…and this is a 
Kent Hovind: 10 years!
Category: Creationism
Posted on: January 19, 2007 5:35 PM, by PZ Myers
Shelley the Republican says:
We conservatives have grown accustomed to liberal activist judges perverting justice for their own evil ends. Last year Judge Jones betrayed us all when he passed his verdict in the Dover school-book case. Shortly afterwards, our dear friend Kent was convicted of tax evasion.
U.S. District Judge Casey Rodgers will sentence the Hovinds at 9 a.m for the alleged crime of tax evasion. They claim that he and his lovely wife Jo owe the state almost one million dollars in unpaid taxes. A quick review of the case show that the federal court unfairly denied Hovind's sensible and truthful defence: Kent owes no tax because everything he "owns" is really property of God. This is a fact that we would all do well to remember!
So please dear friends, join me in prayer this morning. Let us pray to Jesus that Kent and Jo will be allowed to continue their important ministry and continue teaching young scientists about the many flaws in Darwin's theory of evolution.
Prayer doesn't work, I guess.
Pensacola evangelist Kent Hovind was sentenced Friday afternoon to 10 years in prison on charges of tax fraud.
After a lengthy sentencing hearing that last 5 1/2 hours, U.S. District Judge Casey Rodgers ordered Hovind also:
-- Pay $640,000 in restitution to the Internal Revenue Service.
-- Pay the prosecution's court costs of $7,078.
-- Serve three years parole once he is released from prison.
Hovind's wife, Jo Hovind, also was scheduled to be sentenced. Rodgers postponed her sentencing until March 1 to allow her defense attorney an opportunity to argue possible discrepancies in sentencing guidelines.
Prior to his sentencing, a tearful Kent Hovind, also known as "Dr. Dino" asked for the court's leniency.
"If it's just money the IRS wants, there are thousands of people out there who will help pay the money they want so I can go back out there and preach," Hovind said.
This is very unseemly, but … BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Maybe God just doesn't answer Republican prayers anymore.
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Comments
I thought that Shelley thing was a parody. That "property of God" bit made be figure it must be a parody, but I guess not. Some people are beyond help, I suppose, like the little old ladies still sending their SS checks to Jim Baker after he was proven to be a crook. P.T. Barnum was right.
Posted by: afterthought | January 19, 2007 5:42 PM
In another fine case of hooey-skewering, James Randi points out that Sylvia Browne told the parents of recently-recovered teen Shawn Hornbeck that their son was definitely dead, his body would be found in the woods, and that his abductor was a dreadlocked Hispanic man with a blue car.
Wanna put any bets on whether this will shut her down forever?
Posted by: Warren | January 19, 2007 5:44 PM
That's not very nice. It is also hilarious.
Posted by: elmore | January 19, 2007 5:48 PM
That site is parody. They don't even delete "obscene" comments
Posted by: Jones | January 19, 2007 5:51 PM
"If it's just money the IRS wants, there are thousands of people out there who will help pay the money they want so I can go back out there and preach," Hovind said.
No no no, Kent. The IRS doesn't want the money you owe from thousands of people, they want it from YOU.
Posted by: David L. | January 19, 2007 5:52 PM
I'm gonna have fun with my own blog on this one. Not only is Hovind completely unrepentent, but completely oblivious. As usual, he just doesn't get it. The sentence wasn't just about the IRS wanting its money, it's about punishment for wilfully and knowingly committing a tax fraud! They should have tacked on a few years for his suggesting that T. rex was a herbivore.
Far be it for me to gloat, but I'll join in with my own BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Posted by: Randy | January 19, 2007 5:52 PM
Property of god my ass. If you want to believe that, then everything is the property of god. 'Render unto Caesar' punk.
Posted by: jba | January 19, 2007 5:52 PM
If Hovind prays sincerely, I think God is obligated to pony up enough money to clear his debts. That's right out of the "prosperity gospel" that many modern preachers are hawking these days. Name it and claim it, Kent!
Posted by: Zeno | January 19, 2007 5:56 PM
Shelley is indeed a parody, and quite well known. There's some searingly good parody in that site if you look for more than a few minutes.
Posted by: Millimeter Wave | January 19, 2007 5:57 PM
...
...
Translating loosely from: "If it's just money the IRS wants, there are thousands of people out there who will help pay the money they want so I can go back out there and preach," Hovind said, "Hey, IRS, just let me keep fleecing the sheep, and we can BOTH make a lot of money."
Something similar is taking place in Miami right now.
"Apostle Estevam" and "Bishop Sonia," founders of a 1,200-church "Reborn in Christ" Pentecostal empire in Brazil, came to the U.S. with a little extra cash on them. A bit more than the $10,000 they declared at Customs.
I love this part:
"Agents found the first extra bundle of cash, $9,000, tucked into the cover of Sonia's Bible (emphasis mine). They found other bundles of money squirreled away in various places, including inside a CD case, in a folded jacket packed in a suitcase and in the backpack of their young son, Gabriel, according to the arrest affidavit. The grand total: $56,000."
They were arrested by the FBI at U.S. Customs, bailed out, then arrested again by Immigration the instant they were released. And then, bad news back home:
"A Brazilian court issued arrest warrants for the couple ... after investigators there argued that the charges against them in Miami were proof that they were laundering money, evading taxes and that the cash they brought to the United States might eventually be used to flee Brazilian justice."
So sad. They're accused of taking church donations and buying "mansions, real estate and other valuable assets worth millions of dollars both in Brazil and in the United States," according to the Sao Paulo organized crime unit.
Like Jim and Tammie Faye Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Kent Hovind, and so many others, the long carefree campaign of preying on the sick and weak comes to a very nasty, very public end.
...
...
Posted by: Hank Fox | January 19, 2007 5:58 PM
I think this is a great opportunity for Dr Dino to discover some earthly pleasures, that his friend Ted Haggard been enjoying until recently ... ;)
Posted by: hans | January 19, 2007 6:00 PM
For those who have followed Mr. Dino for some time, you might check out YouTube for a video of Ali G and Dr. Hovind in a group interview together. Normally I wouldn't wish Ali G's antics on anyone, but Hovind (I think avoiding calling him Dr. for a fake doctorate is deserved) is one of the few people who deserves it. I'd feel a lot less sorry for the guy if I thought he was really in it for the money, and isn't actually *that* misguided.
Posted by: Brett Keller | January 19, 2007 6:00 PM
Kent Hovind is a creepy, criminal ass.
I just don't understand how society benefits from locking this guy up. I think a very few, violent criminals are the only ones who should be in cages, and our big brains should find a bunch of creative, rehabilitative, dare we say corrective means of justice.
Alas, prison is a big moneymaker for some folks, and, in the US at least, a load of our taxes perpetuate it. Fear, ignorance and scattershot revenge, combined with apathy and ignorance, is all it takes to grow the largest bunch of human cages in the world. Did I say "ignorance" twice?
Yes, I did.
Posted by: Skeptyk | January 19, 2007 6:07 PM
Another nail in the coffin of that "only Christians can be moral" myth. Incidentally, what's up with that silly Shelley gal? Check out this nugget of ignorance:
http://www.shelleytherepublican.com/2007/01/19/of-pandas-wolves-birds-and-people.aspx
Posted by: Brando | January 19, 2007 6:10 PM
I just don't understand how society benefits from locking this guy up. I think a very few, violent criminals are the only ones who should be in cages, and our big brains should find a bunch of creative, rehabilitative, dare we say corrective means of justice.
Given the extent to which our prison population outstrips any other country in the world (per capita, and including all the nastiest places) this sentiment is hard to argue with. But given that this is how we do business, that's what we do with a guy like that.
I do see more reason to lock up a guy like Hovind than say, a guy who sells a small amount of cocaine (say the amount that Bush and Bath probably sold in Texas that landed Bush in community service). Namely, that Hovind does more harm than a smalltime drug dealer, or burglar. Not just the mental harm -- let's pretend that's non-existent for now -- but hit in the pocketbook harm. He's stealing from others when he convinces people to give up their money so he can live large.
Posted by: QrazyQat | January 19, 2007 6:16 PM
Hans says: I think this is a great opportunity for Dr Dino to discover some earthly pleasures, that his friend Ted Haggard been enjoying until recently ... ;)
I really hope you mean consensual sex, like Haggard had, and that this is not a rape joke.
Posted by: Skeptyk | January 19, 2007 6:19 PM
It is hard to believe that Hovind could not see where this was headed years ago. I have talked with him twice, and I have to say that rationality was not his longsuit.
Posted by: Dave Puskala | January 19, 2007 6:21 PM
*points and laughs*
self-inflicted AND FUNNY!!!
Posted by: spin sycle | January 19, 2007 6:30 PM
I agree, Qat, about Hovind doing much more harm, mental and fiscal, to the state, than small time drug users/sellers. They shouldn't be in cages either, of course.
Hovind's slap at the entire community (by not paying for community services via taxes) is a much greater crime, morally, than the small drug crimes.
Posted by: Skeptyk | January 19, 2007 6:31 PM
I can't believe he got only 10 years, given that prison is currently our national style.
Posted by: toucantoad | January 19, 2007 6:33 PM
Wow. That means I have 10 years to set up a small publishing company. When Hovind gets out, I'll be the first publisher to accept whatever poorly written, rambling pile of hand-written-in-crayon nonsense he produces when he decides to write a book about the experience. The martyr dollars will be huge. I'll make a fortune.
Posted by: Troublesome Frog | January 19, 2007 6:40 PM
I didn't think it was possible for there to be anything more joyous and pleasurable than watching a crooked politician going to jail. I was wrong. If only there was a way we could make Hovind feel more miserable than he already does. Any chance we see him frog marched off to his jail cell? That'd be awesome.
Posted by: Todd Adamson | January 19, 2007 6:42 PM
Somebody please tell me this ShelleyTheRepublican thing is meant to be satire.
Please?
If it IS satire, it's freakin' hilarious. If it's NOT satire, it's freakin' scary.
I'm serious. I wanna know. Can anyone confirm?
Posted by: Paul D | January 19, 2007 6:46 PM
"If it's just money the IRS wants, there are thousands of people out there who will help pay the money they want so I can go back out there and preach," Hovind said.
Hey, Kent. You've lived off those thousands of suckers for too long, now.
Oh. And God hates you. He told me so. We were chillin' one night, watching Cold Case Files, and...
God (digging into the chips): Hovind was just using me, too. Just like Katherine Harris. And Pat Robertson. Can you believe he told me that, now that he's made this terrorist attack claim on television, I have to cough up a crisis in 2007.
Kristine: You are such an enabler! You've got to get out of this codependency thing. *Munch* Besides, when you kick them to the curb, they never blame you, anyway, so what up with the fear thing?
God: Yeah, I know you're right, but it's hard. What I really want to do is form a rock'n'roll band. *Crunch* Okay, that's it! Hovie's going down! I've had it with being used!
See, Kent? Sucks to be you. ;-)
Posted by: Kristine | January 19, 2007 6:46 PM
I wonder if Hovind will make a bid for leniency or early parole by invoking the virtually mandatory "I found Jesus" claim.
Posted by: Kseniya | January 19, 2007 6:48 PM
As for the "thousands of people out there" willing to pay the bill, wouldn't Hovind have to report that as income, on which he would have to pay tax?
Posted by: Doc Bill | January 19, 2007 6:52 PM
Paul,
It's freakin' hilarious. It's going into 'Favourites'.
Posted by: Don | January 19, 2007 6:55 PM
Paul D, yes I believe it is satire, in the same vein as:
http://objectiveministries.org/
Posted by: intepid | January 19, 2007 7:01 PM
Yes, Doc Bill, that is exactly right. There is no "free lunch" when it comes to taxes. It's pay your own way, all the way.
Posted by: Ryogam | January 19, 2007 7:04 PM
Christmas came twice.
Posted by: Metalsmith | January 19, 2007 7:08 PM
Even to the event that people paid the back tax for Hovind, they'd miss the problem. SImply because someone claims to be a Christian (or, for that matter, sincerely tries) will not stop them from also having to act in their other roles (politician, provider, etc).
It just doesn't matter. Good stuff from Shelley though.
Posted by: Patness | January 19, 2007 7:14 PM
Really, I find it sad that Mr Hovind continues to think that he's done "good" with all the lies he's ensnared himself with.
Posted by: Stanton | January 19, 2007 7:22 PM
Shelley The Republican is satire. Absolutely positively. As evidence, the following quotes:
"If you ain't convinced that the bastard President Vilsack would hand over the country to gay, dog-eating, Mexican/Chinese felons then I want you to consider this ..."
"I like to think of the Republican party as a big old church with wide open doors, and a friendly sign outside inviting anybody who truly loves our Lord and Savour, Jesus Christ to come on in ..."
And if those weren't enough, the clincher:
"Your support for Nancy Pelosi means certain
death for these innocent ducks"
Comic gold, if you ask me.
Posted by: Markk | January 19, 2007 7:43 PM
Schadefreude tastes soooo sweet!
Posted by: Rienk | January 19, 2007 7:50 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if people sent money to Hovind, wouldn't he owe taxes on that, too?
Posted by: The Ridger | January 19, 2007 7:52 PM
Actually, if they give it as "gifts", *they* owe taxes (if it's over $10,000 from a single person). If it's "in return for a service", it's regular income and he owes the taxes. (There is a form you can fill out declaring that you believe the income isn't taxable for religious reasons, but it doesn't count for past donations. I can look it up if anyone cares.)
I work for a large green tax prep company (though I don't speak for them in the slightest) and had a client last year who at first I thought would be fine (all donations) but on further questioning he owed income *AND* SS/Medicare self-employment b/c it was given in return for performing weddings, writing about his temple's founder, etc. He decided I was wrong and didn't file - ah well, I can't make him.
Posted by: Morfydd | January 19, 2007 8:01 PM
It's interesting how Hovind is now offering to come up with the money, when previously his defense was that he was only accountable to God and didn't owe the state anything. Maybe the time he spent in prison awaiting sentencing was enough to make him realize what he had gotten himself into - far too late, of course.
Posted by: Ebonmuse | January 19, 2007 8:07 PM
Kristine - How long have you and God been dating?
Everyone else - How long before the Hovinds are up for parole?
I know some parole boards are suckers for a prisoner's claim to have found Jesus (and only Jesus; finders of Allah, Buddha, the Torah, Wicca, atheism, etc. are SOL). But that usually goes with a big show of remorse over their crimes--basically,"I did it because I wasn't a Christian then, and didn't appreciate how sinful it was." But the Hovinds are surely going to market themselves as Christian martyrs to religion-hating liberals in the IRS or whatever, so their shtick is going to be the opposite: "We did it because we're Christians."
If they show remorse in a parole hearing, they're basically admitting the IRS is right and they're full of crap. If they don't show remorse--a parole board usually requires an admission of culpability before they'll let a prisoner go. But maybe they give the Hovinds a pass because they're really, really, really Christian.
Other question: Given the way the Bush Admninistration is treating federal attorneys who actually do their jobs, how's the Hovinds' prosecuter doing? Still employed?
Posted by: Molly, NYC | January 19, 2007 8:11 PM
10 years, eh? Hmmm... His parishioners will forget him in a week. They're funny like that, aren't they?
Posted by: Dan | January 19, 2007 8:18 PM
http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/12/01/shelley-the-republican-debunked/
It looks very likely that the Shelley site is a satire.
Posted by: marty | January 19, 2007 8:26 PM
It might be best if we start treating all the Christianists as satire. That way we can all just laugh and ignore them, and convince our legislators to do so as well.
Posted by: donna | January 19, 2007 8:39 PM
Maybe God just doesn't answer Republican prayers anymore
It ain't just Republican prayers.
The Pope keeps praying for peace in the Middle East and we all know how that worked out.
Posted by: Graham | January 19, 2007 8:52 PM
"How long before the Hovinds are up for parole?"
This is federal - no parole. He can get 15% (18 months) off for "good behavior."
Posted by: Coragyps | January 19, 2007 9:00 PM
Proof that Shelley the Republican is satire (and way better than Landover Baptist), I direct your attention to the liberal plot to insert smut into the Holy Bible. Ladies and gentleman, I give you The Song of Solomon Exposed
Posted by: Todd Adamson | January 19, 2007 9:11 PM
I wonder if Hovind will make a bid for leniency or early parole by invoking the virtually mandatory "I found Jesus" claim.
Someone tried that recently in drug conviction in Kitchener, Ontario. He was sentenced to ten years.
It will interesting to see if Hovind's web site and blog are updated.
Posted by: Corey Schlueter | January 19, 2007 9:36 PM
Good news indeed. Maybe the IRS should check out the Discovery Institute next, see where all the money that they are supposed to be spending on "science" went. Prayerbooks maybe? Hmmm???
They are dirty, dammit, I'd bet Dembski a bottle of single malt scotch they are, but he never paid off on the last bet he lost, so why bother.
This is some awfully fine Caeser Rendering though, I have to say. Good riddence to bad rubbish. Ten long, long, long, long years Hovind...
Posted by: J-Dog | January 19, 2007 10:03 PM
10 years! At least my prayer was answered.
Posted by: Tom | January 19, 2007 10:11 PM
Gee, I would have thought Kent would be thrilled, after that lovely post he made about all the lost souls he was teaching to read and find God while waiting sentencing. Congrats Kent, you get to have that loving feeling for 10 years. Think of all the classes you can teach...
Posted by: seaducer | January 19, 2007 10:31 PM
Our American prisons are hardly a place for anyone to see and acknowledge the error of their ways. While I have no love for Hovind, I don't see how 10 years of what amounts to abuse rectifies anything that he has done.
Posted by: AndyS | January 19, 2007 10:32 PM
Well since Shelley thinks Hovind is such a great American, and since she sides with his transparent and responsibility-shifting defense, why don't we suggest the IRS move on to her taxes next.
Posted by: BlueIndependent | January 19, 2007 10:41 PM
As happy as I am whenever a high profile schiester gets what he deserves, I share Skeptyck's philosophy that only violent criminals should be locked up.
I wish we had a better system in place to punish non violent offenders. It is as much a slap in the face to call that "justice" as it is to call Hovind "Dr.".
Posted by: seaducer | January 19, 2007 10:44 PM
...the federal court unfairly denied Hovind's sensible and truthful defence: Kent owes no tax because everything he "owns" is really property of God.
Surely this is parody. There's no way any human with the capability to string letters into a sentence could possibly think that was a sensible defence. It's just not possible.
Posted by: SmellyTerror | January 19, 2007 10:52 PM
10 years seems an awfully long time for a non-violent crime.
Posted by: Markk | January 19, 2007 11:08 PM
Someone commenting here spoke with Hovind twice? Wasn't once enough?
Posted by: Kurzbein | January 19, 2007 11:18 PM
While I have no love for Hovind, I don't see how 10 years of what amounts to abuse rectifies anything that he has done.
Too bad he was not convicted here in Texas. It would have been interesting to see the jury work through their conflicting loves of the Good Book and the death penalty.
Posted by: Tom | January 19, 2007 11:24 PM
There is still one big problem with Dr Dino serving his time. pResident GWB still has the power to pardon for two more years [barring impeachment].
For those who don't think that prison is appropriate: What should an alternative sentence be? Ten years of hard labor in the Montana badlands digging fossils?
Posted by: natural cynic | January 19, 2007 11:28 PM
A quick review of the case show that the federal court unfairly denied Hovind's sensible and truthful defence: Kent owes no tax because everything he "owns" is really property of God. This is a fact that we would all do well to remember!
A tax question??
Uhhhh, maybe, since they're ostensibly Christians, a better thing for them to remember would be the Gospels?
Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
"Caesar's," they replied.
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
- Matthew 22:15-21 (New International Version), a passage which specifically addresses the matter of paying taxes to a secular authority
Posted by: oddjob | January 19, 2007 11:53 PM
With all respectI have to say you people say alot of bad things about Brother Hovind, but if you would examine your own lives and see what all you have done, you would see we all should have been locked up along time ago(Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God"Romans 3:10 "there is none righteous, no not one")Dont put Hovind down to lift yourselves up in your own "righteousness" thati being a HYPOCRITE. It takes the righteousness of God to get to heaven,which is through Christ alone. Isaiah 55:6 "Search Ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near" Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved" Please consider your ways and God Bless
Posted by: Blake | January 20, 2007 12:14 AM
Blake, been there, done that........
In the words of the spiritual ---
FREE AT LAST! FREE AT LAST! THANK GOD ALMIGHTY I'M FREE (of your damn trap, for so it is) AT LAST!!!!!
Posted by: oddjob | January 20, 2007 12:16 AM
Gee, let me consider my ways then.
Hmm.
Some things I'm not proud of. Nothing that compares to defrauding thousands to millions of honest but gullible Americans of their hard-earned money selling them lies about the history of the world. Nothing that's even a pixel's width at the appropriate magnification to view the whole of the suffering he's caused, and the unearned luxury he's enjoyed.
I find it ironic that Hovind, like Al Capone, wound up being nailed for tax evasion.
Posted by: Azkyroth | January 20, 2007 12:58 AM
Blake, you're right, I cheated the government out of hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes many times, and hid behind sanctimonious self-righteousness, and should be locked up, too!
Actually, no, I'm 22 and don't owe the government a dime. Keep your Original Sin to yourself, please.
Why don't you turn your Floodlight of Truth and Humility into the many dark corners of Christian Fundamentalism? Maybe you can start by illuminating the thinking of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, who both agreed that we "deserved" 9/11. Maybe you can shed some light on all that their statements imply. Or maybe you can simply tell me if there's anything more self-righteous than a Bible-thumper condemning those whose opinions or behaviors he condemns?
Posted by: Kseniya | January 20, 2007 1:12 AM
"Wasn't once enough?"! Ha!
I like the idea of ten years digging fossils. Maybe the truth would, uh, get rubbed in with the dirt.
Prayer doesn't work: Darwin's cousin, Francis Galton, did the original de-bunking in 1872 with "Statistical Enquiries into the Efficacy of Prayer. He realized that, with millions of people praying for the health of the sovereign, if prayer were effective, the rulers should have longer lives. The lijnk is to a brief description and e-book.
Posted by: Monado | January 20, 2007 1:15 AM
Pat robertson and jerry falwell are both heretics so who cares what they say.we are all under sin fornicating is just as bad as tax evasion, telling lies are just as bad as tax evasion. sin is sin. Personally I think Brother hovind is hard headed. I see how he considered his work a ministry(and that it is). The goverment doesnt care what it is they want $$$.Brother Hovind does not lie About creation/Evolution/Age of the Earth.If he is such a liar why would not 1 professor debate him at berkely.Christians dont condemn no one the bible sys you are condemned already.You were born into sin.
Posted by: Blake | January 20, 2007 1:59 AM
Blake -
Evidence, please?
Posted by: Bechamel | January 20, 2007 2:18 AM
And you, Blake, were born into idiocy.
Ah, excuse me, that was a bit reflexive but is actually quite wrong. You see, no one is born that stupid--they're made that way through years and years of systematic indoctrination. That does not absolve you, however.
More to the point at hand, professors don't debate with Hovind because they have self-respect. Hovind, on the other hand, lacks all credibility, being a fraud, liar, and now a convicted felon (that said, I've known more than a few convicted felons were who actually quite trustworthy, but not Hovind). He ignores a specific commandment from no less than Jesus himself (!) to pay taxes.
And indeed, Christians "don't condemn no one." They condemn everyone by subscribing to a doctrine that presupposes one's eternal torture unless certain circumstances are met.
One other point: the severity of all sins is the same only if the wrongness of sin is rooted in its disobeying God. In such a view, the wrongness of an act is at the caprice of God, and I suppose we're just lucky that Christians aren't called by God to become serial murderers. After all, if that were the case, then swearing would be just as bad as not being a homicidal sociopath.
The real point, Blake, is that people's goodness or badness does not rest in their religion. Most people are really good at creating justifications for what they already think is right; whether that is right or not is another question entirely. Hence, the famous saying that religion is good for good people--their goodness lies in something beyond their religious belief. For bad people, like Hovind, their religion simply gives them the veneer of authority they need to justify what they already practice--selfishness, greed, and dishonesty.
Posted by: THobbes | January 20, 2007 2:30 AM
And, to be fair, I could easily have made that point without calling you an idiot. That was unnecessary and I apologize for that.
But I stand by the rest of my post.
Posted by: THobbes | January 20, 2007 2:37 AM
Blake:
Debate isn't all it's cracked up to be, as you'd know if you'd read what virtually any skeptic has written on the subject. Rhetoric and logic are two entirely different fields, and frankly most scientists just aren't trained in rhetoric. So basically a creationist could debate rings around a scientist and still not say anything that's actually true. So really, debating a creationist is a waste of time.
And by the way, a good number of us have measured our lives and found God wanting more than us.
Posted by: Brian X | January 20, 2007 2:37 AM
Blake sez:
Jesus sez:
FIGHT!!
Posted by: Anton Mates | January 20, 2007 2:48 AM
Azkyroth: It seems that, with respect to "Brother" Hovind, you and I have yet one more reason to celebrate with a beer!
Blake: Unlike many people here, I believe in God. I also believe that Mr. Hovind is a scumbag. Is that so hard to say? Look, Blake, your posts give me the impression that you have a hard time admitting that you've been had, and that you're afraid to consider the role that your beliefs play in keeping you from thinking critically about a guy who, by his actions, is clearly a scoundrel.
Brian X: Well said. Gould, with typical verve, said much the same thing when he remarked that debate is an art form concerned with the winning of arguments, rather than the discovery of truth.
That said, though, the debate experience can be instructive. If done well, it's worth doing....SH
Posted by: Scott Hatfield | January 20, 2007 3:00 AM
Unfortunately men get raped in prison. Luckily, for Kent Hovind, he doesn't have to worry about being raped by a dinosaur.
Posted by: beepbeepitsme | January 20, 2007 4:42 AM
ShelleyTheRepublican has added "FREE KEN HOVIND!" to its banner. Priceless.
I first came across that site some months ago because of some truely inspired posts equating Linux with godlessness, terrorism, and general anti-American European fecklessness. They were hilarious, as was the follow-up a little more recently pointing out that Apple is part of the evil homosexual plot to corrupt our innocent children. I became an instant fan.
I loved the Pandas post Brando linked to above. The site doesn't always bat them out of the park, but almost every post has a gem or two, like from today's screed on the mix tape debacle: "The RIAA is the federal organisation whose job it is to protect America from pornographic rock." Indeed!
Posted by: Michael M. | January 20, 2007 4:45 AM
About this thread: It's bemusing that it's so hard to tell Shelley the Republican's subtle satire from Blake's raving (or is his illiterate nuttiness a parody?). Also that so many posters don't get the satire and apparently don't even skim the several posts telling them it is.
Posted by: dkew | January 20, 2007 9:24 AM
I wonder if Hovind will continue teaching creationism once he's in prison? (You know he always wanted a captive audience.) Kinda makes me feel sorry for the other inmates....
Posted by: Roadtripper | January 20, 2007 9:36 AM
Hey Kristine, if you and God ARE dating, keep in mind that you can have sex with him and still be a virgin.
Posted by: Dwimr | January 20, 2007 10:02 AM
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Those of you who think prison is a bad punishment for non-violent crimes ...
Let's say "Al" walks up behind 72-year-old May Ludlow at the ready-teller. Then, after she takes out $100 to get her through the week, he knocks her to the ground, kicks her walker off to the side, snatches the money from her hand and runs off with it.
Violent crime? Sure. He hit an old woman. He robbed her. Money she needed for the week's food, medicine and bus fare. He'd deserve some serious time-out for this. Years of it. In prison.
Now let's say "Bob" is the head of a multi-billion-dollar energy-trading firm. Nice guy, plays golf. Wears expensive suits. Vacations in Belize with his beautiful family, where they have a totally sweet beachfront mansion with tennis courts, their own dock, and a six-car garage.
But Bob breaks a number of federal laws, and as a result of the lies and double-dealing that he shepherds through, the corporation he heads tanks. It's all very suit-and-tie, one of those crimes where the suspect is allowed to shower, shave, have a nice leisurely breakfast, put on a nice suit, and then be driven by chauffeur down to the police station, where he "surrenders" in the presence of his attorneys. Nothing to see here, folks, move along.
But it turns out that arthritic May Ludlow's deceased husband was an employee of that firm. And he invested ALL of their retirement funds in it. The next time May goes to the ready-teller, the screen flashes "Account Overdrawn - Unable to Process Request."
In three months, May is out of food, unable to pay her heating bill, and is suffering such a painful flare-up of her arthritis - because she can't afford her medicine - that she can no longer walk to the door to retrieve the eviction notice for non-payment of rent. Long after the bruises inflicted on her by Al have healed, she is permanently crippled by the arthritis, she's eating cat food sandwiches, and facing sudden homelessness.
Multiply May by a factor of 30,000, to take into account all the employees who trusted that firm.
Does well-manicured Bob, with his beautiful family and his house in Belize, deserve time in prison?
Oh, no! Bob's not violent! He's an upstanding, GOOD man. Nobody got mugged! It was all just paperwork. His intentions were benign. And knowing those silly damned anti-free-market federal laws, it probably shouldn't even BE a crime! It was just business!
Put this obviously good FAMILY man in a dirty, uncouth PRISON? Where he would be exposed to actual CRIMINALS? And abusive, disrespectful GUARDS?? -- Whatever could those federal prosecutors be thinking?
Bearing in mind this is a TOTALLY HYPOTHETICAL illustration of my point, something that never happened, never COULD happen, I still have to feel that the crime committed by Bob is about a hundred thousand times more serious - more harm caused to more real people - than the one committed by Al.
Okay?
Okay. Now here we have "Father John" dealing with May. In this case, Father John doesn't rob May at the ready-teller. He doesn't screw her out of her entire retirement nest egg by bookkeeping shenanigans.
Instead, Father John slyly convinces someone to go down and clean out May's bank account. He promises this person eternal life, total forgiveness for all bad acts and thoughts, a complete cessation of the pain of her arthritis, and a happy reunion with her dead husband.
Who does he convince to empty May's savings? -- May herself.
But, really, is this a crime? Strangely enough, it isn't.
Father John can tell May ten thousand lies, he can fool her into giving him all her worldly possessions, slickly screw her out of the meager scraps of whatever future she has, and IT'S TOTALLY LEGAL.
(Cut to: Father John, flush with cash, whooping with joy as he finds a bargain on a totally SWEET beachfront property in Belize.)
Excuse me, but ... Wow.
So these are all hypothetical cases. So I've exaggerated here and there for dramatic effect. Can you really believe that these kinds of things don't happen? That they don't happen OFTEN?
May is a complete fiction, someone I made up for this post. But ... under a hundred different names, she's out there, right now, getting mugged at a ready-teller.
She's out there, right now, under a thousand different names, losing some of her money (all of it?) to an investment that should have been good, would have been good, but for the dishonest greed of corporate CEOs.
She's out there right this minute, under a million different names, old and a bit fuzzy in her thinking, stressed out of her mind by being mugged in March, then losing all her retirement money in July, now here in January falling under the spell of a televangelist, wanting desperately to believe that the pain in her hands and back will stop, that she will see her beloved Henry again, that her heat will miraculously come back on, that God will somehow provide her enough money that she doesn't have to eat cat food anymore, if she only sends Father John $1,000, and prays hard enough.
For my part, if Father John cheats on his taxes, the same taxes you and I have to pay ... I say yes, throw the bastard in prison - nasty, dirty, PMITA prison - for decades.
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Posted by: Hank Fox | January 20, 2007 10:29 AM
Blake wrote:
Pat robertson and jerry falwell are both heretics
Are you condemning them?
...so who cares what they say.
You have a point. Unfortunately, many people do. These are rich, influential men.
More on Hovind: A few minutes \Googling reveals that Brother Hovind is more than "hard-headed," far more than "a fraud and a liar." He is delusional. He believes that "Lucent" is a contraction of Lucifer Enterprises. He believes that silicon chips contain the Number of the Beast. He believes that 9/11 was a crime committed to mask the theft of huge stores of gold from under the WTC. The list of things he believes is far too long to cite here. I had no idea he was so far gone. Maybe prison is the wrong approach altogether for this guy.
Posted by: Kseniya | January 20, 2007 10:41 AM
Not highjacking the thread for the prison reform/prison abolition debate, but a few words of thanks to Hank Fox.
No, I do not think any of those hypotheticals you presented should go to what we have NOW for prisons, (since we are speaking hypothetically).
Do I have the answers? No, but even reframing the questions is important. Hank is doing that by pointing out how dangerous "Fr. John" is, and how very much worse the crimes of "Bob" are than the crime of "Al". I agree wholeheartedly. Bob and Fr. John will do repeated, long term damage to people. Where we may differ is that I think none of those guys, Al nor Bob nor Fr. John, should be in cages.
A better, different system altogether is what I hope for. Do I know what that will look like? No, but nor did many of the slavery abolitionists a couple hundred years ago know what a nation without legal slavery would look like nor how it would get there.
Prison abolition does not mean open all the cages and hope for the best. It means thinking outside the box. Literally. Alternatives to incarceration, restorative justice.
Only a very few even violent criminals need be so completely separated from society for so long; in most cases, we should be seeking a way for for folks to give back while protecting the rest of us from them in other ways than shipping them out of state to blocks of cages where they can be mutually regressed and brutalized. Don't forget that most of these folks are released at some point.
We have a lot of technology available and more possible, but we have a failure of will and of imagination at the level of the purse strings.
Posted by: Skeptyk | January 20, 2007 11:49 AM
The reason i say those guys are heretics is the same reason darwin was.They teach contrary to the Word of God.The Bible is perfect no matter what one thinks.
Posted by: Blake | January 20, 2007 1:13 PM
Uh, no, it isn't. It's a particular collection of myths.
Did you know there's no archaeological evidence for any of it prior to the narratives of Ezra and Nehemiah (the very last narrative of all)? Most telling is that in one of the two (forget which) there is found after their "return" in amongst the ruins - surprise! - a copy of the Law of Moses (imagine that!).
Frankly it all sounds like Ezra was probably nothing more than the Joseph Smith of his day.
You're duped by a fake story, just like the Mormons have been.
Even John Calvin called the creaion story of Genesis "baby talk".........
Posted by: oddjob | January 20, 2007 1:21 PM
"The Bible is perfect no matter what one thinks." Blake
This seems to suggest that Blake is attempting parody. Either that, or he has never read the Babble.
Posted by: remy | January 20, 2007 1:36 PM
I see that according to http://www.drdino.com/itinerary.php "Dr." Kent Hovind has 4 speaking engagements planned in April, May and September this year.
I do hope the federal prison authorities are aware...
Posted by: Bunjo | January 20, 2007 3:47 PM
Which one?
The one where humans get created last, on the 6th day?
Or the one where Adam (mentioned by name) gets created first, then (during a stretch of time the duration of which is not mentioned) the rest of the world, and then Eve (mentioned by name) from his rib?
Or both?
Obviously, Blake is attempting parody, and quite good at it.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2007 5:06 PM
Wow, another Blake on the Internet!
Posted by: Blake Stacey | January 20, 2007 5:10 PM
To Bunjo: For