Pharyngula

Who do you think they voted for last election?

Posted by: Dahan | June 23, 2007 1:55 PM

You'll eat your kids?

I can kind of see the twisted logic of all the rest, but wtf? where the heck did they come up with that?

Posted by: Oran_Taran | June 23, 2007 1:57 PM

I've no idea why Calvinists would put this sort of effort into telling people they're going to hell, since it was decided before their birth that it was to be so.

Strange lot.

Posted by: GodlessHeathen | June 23, 2007 1:58 PM

Yes, Tex, but gods are a fiction. And following their immoral strictures is silly and causes grave harm, even though they're fictional.

Posted by: Stogoe | June 23, 2007 2:04 PM

One irony is that the agents of the god of the universe must resort to borrowing the musical creativity of the secular world, rather that coming up with something catchy of their own.

Posted by: Nathan Parker | June 23, 2007 2:10 PM

Ah yes, the Phelpsians. Could someone please explain to me what these weirdos actually believe in? I looked at their website, but it's all hysterical ranting. I can't actually figure out what their system is.

Posted by: Mike Eagles | June 23, 2007 2:18 PM

OK. Stop. Just make it stop. This has to be one of the most disturbing things I have ever seen. I was so upset by this that I followed the link hoping it was a parody of the 'God hates fags' crowd, put together by some clever skeptics to demonstrate the vicious insanity of the former's belief system.

Nope. This is that very crowd, doing what they do, and having a great time doing it. I did hear a giggle near the end, but judging by the unison sound, this was reasonably well-rehearsed as well. They were reveling in it.

I can't convey how much this upsets me.

Posted by: Scott Hatfield, OM | June 23, 2007 2:18 PM

Sorry, but isn't this just an exercise in irony? I thought it was hilarious.

Bob

Posted by: Bob O'H | June 23, 2007 2:20 PM

>>points for honesty

Posted by: cureholder | June 23, 2007 2:23 PM

>>points for honesty

Posted by: c | June 23, 2007 2:25 PM

Third try: Keeps cutting off!

>>points for honesty

?!?!

If a child molester honestly believes that it is right to molest children, do we give him/her "points for honesty?" No, we condemn the belief as incompatible with a civil society and lock the molester away so s/he can't get at more kids. Here, we say, "Whatever you want to teach your children is fine as long as you believe it, even if it involves teaching hate against others based on stupid books of myths."

Child abuse? Absolutely. There's a line in the bible (psalm 137) blessing the people who would take the hebrews' children by the ankles and dash their heads against rocks (so they wouldn't have to suffer the indignity of growing up under an oppressive people who weren't god's chosen).

I think the same way about these kids. For most of them, an early death would be an escape from the torture they will face as they grow up. (I am absolutely NOT suggesting they should be killed!) According to Dawkins, statistically, very few of them will actually be able to escape.

I intend to help as many of them as I can get in touch with. I've been where they are.

Posted by: cureholder | June 23, 2007 2:29 PM

I turned off the song after less then a minute. Nothing new here to see and why watch such poisoned and twisted people. But I did watch the little girl. She has no idea what she is saying. And the smile at the end when she is done because she made her parents happy. Sad.

Child abuse, hell yes. Just think of all the adults that are part of the choir, one has to think they were also like the little girl. It is much easier to hate them because they had the change to try to rethink think their believes and chose not to. But at some point, they were like that little girl.

As for why they did a parody of a secular song? Being creative is not a goal for these people. Cowering under the sight of an angry Big Sky Daddy is the only way to life. Being creative gets in the way of this. Also, being creative might lead to the idea the there is pleasure to be had in using your own intelligence which leads one away from living in fear at all times.

Just feel grateful the people like this are a minority of humanity. If they were more plentiful throughout history and prehistory, we would still be cowering in caves.

Posted by: Janine | June 23, 2007 2:34 PM

Just more proof that Christian music sucks.

Posted by: Bruce` | June 23, 2007 2:41 PM

Tex "except maybe the 'eat your children' part"
Ezekiel 5:10
"Therefore in your midst fathers will eat their children, and children will eat their fathers. I will inflict punishment on you and will scatter all your survivors to the winds"

Every good citizen who wants to help their religion-virus sickened bretheren need to pagemark this - they have an excellent search feature. Know your mind virus.
http://www.biblegateway.com/

For people supposedly full of hate, they look like they are having a ball. Even the toddler. I am not sure hey so much hate stuff as LOVE THE LIMELIGHT.

Posted by: Sailor | June 23, 2007 2:45 PM

I image they're flying the Canadian flag upside down as a sign of distress or perhaps our inverted values. Gay marriage has been legal here all over the country for about three years and it distresses them that life hasn't dissolved into chaos yet. In fact, it's going along pretty much as usual. Possibly teenage suicides have dropped, as gay teens realize that yes, they can grow up, fall in love, and get married, just like everyone else. BTW, it's Pride Week in Toronto and the Mayor and local Members of Parliament will be riding in the Gay Pride parade. Church Street, which runs through the gay village, will be turned into a street fair.

Posted by: Monado | June 23, 2007 2:53 PM

Just to weird you all out, Phelps was a registered Democrat.

Ah. Well, it's America. Zell "Godzella" Miller is a registered Democrat, too.

Posted by: David Marjanović | June 23, 2007 3:01 PM

That's seriously disturbed s**t. Though the targets of their venom is really esoteric. Fallen US soldiers? Homosexuals? The Swedish monarchy? This is a Jim Jones/Heaven's Gate cult just waiting for their time.
I copy/pasted the video (not from your website, PZ) to USA for Africa. I think they hold the copyright for "You Are the World". While I am a fan of 'copyleft' open source, I asked that they would sue these assholes to oblivion for clear copyright violation.
Since they've been around for a while (Westboro Baptist Church), I'm only surprised that extreme violence hasn't been perpetrated by one or some of their members. All religions are cults, but these folks qualify for cult to the tenth.

Ken from Kent

Posted by: Ken Mareld | June 23, 2007 3:06 PM

Let's not forget that many of the early colonists in America were these people's Puritan predecessors. They burnt witches at the stake and saw evil in everything. They would have been right at home singing these lyrics.

Am I wrong?

Posted by: RamblinDude | June 23, 2007 3:11 PM

If it's too late, then let's party!

My prediction for these folks is that someday, we'll see them on the evening news, holed up in their church and shooting it out with the police. The kind of power and influence that Phelps has over these people has only one outcome.

Posted by: Paul t. | June 23, 2007 3:17 PM

You should also know that Fred Phelps was physically abusive to his kids. Often beating the boys severely for minor infractions. I had read a documentary about it at one point. That's why several of Fred Phelps kids (Shirley's brothers) won't talk to him anymore. Fred Phelps demonizes these kids as apostate God haters. I think that's really the heart of the matter when it comes to the Phelps - Fred Phelps feeds on hatred. I think some of his kids (like Shirley) came to the belief that Fred Phelps beatings were just even though they were severe - because thats the way her mind dealt with the experience as a child, which is similar to the excuses a woman might use to legitimize beatings from her abusive husband. Once she legitimized her dad's severe beating for minor errors, once she believed severe beatings were "right", it was only natural to believe God would use severe beatings, too (why wouldn't God do what was "right"?) - and that's exactly the kind of God Fred Phelps taught to his children. He taught them that God's personality is very similar to Fred Phelps' personality: abusive, violent, short-tempered.

Posted by: tinyfrog | June 23, 2007 3:28 PM

Working with little kids, I can only imagine the hours they spent with that girl ramming in the lines so she can sing it from the top of her head.

The other day my almost 3yo daughter ask me what people actually do in a church. Thinking up with a concept to explain it seemed almost laughable. (I answered "singing and telling stories".)

Posted by: Niobe | June 23, 2007 3:30 PM

Well, as a devout agnostic, I certainly belong to their targeted group, but they seem to picture everyone running around with a tube of KY in one hand and some Ready-whip in the other, whose kids are slathered in BBQ sauce and turning slowly over the fire. They would be shocked - shocked, I say - at my quotidian life... And now I have to get back to my filthy, disgusting physics book.

Posted by: carey | June 23, 2007 3:36 PM

These people are obviously very caught up in the revenge fantasy aspect of Christianity -- where everybody who disagrees with them and looks down on them will pay a heavy price someday. They're practically writhing in hate, as if it's a snake slithering around in their intestines. And their religion justifies it all.

They're an extreme example, but I think the revenge fantasy aspect of Christianity is a big part of its broad appeal. These people, because they are more hateful and childish than most, are highlighting something that is lurking in even the most moderate of Christian hearts.

Posted by: Max Udargo | June 23, 2007 3:38 PM

This sort of religiously motivated hatred always makes me wonder what these people think of John 3:16 -- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." This is of course the verse touted by the Gideons as the most translated passage in the history of humankind; one would think that people that claim to take the Bible literally would take this well-known and very unambiguous passage under consideration.

Come to think of it, though, that passage also pretty well undermines Calvinism as well, does it not? I just cannot understand how these people think. Cynical, snarky comments aside here, this one is just so obvious that I really do wonder.

Posted by: Opisthokont | June 23, 2007 3:55 PM

Peter Ashby and others: Okay, good point, no actual 'burning at the stake' of the evil ones.

One of these people's goals is to not be creative. They are purposely not singing well because that would be indulging in vanity, and giving into temptations of the flesh, or whatever.

It really puts things into perspective to see these brainwashed, spirit deadened fanatics chanting their extremist slogans. It makes one realize just how appallingly opposite to 'vital and alive' people can be.
I usually feel irritation and disgust for the 'subservient deluded', the lying religious crowd, but these people just make me feel sad. They are enslaved, and I would have to agree with those who have commented here that cults like these end in disaster.

Posted by: RamblinDude | June 23, 2007 4:11 PM

HAH!!!! All you godless liberals must hate the US. We didn't burn any witches at Salem. What propaganda.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Salem witch trials, begun in 1692 (also known as the Salem witch hunt and the Salem Witchcraft Episode), resulted in a number of convictions and executions for witchcraft in both Salem Village and Salem Town, Massachusetts. Some have argued it was the result of a period of factional infighting and Puritan witch hysteria. The trials resulted in the executions of 20 people (14 women, 6 men) and the imprisonment of between 175 and 200 people. In addition to those executed, at least five people died in prison. One man who refused to plead to the charges was pressed to death with rocks (the medieval torture of peine forte et dure, which, if fatal, did not result in forfeiture of property).

There you have it. Twenty were hung, 5 died in prison under what were probably Abu Gharaib conditions, and 1 was tortured to death, 26 total.

While this atrocity was unfortunate, it does have a lesson that the world routinely forgets. There are similar religious wingnuts roaming Iraq today butchering on a much wider scale with automatic rifles, explosives, and worse in the name of god.

Nothing changes too much. At least once a year, an accused witch somewhere is murdered by someone for something.

Posted by: raven | June 23, 2007 4:18 PM

raven, which wingnuts in Iraq are you talking about? We've got x number of Shiite militias, Z amount of Sunni militias, the entire Coalition of the Coerced, and then we've got the American crusaders, raping and pillaging for Jayzus and his proxy, Dubya.

So many to pick from...

Posted by: Stogoe | June 23, 2007 4:27 PM

I can't help thinking that the Phelpsians are going to flame out one day.

1. Could be a Seung Cho style attack on a one of their targets, a medical clinic or bar or whatever their favorite demons are that day.

2. Could be a Waco style standoff with the cops. But I doubt it. The cops don't do Wacos anymore.

3. Or they could just Rapture themselves like the Heaven' Gaters or Jonestowners. I'm sure they would gather a lot of applause for that one.

Or maybe they will just fizzle out. If anyone but the head wingnut has a capacity for thought, the idea of a Heaven's Gate incident must be a little alarming. Last I heard, the UFO fans were still dead and the spaceship never did show up.

BTW, no one has to think too hard about these guys. Phelps is nuts and this is a very small, very nasty cult.

Posted by: raven | June 23, 2007 4:29 PM

Okay, Phelps theology 101.

1) World has ignored God.
2) All sexual sin is equivalent to homosexuality.
3) Anybody who doesn't believe this, is a "fag enabler".
4) Because the US approves of homosexuality God hate everyone.
5) God shows this hate via wars, deaths, AIDS, etc.

When they called other people hateful, they mean to say that they hate God. And they have incurred God's hate onto America. They are thankful for God's justice and his wrath. Ergo, thank God for AIDS. Thank God for IEDs... etc. They believe we are equivalent to a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah and thusly bad things will start to happen as we are consumed by God's hate. They are non-violent and typically just spread this message of hate (God's hate) as a warning to others... who are probably already doomed.

It's a bit off the beaten path, but it seems about as solid as other Biblical interpretations. I daresay their only mistake is assuming the Bible has any authority at all.

And yes, it was those backwards Europeans who burned their witches. Hah. The Church doctrines read clearly that "the church abhors bloodshed" -- so they burnt them. Loopholes have nothing on nooses. We much more sophisticated Americans prefer to murder innocent people with a short drop and sudden stop.

Posted by: Tatarize | June 23, 2007 4:42 PM

Anyone else catch the subtle misogyny too?

I did, but not the same one you saw.

In a normal group of women, even from the same family, even if they're all broke and even if they're all what the fashion mags call "low-maintenance," you'll see a range of choices about clothes, makeup, hair, etc. Even girls in school uniforms will fiddle with accessories and hair styles.

Occasionally, you do find women (and men too) whose choice in these matters is: I am genuinely indifferent to my appearance. But they aren't common (aside from mental patients); even women who (not unreasonably) believe the whole subject to be crass usually make an effort about it--if they're able--in some regard or another (for example, they take care of their skin, or they have some earrings they like, or they have some outfit they wear to job interviews and such).

Yet here are about a dozen women who are, to a one, face-naked, wearing what appear to be clothes from the Goodwill, and with hair in styles that could charitably be described as utilitarian. Zero effort has been made to make themselves look anything but dowdy, old, sexless and poor. Even the knowledge that, they were making a vid that would put them on display to people all over the planet wasn't enough to get any of them to throw on some lipstick.

Conclusion: These women weren't given those choices. It's probably what passes among the Phelpses as "proud sinning."

Note that a common pattern in controlling women's sexuality anywhere (not just among the Phelpses) is making them feel like crap for looking attractive--especially if they put any money or effort into it. You can imagine what kind of head trips they laid on these women (and will lay on that little girl at the end of the video) to get them to look like that.

Posted by: Molly, NYC | June 23, 2007 4:47 PM

Phew!

I'm glad they didn't actually show the kid being eaten.

Posted by: The Exterminator | June 23, 2007 4:55 PM

Having seen a Louis Theroux documentary on these loons the thing that I noticed most was that it was mainly a way for the older members of the group to control their children.

The attitude was that the children, even those who were now in their 20s, were not allowed to have relationships etc because they had to devote all their time to Gawd but it was ok for the adults when it was their turn. Obviously this is dressed up as "the end of the world is nigh" therefore time is short.

Phelps was unsurprisingly a complete &$%£. When asked how many children he had claimed it was a stupid question. Whereas, considering several of his children are outcasts from the group, it would be interesting to hear his reply.

I have no idea if this programme was shown in the US, a clip can be found here

Posted by: badchemist | June 23, 2007 5:05 PM

Was just looking through their many godhates... websites and discovered this open letter to the UK (written because of a recent BBC documentary), looks like there will be a godhatesbritain very soon. They've even rewritten God Save the Queen to God Hate the Queen, so they will rewrite anything!

Posted by: Amy | June 23, 2007 5:10 PM

"They're an extreme example, but I think the revenge fantasy aspect of Christianity is a big part of its broad appeal. These people, because they are more hateful and childish than most, are highlighting something that is lurking in even the most moderate of Christian hearts."

I hate being a religious apologist, but no, I just can't accept that. These folks are just evil.

Posted by: woozy (blinders! see the world through the woozy element)

Sorry, but don't try to tell me that millions of good Christians in this country don't see atheists and other 'sinners' as the swarming mob outside of Noah's ark.

The churches are filled with people who cultivate submissiveness and feelings of superiority and condescension toward the unbelievers.

Posted by: RamblinDude | June 23, 2007 5:42 PM

That is just plain sick. Wish we could isolate them and their disease.

Posted by: dieselrain | June 23, 2007 6:28 PM

Phelps will be very lucky if god turns out to not exist. I don't think he would be too happy with Fred.

Indeed. The Phelpses say God sends "fags" (which they seems to define rather broadly) to a literal burning Hell. They don't seem concerned about how God handles self-righteous twits who drive hundreds of miles to add to the misery of people who've just lost someone they love--and in God's name too.

Atheism would be an optimistic choice for these people.

Posted by: Molly, NYC | June 23, 2007 6:46 PM

(IN his best Arthur Dent voice) jufulu said quite brightly, "Actually I quite liked it."..."Oh yes, I thought that some of the metaphysical imagery was particularly effective."
To tell the truth I enjoyed the whole thing, it wasn't until I started reading the comments that I realized who they were. I guess my mind was totally incapable of believing that they really meant it. Too, too strange.

Posted by: jufulu, FCD | June 23, 2007 6:54 PM

Could this be part of what has them upset? It appears on many of their flyers:

America bombed our church with an IED made by fag
students at Washburn Univ. in Topeka. In His
retaliatory wrath, God is killing Americans with
Muslim IEDs: "Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and
do my prophets no harm." 1Chron. 16:22. "For it is
written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the
Lord." Rom. 1219. A Sovereign God says: "See now
that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I
kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is
there any that can deliver out of my hand." Dt. 32:39.

      We've turned America

           Over to fags;

      They're coming home

           In body bags.

Posted by: Ted Powell | June 23, 2007 7:00 PM

It's funny. *slap* It's disturbing. *slap* It's funny. *slap* It's disturbing. *slap* It's funny and it's disturbing.

Posted by: Rob the Lurker FCD BMWCCA | June 23, 2007 7:21 PM

I don't know many christians who wouldn't claim they DON'T think that way, but presented with the issues side by side with some biblical quotes, they'd end up agreeing point by point. OK, 10 points for honesty... zero points for smarts.

Posted by: dorid | June 23, 2007 7:34 PM

Behold the face of mass insanity.

How many examples this bleak must exist in (probably well-fortified) cubby holes in North America (let alone around the world) that haven't exposed themselves in a video?

I