…and this is a 
So these media people are making a movie about some tombs discovered in Jerusalem—bearing the names Jesua, son of Joseph, Mary, Mary, Mathew, Jofa and Judah, son of Jesua—and getting all this hype about discovering the final resting place of the family of the spiritual founder of Christianity. I'm more than a little dubious; they prattle unconvincingly about their evidence.
But film-makers Cameron and Jacobovici claim to have amassed evidence through DNA tests, archeological evidence and Biblical studies, that the 10 coffins belong to Jesus and his family.
Wait, DNA tests? What did they do, knock on god's door with a court order in hand and demand a blood sample? Since the only thing unique about that Jesus dude was his paternity claim, I don't see how else they could verify the identity of whatever remains they have. And from the description, it doesn't sound like they have any scraps of human tissue anyway—they've got some stone caskets, that's it.
I say it's BS all the way down.
Comments
Posted by: Ophelia Benson | February 25, 2007 12:20 PM
DNA tests - hmm - one does indeed wonder what they're comparing them to. One wonders what they think they're comparing them to. One wonders if they just threw the two words in there because they sound as if they verify something. Huh huh, DNA tests, huh huh.
Posted by: Steve Sutton | February 25, 2007 12:22 PM
My guess would be a hoax. It wouldn't be the first time.
Posted by: llewelly | February 25, 2007 12:24 PM
PZ, didn't you read The Da Vinci Code ? The Descendants of Jesus live on to the present, battling Sinister Conspiracies at all times.
All that was necessary was to compare the DNA of Jesus' descendants with that of the remains.
Posted by: spencer | February 25, 2007 12:36 PM
Oh, I think they're telling the truth. It's just that the meaning of what they're saying depends on a very careful parsing of that sentence PZ highlighted:
"But film-makers Cameron and Jacobovici claim to have amassed evidence through DNA tests, archeological evidence and Biblical studies, that the 10 coffins belong to Jesus and his family."
Note that what this does *not* say is that DNA tests were used to establish the identity of Jesus. What it *might* be saying instead is that DNA tests were used for the limited purpose of establishing the fact that the people in these coffins were related to each other; they may be relying on their interpretations of various Biblical studies and archaeological evidence to "establish" that one of those people is Jesus.
It all hinges on the inclusion of the "and his family" clause at the end of that sentence. Without that, then there could be no other interpretation that DNA tests have established that a corpse found somewhere in the ME is actually that of Jesus Christ.
Posted by: Davis | February 25, 2007 12:39 PM
These things almost always turn out to be hoaxes. Literally unbelievable. Remember Jesus's brother's ossuary? Hoax. I know someone who is fascinated by the historical Jesus. He said quite confidantly that Jesus married Mary Magdeline, moved to France, and had four children, two boys and two girls. When I asked wasn't he crucified, he said he survived it. That's about as believable as the resurrection and ascension.
Posted by: PZ Myers | February 25, 2007 12:55 PM
The problem with "DNA tests" is that they don't seem to have any biological samples. They've got some stone coffins. Did they do DNA tests on those?
Posted by: craig | February 25, 2007 12:56 PM
And then they attempt to resurrect Jesus, using frog DNA to fill in the gaps...
Posted by: GMWnKCMO | February 25, 2007 12:58 PM
if I remember right from my sunday school traning years ago, the woo-woo folks (term appropriated from James Randi, et al) would claim that any test like these would show that Joseph, Mary's husband, contributed the DNA, even if someone 'else' was the actual father.
And, if someone concretely refuted that claim (how I cant guess) then suddenly some other claim, psuedo-scientific or scientific sounding would pop up. FOr all the poo-poo-ing of science these guys do, they sure do want it's imprimatur when they can snatch it, even for a second.
If you haven't figured it out by now, the head office of this vast wingnut conspiracy is also called Goalpost Moving. I can hear them answering the phone now, "GOod Morning, GOalpost Moving, we move the goalpost in any game you are currently losing! How may I help you?"
ugh.
Posted by: llewelly | February 25, 2007 12:59 PM
And then the frog DNA enables Jesus to change sex and reproduce. Soon the Island is overrun by the progeny of Jesus.Posted by: pb | February 25, 2007 1:05 PM
Why does Jesus need any sort of coffin, ossuary, or tomb?
I was under the impression that he got up and left all that behind.
Not that I think they can, but it would be verrrrry interesting if these guys ended up proving that the historical Jesus is currently a pile of bone fragments in a stone box.
Oh well, Easter was never one of my favorite holidays anyway.
Posted by: Dustin | February 25, 2007 1:06 PM
The Jesus DNA tests probably went something like this:
Today on the Maury Show: "The Son of God Denies My Baby!"
Mary of Magdalene: This is Jesus' baby. Look at his eyes, Maury, look at his eyes!
Jesus: Maury, I'm 10000000% positive that I am not the father. I only slept with her once. And she was always getting nasty with all of my apostles!
Maury: Let's see what the test says. (Opens envelope) Jesus, you are the father.
Posted by: SLC | February 25, 2007 1:06 PM
Re Joshua of Nazareth
Actually, Joshua of Nazareth married Mary Magdalene and moved to Damascus where he went into the furniture manufacturing business. According to Islam, the fellow who went to the cross was Judas Iscariot who was determined by Pontius Pilate to be a fink and a liar.
Posted by: Kristine | February 25, 2007 1:09 PM
What did they do, knock on god's door with a court order in hand and demand a blood sample?
Wassamatter with you, PZ? That's exactly what they did! ;-)
And they traced his mitochondria from "Mitochondrial Eve." It's so simple, apostates!
You know, this crapola reminds me of all the "Aryan science research" by other "doctors and scientists" during...must not violate Godwin's Law, must not violate Godwin's Law...
Posted by: spencer | February 25, 2007 1:09 PM
"The problem with "DNA tests" is that they don't seem to have any biological samples. They've got some stone coffins. Did they do DNA tests on those?"
Ah, I overlooked that in the original article. For some reason, I had it in mind that they did in fact have these; but you're right, a second look at the article shows no mention of biological samples either way.
Posted by: DrBadger | February 25, 2007 1:11 PM
Come on, don't you guys know, Jesus only has one all-seeing all-knowing Y-chromosome and no X-chromosome.
Posted by: Russell | February 25, 2007 1:13 PM
Yeah, but PZ, you think Creationism is BS all the way down. And that psychics are BS all the way down. And that healing prayer is BS all the way down.
OK, so you have a point. ;-)
Posted by: Eric | February 25, 2007 1:15 PM
Easter is coming up in, what, 5 weeks? James Cameron can now be pronounced the Annual Easter Attention Whore. Every damn year we're subjected to this idiocy.
Posted by: Mena | February 25, 2007 1:18 PM
Davis:
When I asked wasn't he crucified, he said he survived it. That's about as believable as the resurrection and ascension.
But didn't they actually crucify Brian?
BTW, if they did find DNA in any of the coffins maybe if one of the bodies was haploid, like a male bee, they can use that to argue evidence about Jesus. Otherwise, nah! ;^)
What I'm finding interesting is that Jacobovici did an episode of "The Naked Archaeologist" about hoaxes and covered the ossuary.
Posted by: dkew | February 25, 2007 1:19 PM
Of course its BS, and they'll make millions. The comments by the god-botherers at that linked file are entertaining, if you have a strong stomach for deluded droolers.
Posted by: Dustin | February 25, 2007 1:19 PM
I seem to remember when there was a gap between Holidays, where Valentine's Day crap didn't go on sale on Dec. 26, where Easter crap didn't go on sale on Feb. 16, where Thanksgiving crap didn't show up on July 5th, and where Christmas crap didn't show up on the Friday following my exposure to dried turkey and obnoxious relatives.
I'm declaring it Bah Humbug day, 365 days a year.
Posted by: Kristine | February 25, 2007 1:20 PM
"We got the casket. We've got the bones."
Now take that, unbelievers! Ha ha!
Good point about Easter, Eric--yep, we're about due for this crap. I guess "finding Noah's Ark" just isn't thrilling the multitude anymore. (How many arks are there, for pity's sake?)
Posted by: writerdd | February 25, 2007 1:21 PM
Well, I guess if they have mummies or something, and compare the DNA of Jesua and Mary and they are 100% identical, that could be an argument for the virgin birth. However, not sure why they'd want to support that doctrine while at the same time trying to discredit the doctrine of the resurrection.
At any rate, I think it's amusing and will definitely watch the film, which is what they care about, eh?
Posted by: GP | February 25, 2007 1:28 PM
There's a much more detailed story about this in today's Toronto Star:
http://www.thestar.com/article/185534
Simcha Jacobovici has a show here on Vision TV called The Naked Archaeologist, where he tries to show the historic truth of the Bible, though not necessarily (but often) the literal truth, if that makes sense.
Posted by: Dustin | February 25, 2007 1:34 PM
Makes perfect sense. I've had a lot of conversations with apologists that went like this:
"The Bible talks about Rome. We know there really was such a thing as Rome, so the Bible is right and there must have been a Jesus. The Bible talks about Egypt, we know there was an Egypt, so there must have been a Moses. The Bible talks about Babylon, we know there was a Babylon, so..."
And on and on it goes. That's why Biblical Archeology is so contemptible... even 2,000 year old trash heaps are elevated to the status of historical proof of the Bible with logic that goes to the tune of "This trash heap is 2000 years old, proving there were people in Judea 2000 years ago, proving that the Bible is right".
Posted by: BlueIndependent | February 25, 2007 1:37 PM
I heard about this the other day. This'll just give people like Bill Donohue a freakin excuse to get on TV and proliferate the "we're oppressed" bullcrap. Thanks Cameron, thanks a lot. Now a bunch of wingnuts have an excuse to splatter themselves all over primetime news for at least a good week.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | February 25, 2007 1:38 PM
Wait a second. Didn't you read Preacher? The people who maintain the bloodline of Christ are the sinister conspiracy. Of course, since they've kept the Messianic blood confined for a single lineage. . . .
"After two thousand years of keeping them breeding inside the one bloodline, we're lucky the bastard doesn't have antennae."
"But this is the blood of the Lamb we're talking about! The most sacred lineage the world has ever known! I mean, what about the divine essence?"
"The what?"
"The essence of Heaven itself! Wouldn't it keep the bloodline from becoming tainted?"
"Son of God or Son of Man, Marseille: you can't fuck your sister and expect much good to come of it."
Posted by: Hank Fox | February 25, 2007 1:39 PM
...
...
Waitasec, if they've found the remains of Jesus, doesn't this really knock the entire foundation out from under the Christian faith? If Jesus didn't get beamed up to Heaven, that whole "He is Risen" thing is a lie.
Not having seen it (and not going to), I still don't see this as entirely a bad thing.
Don't we now get to enter all future boozy arguments with "Jesus died and stayed dead! If he existed at all, he was just some guy! They PROVED it! They got PROOF! ... Bartender! Another round for my idiot Christian friends! Here's to the rotten corpse of Jesus, you mystical jugheads!"
...
...
Posted by: Dustin | February 25, 2007 1:43 PM
I don't blame Cameron for that, at least, since the splattering can also be triggered by: mosquito bites, misdirected e-mails, broccoli, sunspots, solar eclipses, rain, blizzards, immigration, certain kinds of deep fried fish, and traffic jams.
Posted by: Mon Cul | February 25, 2007 1:44 PM
What???
Jesus not resurrected? Well, that's it. See if I ever believe in anything again.
Posted by: Roy | February 25, 2007 1:45 PM
And for his next project Cameron will find the burial places of Pecos Bill, Paul Bunyan, and Babe the Blue Ox.
If he's up to the challenge, he can seek the hangar of Ezekiel's wheel -- which was mentioned in the Bible so of course it had to be real.
Posted by: Dustin | February 25, 2007 1:45 PM
Hank: Jesus wasn't beamed. The Bible is very clear that he achieved escape velocity and blasted into space where he was reunited with God, DirecTV #5 and Sirius #2.
Posted by: Dustin | February 25, 2007 1:47 PM
If you're interested, you can try to spot Jesus on this handy little applet from NASA:
http://science.nasa.gov/Realtime/jtrack/3d/JTrack3D.html
Posted by: 386sx | February 25, 2007 1:56 PM
Waitasec, if they've found the remains of Jesus, doesn't this really knock the entire foundation out from under the Christian faith? If Jesus didn't get beamed up to Heaven, that whole "He is Risen" thing is a lie.
What, you think people actually believe that crap? Come on, the whole story is stupid and pointless. Get real, dude! (What planet are you from?)
Posted by: Dustin | February 25, 2007 1:58 PM
Let me be the first to welcome you to Earth. I doubt you'll enjoy your stay here.
Posted by: 386sx | February 25, 2007 2:02 PM
Let me be the first to welcome you to Earth. I doubt you'll enjoy your stay here.
I will enjoy my stay, if you don't mind. But thanks for reminding me. :-)
Posted by: atomic dog | February 25, 2007 2:02 PM
Well, a God who plants fossils all over the damn place could certainly have made up a nice set of fake bones for for his son, just to test the believers.
Reality's pretty much on vacation at this point.
Posted by: CalGeorge (a.k.a. George) | February 25, 2007 2:04 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but:
If they have Jesus' DNA, does that mean we will be able to clone him some day?
Could everyone have their own personal Dolly Jesus?
Posted by: Ray S | February 25, 2007 2:06 PM
My favorite comment on the Time blog was noting that to get DNA material to compare and prove the bodies were related to Jesus would only require a trip to the local Catholic Church on communion day for a bit of wafer and a drop or two of wine.
Other than that, not much substance. The true believers really have their panties in a knot over this one.
Posted by: Dustin | February 25, 2007 2:06 PM
I'm holding out for Blacklight Glow Jesus.
Posted by: llewelly | February 25, 2007 2:11 PM
Thank you, Kristine, and others, for that wonderful link to the Toronto Star article, which contains:
Sounds to me like the documentary is high up in the old cherry tree, searching for anything which might be construed to appear to support its claims.
Posted by: Dustin | February 25, 2007 2:17 PM
You know, that's exactly the same thing these weirdos say about the Shroud of Turin when they get taken to task for suggesting that it was actually made by DaVinci on the grounds that the shroud was on the scene a hundred years before Da Vinci.
Man, it was bad enough when I just had Christians to deal with. Now I have Cameron, Dan Brown, and their frothy mouthed followers, too.
Posted by: Maureen Lycaon | February 25, 2007 2:21 PM
"Easter has been canceled -- they found the body!"
Seriously, though, the most depressing thing about the entry is the endless content-free, totally unrelated comments by believers calling on everyone to convert. Did they even read the frickin' article? Or is it like some sort of program:
1. Read web page. 2. Is word "Jesus" present? 3. If so, post religious ad. 4. If not, go to next web page and return to 1.
Posted by: Dustin | February 25, 2007 2:25 PM
To be fair, the article was content free and unrelated to reality, so I'd expect to find a congregation of proselytizing weirdos there, in the same way we'd find loads of virii waiting in a hijacked cell that's about to burst.
Posted by: rainie | February 25, 2007 2:26 PM
Just a comment on how ingrained this stuff can be, even when we think that we've distanced ourselves from our upbringing. My daughter was talking about a history class that she was taking and as a preface to the point she wanted to make she said that Jesus's given name was Joshua ben Joseph... I interrupted here and said wait, he had another name? I thought that an angel of God had come down and told Mary that his name shall be Jesus. At this point we both were in fits of laughter and now this conversation is the reference point for my childhood christian indoctrination. The other amazingly amusing thing from that conversation is that Jesus's name was really Josh?
Posted by: Bryn | February 25, 2007 2:26 PM
Craig said: "And then they attempt to resurrect Jesus, using frog DNA to fill in the gaps..."
The true God of the gaps?
Posted by: Jim Harrison | February 25, 2007 2:27 PM
The manufacture of relics has been practiced for thousands of years. It's antiquity alone ought to earn it a little respect. Am I the only guy around here who stands up for tradition?
Posted by: Kyra | February 25, 2007 2:58 PM
Well, far as I'm concerned, at best (or worst) they could "prove" Jesus existed. Proving that he was a God or Messiah or anything other than a dissident rabbi whom various contemporaries saw fit to execute and deify, is another story.
I have to admit, though, I'm quite fond of "Judah, son of Jesua." (Translation: Jesus had a son, apparently. Though as far as Christian mythology goes, I prefer the idea of him having a daughter and she and her mother (that would perhaps be the second Mary, but I could easily be forgetting whether or not there was perhaps a third (whether Mary Magdalene and Mary sister of Martha and Lazarus were the same person or not) going to France and hanging with the Albigensians for awhile, and sending allegedly-divine blood percolating through the population.)
Anyway, nostalgic-apostate moment over, I can't wait to see the Roman Catholic Church's reaction to "Judah, son of Jesua," should this catch on to any significant extent.
Posted by: kurage | February 25, 2007 3:21 PM
[i]And then the frog DNA enables Jesus to change sex and reproduce. Soon the Island is overrun by the progeny of Jesus.[/i]
Oooh, The Gospel According to Michael Crichton! My favorite part is the parable where Jesus compares disbelievers to poorly endowed toddler rapists.
Posted by: Badger3k | February 25, 2007 3:37 PM
I guess Cameron crossed the shark - although that could have been at his abominable "the Exodus Decoded" with the same hack Jacobovici. This is what happens when morons have money. I wonder if Chris at Haggion has heard of this? He did a real good dissection of the Exodus Tripe, showing many of the mistakes and lies in it. (http://www.heardworld.com/higgaion/?p=60).
BTW - has anybody seen Conservapedia's entry on the Pacific Northwest Arboreal Octopus (http://www.conservapedia.com/Pacific_Northwest_Arboreal_Octopus)? Surely this has to be a joke? Going back to their source (http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus/) I suspect either foul play, or the conservative bent to believe anything someone tells them (as long as their politics are "correct"). I do find it odd that a conservative rag would encourage doing something about an "endangered species" though....
Posted by: RedMolly | February 25, 2007 3:38 PM
That show was such a disappointment. They took off the only other classical archaeology show on History International (the unfortunately-titled "Secrets of Archaeology," which, despite its Mediterranean-basin bias, was actually informative) and replaced it with more scripture-chasing prattle.
Do we really need another in an endless succession of "The Real Jesus/ Moses/ Apocalypse" shows cluttering up the airwaves? Am I the only person out there who thinks that ancient Near Eastern archaeology is interesting enough on its own without having to interpret it through a biblical prism?
Posted by: Chris | February 25, 2007 3:41 PM
No no no, it's turtles all the way down.
Posted by: Tukla in Iowa | February 25, 2007 3:48 PM
Maybe they also found a mosquito trapped in amber in the coffins, and they're already cloning Jesus Haploid Christ II.
Posted by: Ron | February 25, 2007 3:49 PM
If Jesus is a clone of Mary then DNA analysis would confirm the doctrine of virgin birth!
Posted by: JohnnieCanuck | February 25, 2007 4:10 PM
Um, if Jesus were a clone of Mary and their genes were 100% identical (combining at least two previous posts), then wouldn't He have been a She?
You'd think one of the centurions or someone would have noticed the deception.
Posted by: Crosius | February 25, 2007 4:14 PM
In the middle ages, if you'd gathered all the splinters of the "One True Cross" together, you'd have had enough wood to build the three arks and two temples. Reassembly of saints' skeletons from the divided relics would have revealed 47 fingers and twice as many toes. John the Baptist's head was probably on display at 6 different shrines.
Relics and reliquaries were a major cottage industry during the occupation of Jerusalem. It's not difficult to believe some enterprising local dressed up a local mausoleum with just enough references to the new testament's "royal" family to fleece the pilgrims. Based on what I've seen at religious shrines, there were probably walking tours (for a reasonable fee).
Posted by: Wes | February 25, 2007 4:20 PM
Wow. If you want some primo examples of how religion completely warps people's minds, just read the comments Christians were making on that article. Someone actually used the "Well, you can't prove Jesus wasn't resurrected" argument. Another gives a lengthy description of her hallucinations, convinced their messages from God. Another cut-and-pastes a bunch of quotes from right wing ideologues.
People commonly accuse nonbelievers of "arrogance" for claiming to be more rational than (at least the majority of) believers. Well, if calling those people irrational makes me arrogant, then "arrogant" must be a synonym for honest. 'Cause "irrational" is the only possible way you could describe the things they're saying.
Posted by: Wes | February 25, 2007 4:21 PM
^^That should say "they're", not "their". Stupid homonyms! >:(
Posted by: Ron | February 25, 2007 4:22 PM
In Innocents Abroad, Mark Twain describes a museum in Italy where he saw in a display-case three skulls of Christopher Columbus, one as child, one as a young man and a third as a grandpa.
Posted by: Dustin | February 25, 2007 4:44 PM
From now on, that is going to be my method of choice for taking the Lord's name in vain.
*stubs toe*
JESUS HAPLOID CHRIST!
Posted by: Krystalline Apostate | February 25, 2007 4:59 PM
Davis:
When I asked wasn't he crucified, he said he survived it.
Josephus actually relates in his works (I forget which 1), that he witnessed 3 blokes who were crucified, 1 of whom survived it.
I'd not give good odds that that person's quality of life was good, though.
Posted by: Kristine | February 25, 2007 5:03 PM
Sounds to me like the documentary is high up in the old cherry tree, searching for anything which might be construed to appear to support its claims.
I cannot tell a lie, I tried to cut down that cherry tree.
Posted by: coz | February 25, 2007 5:05 PM
Kathy Reichs mystery book 'Cross Bones' is about those ossuaries and the death and mayhem they cause as potentially being Jeezbus and family.
I was thinking that it would be cool if it was Jeezbus and couldn't work out what the whole fuss was about, until she patiently explained that if it was him then the whole returning from the dead, son of god thang would be blown out of the water....The penny dropped. See what happens when you have no religious upbringing, subtle plot points are lost.
Posted by: AV | February 25, 2007 5:17 PM
I guess Cameron crossed the shark - although that could have been at his abominable "the Exodus Decoded" with the same hack Jacobovici. This is what happens when morons have money.
"Game over, man! Game over!!"
Posted by: Steve_C | February 25, 2007 5:17 PM
This is right up there with the hunt for the Ark on Mount Ararat.
http://www.noahsarksearch.com/ararat.htm
Posted by: Steve_C | February 25, 2007 5:27 PM
http://www.noahsarksearch.com/araratcam.htm
too funny...Ark searchers warning people there's, dare I say it... Astrology promoted there.
The irony is delicious.
Posted by: Evan | February 25, 2007 6:20 PM
Nope, the gap of the gods.
Posted by: Last_Hussar | February 25, 2007 6:32 PM
As I explained at http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/comments/james_cameron_claims_hes_found_jesus_literally/#comments they found the genome for 'Walks on Water' on one of the chromosones.
Posted by: Terry | February 25, 2007 7:19 PM
I always wondered what the "H" in the phrase "Jesus H. Christ!" stood for. Now I know -- Haploid!
Posted by: K. Engels | February 25, 2007 8:13 PM
The DNA tests is easy. All you have to do to prove that this the THE Jesus is figure out if this 1st century Semitic guy happens to look like a blond haired, blue eyed, European. If the DNA matches those traits, you have your guy.
Posted by: J-Dog | February 25, 2007 8:14 PM
Always look on the bright side of life!
Brian, circa AD 33
Posted by: Chris | February 25, 2007 8:59 PM
Not only that, but he apparently named his son after the disciple whose name is now usually spelled "Judas"...
If there was a historical Jesus, then he probably did have a tomb at some point, and this might be it. Then again it might not, there's certainly no shortage of fake relics. (Con men know their audiences, and a church is one of the best places to look for gullible people.)
However, if there are remains in the tombs, and DNA confirms that they are actually related to each other in the expected degrees (assuming that's even possible with 2000-year-old remains, which seems wildly unlikely), that would make it seem more confirmed; a faker could have just slipped in any old corpses, confident that nobody would be able to tell the difference. There'd be no reason to use corpses that were related to each other unless it was actually the family whose names are on the nameplates.
You'd think a religious faker would have known to leave the Jesus tomb empty, though. Unless, of course, the resurrection story hadn't been introduced yet. Dying for others (or just for the conviction of your beliefs) is so much more convincing when it's for real; I think the rewrite to add a happy ending really cheapened the symbolic meaning of the demigod-as-sacrifice. (Considered as literature the Bible isn't very good literature; it reads like it was written by one committee and edited by another. Which it was, of course, but that's no way to write a good book.)
Posted by: accidental critic | February 25, 2007 9:56 PM
Sounds like it rips off this:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0201485/
Heh. At least they have the good graces to rip off a film that stank and nobody remembers.
Posted by: Torbjörn Larsson | February 25, 2007 10:01 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if in the religious mindset the lack of DNA is the DNA evidence. After all, the absence of a body is part of their corporeal evidence.
That is my favorite religious text. If not for the takedown of religious myths and their implications, so for the realistic depictions of violence. Oh yes, also for the preacher making the god run scared.
(The retarded Child to Marseille, as they face death) - Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
(Marseille) - Great.
Posted by: JamesR | February 25, 2007 10:14 PM
Ok then now let me see if I get this right? They found his bones? But that means he didn't ascend into heaven. And ifn he ascended into heaven there would be no bones. I get it Someone LIED.Figures. Knowing the cast of characters as we do.
Posted by: JimV | February 25, 2007 10:18 PM
Come on, people - Jesua, son of Joseph, Mary, Mary, Mathew, Jofa and Judah, son of Jesua, all found in the same crypt and with the right blood relationships established by DNA - sounds like complex, specified information, and we know that never happens by random coincidence.
Posted by: beepbeepitsme | February 25, 2007 10:21 PM
They know it is jebus because it has G_D inscribed on the coffin.
Where can I order my piece of jebus toenail?
Posted by: abeja | February 25, 2007 10:44 PM
They know it is jebus because it has G_D inscribed on the coffin. Where can I order my piece of jebus toenail?
Personally, I'm waiting for them to use pieces from the coffin to make a commemorative coin.
Posted by: dzd | February 25, 2007 11:42 PM
I'd like to believe that this is actually a parody of all those horrible "documentaries" about the "science" of the bible that infest the airwaves here in the USA, but that Jacobovici guy is apparently responsible for most of them.
Posted by: sparc | February 25, 2007 11:50 PM
There was a quite amusing thread on the 1n Jesus in November 2006 at UD where DaveScot displayed his ignorance on meiosis
http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/there-are-more-things-in-heaven-and-earth-paul-than-are-dreamt-of-in-your-philosophy/
Posted by: dorid | February 26, 2007 12:00 AM
awww, see, they got the wrong guy. The inscription on the tomb reads "Jesus son of Joseph" not "Jesus son of God"
simple mistaken identity.
Posted by: Krystalline Apostate | February 26, 2007 1:30 AM
CalGeorge:
If they have Jesus' DNA, does that mean we will be able to clone him some day?
They did a movie about that too: it was called Revelation. It was only a little better than Demi Moore's Seventh Sign, which isn't saying much at all.
I'm talking about this one, not 1 of those 'left behind' B-movies.
I also did a post where this 1 xtian fella freaked out about JC being cloned (turned out it was a PR stunt).
Posted by: Paul | February 26, 2007 4:47 AM
The delicious irony of this is that the god-botherers have to stoop to logic and science to refute the silliness of Cameron's claim.
Expect to see some ice-cream headaches among christian types in the next while.
Posted by: Carlie | February 26, 2007 6:06 AM
No, no, Jesus did already come back, and he was Chris Eccleston
Posted by: Bruce | February 26, 2007 10:00 AM
Assuming the entire family didn't fly up to heaven using a wholesale group rate, what happened to the bodies? 2000 years IS a long time but mummification seems common in the desert. Would it be bacteriological activity that destroyed the bodies? thanks
Posted by: Warren | February 26, 2007 10:27 AM
But they can't use DNA to confirm anything, because DNA's very traceability is rooted in the fact of evolution, which is a contravention of the mythology of creation, which subverts god, which obviates Jesus's divinity.
Posted by: Mena | February 26, 2007 11:48 AM
Apparently people do think that the documentary is crap but if you look about half way down this article, a guy named Stephen Pfann is playing the persecuted Christian. Is there a script of stupid talking points that make absolutely no sense and make the person using them look like a whining idiot like they seem to have at Fox?
Posted by: Scooter | February 26, 2007 11:58 AM
I hate to disillusion you guys, but Jeebus died as a garlic farmer in Japan.
"Because of books and films on the subject, most people by now are aware of the story of a possible link between Mary Magdalene and possibly Jesus with the area of Rennes-le-Chateau, France.
But there is another story, told by the people of Shingo, Japan, that strangely links Jesus with that community. The people there not only believe this story, they have a complete legend and even grave markers to indicate that not only Jesus, but his family lived there 2000 years ago."
Story here
Posted by: Dono | February 26, 2007 1:07 PM
My favorite part of the Time.com comments section was when the guy threatened to cancel his subscription to the Discovery Channel and said they were lucky he didn't "strap explosives around his waste."
I don't want to be anywhere close when THAT bomb goes off.
Posted by: El Christador | February 26, 2007 3:49 PM
If you left bones in stone boxes for 2000 years, would you expect traces of bone to remain on the box?
Note that the boxes had bones in them when found.
Posted by: El Christador | February 26, 2007 3:50 PM
Oh, right, not to mention the fact that presumably the bodies had the soft tissue too when originally placed in the boxes.
Posted by: chaos_engineer | February 26, 2007 3:54 PM
I think it would be useful to take the DNA from the Jesus coffin and compare it to DNA from the Shroud of Turin. Since the Shroud of Turin is known to be a hoax, a DNA match would prove that the coffin is also a hoax.
Posted by: El Christador | February 26, 2007 4:27 PM
Actually, further reading suggests that they are caskets specifically for bones, so presumably the soft tissue was mostly removed prior to placing them in the caskets.
Anyhow, sentences such as
imply either that they have found, or that they hope there might be, traces of biological material on the boxes which can provide DNA.
(I don't know if that sentence is in any of the articles people have posted links to yet, but it's in one of the ones I read.)
Posted by: El Christador | February 26, 2007 4:48 PM
From
we might provisionally infer that they were in fact able to obtain DNA from the inside of the boxes.
Posted by: El Christador | February 26, 2007 5:37 PM
I don't know but, Wikipedia tells us "During the time of the Second Temple, Jewish burial customs included primary burials in burial caves, followed by secondary burials in ossuaries placed in smaller niches of the burial caves." which to me makes it sound like the body was placed in the ossuary after having been reduced to a skeleton. As to the mechanisms responsible, or how complete it was, or as to whether mummification could or did occur, or whether the things being placed in the ossuaries were mostly bones or bones plus dried tissue...I think someone with some actual expertise is called for.Posted by: Tom | February 27, 2007 12:48 AM
I do believe that the bodies in the tomb are that of a family from the 1st CE by the name of Jesu, son of Joseph, Mary, Mary, Matthew, Jofu, and Judah, son of Jesu. It might be proved that there wasn't enough tissue for a DNA test to be done, but I doubt Cameron would have staked his reputation on making this bold claim without having at least the evidence to prove the bodies were all related family members.
The real question is whether the Jesu in the tomb is the historical Jesus. It's possible. But Jesu was a common name and so was Mary. The fact that they were found together is a case for it being the body of the historical Jesus. But who is Matthew and Jofu? Neither of them are mentioned as family members of the historical Jesus. You wouldn't bury strangers with your family. So, that's a point against it being the historical Jesus. That doesn't get into Judah, son of Jesu. That Jesus had a son is not a new revelation. If you want to consider the Bible inaccurate, which it is on several points, you also have to consider the rumor created hundreds of years after the death of Jesus as inaccurate, or at least highly suspicious. The existance of Judah, son of Jesu in the tomb could just as easily be a proof that this isn't the real historical Jesus, because there is no meaningful discussion of Jesus having a child until the Merovigian kings hundreds of years later.
Lastly, the oldest Gospel, Mark, written about 60 AD, only 30 years after the death of Jesus states he was not in the tomb when Mary Magdelene visited it and had risen. 30 years after the death of Jesus is not a long time for ancient documents as the culture was largely one of oral storytelling tradition. So, Mark can be relied upon as the original claims of Christianity. Now, if there were some conspiracy to lie about the resurrection of Jesus, why would they leave his body in a tomb with his mother, a supposed Mary Magdalene, and other family members? It would only make sense to destroy Jesus' body and conceal it, if the original Christians were lying about Jesus' resurrection.
The claims to the resurrection had been told orally for over 30 years and written about in Mark already by the time the bodies would have been put in the tomb. So, this leaves the big question -- is the body of Jesu the body of the historical Jesus? Definitely not if there were an early Christian conspiracy. They would have hidden the body. So, no effort to conceal Jesus' body? That's difficult to believe according to -- simple logic. If you commit a murder, do you leave the gun just lying around? No, you throw it away -- far away.
Now, if the historical Jesus and his family never made the claim to be raised from the dead and resurrected, then perhaps they wouldn't have concealed his body and Jesu could be the historical Jesus. I just find that argument hard to believe as his disciples were running around preaching about his resurrection so his family must have known of the claims by the time all the bodies were placed in the tombs. Maybe Mary, Mary Magdalene, and Jesus all argued against the claims of the apostles -- defiantly leaving Jesus' body in a marked tomb. I doubt that.
I really don't think this is the body of the historical Jesus. It definitely sounds like the bodies of the family of Jesu, but that isn't the same thing as the historical Jesus.
Posted by: shanks | February 27, 2007 5:17 AM
more likely this is going to be used to legitimise claims to the Occupied Territories. Think carefully about it and you'll see the reason why. The bible thumpers will join the Israelis into complete occupation of the usurped lands.
The movie angle is claptrap, just a front for the larger ink blot strategy of taking palestinians land