…and this is a 
Disagreeing with Wilkins
Category: Godlessness
Posted on: April 9, 2007 9:28 AM, by PZ Myers
Wilkins is not happy that I jumped down Pagels' throat for a stupid comment in an interview. He thinks I ought to take Pagels more seriously (as did some of the commenters here), and, unfortunately, also goes on to mischaracterize the uppity atheist arguments, like so:
This is what I reject about the Dawkins/Moran/PZ aggressive atheism - it takes the most stupid version of religion, argues against it, and then claims to have given reasons for not being religious. At best (and here I concur) they have given reasons not to be stupid theists. But a good argument takes on the best of the opposing view, not the worst.
Alas, as is common for criticisms of this kind, the "best" of the religious views are mentioned as a mythic monolith on a far-off mountaintop, rather than actually stated, making them rather difficult to take on. I think it's because whenever anyone tries to state them, there's usually a lot of hemming and hawing and admissions that they don't actually believe in these arguments, they're just trying to be fair and state that there are good arguments out there. It's basically a bait-and-switch: They say, "I may believe X, but here's Y; you can't refute Y!" Then we pound on Y for a while, and they say, "Why are you wasting my time with arguments against Y? I believe in X!" So you pummel X for a bit, and they announce, "I may believe X, but here's Z; you can't refute Z!" And so it goes, endlessly. This is the theme I argued in an essay on Edge.
Here's a little story to help you understand my point of view. Once upon a time, there was an imaginary anthropomorphic supernatural god, and there were all kinds of stories about him or her doing magical things on Earth, and some of those stories were entertaining or even great works of literature. People got cleverer, though, and they built a great high-powered laser (figuratively speaking) out of logic and reason and history and good scholarship, and they trained it on the hairy thunderer and zapped him into a slowly dissipating cloud of attenuated plasma. We uppity atheists don't get to take credit for that; I'll freely concede that it was theologians like Pagels who did it first. Good for them.
The weird result, and the problem we're wrestling with now, is that there were different responses to the Great Zap.
The majority of people on this planet did not notice that a bunch of smart people blasted their god into vapor. He was imaginary to begin with, the demonstration of his logical nonexistence did not represent any change in his behavior, and so they go right on making up self-serving stories about his magical doings (alas, no great literature is emerging from this degenerate belief any more, unless you count the Left Behind books.)
Some people, even people like Pagels who pulled the trigger, liked the long-bearded old white man in the sky, so they keep going through the motions and worshipping him. I really don't understand this group at all, but I guess in some the force of tradition is strong enough and the willingness to partition off unwanted ideas in the right context is ubiquitous enough that they can keep going. I am not at all sympathetic to the members of this group who want to blindly disavow the existence of group #1; group #2 is the weirdest of the bunch.
Some people look at the great hole punched in their myths with dismay, and find a new excuse: worship the vapor! Yeah, that's the ticket—god isn't a man-shaped entity, he's the Great Cosmic Gas, praise be lines of electromagnetic force and lumps of matter! Of course, we're working on tuning the laser to zap those, too…
Among those who have noticed the obliteration of the human-like god and are looking around at what's left, some have noticed the great Logical Laser, and how powerful it must be, so they've started worshipping that. These are the humanists, and I do feel some sympathy with them—at least they've picked something real and useful, and the laser sure is nifty.
A subset that crosses boundaries, that is, some of whom are religious or humanist or atheist, are noticing all these people after the Great Zap who are casting about looking for something to worship, and are wondering if "worship" is an intrinsic need in humanity. People like Scott Atran are busy looking for cultural and biological substrates that would drive people to believe. That's not an uninteresting question, I just wish they'd notice the existence of group #6.
A few, the uppity New Atheists of which I am a member, are looking at the old myths, the god-shaped hole, the cosmic forces, the laser of reason, and are saying that what is, is — it's all very interesting, but we don't have any reverence in us that is looking for an outlet. We don't need to displace religious feelings onto anything, because we don't have them, and the sooner the rest of your clowns get over this cultural inertia that's bogging you down in unnecessary piety, we can move on to much more interesting subjects. Our job is to puncture those unwarranted feelings of respect that are left over in the debris from the disintegration of God, and maybe help spread the word to group #1.
So sorry, Wilkins, I'm not conceding a thing. Pagels is a smart scholar who is still carrying around some goofy-looking baggage, and you yourself are burdened with a lingering deference for ozone. You're never going to talk me into sharing that fondness for irrelevant apologetics, and besides, I'm having too much of a good time blowing raspberries at the godly.
Oh, and if you want more, I agree with Rosenhouse. He's taken care of the details.
Comments
In the end what you are doing is taking away a security blanket. For many, looking into an eternity of non-existence is too overwhelming to contemplate. They need the assurance of something more to ease the certainty of death.
Posted by: ckerst | April 9, 2007 9:52 AM
You've said it before, of course, but let's say it again: If all the "uppity atheists" have done is debunk the "most stupid" versions of religion, then what are the other versions (the more "sophisticated" ones?)which remain?
Posted by: Jeff Chamberlain | April 9, 2007 9:57 AM
There are two other categories: 7) Those who wonder why they and the laser are here in the first place (the nifty laser doesn't seem to help with that), and 8) Those who "worship" the people, their art, and their culture, and not the laser.
Posted by: dave | April 9, 2007 9:58 AM
Hmm, interesting that you refute Fox Mulder in there as well.
("I want to believe")
Posted by: Richard Gadsden | April 9, 2007 10:10 AM
I believe they say and mean "uppity Atheists" with the same meaning as "uppity n*ggers".
Posted by: RAM | April 9, 2007 10:13 AM
I totally agree, it is impossible to get anyone to actually say what they believe. I think that they know that the bible is so absurd that they distance themselves from it, but they also know that anything more nebulous can be argued against, so they don't want to describe it. You can't argue against something that's never defined, and most people don't believe in the wishy-washy god anyway, making the "intellectuals" even more annoying than the true believers (at least in some ways).
Posted by: Stuart Coleman | April 9, 2007 10:15 AM
Truth is more important than somebody else's supernatural security blanket, especially in an age when people are still killing each other over whose blankie is better. Anyway, security blankets and imaginary friends are for children--it's about time for humanity to grow up a little.
Posted by: dzd | April 9, 2007 10:17 AM
PZ speaks of cultural inertia in point #6. I would add there's another powerful manifestation of inertia: career inertia. Giving up a comfortable, familiar income stream can be very daunting. What's an ex-theologian going to do for a living?
Posted by: Mosasaurus rex | April 9, 2007 10:18 AM
I guess the only answer is to argue against the 'moderately' stupid versions of religion. Are there any non-stupid religions?
If Wilkins thinks Toronto is the Canadian wasteland then I can't really take him too seriously.
Posted by: remy | April 9, 2007 10:18 AM
As a courtesy to Wilkins and to those that participated in his discussion, I believe it might be appropriate to include a link to his post and the discussion which ensued...
Disagreeing with PZ
Category: Logic and philosophy
Posted on: April 5, 2007 11:26 PM, by John S. Wilkins
http://scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts/2007/04/disagreeing_with_pz.php
Posted by: Timothy Chase | April 9, 2007 10:26 AM
Mr. Chase: The link you supplied is identical to the one supplied by Dr. Myers in his post, which he called "I ought to take Pagels more seriously."
Posted by: Jeff Chamberlain | April 9, 2007 10:30 AM
Dualists are always going to have problems grocking materialism.
Posted by: Sarcastro | April 9, 2007 10:44 AM
I am an atheist, but there have been a number of times when I have watched Dawkins on TV or heard him on the radio, and I cringed at how he came off.
I have a few friends who are religious. I tell them I disagree with them, and every now and then if they want to discuss my views, we do, and I manage to do it in a manner which doesn't directly insult them. Unless they insult me.
I could be wrong. A friend has watched more recent Dawkins' appearances and thought he was a lot pubicly smoother than I had remembered.
Posted by: El Cid | April 9, 2007 10:54 AM
Hey that's great. I was just thinking about all this crap that we are seeing more and more recently, about the nebulous Mr Ineffable. By the way, the catholic brothers I used to talk with, they love that word, ineffable.
So since someone first said that of Dawkins's book, it seems more and more religious apologists are repeating the talking points in hope that it will be drilled by force in people's heads, fox news-style.
Your post and your letter to Orr are great, by the way. Right to the point.
Posted by: andyo | April 9, 2007 10:55 AM
I've often wondered: when a vaccine for dental caries becomes available, the impact on the toothbrush/toothpaste/dentist industry could be dramatic and significant. Sure, it'll be wonderful, but that's a whole lot of people who are gonna need new jobs.
Similarly, think of the massive institutional inertia behind admitting it's all a lie and a swindle for all of the millions of priests, rabbis, theological apologists, etc. etc. None of them have any actual, useful skills! How will they put food on their families once the truth about the Sky God becomes accepted?
Posted by: melior | April 9, 2007 11:00 AM
Anyone who is going to regard Christianity as legitimate cannot be taken seriously, ultimately.
Would I take someone who believes in Jove seriously? No.
Pagels chooses to believe a bunch of crap. She's uncritically wedded to it through her numerous books. Too bad.
If she doesn't want people to jump down her throat, she should stop drinking the kool-aid.
It's that simple.
Posted by: CalGeorge | April 9, 2007 11:05 AM
I never thought I'd convince you Paul, but that's what blogs are for. But then I'm an uppity agnostic...
Posted by: John Wilkins | April 9, 2007 11:07 AM
You know how I've been trying to argue that scientists are good communicators, that all this teaching is great training for public speaking? Another profession that is excellent for that is religion, and they have an additional skill that we lack: they can talk endlessly about nothing at all. I think they could get great jobs in business, in pr and ad departments.
Also, the philosophical component of their educations is training in how to think. Once they've removed that weird shunt that channels logic and rhetoric into crafting apologetics, I think those are very useful skills to have. Theologians aren't necessarily stupid and useless, except when they're defending stupid and useless ideas with their well-honed craft.
Posted by: PZ Myers | April 9, 2007 11:09 AM
I had a teacher who said, in front of the class, that he worked over 38 years proving there is something more behind belief besides simple belief itself. I asked for some of his evidence, and he told me it was not the time or place, but maybe we would talk about it over coffee someday (I am still waiting). This all started when he made some comments on "Alpha waves," and how they work in women, and I asked him for evidence for his claims. He told me about "Silva Mind Control," and by the next week I had written out a several page report on why SMC was scam with no scientific evidence behind it...
Later on in the same class on another day, he started to talk about "empiricists" and said, "They believe things are real only if they can measure, or weigh them". He then pointed towards me and said to the class, "Like Pat there. He believes, if you cannot weigh, or measure it etc... that it cannot be real". I interrupted immediately and said, "I never said that." What I did in fact say was that one should not claim science backs their position when it does not. I went on to tell them I have no problem with people believing in ghosts, flying monkey aliens, or cigar smoking clowns under their bed. I just get a bit upset when they claim sciences back their position to attempt to gain an authority from science, or that they place simple unsupported belief of something on the same level as something that does have large amounts of evidence behind it.
To my surprise, most of the front row of the class nodded in agreement with what I said, and the teacher quickly changed to another subject.
So, as you can see, the rules do not change. Make a claim their is something, or evidence for, and avoid giving the evidence for by misquoting your opponent, and attacking that strawman to make it appear you are in the right, while he is not. But never EVER, present your evidence for...
Posted by: Lago | April 9, 2007 11:11 AM
For some reason, ~90% of all things I write, I write after just gettin' up from a nap. As you can see, I do not recommend this...
Posted by: Lago | April 9, 2007 11:16 AM
I don't know, perhaps it all revolves around the word "worship". If I, as a finite being with limited and faulty knowledge, entertain the possibility that an extremely advanced being exists another universe somewhere / somewhen / somedimension, does that make me religious or theistic? Does it even make me agnostic? No, I think it just makes me speculative. However, if I feel a need to "worship" such a hypothetical being, then it then becomes a religious issue, and the hypothetical being becomes a "God". And that may be the biggest difference between Einstein's / Spinozas God and the gods of most religions.
Posted by: dave | April 9, 2007 11:20 AM
"(alas, no great literature is emerging from this degenerate belief any more, unless you count the Left Behind books.)" I sure theres some grate lit based on religion someware. I liked Narnia when i was twelve, and im sure that there are some realy well writen rewrites of the bible out there.
Posted by: HWSoD | April 9, 2007 11:21 AM
The sum total of metaphysics, which I had figured out by the age of twelve or so:
1) We exist. (I'll take Descartes argument as good enough to establish this.)
2) It seems a reasonable conjecture to me that existence implies an origin.
3) I see no evidence whatsoever to indicate that any religious person has a clue what the origin is.
As for a deity, if an all-powerful being exists, then that proposition has no ethical implications at all: it does not follow that we owe it any duty of obedience, respect, or anything else. If it's all-powerful, then by definition it's completely beyond our influence.
The upshot is, superstition has nothing to offer me. The question of a deity's existence isn't even an interesting one, because it's unknowable.
-jcr
Posted by: John C. Randolph | April 9, 2007 11:34 AM
So I'm guessing Pagels is a christian? What brand?
I think the god Pagels believes in is perfectly innocuous and in the end pointless.
And in the end, completely besides the point.
Posted by: Steve_C | April 9, 2007 11:35 AM
Wow, I'm repeating myself in entirely duplicitous ways.
Posted by: Steve_C | April 9, 2007 11:37 AM
So I'm guessing Pagels is a christian? What brand?
A sort of pan-Christian Episcopalian. She loves 'em all.
Do you consider yourself a Christian?
Yes, I consider myself a Christian. I happen to go to an Episcopal church, but I love many of the forms of Christianity. And I could as easily be in another church or another religious tradition if I'd been brought up differently. Of course, that's what some people would call heresy. But the word "heresy" in Greek actually means "choice." And that's something that certain Christian leaders thought wasn't so good. They would say there is only one teaching. But the claim that if you don't believe the specific set of things we tell you -- whoever the "we" happens to be -- God will send you into eternal fire, strikes me as inconsistent with what I know about Christian tradition.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2007/04/02/findrelig.DTL
Posted by: CalGeorge | April 9, 2007 11:39 AM
I'm new to this blog and PZ's work. However, Dawkin's book "The God Delusion" seemed to confront the most popular religions. I saw it as an argument against the three religions that the most people ascribe to. It didn't seem like he was picking an easy target, just the most dangerous.
Posted by: s dashner | April 9, 2007 11:41 AM
Great literature based on the Bible?
That's a great argument that religion is a spent force.
Paradise Lost vs. Left Behind?
The Last Supper Vs. The Passion of Christ?
Religious art now is either kitsch, S&M or satire.
I am willing to be proven wrong, of course...
Posted by: T. Bruce McNeely | April 9, 2007 11:47 AM
Paul, don't say that scientists could be good at PR or advertising. I've worked in both - intelligence, and an appreciation for the issues is a positive disadvantage.
remy - Paul got stuck way outside Toronto. Some little town where he had to wait for car parts to arrive. I loved Toronto, and if Larry Moran could just swing me a position there (preferably in the philosophy department, but I'd be happy enough working as a janitor for the right salary) I'd be glad to be there.
Posted by: John Wilkins | April 9, 2007 11:54 AM
What is this "new atheism" of which you speak? How is it different from the old atheism of say, d'Holbach?
Posted by: Gdr | April 9, 2007 11:58 AM
This is what I reject about the Dawkins/Moran/PZ aggressive atheism - it takes the most stupid version of religion, argues against it, and then claims to have given reasons for not being religious. At best (and here I concur) they have given reasons not to be stupid theists. But a good argument takes on the best of the opposing view, not the worst.
The best of the opposing view:
Addressing a parish gathering in a northern suburb of Rome, Benedict XVI said that in the modern world many people, including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to "admit blame and promise to sin no more", they risked "eternal damnation -- the Inferno".
Hell "really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more", he said.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1572646.ece
Posted by: CalGeorge | April 9, 2007 12:04 PM
Yesterday's San Francisco Chronicle carried an article about Stephen Prothero's new book on religious literacy (which is really a book about religious illiteracy in the United States). As a nation, we are overwhelming religious and just as overwhelming ignorant about the basic tenets of the creeds we supposedly espouse. (That's one of the reasons I find it so interesting to argue with devout types -- they often know less about their religion than I do. Why the hell is that?) Prothero says religious revivalism in the U.S. led to a basically anti-intellectual culture that puts its trust in "feeling" rather than in "thinking". He could be right about that. Here's a link.
Posted by: Zeno | April 9, 2007 12:05 PM
The Pagel christians like to skip the whole messy hell, satan demons and angels beliefs.
I mean no one believes in THOSE things anymore.
Posted by: Steve_C | April 9, 2007 12:09 PM
The thought experiment above uses "worship" in some slippery ways, making the use in #1 the standard for how it's understood. Humanists don't "worship" human logic in the same way that the fundamentalists in #1 worship the Man in the Sky. Nor do liberal religious people "worship" in that manner, either.
PZ says, "We don't need to displace religious feelings onto anything, because we don't have them, and the sooner the rest of your clowns get over this cultural inertia that's bogging you down in unnecessary piety, we can move on to much more interesting subjects"
This is, I think, unfortunate. The reason for these feelings is assumed (cultural inertia) ahead of the results of #5's explorations.
A writer who I appreciate, as a humanist, is Ursula Goodenough. She certainly is not asking that everyone convert an innate sense of piety to naturalism, but arguing that such feelings can be explained in an evolutionary manner--and enjoyed, those of us who find ourselves with them.
As long as this sense of awe and reverence is coupled with rationality, I see no harm in it. It does not necessarily lead to theistic evolution, panentheism, or Deepak Chopra-like mangling of science for mysticism's sake.
The parallel Goodenough makes is with music. Is it required that, once we have a grasp of music theory, we leave behind any emotional resonance with Mozart in favor of analysis? No, the two can live together peaceably.
Posted by: ck | April 9, 2007 12:09 PM
I didn't. I said theologians would be good at it.
Scientists suck at PR, as Nisbet/Mooney have been telling us.
Posted by: PZ Myers | April 9, 2007 12:18 PM
I gotta admit "Worship the vapour" has a nice ring to it.
Posted by: Reinder | April 9, 2007 12:23 PM
I have to disagree with Melior's contention that no religious professionals have any useful skills. Many of them worked other jobs before they became religious professionals, or have sideline jobs; I know of a monk who used to be a computer professional of some sort, and the man who taught me (modern) Hebrew was a rabbi, but had taught English in Jerusalem and worked as a translator there as well, and teaches modern Hebrew, Jewish theology, and some history of the Middle East courses at the local university when he's not acting in his rabbinical capacity now. A lot of clergy seem to be accomplished public speakers, and I'm given to understand that's a difficult skill for some people -- maybe they could give workshops?
What happened to all those skilled buggy-whip makers?
Posted by: Interrobang | April 9, 2007 12:27 PM
The practice of toggling between the traditional view and the abstract view sounds familiar.
I think this is a well-developed idea among the mainstream faithful. People will use the hardest language to describe their religious-based morals, but their views become pliable when they talk about real decisions they have made.
Posted by: Tony Popple | April 9, 2007 12:28 PM
Forget about the "good" arguments for a moment. If Wilkins and Pagel say that Dawkins is attacking only the bad arguments for God, does that mean they agree that he's right about those? Are they conceding that an anthropomorphic God who thinks up body plans and answers prayers is almost certainly false? That would be progress. Let's start by agreeing on which arguments are bad and issue joint statements to the press, and then we'll get on to the so-called good arguments.
If someone says something scientifically ignorant like "Man is the pinnacle of evolution," biologists will be the first to rush in and say that's wrong. Gently with patience or harshly with ridicule after their own style, but always addressing the error with good science. Theologians never seem to do this. It's disingenuous for them to say we should look only at the good arguments if they themselves never correct the bad ones.
Posted by: jack* | April 9, 2007 12:28 PM
I'm also a fan of Goodenough.
My little list is not an enemies list. I think #1 could use a little education, or at least stop imposing their stupid excuses on my secular government, and #2 is a little freaky-weird, but otherwise, sure, go on doing whatever.
When the revolution comes, I really don't plan to line up everyone except the True #6s against the wall, OK?
Posted by: PZ Myers | April 9, 2007 12:29 PM
Delurking for a moment here, since the apologists are a pet peeve of mine ...
Obviously I can't speak for all atheists or anything but as an atheist brought up in a batty Asian sect and tormented for 20+ years with fear and guilt and extreme cognitive dissonance I must say that I get really annoyed at the "oh, nobody believes THAT any more"-type apologist. When I first came out to my (otherwise lovely) parents about my disbelief, I mentioned all of the crazier things I was told as reasons for my skepticism, only to hear "Oh, that's all superstition, we don't believe that really."
Me: Yeah well you could have told me earlier ya think ?
(And besides I'm pretty sure that if I didn't call them on this stuff they would have gone on blithely making these claims in front of all and sundry. In fact I know all too well that the group as a whole still makes these nutty claims, and have a not unfounded suspicion that they change their tune depending on who they're talking to. Oh, it's all allegorical if they're talking to more sophisticated types, to be sure, but when they get their paws on the sweet but not all that sharp little old lady next door, believe me it's another story altogether.)
But that's not really my point. My point is that a lot of the loony stuff creates massive and often traumatic cognitive dissonance in the first place, and the apologists are actually inflicting more of it on us. One knows for a fact the loony stuff exists (hello Pat Robertson & Co.), but they scream desperately that it doesn't, hoping to guilt one into agreeing. In other words, they're messing with one's (accurate) perception of reality yet again, all of which leads me to think that apologetics essentially = major gaslighting.
P.S. to the security blanket argument above: yeah, so it provides comfort to some people. But dammit, won't someone think of the children (and the wars, and the Inquisition, etc. etc. etc.?) In all my years as a nominal conflicted believer I never once derived any real comfort from religion, only fear, fear, nothing but putrid, utterly unnecessary fear. I'm not sure that this famous "comfort" religion supposedly offers outweighs its considerable costs ... (Yes, I'm still somewhat bitter, can you tell ? lol.)
Posted by: Liane | April 9, 2007 12:57 PM
I used to talk about the incredibly shrinking God. At one point he was large and powerful, having created the universe and got personally involved in the lives of his creations. Over time he got smaller and more distant. Now his power is limited to making images of the Virgin Mary in pretzels, buns and grilled cheese sandwiches while he lives in the Planck space of atoms...
Posted by: Moses | April 9, 2007 12:59 PM
More of the best of the opposing view.
Former Archbishop of Canterbury:
"They say: 'Why as a Christian don't you condemn the Life of Brian?' I said: 'I love the film and I think it is good for religion to be knocked, to be criticised, to be challenged because we have done a lot of damage in the past'."
"We know religion is a force for good but I don't want to control a writer not to criticise me, because I may need that criticism."
If mockery is good enough for the former Archbishop, it's good enough for me.
Posted by: CalGeorge | April 9, 2007 1:09 PM
"What's an ex-theologian going to do for a living?"
History, sociology, philosophy, literary analysis -- all the things they're already doing, but "framing" them (ha ha) in terms of religion.
Posted by: Chayanov | April 9, 2007 1:13 PM
I recently got into the classic debate with a Faith Head. The teenager is convinced his mother has seen demons and that a friend of the family was possesed by a demon.
He sees that a proof that god and exist. He also believe in hell and Satan of course. He's been so deeply programmed he couldn't see any of it as myth or delusion. It's reality for him. He kind of conceded that the earth was billions of years old but would not concede that we evolved from a primate ancestor. He basically told me that nothing science had could shake his faith. He was very articulate and seemingly educated.
It was baffling. I just told them he might see things differently when he got older.
Posted by: Steve_C | April 9, 2007 1:18 PM
He sees that a proof that god and exist. *damn it*
He sees it as proof that god exists.
Posted by: Steve_C | April 9, 2007 1:23 PM
The atheists here are crude and unrefined and prone to redundant statements.
The God I don't believe in is far more elusive, wispy, ineffable, unknowable and all-round classy than any of the Gods you're atheistic about.
Any fool can be an atheist about the God of the Bible. Well, I'm an atheist about the Taoist and Buddhist gods, and they don't even believe in God!
(satire)
Posted by: Christian Burnham | April 9, 2007 1:24 PM
"Truth is more important than somebody else's supernatural security blanket, especially in an age when people are still killing each other over whose blankie is better. Anyway, security blankets and imaginary friends are for children--it's about time for humanity to grow up a little."
I must say, I agree with the sentiment here. My only beef is that I don't think it is within your (or anyone's) 'rights' (for lack of a better word) to determine what's more important for others. If some feel they'd rather have the security blanket, so be it. Those holding thier security blankets securely over thier eyes are still welcome to all the benefits that come from those who cast thier security blankets aside. Ok..that's enough of that metaphor....
The converse of this is also true, those who hold onto their outdated beliefs have no right to insist that others share their belief.
Lest any here take me the wrong way, I do not advocate that one can not criticize other's beliefs, just that they should not attempt to force, by law or other means, their beliefs on others.
The tricky balancing act comes in politics, where we must try to govern and apply laws uniformly to all. There is no easy soltion, but I think a modicum of reasoning and tolerance (admittedly in short supply in some circles) should serve well.
Cheers.
Posted by: Fastlane | April 9, 2007 1:24 PM
For many, looking into an eternity of non-existence is too overwhelming to contemplate
Funny, these are mostly the same people that don't know what do do with themselves on a wet Sunday afternoon...and they want eternal life? Better hope there's eternal TV too.
Posted by: AlanW | April 9, 2007 1:46 PM
The best of the opposition. Brigham Young's racism:
But the Lord cursed Cain's seed with blackness and prohibited them the priesthood, that Abel and his progeny might yet come forward, and have their dominion, place, and blessings in their proper relationship with Cain and his race in the world to come.
http://www.carm.org/lds/quotes_misc.htm
I'm getting the idea that heads of churches do not represent the best of religious thought. Where am I supposed to look?
Posted by: CalGeorge | April 9, 2007 1:48 PM
"alas, no great literature is emerging from this degenerate belief any more"
I'm looking forward to the Paradise Lost movie.
http://tinyurl.com/2t99ob
Satan's vitality as a pop culture figure, as evidenced by these upcoming films.
http://tinyurl.com/3xe27q
Posted by: Colugo | April 9, 2007 2:08 PM
CalGeorge: I am not persuaded that comment #31 is "the best of the opposing view", or that the term 'opposing view' is apropos. At best it is merely authoritative, and (as seems typical of the present Pontiff) authoritarian.
Posted by: Scott Hatfield | April 9, 2007 2:15 PM
CalGeorge: The letters, correspondence and biography of John XXIII might be a good place to start.
Also, I agree heartily with both the Archbishop's take on the 'Life of Brian' and your endorsement of same. Eddie Izzard has some really devastating bits on C of E that could easily apply to the liberal variety of Methodism in which I'm ensconced. "Tea or death?"
Posted by: Scott Hatfield | April 9, 2007 2:27 PM
For many, looking into an eternity of non-existence is too overwhelming to contemplate.
Nothing too hard about not existing. I didn't exist before I was born and that wasn't too scary, as far as I can remember. An eternity of misery may be a much more grim prospect, tho.
Posted by: dm | April 9, 2007 2:34 PM
If Wilkins thinks Toronto is the Canadian wasteland then I can't really take him too seriously.
John has already corrected your misunderstanding, but as a native son, I'll defend the thesis that Toronto is a wasteland ;-).
(Seriously: I'm just a bit allergic to large cities. Nice places to visit, many of them, but I prefer small-to-medium sized towns).
Posted by: Eamon Knight | April 9, 2007 2:34 PM
I've been a lurker for months and months..a bit shy to post but here goes: I am absolutely uppity and even arrogant, unappologetically when it comes to adults telling me I have to believe in a magical floaty thing in the sky, or any kind of supreme being, or that I need to dismiss my logic and rely on "faith". I am not as educated as most of you here seem to be, yet I am interested enough in nature and the cosmos to know a thing or two about it. Last week a woman tried to dispell the big bang theory. I asked her if she really wanted to "go there" with me. She had NEVER read any materials on the subject, (didn't even know what a photon was) just watched a 15 minute video given to her by her preacher that apparently dismissed the big bang and evolution in those 15 minutes. I probably made Dawkins look like a puppy dog in the minutes that ensued. I am arrogant in knowing that I have more logic than a good 90+% of the population at large. If theists want to call us arrogant, so be it. Insults mean nothing by those you can't respect. This is probably why I don't have any friends..lol. The world can be lonely for us atheists, but I think we would rather it be this way than to be a self-deluding, wishy-washy, shifty theist who can't even make up their mind regarding their beliefs.
Posted by: RoxyKitty | April 9, 2007 2:41 PM
I am not a scientist or an expert on religion. I am just a poor old farmboy living in the backwoods of Texas. I happened to read this blog for the first time today and got interested in this discussion. You can put me in your category #2.
I haven't read Dawkins actually but some atheists make me think of a guy in the mall at Christmas time rushing up to a line of moms and kids and yelling "there is no Santa Claus." And then they wonder why no one likes them or why no one got out of the line. I think this may be what Pagels meant by the "village atheist."
Yes we probably made it all up but I happen to like a good bit of it. I don't know why. Probably just because I grew up having good times with other kids in sunday school and enjoyed the after church socials. And still do. I also happen to like standing up and singing old hymns with my neighbors. Our church does some good things. It feeds the poor and offers comfort to the elderly.
I don't know how many of my neighbors actually believe there is a old guy with a beard standing on a cloud. Probably not many. But it doesn't really bother me if they do and I don't really understand why it bothers you. It doesn't bother me any more than it does when my kid starts talking about the Easter bunny.
Now, I AM concerned about some of those in the religion profession who want to take their religion into the political sphere, or want to impose their views on others. I think some of these leaders are quite dangerous. Unfortunately atheists actually play into these guys hands by giving them someone to attack.
Posted by: bill | April 9, 2007 2:56 PM
Remember Hercules and the Hydra?
(NB: I mention this only for its allegorical value. I do not believe the account to be historically factual.)
Posted by: David Livesay | April 9, 2007 2:58 PM
Everyone (well, every Canadian) knows that Bloor & Yonge is the centre of the known universe, eh. And now that I live in a Dorset, UK, village with thatched cottages, the rest of the universe can stay there.
But seriously, TO is a great city.
Posted by: Richard Harris, FCD | April 9, 2007 3:00 PM
The atheists here are crude and unrefined and prone to redundant statements.
The God I don't believe in is far more elusive, wispy, ineffable, unknowable and all-round classy than any of the Gods you're atheistic about.
... Hee hee. Perfect. Y'know, I'd say that deserves quote file status.
Posted by: AJ Milne | April 9, 2007 3:01 PM
There certainly are more sophisticated ideas of God around; Rick Warren's version of God is far less sophisticated than, say, Bishop Spong's. It's probably worthwhile for atheists to acknowledge the difference.
And Yonge and Bloor is not the centre of the Universe, that distinction belongs to Portage and Main...
Posted by: A Hermit | April 9, 2007 3:16 PM
Oh, don't worry. They have plenty of people to attack: gay people, feminists, people of other religious denominations. They'll always find somebody. There was a great routine by Emo Phillips about two Baptists who meet on a bridge.
See, the great thing about religion is that it allows you to attack and vilify people for absolutely no sound, justifiable, respectable reason! All you have to say to justify bigotry is to say that it's part of your religious beliefs, and people are supposed to respect that.
I think that's a scam. It allows people to get away with too much. For example, fundamentalist Christians and many other religious people treat homosexuals with the same contempt they have for pedophiles. Now I happen share their contempt for pedophiles, and I can explain at great length why pedophilia is a bad thing because it victimizes defenseless people, but I can't for the life of me, see what's wrong with homosexuality. No matter though. All they have to do is proclaim that it comes out of their religion and we're supposed to be okay about the slander, discrimination, fear and hatred that gay people have to live with. Just because.
That's what sucks about religion. And if you're getting ready to tell me that your particular brand of religion doesn't justify bigotry, well bully for you and your religion! I can take that and $3.00 and buy a gallon of gas. Until you can get the rest of the religious world to accept your brand of religion, or a least the part about it not justifying bigotry, it doesn't mean shit!
Posted by: David Livesay | April 9, 2007 3:21 PM
You won't find me or PZ or Dawkins or anybody in the uppity atheists movement who's interestedin taking away anybody's rights. We just want the blankie-holders to give up the extra privileges they have reserved only for themselves.
Posted by: dzd | April 9, 2007 3:32 PM
Religion is the ultimate form of narcissism and emotional infantilism.
The inability to accept your mortality is simply the inability to accept the fact that you aren't the center of the universe.
Posted by: craig | April 9, 2007 3:33 PM
"Now, I AM concerned about some of those in the religion profession who want to take their religion into the political sphere, or want to impose their views on others. I think some of these leaders are quite dangerous. Unfortunately atheists actually play into these guys hands by giving them someone to attack."
How exactly do we do that? By saying there probably is no god?
Maybe you need to look at you and your fellow mild mannered theist for who to blame.
But introspection doesn't to seem to be high on your list of priorities.
Posted by: Steve_C | April 9, 2007 3:37 PM
"Unfortunately atheists actually play into these guys hands by giving them someone to attack."
Same with African-Americans. They wouldn't have such a problem with bigots if they would just stop being so non-white.
Posted by: craig | April 9, 2007 3:41 PM
Who has had the best religious thought? Ever. Probobably Jesus? Okay, Let's attack Jesus.
"The kingdom of God is within you."
Bingo! We make God up in our imaginations.
"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
Hmmmm. Not sure about that. Studies have disproven that idea.
The best religious thought comes from Jesus, and Jesus was pretty much embracing liberal hippie ideals, with some screwed up stoner hallucinations thrown in.
Dawkins pretty much said as much in his book, so I'm still with him.
Posted by: CalGeorge | April 9, 2007 3:45 PM
It's all those uppity wimminz' fault. If they weren't demanding equal rights, we'd have no problems. Same with those uppity queers. If they weren't demanding freedom from gay-slaughter, we wouldn't have to beat them to death and life would be like the 50s.
Same shit, different minority.
Posted by: stogoe | April 9, 2007 3:49 PM
If all the "uppity atheists" have done is debunk the "most stupid" versions of religion, then what are the other versions (the more "sophisticated" ones?) which remain?
Here's one:
-Sophisticated gods are simple, not complex: check.
-Minimally interventionist: check
-Concerned mostly with spiritual and emotional matters: check
-Not swayed by prayer: check
Understandable: hmmm. Ideally sophisticated gods should be ineffable, so that is a bit of a problem. However, leading cromologians suggest that Crom can be both understandable and ineffable. Also, the bits about sitting on mountains and sending forth dooms are irrelevant, since only unsophisticated barbarians believe that.
Posted by: windy | April 9, 2007 4:02 PM
I said above:
"Dawkins pretty much said as much in his book, so I'm still with him."
That's not right. Please ignore.
Posted by: CalGeorge | April 9, 2007 4:06 PM
I take this back too:
"The best religious thought comes from Jesus, and Jesus was pretty much embracing liberal hippie ideals, with some screwed up stoner hallucinations thrown in."
Jesus had a wicked authoritarian streak.
Posted by: CalGeorge | April 9, 2007 4:27 PM
Hi PZ,
Jim Lazarus here. I set you up on "Live with the Infidel Guy" about awhile back. Anyway, I saw your entry discussed on Brian Flemming's blog. Flemming wrote:
"PZ has a simple request. If we uppity atheists are guilty arguing against the worst arguments on the other side, will someone please lay out clearly the alleged "best" arguments?"
I imagine someone like me, who's generally against the "uppity atheists" (it depends upon the particular uppity atheist's goal, viewpoint, or message), would tell you that the better arguments are the following:
(1) Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism.
(2) Arguments Concerning the Nature of Abstract Entities as "Divine Ideas".
(3) Certain Varieties of Cosmological Arguments (Pruss, Gale, Craig).
(4) Plantinga's Epistemological Argument from Proper Function (this stems from Plantinga's understanding of what it means for one to have propositional knowledge).
(5) Arguments from Mind (e.g. Reppert's argument is semi-interesting, Moreland less so, Swinburne in the middle).
I imagine that not too many skeptics know about these arguments. The funny thing is that plenty of theists do. And the numbers of theists using these arguments continue to grow steadily.
- Jim
Posted by: Jim Lazarus | April 9, 2007 6:31 PM
Oh, and I agree with Wilkins that Dawkins takes the more stupid characterizations/defenses of theism and concentrates on them, rather than the better ones. A good example is found in Dawkins's book, when he critiques Bayesian theistic arguments. Instead of finding a treatment of Swinburne, or Collins, or anyone else focusing on a Bayesian approach to evidential theistic arguments, you find that Dawkins has simply critiqued Unwin, where Unwin "concludes on the basis of moral arguments that the probability that God exists in 67%. But this isn't enough for Unwin, so he goes on and suggests that by the virtue of faith the probability raises to 95%." [rough quote from Dawkins's book]
Is Dawkins seriously paying attention to this Bayesian approach to apologetics and not Swinburne's or Collin's, et. al.? You've got to be kidding me. That's incredibly cheap and uncharitable. Either that, or Dawkins is pretty ignorant when it comes to evidential approaches to apologetics.
- Jim
Posted by: Jim Lazarus | April 9, 2007 6:39 PM
Oh we've done Platinga. He claims that evolution is random so it can't produce reasoning beings. But this ignores the effects of natural selection on the creation of mental models so his argument fails. (2) looks like it's just equivocation. (3) Cosmological arguments are exercises in question-begging as no-one knows what the limits of the natural world are they can't claim to have evidence beyond the natural. (4) Religious epistemology is crap. (5) More question-begging. Minds are as natural as teeth.
Posted by: Zarquon | April 9, 2007 6:46 PM
Perhaps the reason that plenty of theists know these argument is precisely because many skeptics do not -- it's always handy to pop up with some unfamiliar argument that will hold the critic until the apologist escapes!
I am familiar with Plantinga, and his arguments are utter nonsense. His 'evolutionary argument' seems to rely on a bogus probability defense, a poor understanding of evolution, and a strangely charitable assumption of the reliability of the human mind. It's also a fundamentally negative argument -- he claims that evolution has a low probability of generating a mind, therefore, God. It's not at all persuasive.
Posted by: PZ Myers | April 9, 2007 6:49 PM
Those aren't Bayesian arguments, they're just GIGO numbers.
Posted by: Zarquon | April 9, 2007 6:51 PM
"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
You mean Jesus wrote "The Secret"?? :-)
Don't you love it when "moderate" theists accuse us (atheists) of making things worse when we attack religious nuts? I don't see them waging that battle against fundamentalists, but when we do it, they engage in all the whining and hand-wringing that we're being so mean.
If their religion is so important to them (moderates), why aren't they out there battling t