…and this is a 
Creationism means never having to admit you know nothing, but you still get to pretend to be an expert
Category: Creationism
Posted on: April 24, 2007 10:45 AM, by PZ Myers
The core value of creation science is dishonesty. I was reminded of this yet again by an account by Todd Feeley of a RATE conference. RATE means "Radioisotopes and the Age of The Earth", and they are an excuse for creationist frauds to get together and spout off misleading pseudoscientific babble to a gullible audience. There's always trouble when someone who is not gullible and actually knows something about a subject attends, as in this case. Feeley asks the organizer a question:
I asked why no recognized experts on radiometric dating were invited to participate in the conference, given that none of the speakers had any training or experience in experimental geochronology. He was candid enough to admit that they would have liked to included one on the team, but there are no young- earth geochronologists in the world.
Umm, duh?
These conferences have no competent qualified speakers; in fact, they always have the same tired old crackpots (Humphreys, Baumgardner, Snelling) saying exactly the same falsehoods over and over. These guys are in the business of selling humbug, and when you see their names you should simply ignore their work — it's laced with lies.
Here's another revealing moment: bogus data.
I also told him that he had a problem because the core sample he showed in his talk from where his zircons were separated was clearly a gneiss and not a granodiorite ('with schist veins through it'), as he claimed. I could see this from the back row, as could the undergraduate geology students in attendance.
I don't know schist and I can't tell my gneiss from a hole in the ground, and I wouldn't have been able to recognize these rocks if they were flashed at me on a screen; I do know that you shouldn't confuse igneous with metamorphic rocks if you're trying to date them, and that fudging your observations that badly means your whole argument is crap.
I'm reminded of the time a creationist tried to invite me to a creationist geology talk — that would have been a waste of effor. Expertise is real and it matters, and I have none in geology at all … but I do have a Ph.D. I'm sure my glazed-eyed bafflement at what any geologist would have recognized as truly stupid mistakes would have been taken as an affirmation, and that's exactly what they want, to confuse their audiences and declare victory. They win when we're all as ignorant as they are.
Comments
...but there are no young- earth geochronologists in the world.
Man, this part REALLY cracked me up...
Ever wonder why that is, Sparky?...
Posted by: Bob | April 24, 2007 11:13 AM
And having experts at a creationist seminar is the best way to have good fun!
A local presentation here in Dumbfuckistan, I mean, Kansas, as described here was particularly amusing, as we had a nuclear chemist, a few of his PhD students, at least one biologist, physicist, and a paleontolgy professor. It was quite the show.
Needless to say, when all of us continued to come to every presentation they had at WSU and every time we hammered them on their complete lack of knowledge, they gave up after the third meeting (or they stopped advertising).
Cheers.
Posted by: Fastlane | April 24, 2007 11:15 AM
Hrm, for some rason, the tag didn't work. The blog entry describing one of the 'seminars' is at
http://hotcupofjoe.blogspot.com/2006/06/dr-bill-lucas-cracked-up.html
Cheers.
Posted by: Fastlane | April 24, 2007 11:16 AM
You use the term "creation science". Wouldn't it be better to never use the words "creation" and "science" together without the word "hoax"?
As in "creation science hoax"
Posted by: Mooser | April 24, 2007 11:42 AM
Evilution's not real!!! IT'S NOT - IT'S NOT - IT'S NOT!!!
Posted by: Alex | April 24, 2007 11:48 AM
It is immoral to date your own gneiss.
Posted by: quork | April 24, 2007 12:06 PM
It is immoral to date your own gneiss.
*sporfle*
Posted by: Kyra | April 24, 2007 12:13 PM
'Creation science'? Nah, cretins' seance.
Posted by: Roy | April 24, 2007 12:14 PM
Ignorance, I guess, is the sort of starry-eyed bliss that comes from knowing your soul is saved for all of eternity to the power of infinity and therefore must be protected at all costs.
Posted by: Blader | April 24, 2007 12:18 PM
Posted by: llewelly | April 24, 2007 12:21 PM
They all died 4,499,994,000 years ago?
You're way off. They're still living in the Planck era.
Posted by: Kristine | April 24, 2007 12:44 PM
It is immoral to date your own gneiss.
Posted by: quork
Gneiss try.
Posted by: jimmiraybob | April 24, 2007 1:03 PM
I might have known the creationists would take too much for granite. (& we know that's not gneiss)
I suppose if creationist were studying seabirds they would take too much for gannet.
Posted by: Jim Baerg | April 24, 2007 1:19 PM
OK, fine.
..."I do know that you shouldn't confuse igneous with metamorphic rocks if you're trying to date them..."
So you're saying that someone who confuses igneous with metamorphic rocks is being disenignious?
Sorry, it was beckoning.
Posted by: Alex | April 24, 2007 1:21 PM
Holy schist, I hate geology puns.
Posted by: Carlie | April 24, 2007 1:22 PM
It is immoral to date your own gneiss.
I think we all take that for granite.
Posted by: Gerard Harbison | April 24, 2007 1:23 PM
I think you mean that we all share that same sediment.
Posted by: Alex | April 24, 2007 1:25 PM
Anyone who attributes the slightest amount of moral integrity to creationists is being too magma-nimous. Everything they say is wrapped in a mantle of lies with a thin crust of false piety; at the center lies a core of ugliness.
Anything which feeds their authoritarian power fantasies is fair game. They'll even insist that a circle's circumference divided by its diameter is exactly three, thanks entirely to Second Kings — and we all know the value of pyrite.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | April 24, 2007 1:29 PM
Do you remember geology punch...a sink-full of lab alcohol, a can of frozen Hawaiian punch concentrate, and a block of dry ice? Goes down like a geosyncline, hits you like a rockpick.
Posted by: VJB | April 24, 2007 1:32 PM
My continued conversation with John A. Davison
This just keeps getting funnier.
Posted by: w00t | April 24, 2007 1:38 PM
Uh-oh. A pun series -- is this place turning into talk.origins now?
Posted by: PZ Myers | April 24, 2007 1:49 PM
-- and we all know the value of pyrite.
Well, let's just hope - for the sake of the children - that we can get this properly ironed out and that we don't have to sulfide through endless debate.
I believe that we should all turn to diaGenesis for the one true answer.
Posted by: jimmiraybob | April 24, 2007 1:49 PM
It's not like geology is set in stone.
Posted by: Peter | April 24, 2007 2:04 PM
I've got too much on my plate to be spending my time inventing more of these puns, if you get my drift. . . . But there's that ever-present temptation to go in deep — see, venting isn't always healthy!
Posted by: Blake Stacey | April 24, 2007 2:07 PM
Through no fault of my own, I refuse to participate in this foolishness.
Posted by: Zeno | April 24, 2007 2:20 PM
Uh-oh. A pun series -- is this place turning into talk.origins now?
More like Eschaton.... they know that punning schist isn't gneiss, but they can't seem to help themselves.
Posted by: Tlazolteotl | April 24, 2007 2:22 PM
My family and I went to Zion over spring break. So, let's see, in 2005, Death Valley; 2006, Grand Canyon; 2007, Zion.
Anyone who thinks these features were created as a result of Noah's flood, well, they have rocks in their heads.
I'm rarely this subtle.
The observation about "no young-earth geochronologists" is really on the mark. You really, really have to utilize twisted logic to think Death Valley, Grand Canyon and Zion could have been created in a short period of time (and yes, I know that Grand Canyon is a relative baby, but come on, 40 days and 40 nights?).
I would urge creationists to get out in the world and actually observe. Then be honest with yourself and try to answer these questions:
1) Where'd the water from Noah's Flood come from?
2) Where'd it go?
Posted by: MikeM | April 24, 2007 2:22 PM
I've seemed to be between a rock and a hard place.
Posted by: Steve_C (Secular Elitist) FCD | April 24, 2007 2:23 PM
Oh, c'mon, Zeno -- this thread rocks!
Posted by: Sastra | April 24, 2007 2:28 PM
I fissure we'll go too far with these puns pretty soon....just as soon as someone does something cute and witty with limestone, like cracking that its a very holy rock or something.
Posted by: Blader | April 24, 2007 2:31 PM
Q: Where in Geriatrics will you find the Depends?
A: On the incontinental shelf!
Posted by: Kseniya | April 24, 2007 2:32 PM
My Tethys hurt from trying to clamp my mouth shut to keep from laughing out loud. I hope it's not Permiant.
Posted by: Elf Eye | April 24, 2007 2:45 PM
Now, now. It's much too early in the year for Talk Like A Pyrite Day.
Posted by: xebecs | April 24, 2007 3:00 PM
Uhg.
I seem
or
I've seemed to have found myself...
I really am trying to work on my speed editing.
Posted by: Steve_C (Secular Elitist) FCD | April 24, 2007 3:11 PM
Oh, come on, it would be un-seamly not to join in - dont' be a nonconformist!
Posted by: Carlie | April 24, 2007 3:36 PM
When it comes to creationism I always say, "Igneous is bliss." It's their own fault!
Posted by: Kristine | April 24, 2007 3:38 PM
But is there really any objective truth in this geology stuff - isn't all just in the gneiss of the beholder?
Posted by: Thinker | April 24, 2007 3:39 PM
Augh - couldn't fix my typo quickly enough. I need to alluviate my typing difficulties or I won't get many fans.
Posted by: Carlie | April 24, 2007 3:47 PM
Thinker, don't put the karst before the horst.
(@ Rich - burn me if you can! Burn me, I dare you! Anti-woo shimmy witch says Bring It On!)
Posted by: Kristine | April 24, 2007 3:50 PM
It is immoral to date your own gneiss.
Go schist in your hat.
Posted by: George Cauldron | April 24, 2007 3:50 PM
Through no fault of my own, I refuse to participate in this foolishness.
Posted by: Zeno
Shear madness I tells ya! Not normal atoll.
Posted by: jimmiraybob | April 24, 2007 3:52 PM
Ow Ow Ow, I was just in a auto accident and this comment thread is punn-ishing me. I'm rocking with the pain of laughing.
Posted by: Natasha Yar-Routh | April 24, 2007 3:54 PM
I'm strongly disynclined to deposit any contribution to what seams to be nothing but a geological series.
Posted by: Stephen Wells | April 24, 2007 4:00 PM
Okay! Okay! I think we've all had enough pumice-ment for today. We should all just start over with some clean slate. You know, bauxite up and store it in the basement.
Posted by: stogoe | April 24, 2007 4:07 PM
Kristine - It may sound funny, but your shimmy is still rock and roll to me.
Posted by: J-Dog Joel | April 24, 2007 4:07 PM
Kristine: I guess it's alright to love geology, at least if it's purely plutonic...
Posted by: Thinker | April 24, 2007 4:12 PM
Is John Wilkins feeling okay? It's not like him to leave a pun cascade like this alone for so long, so I hope he's not ill.
Posted by: arens | April 24, 2007 4:24 PM
Don't be siliCa rlie; we still lava you.
Posted by: RavenT | April 24, 2007 4:28 PM
Wilkins' still suffering the effects of deciding to plagioclase feldspar with Harter.
Posted by: Foggg | April 24, 2007 4:33 PM
These jokes are a high-tech tonic to the stresses of the day. Thanks everyone.
Posted by: Kseniya | April 24, 2007 4:37 PM
Ow, Ow, Ow! That made my teeth hurt. I pumice not to tell anyone what this thread has metamorphed into.
Ken
Posted by: Ken Mareld | April 24, 2007 4:40 PM
Best thread I've read in a loooong while, my coworkers complained of my loud laughing!!!
Posted by: Floyd Carinci | April 24, 2007 4:51 PM
This thread is bound to become a clastic.
Posted by: Kristine | April 24, 2007 4:52 PM
I'm not going to tell the one about the glacial surge and the flow cleavage. It's just not appropriate. I can't a-fjord to.
Posted by: stogoe | April 24, 2007 5:10 PM
Strange. It seems as if everyone here is speaking with a lith.
Posted by: Scott Hatfield, OM | April 24, 2007 5:13 PM
Ok, enough is enough. I'm going to go back outside and enjoy the beautiful weather before we get moraine. Later, I'll be going to a French restaurant for some eskargot, then it's off to see the Cirque de Varve, which features exotic music played entirely in the Eolian mode. My date will be former Red Sox hurler and part-time rock guitarist Bronson Arroyo. I can't wait!
Posted by: Kseniya | April 24, 2007 5:28 PM
"He was candid enough to admit that they would have liked to included one on the team, but there are no young- earth geochronologists in the world."
Ahh, bask in that lucid yet ignorant, undetected revelation of true purpose. "I would've liked to have fulfilled your requirement, however I haven't found a proper head-nodder yet."
Honesty works in mysterious ways...
Posted by: BlueIndependent | April 24, 2007 5:39 PM
This post and its subsequent comments made my day.
Posted by: Abram Rickards | April 24, 2007 6:08 PM
I have to say, this thread illustrates one of the joys of this particular blog. Here you have a blog marginally dedicated to icky animal development (I mean, they're squishy, eww), yet at a brief provocation the commenters are broadly versed enough to sound like a bunch of drunken geology grad students out in the field. Not that I know what those would sound like or anything. I've only heard stories. Kicks the butte out of other Minnesota blogs, you breccia.
Posted by: Carlie | April 24, 2007 6:13 PM
Carlie, that WAS a "butte" - just when I thought you were being completley serious! LOL!
Posted by: Kseniya | April 24, 2007 6:19 PM
Hey, I wanna hear about that horny Pleistocene caveman--you know, the glacial erotic.
Posted by: mark | April 24, 2007 6:32 PM
These buttes were made for rockin', or so they say.
Posted by: Owlmirror | April 24, 2007 6:45 PM
I am in ore of your linguistic abilities
Posted by: VancouverBrit | April 24, 2007 6:50 PM
I was being entirely serious; one might say concrete rather than abstract (the better to avoid going around in cirqueles).
But what I'd like to know is, does the glacial erotic have seismic moments?
Posted by: Carlie | April 24, 2007 6:55 PM
The day that IDists begin to criticize these YEC charlatans will be the first day that they have shown any credible interest in scientific honesty at all. From that time on they'll only have an Everest of dishonesty to overcome.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/35s39o
Posted by: Glen Davidson | April 24, 2007 7:15 PM
What a clastic flow of puns this thread has generated. Onya PZ.
Posted by: KiwiInOz | April 24, 2007 7:19 PM
Once saw a truck parked in front of the liquor store with a bumper sticker that read "All of my faults are normal"
Also, "Lateral stream piracy" is an amusing term
Posted by: Rex | April 24, 2007 8:06 PM
Sheesh! You guyz sound like you've bin quaffing too many quartz of Bombay Sapphire or somethin.
Posted by: Fernando Magyar | April 24, 2007 8:28 PM
At the BookCrossing convention in Toronto last year, someone was wearing a T-shirt that said "STOP PLATE TECTONICS." I don't know where she got it.
Posted by: Monado | April 24, 2007 10:07 PM
I really can't decide whether to take any of these posts laterally.
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | April 24, 2007 10:58 PM
Heh. You guys all rock.
Posted by: magista | April 24, 2007 11:20 PM
See! See! I was right not to get involved. This thread devolved into utter chaos. Like everyone was stoned, man!
Posted by: Zeno | April 25, 2007 1:34 AM
I'm uniformly of the opinion that YEC conferences are catastrophic!
Posted by: huxley | April 25, 2007 9:25 AM
27 Mike> Goddidit.
See how much simpler things are when you don't need evidence? (or logic)
Shale I taunt you a second time? If I could get off the fluorite come up with more puns.
Posted by: Godless McHeathenpants | April 25, 2007 2:17 PM
It slate for that, G.McH.
Posted by: Kseniya | April 25, 2007 2:36 PM
The blind faults of geologists cause their disconformity with the lavas of God. The plane people were therefore encrusted with the truth graben in God's word. Syn-rifts us from God, and simple faulting of the Bible means that scientists slip away from true geology.
Aside from the series of bad puns, that essentially is the "reason" why all of these ignorant folk believe that their "truth" trumps all of the "wisdom of men".
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/35s39o
Posted by: Glen Davidson | April 25, 2007 3:20 PM
Plagioclase is that mandatory English 101 course you have to take in first year science, whereas labradorescence is clearly a biology term involving pheromones.
Posted by: JohnnieCanuck | April 26, 2007 3:54 PM