…and this is a 
Bang your own drum, but please do bang it
Category: Godlessness
Posted on: July 31, 2007 9:13 AM, by PZ Myers
Richard Dawkins defends the Out Campaign. I really have to stress to everyone who complains that they don't like the design, that it's too bold, that it's too timid, that they don't believe in joining anything, etc., that this is not about conformity — you don't have to wear the big red "A" t-shirt, and no one is going to draft you into the Atheist Army. This is a plea for everyone to get loud and make your beliefs known. Atheists generally are not joiners or conformists or big fans public displays of unity, but we have to start forming some kind of loose interessengemeinschaft — a fellowship of interests — if we want to stop being marginalized. This is nothing but a start.
It's not as if you're being asked to join the Atheist Alliance or American Atheists, although those are good organizations — the only thing you have to do to join this particular movement is to be vigorous in asserting your godlessness, in whatever way you choose. Here in the US, we must make it clear that there is a significant slice of the electorate that wants our government kept entirely secular.
And if you don't like the scarlet letter, Dawkins points to the CafePress site where you can pick from 9,430 atheist designs. Pick one or design your own. It's not dogmatic adherence the campaign is looking for, it's independence and some slight measure of dedication to increasing secularism.
Comments
Our local "Atheist & Freethinkers" group is considering a name change that would dump the term Atheist all together. I'm not a happy camper about that one.
Posted by: zeekster | July 31, 2007 9:24 AM
It's most amusing that some seek to identify with a group espousing an ideology based vehemently upon that which does not exist.
Posted by: Salt | July 31, 2007 9:24 AM
salt, you've just described religion.
Posted by: MAJeff | July 31, 2007 9:27 AM
So you're easily amused. What do you want, a cookie?
Posted by: MartinM | July 31, 2007 9:27 AM
I absolutely agree: it's about being open with your views and demanding to stop being marginalized. I think that has been one of the problems for science and Democrats, alike: before election time, there's no doubt I see at least a 3:1 difference between the theist/Republican bumper stickers and their science/Democrat counterparts. As many psychological studies have shown, people tend to side with whichever side has more people and is more outspoken; thus, it's not as surprising as first thought when Bush was horribly reelected.
If we don't speak up, we don't have anyone to blame but ourselves.
Posted by: Tom @Thoughtsic.com | July 31, 2007 9:28 AM
It's not dogmatic adherence the campaign is looking for, it's independence and some slight measure of dedication to increasing secularism.
The problem is that adopting a uniform symbol for an idea is a step away from independence.
A while back I was watching one of Dawkins lecture from his web site. During it, he rattled off the usual list of gods that most people don't believe in, including the Flying Spaghetti Monster. This got a laugh from the audience, as it always does.
The camera operator also laughed audibly and started hollering "Arrrr!" -- the pirate-inspired cry of the Pastafarian. He continued to cry "Arrrr!" periodically throughout the talk, including over the applause given to Dawkins at the end of his speech, and into the quiet moment that followed before the video ended.
This was not a person thinking for himself. This was a member of a club, doing his best to prove that his club was better than anyone else's club.
I'm quite sure that this guy is already wearing the scarlet A shirt.
Posted by: Jim Royal | July 31, 2007 9:32 AM
I really get peeved with morons who claim atheism is based on that which does not exist. That's wrong. It's completely backwards. Atheism is about the entire freaking universe, all the matter and energy and information within it, leaving religion with nothing but the vacuous maunderings of old dogmatists about nothing at all.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 31, 2007 9:37 AM
I really get peeved with morons who claim atheism is based on that which does not exist. That's wrong. It's completely backwards. Atheism is about the entire freaking universe...
Science is about the entire universe and all that is contained within it. Atheism is a human reaction to a human social construct: religion. Atheism is not equal to science.
Posted by: Jim Royal | July 31, 2007 9:43 AM
I get your point, I do, but I don't want to be hassled everytime I wear an Atheist shirt. I really enjoy being left the hell alone. I'm not a people person. I don't like strangers coming up and starting conversation. I can't very well say, "Mind your own business," when I'm wearing a shirt meant to antagonize and start up a dialog. That would be hypocritical and I save that bad behavior for christians who really really excel at it.
Posted by: K | July 31, 2007 9:43 AM
This whole thing reminds me of the South Park episode where Cartman freezes himself and wakes up in the future to find three warring atheist factions fighting over "The Great Question," which, it turns out, is "What should we call ourselves?"
Posted by: Brian F | July 31, 2007 9:45 AM
So Jim I assume you'll stop posting in English soon? After all, that's the same set of communicative symbols that everyone else here uses. It really keeps you from thinking for yourself and expressing yourself individually. Be sure not to post in any other language already shared by other social primates, you'll have to create your own.
Unless of course it is sometimes useful to have common shared symbols for efficient communication. And unless you think you can share common sign sets with people around you and still develop your own thoughts then articulate and elaborate them with those sign sets.
Posted by: polyglot | July 31, 2007 9:47 AM
This is going to sound really bad, and I'm surely going to take a lot of heat for it, but... frankly, I'm a little afraid to "come out." Though I live in a blue state, it is surprisingly conservative; I am nervous at the thought of announcing my atheism in, say, my neighborhood, because I imagine I would be an instant target for vandalism (I've already experienced this once, during the last election when I had a Kerry/Edwards sign on my lawn - and people tend to take their religion a lot more seriously than their politics).
I realize that this is exactly the sort of thing you all are trying to combat, but for some of us it's just a little to risky. I fully admit I'm a spineless coward. :(
Posted by: LM | July 31, 2007 9:50 AM
I rather like that "Smile: There Is No Hell!" T-shirt.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 31, 2007 9:53 AM
We more radical queers woulda called you a "closet case."
Posted by: MAJeff | July 31, 2007 9:54 AM
I suppose I like to publicly brand myself an atheist on occasion for reasons of willful exclusion from the throngs of crazies here in the midwest U.S. It's not like the shirt has the power to change my identity to whatever misunderstanding people can throw at it. Anyway, if I'm just out for casual midwestern occasions, there is hardly a need to wear anything besides whatever I find lying around.
Posted by: Pattanowski | July 31, 2007 9:58 AM
My T-shirt slogan would read: "Just another brick in Jefferson's Wall"
Posted by: Ian H Spedding FCD | July 31, 2007 9:59 AM
LM,
I totally agree. I am in the bluest of blue states right now but my family is centered in the Bible Belt (where I'll eventually end up). There's no way I can "come clean."
Posted by: Loc | July 31, 2007 10:02 AM
I really get peeved with morons who claim atheism is based on that which does not exist.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 31, 2007 09:37 AM
Then why such energy expended concerning God's non existence?
Go a few posts down and look at all the the Atheist books you tout referring to God;
The God Delusion
god is not GREAT
The End of Faith
PZ, you'd do well to wear a tee shirt proclaiming I'M AN IRRATIONAL ATHEIST.
Posted by: Salt | July 31, 2007 10:04 AM
LM, (if that's your real name), I understand your hesitation. There are days I just want to move unimpeded through the world and other days when I wear my black commie t-shirt with the big red star and my CIA ballcap.
I enjoy injecting contrariness into conversations, especially when I hear self satisfied gaggles of folx who are all muttering about libruls (and gays and blacks and so on). They need to know that real people hold contrary values and that we're not just evil doers hiding behind the constitution.
But I do understand not wanting to play with these people; I mean, really, ewww.
Posted by: Bruce | July 31, 2007 10:05 AM
While true, this comment avoids the issue that LM raises: there is a very real threat to personal safety in many areas. We need some people at the forefront of the movement, vocally supporting the cause in whatever way they can, but there will always be some people for whom coming out is very dangerous.
Case in point: Even though we're much less likely to see negative reactions against gays and lesbians than we were in the past, and even though social attitudes have become more accepting of homosexuality, there are still people being killed, or kicked out of their homes by unaccepting parents, or discriminated in the workplace for being gay.
Atheism is much farther behind on the social acceptance curve. We need to respect the choice to remain closeted for those who believe their personal safety may be at risk.
Posted by: Brian F | July 31, 2007 10:07 AM
So Jim I assume you'll stop posting in English soon? After all, that's the same set of communicative symbols that everyone else here uses.
Polyglot: The alphabet, dictionary, and the rules of grammar do not constitute a uniform symbol for a single idea. Nor do individual words count as symbols. Word carry meaning, but they are not (for the most part) stand-ins for entire sets of ideas.
The scarlet A is such a stand-in.
Posted by: J | July 31, 2007 10:08 AM
"In business news, straw prices are reaching an all time high. Economists blame increased demand caused by the religious backlash against the so-called "New Atheism". Prices may rise as high as $80/bale before the end of the year..."
Posted by: heliobates | July 31, 2007 10:13 AM
You know what else I just thought of? If I bought an Atheist shirt, I'd have to be careful when to wear it. I could be thrown out of malls or told to wear my shirt inside out so it wouldn't offend anyone. I'd definitely be tossed out of Disney because the shirt would be considered offensive. I don't want to spend my time suing people OR rethinking what I'm going to wear so I don't get punished and have to sue.
Or admitting that an Atheist can be thrown out of the mall or Disney just for admitting to being an Atheist? Afterall, we can't use the freedom of religion argument.
And I can see the rest of you, I see you. If something like that happened to me, would ANY of you be willing to show up in Atheist shirts to protest? I heard about a bunch of nursing mothers protesting at a Toys R Us because they didn't allow nursing. What would any of you people do? Nothing, and you know it. "Oh, it costs too much to fly to Orlando to do a sit-in at Disney." "I don't want to be thrown in jail for trespassing."
Posted by: k | July 31, 2007 10:14 AM
Brian F.,
believe my I know. I've often mentioned that, for me, being an out atheist would get me more strange looks and comments than being an out queer when I lived in Mankato, MN.
But, I also know that the fear is more often greater than the actual threat. That's one of the reasons that LGBT movements adopted coming out as a political strategy. The more who do it, the safer it becomes for others. But, at some point, you just gotta fucking do it.
Some recent polling had around (or over) 90% of self-identified gay and lesbian people (these pollsters can never quite figure out what to do with bisexuals or transfolk) declaring that they were out in most aspects of their daily lives; over 40% of Americans now have someone who is openly gay or lesbian among their close friends or relatives. At the time of the Stonewall uprising in 1969, there were fewer than 50 openly gay organizations in the nation.
Quite a bit of change in less than 40 years. (heck, we may be even entering a post-closet world in some parts of the country...a LOT of change) And coming out, collectively and individually, has always been a step in that change.
Posted by: MAJeff | July 31, 2007 10:14 AM
As PZ says, bang your own drum. A t-shirt isn't going to fit everyone, if you'll pardon the expression. Personally, I use a 'fortune cookie' email extension that adds a random quote from a text file to the end of all my emails (by default, though I can remove it with a single click). I created the text file by browsing the Internet for quotes, and I'm always adding more to it - atheist quotes, pro-science and anti-pseudoscience quotes, quotes defending the Constitution, Bill of Rights, the rule of law, and the separation of church and state, etc.
After the past six years, I really felt that I needed to take a public stand. I don't post inappropriate statements in email groups, and I don't argue politics and religion with everyone I contact, but that fortune cookie quote at the end of each email makes my basic stance quite clear. Admittedly, it's only my personal, not business, email, but I'm definitely out of the atheist closet. And I get a lot of comments from strangers who approve of the quotes (and from a few who don't, though they've been polite enough).
Posted by: Bill | July 31, 2007 10:17 AM
I'll "out" myself if someone asks, or if church-folks come to the door-- no sweat. My atheism is just as normal and unremarkable to me as my continued ability to sweat this summer.
Still, the whole "open display" thing rubs me the wrong way. My main problem with religious folks is their prowess at filling my life with what should be contained in their own head-- little jesus fish stickers, tracts, apparel, porchstep visits, legal wrangling, congressional involvement, etc...
Frankly, I couldn't care less what these morons think or pray to in their free time as long as they keep it to themselves. I don't see as how that's any more bothersome than someone appreciating different television shows than I do.
But lately, you've been exhorting us to chase these religious folks down their asinine road-- destroying texts, harassing bookstore employees, organizing letter-writing campaigns to protest niggling categorization flaws, and now to be just as obvious and elephantine as the very morons we all seem to detest.
None of this bodes well with me. Wearing some dumb "atheist advertisement" shirt in public is like being one of those people who knits in public, or those authors who can only write in coffeeshops-- its some pathetic crutch towards conversation with anyone foolish enough to approach. Its reducing otherwise productive, interesting activities to simple shilling, and I hope we're all above this.
Posted by: DaveX | July 31, 2007 10:17 AM
If it was just me, I'd be a lot less hesitant (I'm a pretty combative, outspoken individual). However, I do worry about my family, especially the unborn child whom I'll be welcoming into the world this December. :/
Posted by: LM | July 31, 2007 10:19 AM
It's not like someone is making this compulsory. It's being offered to people who might like to buy it. Those who like the look of it, and the message it conveys, can buy and wear one ... while the rest do whatever they want.
As far as I know, this is still Liberty Hall - you can spit on the mat and call the cat a bastard. I'm sure PZ will correct me if I'm wrong.
Posted by: Russell Blackford | July 31, 2007 10:22 AM
DaveX: That's precisely the reason I refuse to put bumper stickers on my car (well, that and the fact that the glue on those things will NEVER come off). I don't feel the need to advertise my personal beliefs (religious, political, or whatever) to anyone else. It's my business... if someone wants to know, I'll tell them, but I'm not painting a big ol' target on my ass. I'm highly annoyed by jesus fish and yellow (or camo!) magnetized "ribbons," and I just can't see myself turning around and doing the same thing. It isn't that I don't care... it just doesn't feel right to me.
Posted by: LM | July 31, 2007 10:27 AM
I'm glad we're finally getting political. PZ, are you going to the Atheist Alliance International conference in September?
Posted by: Jon Eccles | July 31, 2007 10:28 AM
k
I highly doubt that. I wore a "Viva Evolucion" shirt to Disneyland last year and received absolutely no hassle. A few fellow visitors even told me they liked the shirt. Something like "F*ck Religion", sure, that might galvanize the mousketeer gestapo into action, but a tasteful t-shirt? Been there, done that--no problems.
Posted by: Mike P | July 31, 2007 10:28 AM
Stay blue, Ponyboy. Stay blue.
I agree, and must point out that this has nothing to do with atheism. Those who fight against secular public institutions do not believe in the principles upon which this country was founded, and are radicals who would rewrite the Constitution if they could. My wish? That Christians of every stripe, those who accept the claim that America is a Christian Nation without question or complaint, would realize this.
Oh? Are you sure? This about freedom of, and from, religion. Freedom from. From. FROM.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
Posted by: Kseniya | July 31, 2007 10:30 AM
I do like that someone is making a concerted effort to make a group movement out of atheism, but "coming out" in all aspects of life is not feasible for some. My family would disown me. Now, I know the argument can be made that they are not much of a family if they would disown me over religion, but I still would prefer to hang on to them. So I can wear the shirt at home, or out at the movies, but not at christmas dinner with the grandparents(one of whom is a minster). Hopefully, this makes sense. I will fully admit that I am a coward when it comes to familial confrontation.
Posted by: jenni | July 31, 2007 10:31 AM
I do find it interesting that there is some assumption that all atheists are democrats/liberals (or should be)...
... I happen to be quite conservative in my views... I am one of many conservative atheists (just in my small circle of friends & family)...
... even within my family there is a wide range of evangelical christians / athesists from liberal democrats through right wing conservative republicans...
... it should also be noted that within even the political party lines there are disagreements on issues such as abortion... for example, all the liberal democrats are staunchly against abortion due to their religious leanings... on the other hand, some on the conservative side support the right to abortion...
... if we ever hope to separate church & state, we might have to start by not assuming all theists/atheists can be lumped into one political party or the other...
... don't forget, we are not all democrat or republican... some are libertarian, or independant or ??... possibly, like me, not even U.S. citizens & so, the division is meaningless...
Posted by: DamnRight | July 31, 2007 10:31 AM
I'm very much the same way, except for a clever t-shirt or two, but I did print out the yellow ribbon with "Empty Gesture" on it and put it up in my cube at work. Plus, it's right next to a picture of my wife and me where I'm wearing my Marine dress blues, so I love watching the triple and quadruple-takes that combination of messages and symbols causes.
Posted by: Fox1 | July 31, 2007 10:34 AM
Because the only requirement for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing?
Just a thought.
Posted by: Calladus | July 31, 2007 10:38 AM
I wouldn't mind the A as a bumper sticker, and I'm always looking for something clever to stick on the van. One of these days I'll just start painting my own stuff all over it. (BTW, you can indeed get bumper stickers off. Use a hair dryer to warm up the goo. Peel it off. Goo that is still left can be removed with an application of petroleum jelly, or rubbed off with goo gone or rubbing alcohol, depending on the type of goo.) I peruse the atheist cafepress offerings regularly, but rarely find things I'd want on my car. I am in New Jersey, after all, where cars are regularly used as weapons. My bumper stickers need to promote thought and conversation, without being accusatory or confrontational. Passionate provocation belongs on the internet or in a safe personal setting, not on the Garden State Parkway.
Posted by: Alison | July 31, 2007 10:40 AM
Fox1: you should see the looks my 'Paratrooper against Bush' sign inspires... Empty Gesture ribbon--brilliant. A bunch of people slapping little stickers on their pick-ups always makes ME feel 'supported' I tell ya.
Posted by: Josh | July 31, 2007 10:40 AM
My main complaint over the t-shirts is the pimping of richarddawkins.net as if Dawkins was some kind of official atheist spokesperson. "I'm an atheist!!!...and also visit this website."
Posted by: Mike P | July 31, 2007 10:41 AM
the only thing you have to do to join this particular movement is to be vigorous in asserting your godlessness
I really get peeved with morons who claim atheism is based on that which does not exist.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 31, 2007 09:37 AM
Most amusing. A true popcorn moment.
Posted by: Salt | July 31, 2007 10:41 AM
I like the yellow ribbon magnet that says "I support the yellow magnet ribbon industry."
Posted by: Steve_C | July 31, 2007 10:43 AM
Because the only requirement for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing?
And the other shoe drops.
Evil? An entire population of people declared evil? For holding an incorrect belief?
Wrong-headed, certainly. Pernicious, perhaps. Dangerous, arguably. But evil?
So... we have a reluctant leader, a rallying symbol, and a declaration that those who disagree with us are evil.
Interesting.
Posted by: Jim Royal | July 31, 2007 10:48 AM
I'm not coming out. Not yet, anyway. I value my parents' peace of mind and my job too much.
My elderly parents keep their religion to themselves, but they are devout. I put them through a lot of pain when I was younger, and although they know I don't subscribe to their brand of religion, they would be pained to learn I'm an atheist. They won't live much longer, and these days I focus a lot of energy on communicating my love for them. It's much more effective to communcate love in a way that the recipient perceives as loving. So I avoid religious topics and show my love and gratitude in thoroughly secular ways.
My job is precarious. Many of my colleagues have lost their jobs already. My boss has expressed how much he admires our CEO's leadership and clarity of purpose. He attributes this to the CEO's outspoken born-again Christainity.
I have my priorities. I value my parents' serenity and my ability to support my family more than I value my potential usefulness as a revolutionary digit in the atheist movement. So I'm "out" to my friends who have no contact with my parents or job, but mostly I keep it to myself.
Posted by: Glenn | July 31, 2007 10:50 AM
Jenni: I feel for you, though I have made my political and religious views quite visible to my family. I made quite the statement by getting married on the steps of my state's capitol building, much to the shock and horror of my largely Catholic family (and hey, it was free!). I'm also not having my kid baptized (would make absolutely NO SENSE)... I'm eager to see how THAT one will go over!
Posted by: LM | July 31, 2007 10:51 AM
Clever, but you missed the subtleties. You're confusing assertion with basis in this instance. Assert your godlessness, but godlessness doesn't define your beliefs. Do you catch that difference? You've got a worldview that excludes the existence of a god based on a rational appraisal of the universe. So atheism is not based upon that which does not exist... it's just a consequence of the rational mind. On the other hand, asserting that godlessness is important for political reasons, civil rights reasons, personal reasons, etc. The asserting of belief is far removed from the basis of that belief in the first place.
Posted by: Mike P | July 31, 2007 10:52 AM
On the topic of ribbons, my sister bought me one as a joke when they were becoming popular because she knew I hated them. Oddly enough, it was made in China. (And, even more funny, I have noticed the American made ones tend to fade while foreign-made ones don't. Hilarious.)
I proudly display an FSM emblem on my car and regularly wear FSM shirts (FSM logo in the middle of my chest). In fact, I was wearing one last night as Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door (I was nice, though, and just opened the door, smiled and said "no thanks" and shut the door. I hope they caught a glimpse of my shirt.).
I do worry somewhat about vandalism, being in a part red and part blue state (Missouri). But I figure if someone like PZ gets by just fine, I will, too. There are certainly better targets than little ole me.
Posted by: Tom @Thoughtsic.com | July 31, 2007 10:53 AM
LM,
I understand your hesitation and "cowardice." I live in south Louisiana and have a nearly four year old (in December, no less) who I would worry about if I was as out as I would like to be. Where I live, the religionists carry guns. If it was just me (and when it was just me) I would be/was more outspoken.
I have a friend whose wife (with four kids in the car) was harrassed on the highway because of a damn Kerry/edwards sticker.
It absolutely infuriates me that those kind of assholes can have this kind of effect on people of logic and reason. It almost makes me want to retaliate first.
Posted by: Jeb. FCD | July 31, 2007 10:53 AM
Mr Royal, do you intentionally distort what you read or is your reading comprehension that poor?
Posted by: Bob | July 31, 2007 10:56 AM
PZ,
you say :
"Here in the US, we must make it clear that there is a significant slice of the electorate that wants our government kept entirely secular."
I really doubt that the Out Campaign is the best way to achieve that honourable goal, quite the contrary. This is just going to polarize people even more.
Wake up !
Posted by: negentropyeater | July 31, 2007 10:56 AM
I intend on purchasing one of the golf shirts from one of those links...
... I look forward to wearing it to work...
... I anticipate HR approaching me with their dress code violation for espousing a religious view... the ensuing discussion on why atheism is not a religion should be interesting...
... BTW... the church & religious retreat logo'd shirts are worn regularly with no repercussions... however, I did point out to a fellow today that by adding a small line joining the top of the H in his church groups acronym would turn CRHP into CRAP... oddly, he was actually amused...
... just a few years ago (in my evangelical christian days) I wore church logo'd shirts a lot... made me feel like I was actually doing the lord's work...
Posted by: DamnRight | July 31, 2007 10:59 AM
Assert your godlessness, but godlessness doesn't define your beliefs. Do you catch that difference?
Posted by: Mike P | July 31, 2007 10:52 AM
So in defining your beliefs (worldview that excludes the existence of a god based on a rational appraisal of the universe) you find need to entrench yourself in proclaiming an irrelevancy (godlessness)?
[makes more popcorn]
Posted by: Salt | July 31, 2007 11:01 AM
I do like that someone is making a concerted effort to make a group movement out of atheism, but "coming out" in all aspects of life is not feasible for some. My family would disown me.
My family practically already has. Be careful what you say. I informed my family of my disbelief years ago, and although I wouldn't change that decision, it has caused me no end of grief and continues to do so. I'm an outcast, and becoming more so, as they drift further and further into the wacky right (now they're into all this Israel and armageddon crap). It's scary. Like invasion of the body snatchers, or something.
Posted by: jeffw | July 31, 2007 11:03 AM
Come on, PZ, just start your own church. You've got the choir boys, the symbols, the organizations. Dawkins is certainly the atheist equivalent to Billy Graham and you can be Pat Robertson or someone like that. He's not quite as loud and nasty as you, but he's certainly in the running.
So, there you go! You're officially a "congregation" of atheists.
ps...I like the big A. At least I'll know who I'm talking to and understand why they seem so illogical.
Posted by: Forthekids | July 31, 2007 11:04 AM
Many of my aquaintances (thiests & atheists alike) have been almost run off the road for their Bush/Cheney bumper stickers... works both ways...
... my difficulty would be getting my evangelical christian wife to agree on the content of an bumper sticker... she had trouble a few years ago understanding why I wouldn't put a "descending dove" plate on the front bumper...
... she did however understand why a door knocker stating "As for me and my house, we will serve the lord." needed to be removed once I "came out"...
Posted by: DamnRight | July 31, 2007 11:06 AM
How is atheism less relevant than any other world view? Or, to put it another way, how is any other world view less irrelevant than atheism?
And FTK, how is atheism ILlogical???
Posted by: LM | July 31, 2007 11:08 AM
Mr Royal, do you intentionally distort what you read or is your reading comprehension that poor?
Not at all:
- Dawkins said in an interview on the BBC just in the last week that he's aware that this is a social movement in search of a leader, that he is seen as such, but that he doesn't want to take that role.
- The scarlet A is not a corporate symbol or an organizational symbol such as the logo of the Council for Secular Humanism. It is a rallying point intended to embolden people to become proselytizing.
- This is hardly the first time I've heard religious people in general referred to as evil in forums such as this one.
Negentropyeater is correct: Polarization is the only outcome of this movement.
Posted by: Jim Royal | July 31, 2007 11:09 AM
we must make it clear that there is a significant slice of the electorate that wants our government kept entirely secular.
... not all of which slice is entirely godless, you know. (I hope you know; Kseniya does!)
Negentropyeater: PZ doesn't polarise me. And I hope there are a lot of others like me. Though I sometimes wish I were, I'm simply not an atheist. So I won't be wearing a scarlet letter t-shirt. But good on PZ if he does; nobody should let himself be intimidated by a crowd of rabid sheep.
And remember: religion has no place in government, regardless of what you do (or don't) believe. Écrasez l'infame!
Posted by: Mrs Tilton | July 31, 2007 11:11 AM
Nor do individual words count as symbols.
Introductory course in semiotics, STAT!
Of course words are symbols. They certainly aren't the thing, are they?
Posted by: Graculus | July 31, 2007 11:13 AM
negentropyeater:
So, people are going to see these shirts and start going to church again? Infidels will queue for public baptism, and biologists will join the Discovery Institute?
Or will some people buy a shirt and others not, while some stick a logo on their website and others not. This is hardly the stuff of a Sunni/Shi'ite schism.
Hey, we all like to argue. Sometimes, that argument can move towards a productive choice of action; if not, there'll always be a new argument tomorrow.
To quote Dawkins' latest essay on this campaign, "Chill OUT."
Posted by: Blake Stacey, OM | July 31, 2007 11:15 AM
Responding to the suggestion to "design your own" t-shirt, here's what I think is a much better: WWRTD? To be fair, it's a much more esoteric reference (Russell's Teapot, to answer the question), but it's not like people are going to recognize the appropriately-fonted A without help.
Posted by: Randall | July 31, 2007 11:17 AM
Nope. No discrimination against atheists here. Move along. Nothing to see. Go on home now. That's it.
Posted by: Kseniya | July 31, 2007 11:19 AM
Atheism is but a counterpoise to belief in god(s). Atheism and god are inexorably linked. Should there be, worldwide, absolutely no belief in god(s) in any form whatsoever what would the term 'atheism' point to but to that which does not exist? To be otherwise the non-scientific term 'atheism' would have no meaning and should not appear in any lexicon.
Posted by: Salt | July 31, 2007 11:19 AM
But the phonemes have no inherent meaning outside a broader system and particular instance of use.
Posted by: MAJeff | July 31, 2007 11:21 AM
@ k #23
What would any of you people do? Nothing, and you know it.
Although many atheists are the furthest thing from activists, many of us are willing to stand up and be heard. I for one, would be there.
If you feel alone in Orlando, check out the Orlando Atheist & Freethinkers group social this Sunday. I'll be there.
Posted by: zeekster | July 31, 2007 11:21 AM
One side of this equation is already polarized, and has been setting up groups as 'evil' for many years now. In doing so, these people have attacked basic human rights, attempted to quash education, and marginalize those who don't believe as they do.
What would you suggest we do about that?
Posted by: Calladus | July 31, 2007 11:22 AM
Atheism: there is no god.
Science: we can explain the universe.
Religion: poopie for morons.
Posted by: CalGeorge | July 31, 2007 11:22 AM
Salt,
Yes, for the reasons I listed below what you blockquoted. Political, civil, personal. I proclaim it because that "irrelevancy" is hardly irrelevant in real-world matters. Like it or not, people give a damn about what I think about sky fairies. In some cases, the wrong answer carries repercussions. So the only way to correct that problem is by getting the word out.
Posted by: Mike P | July 31, 2007 11:27 AM
Little touchy today, PZ? Geez...
I'm another one of those "morons" who knows the difference between atheism and science. Atheism by definition is about the non-belief in god, the word would have no meaning if no one ever beleived in god. I think you are just wrong on this one.
Posted by: rob | July 31, 2007 11:28 AM
Salt #62, that's hysterical. If we didn't use stamps to post mail, not collecting them would still be a hobby?
Posted by: Bob | July 31, 2007 11:29 AM
FTK...I am amused that you consider US illogical...we aren't the ones who worship the figment of someone's imagination.
I don't like the Dawkins shirt, not because of the A but because of the internet address below it. I'd happily wear the Scarlet Letter without the advertising. But I plan on checking on the site PZ referred to for other atheist shirts. I just don't like shirts with what I consider advertising. (I won't wear Izod, Donna Karan, anyone who puts logos on their clothing.) I'd wear one anywhere.
I rarely put stuff on my car since I grew up in Detroit with leased cars and you didn't DARE put anything on them; old habits are hard to break. So no bumperstickers, even though I think Darwin's fish is cool. (I have weakened enough to put the logo for my daughter's college on my car, though.)
Posted by: Dawn | July 31, 2007 11:29 AM
well, in a world with no gods, the word "theism" becomes meaningless, and thusly, so does "a-theism." There are many groups around the world whose members have little more in common than a disbelief in something else.
Posted by: jenni | July 31, 2007 11:31 AM
To those of you who think you can't come out because you live in a red state / has a deeply religious family etc I can strongly recommend Reed Braden's blog, http://unorthodoxatheism.blogspot.com/ .
This 18-year old lives in the heart of intolerant Jesusland and was raised fundie. Now, he's not only come out of the closet as an atheist - he's come out as being gay as well. One might think he could just as well have burned the American flag in the school yard while chanting Chomsky slogans, but he obviously hasn't been lynched yet.
No one's going to force you guys out of the closet (I, for one, know it can be kinda pesky - my father is a fundie minister), but it might at least serve as some inspiration to take further steps in that direction.
Posted by: forsen | July 31, 2007 11:33 AM
One side of this equation is already polarized... [snip] What would you suggest we do about that?
The reason that these lunatics have the power to do these things is because so few people in your country vote. Only one quarter of the voting population in the USA cast a ballot for Bush in your last election. Get people to vote. That will solve an enormous part of the problem right there.
Decisions are made by those who show up.
How to do this? Well, announcing that you're an atheist won't do it. It will make you feel better, but it won't change the power in Washington. Pick a hot issue related to science: Stem cell research, environmentalism, whatever -- and run with it. Campaign about what matters to people.
Posted by: Jim Royal | July 31, 2007 11:34 AM
OK, so I've been an atheist most of my life. If it comes up I have no problem telling people I don't believe, or, if they push it, that I regard their religion as a bunch of hooey.
But I am very resistant to this campaign. Why? Because I regard religion as a problem, but as a more or less secondary problem--secondary to just the sort of clannishness and longing to belong that this campaign seems to appeal.
I am also highly skeptical of the supposed benefits of a what seems to me to be a pretty vaguely defined grievance campaign.
I might be more interested if some particular goals were attached to it. I really have no idea what it means for the government to be "entirely secular." By most definitions, it would seem to me that this goal has absolutely nothing to do with atheism itself, so why muddy the waters?
It would seem to me that mixing and matching secularism and atheism you run some very real risks: you definitely feed the propaganda machine that equates secularism with state-sponsored atheism.
On the other hand, if we were interested in protecting the civil rights and social status of atheists, I think you'd best take a pretty narrow approach to the secular government deal.
But, anyhow, personally I feel tribalism is the enemy, religion is one of its many manifestations. But I'd be willing to play along if it seemed as if there were some goals driving this thing beyond togetherness for togetherness' sake.
Posted by: Oran Kelley | July 31, 2007 11:34 AM
So are people offended by the fact that the condition of not believing in a god has a name? I don't get it. It's not like people say, "I'm going to join Atheism!" They simply stop believing (or don't believe to begin with).
Posted by: LM | July 31, 2007 11:35 AM
In the queer community you see three prevalent symbols: A lambda, a rainbow flag and a pink triangle. Of the tree the triangle has the most interesting history; it was originally a symbol used by he Nazis to designate homosexuals in concentration camps.
However, the symbols are instantly recognizable to anyone in the "in-group" circle, and to quite a few outside of it, and they serve to show commonality of idea and cause at least in one area of life. They are -- or can be -- profoundly intimidating to those outside the group.
I submit that those atheists who argue against proclaiming their atheism might be more than a little like closeted gays or lesbians. Maybe they'd be better off looking at themselves instead of criticizing others.
Posted by: Warren | July 31, 2007 11:37 AM
The only possible outcome? Really. You could be right, but how do you know?
I will say this: Anything that further promotes the equivalence of atheism and secularism in the public mind will not aid the cause of secularism. Sad - but true. This is important. There is some degree of intersection between atheism and secularism, of course, but that is irrelevant to the importance of secularism. Part of the problem we have here is that the Xtian right is continuing and will continue its relentless campaign of disinformation, and is succeeding in promoting the false Secularism=Atheism equation.
If you want to "come out" by all means come out. If you want to promote secularism, promote secularism. If you want to promote atheism, promote atheism. I caution against trying to do both, at the same time, as if there was no difference. The clear distinction between the two should also be promoted, and doing so will be in the best interest of secularism: not because atheism is "bad" (regardless of what countless idiot theists believe) but because accuracy and honesty demand it. File under: Knowledge Is Good.
Posted by: Kseniya, OM | July 31, 2007 11:40 AM
Jim Royal, you know that might work a bit. I can pick up a sign, walk around knocking on doors, telling people about the issues and why they're important. But it would only me doing that.
If only I had a group of like-minded people that I could work with, who had similar goals and stances on these issues, we could get so much more done together.
Now where am I going to find such a group?
Posted by: Calladus | July 31, 2007 11:43 AM
I'd love those shirts, it just irritates me that there's a big ol' address plastered on the bottom of it, I don't care who's site it is.
Posted by: JD | July 31, 2007 11:45 AM
Warren: I for one am not criticizing anyone. I appreciate the people who have the balls to boldly proclaim their beliefs for all to see. I just don't have the guts to do it myself. In case you haven't noticed, people are NUTS.
Posted by: LM | July 31, 2007 11:46 AM
Twist again and you just might get there.
Non belief in a god is not a belief. Not any more than not stamp collecting is a hobby.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 31, 2007 11:47 AM