)
by Steve Jenkins
If you look these up on any of the major websites they should have "People who bought this..." link.
Good Luck!!
Posted by: Stacey | December 15, 2006 11:06 AM
The line... "That's what some people believe."
Worked with me. When I was 5, my dad dragged me to Church/Sunday School out of a vague sense of obligation, and on the first day my mum told me "This is what some people believe. Lots of people believe lots of different things, and you don't have to make your mind up yet". Just knowing that other people thought differently was enough to turn the whole thing into a bit of a freak show. Never believed it for a moment.
Doubt is a mighty shield!
Posted by: SmellyTerror | December 15, 2006 11:07 AM
Just have them read lots of fairy tales and mythology. Then then they a) know all the references for when they study literature in school later b) understand that *all* religion is myth. I am convinced my gorgeous copy of _D'Aulaires Book of Greek Myths_ contributed significantly to my imagination as well as my athiesm.
Posted by: lillet | December 15, 2006 11:09 AM
I don't advocate counter programming, just tell your little ones the truth. Kids have endless curiosity and very good BS detectors. There are some really wonderful books that you can read to young children to help them think about biology. Go to the public library and ask the children's librarian for help. Here are a few of my favorites:
Chickens Aren't the Only Ones by Ruth Heller. All about egg laying animals and their behaviour.
Desert Giant: The World of the Saguaro Cactus by Barbara Bash. Describes the life cycle and ecology of the saguaro.
It's Perfectly Normal by Robie Harris. Everything a child would want to know about human biology/sexuality. The blurb at Barnes and Noble says for middle schoolers, but I bought this for my kids as soon as they could read. My kids loved this book - it opened the way for many terrific conversations with them.
People by Peter Spier. Discusses, illustrates diversity of people all over the world.
Dinosaurs by Robert Sabuda. Pop up book - need I say more?
Posted by: ComfortablyNumb | December 15, 2006 11:15 AM
Our family went a short distance down this road. We attended some Christian services and then some Unitarian services. The kids voiced loud support in favor of the Unitarians. We don't go to church much any more and every religious assertion is open to discussion.
Posted by: TW | December 15, 2006 11:18 AM
While I s'pose you gotta get 'em while they're young, it seems dumb to have to counter-indoctrinate a kid, and it's equally vile.
Smelly got it right; all that matters is "that's what some people believe". If you want to protect a kid from religion, best to use the methods of extinction and devalue religious myths to just that - myths.
Posted by: Patness | December 15, 2006 11:21 AM
Wrestling is fixed?!
Posted by: CJColucci | December 15, 2006 11:22 AM
Several posters already made the good point of reading them old pagan myths alongside the Bible stories. I started reading both around age 6 (along with a lot of junior astronomy and paleontology books), and I credit that early education with building a foundation of skepticism to religion early on. Even a young child might start to wonder why the myths of the bearded guy in the sky changing into cows and swans and golden showers to impregnate innocent young virgins are supposed to be seen as stories while the myth of the other bearded guy in the sky impregnating another innocent young virgin is supposed to be seen as true.
Dawkins is right though: at that age, children can't really be considered followers of a religion. We encourage children of that age to believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, only to pull back the curtain years later.
I think the most important thing is to raise your child with good, moral values without referencing God or divine authority (parental authority is sufficient at that age, or should be--as the poet said: "Mother is the name of God in the mouths of small children"). Also teach by sympathy and reciprocity ("Do you like people hitting you? No? Then you shouldn't hit other people.")--the basis of morality in pretty much every culture, and it doesn't require recourse to supernatural entities.
Posted by: False Prophet | December 15, 2006 11:25 AM
Earth to Audrey by Susan Hughes, Stephane Poulin (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/Earth-Audrey-Susan-Hughes/dp/1553378431
My daughter loves this book (2 and 1/2 years old). It has a nice little bit at the end where a parent discusses the Big Bang to a collection of children lying in the grass looking up into the night sky. It is a children's story not a science book. But the story provides a way for a parent to introduce the ideas of a natural universe by using the story as a starting point.
Posted by: Dunesong | December 15, 2006 11:34 AM
I was faced with a similar problem. My ex-husband went off the deep end after we separated and turned fundamentalist christian. My son gets shoved an unhealthy dose of christian teachings down his throat on a weekly basis, and I was forced to counter-balance some of that. I did it by checking out books on religion from the library. I got him books on greek gods, hindu gods, rastfarianism, you name it. I emphasized that they are ALL stories. And that people truly believe in the story that they have been thought. I then told him that it was up to him whether to believe any of the stories, but that it was ultimately his choice. I talk to him every chance we get, and every time my ex makes a comment like "your mother is going to burn in hell," I use it as a teaching moment. I teach my son about true morals, and I can use our household as an example. My husband now is (if that's even possible) even more of an atheist than I am, and we run a perfectly normal, harmonious household without all the gobbledigook (how do you spell that, English is not my first language) of religion. I just recently got him a bunch of science books about life and evolution, I talk to him about the nonsense of "good" and "bad" spirits and angels, and believing in a "holy" book. I tell him over and over that he can make his own choices. He used to be a little confused, but he is a sharp kid, and he is starting to get it. He loves his father (and he is also a little scared of him) and that makes it hard for him. But he will be ok, he has learned to question, to wonder and to not believe everything that is being fed to him. And he will often make off-hand remarks that indicate that he will not be fooled. Considering we live in the South, this is not easily accomplished. But really, the short answer for me was to expose him to many religions.
Posted by: makita | December 15, 2006 11:36 AM
I forgot to mention this example. My second son was born with special needs, and my son remarked a couple of weeks ago that there couldn't be a god. How could god possible make children like his little brother. That's just cruel. It was a little painful to hear it expressed like that, but it is so true. There is no omnibenevolent god. And I was very proud of my son that he could see it in those terms, as opposed to the junk he's being fed of "god works in mysterious way," and "he has a reason for doing this," or even worse "your mom and husband are getting punished for their lack of believe."
Posted by: makita | December 15, 2006 11:40 AM
At age 10, give the kids Dawkins's letter to his daughter about what are good and bad reasons to believe something.
http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/dawkins2.html
Posted by: Adam | December 15, 2006 11:43 AM
Not to point out the obvious, but shouldn't these parents be able to talk about and figure this out on their own? If the father doesn't want the child exposed to christian doctrine, he should just stand up to his wife and say so. Sure, you can read different stories and try to compete for a child's beliefs, but really, the husband needs to not be a wimp here, and just refuse to let his wife expose his child to beliefs he believes are wrong.
Don't scheme, don't compete, just discuss it with the wife, and bring it to a stop. If she won't stop, well, that's a larger issue in the family than a few children's books can solve. A fundamental divergence in beliefs...this is something they should have figured out BEFORE having the child in the first place.
Posted by: aweb | December 15, 2006 11:44 AM
ages 2 to 5! that is really young to expect someone to choose beliefs, but not too young to get them interested in things they don't know about, asking questions -- building the basis for critical thinking, as several said.
i agree with the suggestions of exposing the kids to lots of different things, and when the subject of beliefs comes up, using that line, "some people believe that. people believe different things."
my kids loved books about science and history. there is/was a great series called "eyewitness books," with wonderful pictures and text that works for different developmental stages. any kinds of stories about human behavior -- and that includes the biblical stories trotted out for little kids -- is a jumping off point for talking about what is right and wrong, what might be true or might be made-up, etc. myths and fairy tales are also good for talking about the true/not real stuff.
i came by my atheism honestly, having been raised in a church and then discovering fairly that i couldn't make myself believe things that did not make sense. i never told my kids things like, "we are atheists," and remember being somewhat stunned the day my young son announced he believed in god. [a friend's mother had been working to save him, it turned out.] so i just asked why, and i think at the time he liked the idea of the big man upstairs taking care of things. i said some people believe that, and we moved along to his passion at the time, reading about "the ancients of egypt," who of course had a lot of ideas about gods and their powers.
it seems much more important to develop critical thinking skills and foster interest in a broad range of subjects than to try indoctrinating little kids. sounds like these babes are getting plenty of indoctrination from the other side, and i'm definitely against using kids as fodder for parental disagreements.
Posted by: kathy a | December 15, 2006 11:45 AM
Oh, and the same applies if the genders were reversed...re-reading my post, it might come off with a "man in control, wife obey" dumbass vibe. Lack of writing skills and proofreading on my part, not what I mean.
Posted by: aweb | December 15, 2006 11:49 AM
I'd add two things -
1) Take your child to the bookstore with you. I remember that my mother did this and she would let me go figure it out for myself...I can't say that I ended up in the Nietzsche aisle that often, but I do remember being very familair with Greek and Roman mythology from a young age. I'm not sure I made the explicit connection between the supernatural deities in mythology with the Judeo-Christian equivalents...but even after 8 years of Catholic schooling I didn't by the whole God thing.
2) This is, I think, in very large part due to the fact that my mother didn't have me baptized as a baby. I wore that "I'm not baptized" badge very proudly and professed that she did it so I could make an informed decision when I was ready ...right now I'm stuck somewhere between a Dennett atheist and a Sagan agnostic. Perhaps communicating to a child that they have this freedom to chose (regardless of whether or not they understand the implications of that freedom early on) is as effective a lesson as can come out of any book.
Posted by: Christopher | December 15, 2006 11:49 AM
At a slightly older age level, it gets much easier. I remember devouring a whole series of Isaac Asimov science-for-kids books (the "Library of the Universe" series published by Gareth Stevens, I think). They were each about thirty pages long, had lots of pictures, and covered topics like Stars, Black Holes, Asteroids, Comets and Meteors, etc. I first learned about black hole evaporation and the long lifetime of red dwarf stars from these books. Being an enthusiastic reader, I read these myself, but a parent could also read them aloud. The Eyewitness Science series covers lots of subjects and, at a guess, would be suitable for ages 8 or 9 and up.
I'll add my support to all the voices above clamoring for mythology books. Illustrated versions of the classic myths — Pegasus and Bellerophon, Perseus and Medusa, the Osiris family — are not hard to come by, and they put children on the road to a classical education which can bring rewards throughout a lifetime. Once the munchkins hit middle school, introduce them to the wonderful world of Larry Gonick and his Cartoon Guides. Trust me, even the most risque panels — like his version of King David and Bathsheba — are nothing compared to what your kids hear and say every day in junior high.
At the younger ages, however, books may be the wrong approach — or at least they shouldn't be the entire deal. Religion tells you to get your wisdom out of authority figures and dusty tomes, but science investigates the natural world. I remember my father and I playing with the Visible Man kit when I was about four (and the house was filled with Capsula pieces when I was five or six). What about magnifying glasses for looking at rocks and leaves and bugs? I mean, what little kid doesn't love bugs?!
(Read Richard Feynman's stories in Surely You're Joking for ideas on cool things to look at under magnification.)
Take your children to science museums. The best ones have endless quantities of hands-on exhibits which make lights and noise; it's not a graduate class in quantum field theory, but it will build the very important connection between "science" and "having fun". Find IMAX theaters and planetaria. Go stargazing and connect those Greek myths with the constellations. "The stars are other suns, very far away. There aren't really people in the sky. But these are the stories people used to tell many-many-many years ago, to remember what the sky looked like and to have fun around a campfire. . . ."
Posted by: Blake Stacey | December 15, 2006 11:49 AM
Wrestling is fixed?!
It's still real to me, dammit!
Posted by: agum | December 15, 2006 11:51 AM
I don't really favor the "deprogramming" tack here, but I like the idea of introducing kids to many different mythologies. Seeing many different beliefs is the best argument against religion, and mythology is just plain fun.
As to the suggestion of using "The Golden Compass", I'm a bit ambivalent. I enjoy the books enormously (particularly since my research focuses on dark matter!) and they take a novel, freethinking stance which is very refreshing in fantasy. Unfortunately I found the conclusion of the trilogy surprisingly disappointing. The author builds things up wonderfully, but it feels like at the very end he lets his message (atheism and the evils of organized religion, in this case, so it's a good message!) get in the way of telling a good story.
Posted by: JeffF | December 15, 2006 11:52 AM
I think that agnosticism, if not atheism, is a natural byproduct of strong, critical facilities. Any book or exercise that encourages critical though--maybe even try some very simple science experiments/demonstrations--should limit the effect of religious instruction.
However, to some degree the outcome is out of your hands.
A good friend was educated in fundamentalist Pentecostal schools through 8th grade: apparently, recycling is sinful because it suggests that the Earth will not be made anew by White Jesus ™. Despite all that, he is doing a Ph.D. in linguistics and is one of the sharpest, critical thinkers that I know. Years and years of religious indoctrination failed to make him religious, or even sympathetic to religion.
Posted by: Ethan Romero | December 15, 2006 11:57 AM
A campaign of counter-programming? Sheesh. Hardly should be neccessary at that age. But if the person really wants to then reading children's version of other mythologies would, at least, have the child considering that other Gods have been believed to exist. And once you accept many, and are told to reject some, then the leap to rejecting others is pretty easy.
I have to wonder though as it seems from the letter that this reader is trying to do this on the sly from their spouse. This seems odd because kids are pretty darn smart and the fact that the parents clearly believe different things automatically will force them to look at the issue critically rather than automatically accept it as true. Their split loyalties will require this split belief structure while they decide which way to fall.
Unless, of course, the parent who doesn't believe is going along with the whole church thing to please their spouse and so is trying to counter the indoctrination on the sly.
In that case, they will have made their own task far more difficult by giving false credence to something they don't really believe and also risk seeming dishonest to their child when they try to counter on Saturday the lessons they all go to learn on Sunday.
And, to my mind, a lesson that dishonesty is good is NOT what you want to be giving at that age....
If this parent is going to church with the family but wants to teach their child to ignore it, then I say suck it up, lead by example, and stop going to church! Otherwise your own skepticism should be more than enough to compell your child to keep an open mind.
Posted by: Mike | December 15, 2006 11:57 AM
Well, SOME wrestling is fixed.
Bruno Sammartino, man...he was REAL.
Posted by: CCP | December 15, 2006 11:59 AM
D'Oh!: that should read 'faculties' not 'facilities'
Posted by: Ethan Romero | December 15, 2006 11:59 AM
I have a 10 year old girl and a 13 year old boy. They have both been raised as atheists. I have asked them to help me write this.
#1: My children love The Berenstain Bears. There are about 100 books, and all of them are gentle and thoughtful, explaining positive ways to becoming a better person. FYI: Father Bear in the Dr. Seuss series of BB's books is funny but pretty stupid. Don't think that all the BB books are like that. The authors took a different and better stance in their "golden books", and those are the ones my kids really like. I really do think we have almost every single BB except one, called: The Big Question. That's the only book that discusses religion. That one, we left in the book store. And, the TV show now appears on PBS. And, there are a ton of videos and DVDs of BB. I can't begin to tell you how many times the BB have been read and watched, even now by my 10 year old. It's a great investment since a toddler will still be watching/reading the BB 7 years later.
And, videos/TV with book tie-ins:
Little Bear: excellent TV show on Noggin/Nick about family values and friendship and caring. Personally, I wanted to be a mom just like "Mother Bear". She's a terrific role model for me, as a kind and playful mom. Little Bear was my daughter's birthday theme at age 4.
DragonTales: my kids thought this show was "cool". And, some Christians hate DragonTales because the children teleport through their bedroom wall. There are whole Internet sites devoted to bashing DragonTales. All the more reason to watch it! DragonTales was my daughter's birthday theme at age 5.
Amazing Animal videos: Henry, the lizard, is a very funny and silly character that appears in all the videos and he interacts with the human narrator. It's an entire series of videos, that cover all sorts of animals. The series is based on science and facts, but is really funny.
Zoboomafoo: wonderful series and TV show. Very educational but lots of fun. And, as a mom, you can develop a crush on both of the Kratt Brothers.
Magic School Bus videos and books: maybe a bit too old for a toddler, but it's worth trying. The MSB series came out with a younger kid version, to appeal to the PreK-K set a few years ago, like "Liz Makes a Rainbow". My kids like "The Busasaurus" a lot. My daughter likes "Getting Energized".
You might have a tough time finding these videos on DVD, but your local library should have copies.
There are also a bunch of MSB at your local library.
Try your local library first, before buying anything.
Another series of great books is the "Help Me Be Good" series by Joy Berry. You should be able to find used books, pretty easily.
Basically, if you stick with any of the PBS Kids or Noggin TV shows and book tie-ins, you'll be fine. All of the programs teach good moral lessons along with being a good friend, going to the dentist, etc, without the appearance of any religious doctrine.
Look for books that use animals as the main characters, acting anthropomorphicly. That way, kids learn ideas color blind. That's why Arthur and the Berenstain Bears and Little Bear are so appealing, every child (regardless of skin color or creed or national origin) can relate to the actions of the characters.
And, make plans/save your money to send your kids to Camp Quest. There are several camps in the US and Canada. My kids went last year, and it was a wonderful week for them.
http://www.camp-quest.org/
Posted by: WayBeyondSoccerMom | December 15, 2006 12:01 PM
I think if one parent is pushing a specific belief system the other parent just needs to educate the child about other cultures beliefs and history of deities. Give the kid TONS of imaginary spirits to learn about. Then it'll be, "why is mom's so special?" "I like the (fill in the blank god) better he rides a Chariot!." Norse gods could be pretty fun.
Posted by: Steve_C | December 15, 2006 12:01 PM
I have to agree with most of the people here. The best way to deal with something like that is to give kids information. I have never believed in supernatural stuff, and I think it is mostly because my parents allowed me to read whatever I liked. Dad even went through the trouble of convincing the library staff that I should be allowed to borrow whatever I wanted, even though I usually couldn't reach it and had to ask some adult to get it for me.
I still do remember one particular book of Greek mythology I read over and over again and I do hold a soft spot for Book of Relevation which was my second favourite fairytale:P
Posted by: Rakel | December 15, 2006 12:02 PM
Say what? I'm assuming the parents here are divorced, in which case the father has no legal authority to prevent the mother from teaching religion to the child. Unless it's in the divorce decree, which seems unlikely. Doesn't matter which of them is custodial, either. Since teaching religion is not illegal, she's within her rights to do it.
And, much as it pains me to say it, that's the way it should be. Else who decides which teachings are allowed and which aren't? I just hope the father can provide enough weight to the side of reason.
(If the parents are still married, that's a slightly different kettle of jesus-fish, but in a real-life relationship "just standing up and saying so" isn't generally a solution to this sort of conflict.)
Posted by: Johnny Vector | December 15, 2006 12:07 PM
Equally important is "that's a good question". Encourage them to ask questions. Take the questions seriously. Give answers which lead them onto more questions.
But as others have said, at 2-5 don't worry about it much. 8 or 9 is quite early enough.
Posted by: Stephen | December 15, 2006 12:08 PM
I have always liked Dr. Seuss. I never looked for any religious messages, hidden or other, so I can't say that there isn't any, but I don't recognize them if there are.
There is also a site which has games on it.
http://www.seussville.com/
Posted by: bernarda | December 15, 2006 12:09 PM
Give them everything. Science, and the natural world, and also a full pantheon of gods and monsters. Tell them stories from the Bible and stories from the Iliad. Puss N' Boots and Beowulf. Give them everything, model how you want them to think for themselves, then hold your breath.
SH
Posted by: Scott Hatfield | December 15, 2006 12:09 PM
Instead of recommending specific books, recommend that the two (divorced, I presume) parents act like adults and stop waging their immature power struggle.
Yeah, I agree. Divorced is the more charitable assumption; my first read of the quoted e-mail was that they were still married, just dysfunctionally.
Not having any kids, I don't have any specific advice here, other than to say that my personal history supports the suggestions of Greek mythology. I read quite a bit of mythology as a kid. D'Aulaire's Book of Greek Mythology was one book I liked, with pictures and everything. Looking back, it was somewhat Bowdlerized, but still has a little of everything about the Hellenistic pantheon. I read that a lot as a kid, and I'm an atheist now. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, I realize, but still.
Posted by: Cyrus | December 15, 2006 12:13 PM
i was assuming the family is separated, but maybe not. doesn't matter -- little kids being forced to choose between their parents is bad, and critical thinking is good.
the suggestion of science museums [and other kid-friendly venues for discovering the world in all its glory] is a great one! having a larger and more interesting world available, and being allowed to question things -- those are key tools a growing kid will use.
i can't tell you how many wonderful, very competent, caring people i know are fallen catholics. [and the fallen of other former faiths, too -- but the catholics of my generation have the best stories, in my opinion.] religious indoctrination is not necessarily fatal, so long as there are tools to sort it out.
Posted by: kathy a | December 15, 2006 12:13 PM
How could I be so forgetful? I wrote a whole, lengthy comment and didn't say a single word of praise for Calvin and Hobbes!
Off-topic: The Neurophilosopher ran an article about how quantum mechanics may play a role in olfactory perception. Within three posts, well-known woomeister Stuart Hameroff showed up in the comments thread to link this with "quantum consciousness". People, please. We're talking about protein molecules here, not even anything as big as a synapse, let alone a whole neuron. Finding a better model than the old lock-and-key idea for describing how receptors work is pretty cool, but it's got squat to do with consciousness. (I mean, if you read The Double Helix, you find people all the way back in the 1950s were trying to use quantum mechanics to see which DNA structures could be stable. Linus Pauling's quantum approach to chemistry swept the field during World War II. Does any of this lead credence to quantum quackery? Of course not.)
I hereby make a falsifiable prediction: D.H. and Deepak Chopra will both make merry with this idea. Quick, somebody give me a quantum anaesthetic, because headaches are on the way.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | December 15, 2006 12:20 PM
Since we're coming up on the 10th anniversary of his passing, maybe its timely to suggest Carl Sagan's Cosmos - its not "kids reading" - but there is enough in there that can certainly get a young mind's gears spinning.
Posted by: Christopher | December 15, 2006 12:20 PM
I have at home several books on human evolution with great pics of fossils and reconstructions. My kids love leafing thru them. I'm hoping that presenting them with lot of evidence directly contradicting creationism will help. So far though, my 7-year old just loves teasing me with her proclamation about believing in god. She senses how it bothers me. One day soon, when she's ready for that Santa is just a myth, I will add god to it. ;)
Posted by: Hans | December 15, 2006 12:21 PM
I found Aesop's fables to be very fascinating as a child and I think I discovered them around age 5....I think they might be very appropriate, stories like the sun and the wind as well as the fox and the grapes. A bit older than the new testament as well.
Posted by: spin sycle | December 15, 2006 12:23 PM
I grew up in a very fundamental church 3 times a week literal genesis the whole ball of wax kinda household. I learned to read kinda early and loved reading mythologies, but my favorite were Jack Tales. and Revelation and Genesis. At about 7 or 8 or 9 I realized that the people I knew at church were all full of shit. The painful part is that my parents didn't realize that, and I know a little something about the anger of a converted atheist. I think good critical thinking and reading skills, combined with getting outside and naturalizing, are crucial for avoiding the God-disease. After watching and listening to god-botherers in my early years I realized they were off on a lark.
Posted by: Erasmu | December 15, 2006 12:27 PM
I second Jenkins' "Life on Earth: The Story of Evolution." While not a specifically atheist book, the straightforward and engaging presentation of evolutionary theory goes a long way toward countering some of the goofier claims of religion. It's one of my kids' (5 and 7) favorite science books. (We have one agnostically-oriented kid and one who says if he were going to worship something, it would be the Olympian gods.)
There are also lots of resources for teaching freethought at Teaching About Religion which might be of interest. Most of them are aimed at a slightly older audience, but you could always adapt for your own family.
Posted by: RedMolly | December 15, 2006 12:29 PM
Read many tales: Grimm's fairy tales, Andersen's fairy tales, fairy tales from around the world, Greek and other myth, and read the Bible just in unexpurgated translation - including the violent bits and the wild tales. Bible in its original version is not sugary as the evangelical fundies make it, and it will make children realize how wildly out from the original the fundies are. Quran is much more boring,and the Book of Mormon bottom of the list as reading material.
Posted by: Heleen | December 15, 2006 12:36 PM
I'm reading my 3 y/o lots of books about the natural world and science and encouraging her to ask "why" questions. This isn't specifically counter-religious teaching, but it does teach her to question authority, listen to the answers, and question some more. And teaches her that people are a part of nature, not something different grafted onto--or granted dominion over--it.
I'm not sure that this is so good, but she's also learned about how some moral problems are insoluble: the prey animal wants to live but the predator is hungry and needs to eat. That problem can't be solved without one or the other's needs being unmet. But then again real life can be like that: sometimes there is no good answer.
Posted by: Dianne | December 15, 2006 12:38 PM
Read the child a book of myths and fables from all over the world. When I was a child, I liked both stories about cowtail switches(and how some brothers found their dad dead from hunting and brought him back to life with their supernatural powers) and my illustrated book of bible stories. Books from all over the world will give the child a broader perspective.
Posted by: shannon | December 15, 2006 12:44 PM
Rather off topic, but I am a teacher at a special needs school which is moderately infested with religious types. We have a rota for assemblies and one of mine falls on February 12th - Darwin's Birthday. Is there an easily downloadable short clip explaining the basics of evolution that anyone knows of out there?. Target audience is chronologically 12 - 16 years but developmentally 5 - 9 years.
Posted by: Don | December 15, 2006 12:54 PM
What are the best picture-heavy books about dinosaurs?
Posted by: Blake Stacey | December 15, 2006 12:55 PM
My parents just included bible stories in with all the other myths they were reading to me -- Greek Myths, Native American legends... and Noah's Ark.... treat them all the same and don't eleveate one over the other, and you wind up with the impression that every culture has come up with their own explanations of the origin of the earth.
Then you get some of the early science books on the universe and evolution (this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618164766/ref=wl_it_dp/102-2456047-8540131?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3O5YG5BC6NM69&colid=1R0MFAQ2O3520 is pretty good and actually will work for much younger than grades 3-6 -- its a PICTURE book...)
and present it as "those myths are from before we figured out how it worked." or something like that.
Posted by: sara | December 15, 2006 12:58 PM
The Fable of the Dragon Tyrant by Nick Bostrom:
http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html
Posted by: Joe | December 15, 2006 1:03 PM
Not a book suggestion to read to children, or have them read, but a source of good ideas: Philosophy and the Young Child, by Gareth Matthews. It's about how to recognize and elicit conversations about philosophy in young children... not in a pointy-headed way, but a critical, interesting way. I liked it because it a: helped me value the excellent insights and observations children make, b: suggested ways -- without being dictatorial -- to open up conversations about perceptions and ideas that can only help in the development of thoughtful, reflective people (both parents and children, it seems to me).
Posted by: Clare | December 15, 2006 1:07 PM
Although, as a divorced parent, I am not sure if it is good for parents to play "tug of war" over religion through the kids; I do agree that detective stories, even the "pet detective" type of stories are good for building critical thinking skills. Even Sherlock Holmes' (though written by a creationist) methods are great for teaching how to determine the truth; when all alternatives are eliminated, that which remains, no matter how implausible, must be the solution. Ergo, no God. But we don't have to say that out loud.
Posted by: Mike Haubrich | December 15, 2006 1:21 PM
I just throw an occassional comment at my kids -
"Do you think that could really happen?"
along with an occassional -
"Dad doesn't believe in the supernatural/magic/ghost/vampires/..."
Although they have had lots of exposure to Catholicism, not one of them believes the Adam and Eve, or Noah's Ark stories.
I think as long as the kids know not everyone is buying what religions are selling they retain their skeptical nature.
Posted by: No One of Consequence | December 15, 2006 1:26 PM
Simplest solution: Buy children's books on Greek mythology, Nordic myths, Vedic myths, ancient Egypt, etc. A child exposed to the great sweep of cultural myths probably will realize that the Bible is just one more story. Certainly, one cannot instruct a child into a null belief system. One can however, teach context and let intelligence and eventual maturity take care of the rest.
Posted by: Mothra | December 15, 2006 2:34 PM
I came up with an idea for a freethinker's children's camp to counter the christian camps. Maybe we have a problem making atheism as much 'fun' as christianity, since we don't have archery and horseback riding?
http://nelsonblaha.blogspot.com/2006/12/camp-reason.html
Posted by: Nelson Blaha | December 15, 2006 2:39 PM
Teach those kids the basics of science and the atheism will come naturally. Worked for me when I was in short pants -- I read nothing but dinosaur books from the time I was 4-years old all through my childhood. Also, take the whippersnappers out for a walk in the woods. Show them all the critters, great and small; teach them early about the wonders of nature. Take them to zoos, museums and your local planetarium. Once they get turned on to the natural world, they'll (hopefully) never retreat into the womb of superstition and faith in a Spooky Sky Being.
Posted by: NEL | December 15, 2006 2:44 PM
Don, for video summarizing evolution:
Not to overlook the obvious at PBS: a short downloadable video on the process of evolution. It's not kid-focused, but it's accurate and relatively short. I'd perhaps follow it by expanding on its hummingbird example, to the overpopulation of cats & dogs - more familiar - and even dogs have many sub-species now, tho due to artificial selection rather than natural.
The PBS site has more videos:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/index.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/educators/teachstuds/svideos.html - for students
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/educators/teachstuds/tvideos.html - for teachers
A more up-tempo (with cartoon dodos) discussion of evolution, contrasted with ID, is at the movie site www.flockofdodos.com -- but again not kid-focused.
This earlier discussion of science books
includes Will E's recc responding to a request for a well illustrated evolution
book for 5th to 8th grade. And I thought there was a separate discussion focused entirely on science books for kids about then too but can't find it easily now.
Posted by: thwaite | December 15, 2006 2:44 PM
Said Christopher: I can't say that I ended up in the Nietzsche aisle that often (as a kid).
So sad, we all were deprived until this genius stroke of cartoon sillyness appeared:
The Nietzsche Family Circus
Posted by: thwaite | December 15, 2006 2:45 PM
Even Sherlock Holmes' (though written by a creationist)...
ACD was a creationist? I know he was a spiritualist, and he's sometimes touted as a possible participant in the Piltdown hoax. But I hadn't heard he was a creationist (at least, no more so than any other Victorian gentleman -- 100 years ago, some sort of creationism was still almost a respectable position. It's only the subsequent advance of knowledge that has increasingly made it into the intellectually marginal refuge of those with overriding ideological commitments, and the charlatans who prey on them).
Posted by: Steve Watson | December 15, 2006 2:56 PM
You could refer the question to Maeve: http://www.maevevisserknoth.com).
Here's a loosely related article she wrote on Bibliotherapy: http://www.hbook.com/publications/magazine/articles/may06_knoth.asp
Posted by: Bruce | December 15, 2006 3:45 PM
The Pullman books are very good but are not atheistic. In them, God is very real, but he's the Bad Guy. Still, they are probably good for warping your children.
But let me recommend The Tree of Life, an illustrated biography of Charles Darwin by the wonderful Peter Sis.
Posted by: mtraven | December 15, 2006 3:52 PM
I may as well plug my little Tree of Life Browser while I'm at it.
And mention that Rudyard Kipling's Just So Stories are Lysenkoist, but I and my kids like them anyway.
Posted by: mtraven | December 15, 2006 4:02 PM
My suggestion would be:
Haroun and the Sea of Stories by Salman Rushdie.
It's a great book to read aloud, fun, and smart.. pretty close to The Hobbit, with appeal that's just as wide. It's not exactly athiestic, but it does have a great appeal for the values of a skeptic: being open-minded, honest, rejection of secrecy, leading by consunsus rather than authority. Heck, to be honest, I've forgotten some of the themes... time to go find my copy again!
For older kids (once they're old enough to want to read on their own) I ditto the suggest of Pullman.
---Nathaniel, who has no kids but has juvinille reading habits.
Posted by: DrNathaniel | December 15, 2006 4:08 PM