Pharyngula

PeterM,

I wonder if your observation explains the behaviour of the French during and after their defeat by the Germans in WWII. I have always been suspicious of the echoes of the Allied propaganda output that were still present in our culture as I grew up, during the baby boom.

Posted by: JohnnieCanuck, FCD | May 26, 2007 8:49 PM

That clip is hilarious! This reminds me of when some Americans referred to French fries as freedom fries. I'm sure glad that didn't last long.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_fries

Posted by: Paguroidea | May 27, 2007 12:16 AM

I am by no means a 'liberal' (whatever that really means anymore) but the French bashing is really obnoxious. We don't have a moral leg to stand on criticizing the French surrender in WW2! When was the last time there was a war raging on American soil? More than a century ago! For the French, it was about half that. How quickly we forget how truly awful war is. There may be times when force is merited but it should never be taken lightly. War isn't a joke, or something that 'happens to other people.' There is nothing glorious or fun about war. Sometimes it is a grim necessity, but we need to quit making light about it.

Say what you will about them cheese eaters (hey, I like cheese) but they at least remember what war costs beyond the mere expenditure of francs.

Posted by: Shawn S. | May 27, 2007 1:41 AM

To be fair, they do have fat people (it just took them a while to start catching up with obesity), poverty is not the lowest among industrial nations (in fact, average salaries are near the lowest), they are not independent from middle-eastern oil, and they don't all have mistresses. However, them main point, the French health-care system, is what keeps me there, and prevents my ever returning to my native US.

Posted by: Kirk | May 27, 2007 4:27 AM

I've seen the mass graves from the battle of Verdun, where the French lost 120 000 young men in one of the longest and costliest battles in history. Needless to say, I have a pretty hard time taking this French-bashing from right-wing tooth fairy-ists seriously.

And don't forget the battle of Tours in 732 AD, where the Frankish and Burgundian forces put an end to the Arabian expansion into the rest of Europe (They already had Spain, y'know). With a different outcome there, the Western world might have looked a whole lot different today. Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly could have been named Abdallah and Mahmood instead. That battle should be iconic in the eyes of these self-proclaimed "Culture Warriors" - The West defeating the East in the clash of civilisations. Oh, I forgot - their knowledge of history doesn't begin until roughly 1000 years later. American exceptionalism, what a glorious thing it is...

Posted by: forsen | May 27, 2007 5:37 AM

oh, bummer.

Posted by: forsen | May 27, 2007 6:28 AM

Well that comes as a welcome relief. I knew there were some good reasons why I came to live in France.

Here, whenever anyone says "If it wasn't for the Americans you'd be speaking German in France" we reply, "If it wasn't for the French, America would still be a British colony"

It's all very childish, isn't it? There are tons of young french shifting to the USA, because graduates (especially science grads) are underpaid, and it is very difficult to set up new companies, so you entrepreneurs have to seek their fortune un US or UK. We have a great health service, but a bloated public sector, and high taxes.
There are no free lunches.

Posted by: Stewart Paterson | May 27, 2007 7:25 AM

Correction, my mistake, 350,000 were casualties not necessarily dead. Same with all the figures in my last post.

If you want to depress yourself some go here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_lethal_battles_in_world_history

Peace (and hate)

Mystic Olly

Posted by: Mystic Olly | May 27, 2007 7:59 AM

GOod point, xebecs, and that's why we should focus on what people (and nations) are doing now, and why. The "why" may well have roots in the past, but calling the French of today "suffender monkeys" based on events dating from over a half century ago is exactly like calling the of today Germans "Nazis".

Posted by: Kseniya | May 27, 2007 9:38 AM

Kseniya - Preview is your friend, or as the old adage goes - "POst in hastr, repnet at lwisure"

Posted by: Stewart Paterson | May 27, 2007 10:40 AM

The last time the Brits had their way with the French was a Waterloo:

No! No! No! The last time was at Twickenham in March, in the Six Nations (we'll draw a quiet veil over what the French did to the other British teams).

Bob

Posted by: Bob O'H | May 27, 2007 10:58 AM

I suspect that French reluctance to get involved in Iraq had less to do with their experiences in the World Wars and more to do with their experience in Algeria.

Posted by: HP | May 27, 2007 3:56 PM

Waterloo wasn't quite the last time the British had their way with the French. The Brits did sink a Vitchy French fleet in World War II to stop it being used by the Germans, but I think that's the sort of thing both side prefer not to mention.

Posted by: Ronald Brak | May 27, 2007 8:51 PM

Yes, hooray for France! I'm currently living there and I love it. Unfortunately, Bill still manages to put out a TON of stereotypes about the French. Everyone is linking to his Salon piece and this YouTube piece...but please. PLEASE. Take it with a grain of salt. The whole thing about the French being as sexually liberal as a bunch of weasels running around tail up around the Moulin Rouge -- it ain't true. They're NOT comfortable with public nudity. They're NOT okay with Sarkozy living apart from his wife. They're NOT NOT NOT...lots of things that Bill says. But because he's Bill Maher and very funny, people believe him.

I've just finished writing an article called "The Other France." I'm submitting it to Slate. I'm hoping they or someone similar will publish it. I'm just so tired of hearing the same old crap repeated over and over. I think it really hurts everyone in the long run.

Anyway, if just one person reads this and keeps it in mind, I'd be a happy (temporary) expat. (I go back home to L.A. next month.)

Posted by: Maria Alexander | May 28, 2007 10:35 AM

As an Englishman I love Americans bashing the French. If we're going for stereotypes it's the funniest one there is: the fat stupid, cultureless, overly religious, ignorant, sexually inadequate society attacking the chique, sleek, millenia of culture and intellectual achievement, avowedly secular, sexually liberated society. Ok so I don't actually believe a single word of those stereotypes, but if the American right want to play silly buggers, it's always a good thing to smack them with.

For the Americans who wish to bash France: Go to New York. Look in the harbour. See the big virdigris covered statue of a woman. Ask who gave you that and why.

Oh and one final thing. The "French are sex mad" stereotype is indeed false, we English invented it. For centuries the English have attributed anything that violated our rather puritan primness (on occasion) to the French. "French kissing" (kissing with tongues, oh gosh how naughty!), "French Letters" (condoms, oh my, sex? No thank you!), "Frenchified" (syphilitic, oh dear, perhaps I should have worn a French Letter!) and so on and so forth. You big old independent minded Yanks (who still owe Her Majesty about 250 years of back taxes I might add) are copying that stereotype from us. Stop it! ;-)

Louis

P.S. Some other poster on this blog is using my name. Obviously the varlet will claim it's his name. It isn't. It's mine. Cease and desist, blaggard!

Posted by: Louis | May 29, 2007 6:14 AM