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PZ Myers is a biologist and associate professor at the University of Minnesota, Morris.
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Category: Godlessness
Posted on: August 24, 2007 1:00 AM, by PZ Myers
Out of curiosity, I'd just like to know … how many recent instances are there of atheists using death threats, threats against family members, and various other kinds of intimidation to discourage Christians from openly professing their beliefs?
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Comments
Uh, so... what if the people who threatened his life are mad about something else?
Posted by: Collin Tierney | August 24, 2007 1:16 AM
if its true, its horrific, but he never told us what they said, he never told us why they were threatening him and you can't even find out what his videos were about because they are gone.
so i'm at a loss as to how this is related to christians bashing him. i mean WTF?
Posted by: qedpro | August 24, 2007 1:19 AM
Me too. Some guy, claims to have been threatened by someone for posting something on YouTube. And that's all the info we're given.
Posted by: Curt Cameron | August 24, 2007 1:22 AM
It seems sensible that it would relate to YouTube. After all, what other forum can exist that would make it possible to not only know his opinion without censorship and without the reservations that would happen in a face-to-face encounter, but also by being online then he could be traceable. It seems he makes a reasonable deduction.
Besides, to be hated by three separate persons would require a more massive forum, and he has in the past been lacking in tact (mentioned here):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iV7AckHjmY
But I am sure that we can agree that this is absolutely disgusting, no matter the case.
Posted by: Gilgamesh | August 24, 2007 1:30 AM
Why the hell is this guy not running for the American border? He appears to be light-skinned enough to get right in the country, and once here, will be at least a little protected, more so for sure than in Mexico. Yes, I understand that my statements above seem to be mildly racist, but they are, in fact, simple realism. The dude looks white and speaks English. If he has any sort of US ID he will have no problem moving across the border. At least here, because he's kinda white, he will be given a modicum of government protection.
Posted by: autumn | August 24, 2007 1:53 AM
"Why the hell is this guy not running for the American border? He appears to be light-skinned enough to get right in the country, and once here, will be at least a little protected, more so for sure than in Mexico. Yes, I understand that my statements above seem to be mildly racist, but they are, in fact, simple realism. The dude looks white and speaks English. If he has any sort of US ID he will have no problem moving across the border. At least here, because he's kinda white, he will be given a modicum of government protection."
I am Irish, with blues eyes, and as white as one can get without being freakin' Johnny Winter, but, despite this, I, while living in Southern California, was stopped, more than once, by the Police, so they could ask me where I was from, and if I was a born US citizen.
Posted by: Lago | August 24, 2007 2:03 AM
I looked up his username on google. They have a cache of his page as of a few days ago:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:3d9N1mus0bcJ:br.youtube.com/user/supexcellency+supexcellency&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a
In case you can't access it, the comments section has some interesting stuff.
August 16, 2007: MuhammadFaysalNawa
remove your videos
if i catched any atheists spreading lies about god i will massacre them off with swords
you are the ignorant ok you are have to read the books on islam and al quran and see Muhammad pbuh life and be like this but you choose to love the society and want pleasure but you will all burn for your ignorant
( Ironically, on MuhammadFaysalNawa's page, he writes: "Who Hijack my religion because islam means the peace but the media and jews say lies about al islam" )
Posted by: tinyfrog | August 24, 2007 2:03 AM
With swords, no less. Classic. That sort of (violent, deadly) hypocrisy is all too common. I love how religion brings people together...
Posted by: Kseniya | August 24, 2007 2:10 AM
Without context it's hard to gauge how relevant the video is to the post.
Focusing only on the post, I'd imagine the frequency and magnitude of intimidation that most groups of atheists could bring to bear is pretty small. Regardless of religious identification, people are capable of some pretty awful acts of harassment. My ballpark guess at mitigating factors are:
* outspoken atheists are far outnumbered by outspoken believers
* there is little to no atheist infrastructure (dedicated meeting places and times, organized groups) in most localities
* there is no atheist canon or doctrine, no equivalent holy books, and, most importantly
* by definition, there are no purportedly divine or infallible messages encouraging violence against believers
Even presuming some person or persons were unbalanced enough to risk the legal and (tacitly or overtly sanctioned) extralegal consequences of threatening or visiting violence upon believers, the conditions (in the US at least) aren't conducive to it. The worst that's going to happen to a believer is that someone in Santa Cruz will shun you or someone in western Massachusetts will glare at you from behind her NPR totebag.
As far as real violence goes, my guess is that it's perpetrated by individuals rather than groups, especially by minors, either self-inflicted or directed against fundamentalist or orthodox parents. And even then, it appears to caused by mental defect, disease, or distress, not from any doctrine or demagogue.
The fantasy of group violence against believers by atheists is the stuff that Concerned Women of America, Eagle Forum, and Family Research Council fund-raising letters are made of. Faster Skeptic, Kill! Kill!
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to hunting unbelievers in Left Behind: Eternal Forces...
Posted by: Bob | August 24, 2007 2:18 AM
Posted by: dorid | August 24, 2007 2:33 AM
... because no religious group would support murderers like James Charles Kopp, right Bob?
Posted by: dorid | August 24, 2007 2:35 AM
wish his other videos were still up
Posted by: Brian W. | August 24, 2007 2:49 AM
Autumn and Lago:
The guy said he lived in NEW Mexico. NEW MEXICO ~= MEXICO. Different countries. Comprhende?
As far as I am aware, the Mexicans have not invaded the US and taken over the state.
Posted by: ChrisC | August 24, 2007 3:34 AM
In other words, they're right: A New Mexican shouldn't have ANY trouble getting into the United States.
*whistles tunelessly*
Posted by: Kseniya | August 24, 2007 3:40 AM
"The guy said he lived in NEW Mexico. NEW MEXICO ~= MEXICO. Different countries. Comprhende?"
No, Mexico City is in Mexico.
Posted by: Brian W. | August 24, 2007 3:46 AM
It's at 3 minutes and 50 seconds, or 2 minutes and 10 seconds from the end that he says "i live in Mexico City. It is definitely not the most secure city..." It only takes a tiny bit of effort to not look like an idiot.
I'm actually not totally convinced that the YouTube videos are why he was called though. I used to have a friend that lived in Mexico City and he had the exact same thing happen to him. That was long before there was such thing as YouTube. And nothing ever came of it. I figure there's not much to do in Mexico and that's how they get their kicks.
Posted by: Brian W. | August 24, 2007 3:56 AM
"Why the hell is this guy not running for the American border? He appears to be light-skinned enough to get right in the country, and once here, will be at least a little protected, more so for sure than in Mexico. Yes, I understand that my statements above seem to be mildly racist, but they are, in fact, simple realism. The dude looks white and speaks English. If he has any sort of US ID he will have no problem moving across the border. At least here, because he's kinda white, he will be given a modicum of government protection."
Or maybe he IS white, Mexican is a nationality, not a race. European immigration to the new world was not confined to North America.
Posted by: Nemesis Online | August 24, 2007 4:44 AM
Well if it ain't real he's a good actor. Kinda upsetting to watch.
Posted by: craig | August 24, 2007 4:58 AM
It sounds like the people harassing him not only did some serious research on him, but did at least enough surveillance of him to know his schedule. Even in the unlikely event that someone would go to all that trouble just to "get their kicks," rather than do it out of genuine malice, it's still damned scary.
Posted by: Lunacrous | August 24, 2007 5:13 AM
I'm sorry. It was just that one time. I probably shouldn't have thrown that Bible in the toilet.
Posted by: Stranger to Himself | August 24, 2007 5:41 AM
As much as I feel for the guy I would hope that outside of the confines of youtube he wasn't quite so melodramatic. In all likelihood it was a baseless threat. Take some precautions and live your life as you as best you can. Since he appears to be an atheistic scientist maybe someone can send him a link to this blog among others.
Posted by: Steve A | August 24, 2007 5:55 AM
Steve A (#22), that's ridiculous.
Supposing what he said is true, that these people knew his address, his place of work, details about his family, including I assume a child in school, this was what I'd consider a *measured* response.
Obviously we don't and probably can't know all the circumstances, but taken at face value, it's pretty odious what was suggested to him about violent repercussions for speaking his mind on a public forum.
Posted by: Gordon S | August 24, 2007 7:00 AM
Reminds me of Arafat.
Posted by: David Marjanović | August 24, 2007 7:20 AM
"Out of curiosity, I'd just like to know ... how many recent instances are there of atheists using death threats, threats against family members, and various other kinds of intimidation to discourage Christians from openly professing their beliefs?"
This is a seriously stupid question. Why don't you just google it and find out.
Posted by: jcw | August 24, 2007 7:26 AM
Duh, obviously they knew he become a weeping bag of pus if they scared him now they have their pay-off.
I'm waiting for the comments about him being a racist for saying the men who called have Mexican accents.
Posted by: k | August 24, 2007 8:14 AM
Steve A: In all likelihood it was a baseless threat.
Death threats where the people issuing the threats have clearly spent a substantial amount of time to discover large amounts of not easily available personal information about a man and his family (his work schedule?????!!!) are something no one should treat as "baseless". Particularlly in a country like Mexico where the legal system is at best disfunctional and at worst actively corrupt.
Personally, if I were living in Mexico City and received threats like that, my family would be on a plane out of the country the next day and I would be behind them just as soon as I could break loose of leases, jobs etc.
Posted by: Benjamin Franz | August 24, 2007 8:17 AM
Why, just this morning I saw someone wearing a cross and assaulted them mercilessly for it.
Wait. No, I didn't.
Posted by: Mike P | August 24, 2007 8:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7gl4DohguM
Posted by: wildlifer | August 24, 2007 8:54 AM
It was a very moving video but I couldn't help wondering if he was acting. My bullshit meter was going off. But then I have it on a very sensitive setting today.
Posted by: Lana | August 24, 2007 9:23 AM
Ha ha, check this out!!!
http://img207.imageshack.us/...
Posted by: Penisman
Because, see, Jews all have big noses, so this is funny because this animal has a big nose too! Ha ha.
Posted by: Encolpius | August 24, 2007 9:25 AM
I'm just wondering why he's so pissed at YouTube. If he really feels his life is in danger, he should contact the proper authorities. YouTube probably has little jurisdiction in Mexico or New Mexico. What is he expecting them to do? Although, the video was upsetting if true. But he does a lousy job of detailing anything, which makes me think it might be bullshit...
Posted by: Loc | August 24, 2007 9:34 AM
"Death threats where the people issuing the threats have clearly spent a substantial amount of time to discover large amounts of not easily available personal information about a man and his family (his work schedule?????!!!) are something no one should treat as "baseless"."
=-=-=-=-=
"Baseless" only in the sense that I find it extremely unlikely that they have gone to those lengths. He may well have been phoned up (something which isn't too difficult to orchestrate) but the suggestion that three Mexican men have been stalking him and his family seems highly improbable. Maybe I'm too skeptical but if threatened my instincts certainly wouldn't tell me to make another video detailing these threats. I wouldn't be surprised to see "supexcellency" surface on youtube again.
Posted by: Steve A | August 24, 2007 9:49 AM
PZ, I really wish you had given some specific context for this video. I kept waiting to hear him explain that he was an atheist, or a scientist, or a political cartoonist, or -- something. Who is he? He had "subscribers." To what? Name of organization?
For all anyone can tell from watching this Farewell Address, this guy's a creationist who made home made but effective UTube videos on Intelligent Design, and the science establishment is now coming after him (and Ben Stein was holding the camera.)
Posted by: Sastra | August 24, 2007 9:55 AM
It's a sad truth that a great many people have seen their families massacred and their livelihoods destroyed by the irrational opposition. This applies far beyond religion and atheism. This touches on the history of unions, suffrage, slavery and most other political stances that were once unpopular. Don't martyr the guy as if he is Giordano Bruno. He got three scary phone calls. Occasionally, the cause you fight for is worth more than your own life and the lives of those you associate with. You move. You hide. You change your name. You do whatever you can to keep fighting, even if it is on the sad sack medium of YouTube. You don't just puss out, pull the videos that may well represent the only worthwhile thing you've done in your life and go back to being a religious closet case. If you have the balls to post your views online in a forum where anyone can view them, with your face visible and the city you live in displayed clearly in your profile, you should also be willing to accept the predictable response from those that disagree. Part though I may from PZ, he could have very well posted about being a Pittsburg Steelers fan and left a calling card from Cleveland and got a similar response. In summation, stand up for what you believe in and accept the consequences or don't stand up at all. You make us all look bad by tucking your tail between your legs and fleeing from the only reason we know who the fuck you are in the first place.
Posted by: Hepatitis_B_Good | August 24, 2007 10:02 AM
I'm one of his YouTube friends. He made a lot of videos, mostly about ATHEISM. His other videos were about psychology (he's a psychologist), philosophy, and general life topics, innocuous stuff. (I doubt militant psychologists are threatening his life.) But he had begun to talk more about Mexico City where he lives. Perhaps someone didn't like Mexico City being connect with atheism.
I've been one of his subscribers from the beginning; I've seen all his videos. So, I in my humble opinion he is NOT acting. When I started to watch this video I had the sound off on my computer. I immediately saw the fear in his eyes. Many of his friends are deeply concerned.
Thank you PZ for posting this video.
Posted by: MarcusA | August 24, 2007 10:10 AM
The man in this video, his online name is Johnny. He is a post-graduate physchology student from Mexico City, where he was born and raised. He is also a popular YouTube atheist.
Some people may remember a few month ago when it was Richard Dawkins' birthday celebration, several people made videos wishing him the best. This gentlemen was one of them. And his video was featured on Dawkins' website.
Posted by: MarcusA | August 24, 2007 10:21 AM
"how many recent instances are there of atheists using death threats, threats against family members, and various other kinds of intimidation to discourage Christians from openly professing their beliefs?"
Ummmm...have you heard of a little nation called China. Juussstttttt a few Christians imprisoned/murdered there each year for professing their beliefs.
Posted by: Dr T | August 24, 2007 10:50 AM
What H_B_G said.
The dude needs to grow a pair.
Since we no longer have access to his vids, I have to wonder if fakesagan is correct in his portrayal of sup, and if he was truely non-empathetic to the plight of the poor in Mexico.
Though they do all sound like a bunch of drama queens.
Posted by: wildlifer | August 24, 2007 11:12 AM
Dr T.
There's a difference between government oppression and the intimidation
and threats by private citizens.
It's not called the ATHEIST REPUBLIC OF CHINA.
Posted by: Steve_C | August 24, 2007 12:11 PM
Since everyone seems to be geography crazy here, Mexico is a part of North America. Technically Central America is also part of the continent called North America. Perhaps you should say European immigration to the New World was not confined to British and French colonies?
Posted by: Pygmy Loris | August 24, 2007 12:27 PM
Steve_C,
Are you kidding? Is the government of China made up of its citizens or are computers or cyborgs doing the things Dr T mentioned. Christians persecute atheists, atheists persecute Christians,on a daily basis. Get over it.
Posted by: jcw | August 24, 2007 12:33 PM
I don't think the Chinese people are atheist.
THey may be antichristian... but atheist? Got a survey you want to show me?
Posted by: Steve_C | August 24, 2007 12:45 PM
And I said "private citizens"
Posted by: Steve_C | August 24, 2007 12:47 PM
Count me among the people whose "drama queen" detector went off.
I don't know anything about this guy beyond what I've read here, so I admit this is an unfair snap judgment.
Nontheless, if credible threats were being made on my life - and my family's - I don't think my first response would be to post a weepy video to YouTube. Or my second, third, or fourth through twenty-seventh responses, inclusive. Maybe that's just me.
Posted by: K. Signal Eingang | August 24, 2007 1:06 PM
No.
Posted by: wildlifer | August 24, 2007 1:06 PM
What H_B_G said.
The dude needs to grow a pair.
Since we no longer have access to his vids, I have to wonder if fakesagan is correct in his portrayal of sup, and if he was truely non-empathetic to the plight of the poor in Mexico.
Though they do all sound like a bunch of drama queens.
Please. That kind of machismo sickens me. As if you wouldn't do anything in your power, while in a foreign country, to protect the welfare of your family and yourself. If you received a phone call detailing your information, the information of your parents, the name of your child's school, your wife's place of work et cetera that you wouldn't take precautions? It seems rather reasonable to comply in such a situation. As much as I love logic and reason these things are not in need of anyone to defend them vociferously for people to realize their effectiveness at determining truth.
Posted by: ChrisD | August 24, 2007 1:09 PM
not to say that there are not fundies in Mexico, but there is a strong anti-clerical element in Mexico and has been for a long time.
there is as has been mentioned a corrupt legal system including but not limited to the police.
If news reports are correct (how to tell?)there is a lot of crime in Mexico City including kidnapping and extortion.
So here we have a "light skinned" college student (not a poor peasant farmer) who has plenty of access to high tech equipment and the internet. He just might be worth targeting with threats and /or action to try to get money as a result. There are I have heard in news reports business men who were subjected to such action and were forced to leave the country after repeated threats and extortion.
It is not easy to judge what is going on in this country and even more difficult to tell what is going on in a foreign country. What ever is the truth of this story in saddens me and makes me angry.
Posted by: uncle frogy | August 24, 2007 1:10 PM
...
...
Describing an accent as "Mexican" could easily be a racist-type slur in the U.S., but if he lives in Mexico, it's more probably just a way of saying it sounded to him like it was somebody local.
This did NOT sound or appear faked to me.
And the context of the events, that business about knowing so much about his private life, that doesn't even sound like a private effort. It sounds like somebody powerful, probably with government connections. This is one of the reasons I just absolutely hate the idea of commingling religion and government.
Responding to Hepatitis_B_Good in comment #34: In the fantasy world of my courageous imagination, I too wish he'd said "Okay, you assholes, bring it on! You might kill me, but you're not going to shut me up!"
But one of the lessons here for me is this: In the real world, the world of real torture and murder and real threats against families, of intimidation against people thinking free thoughts ... too much of the time it really does work.
If most of us were faced with the choice of shutting up and moving or having our families murdered, we'd probably decide to shut up and move.
But who says this is forever? There's always later, and this guy might be back. Even if he isn't, his last gift is a powerful cautionary tale for the rest of us: Even in the modern world, this is what some of us might well face as we continue to think our own free thoughts. Every time a religious person tells you that "Oh, all that torture and witch-burning and stuff, that was long ago. We've evolved past that." ... well, here's a data point that says that's not exactly the case.
...
Ahem. And duh.
...
...
Posted by: Hank Fox | August 24, 2007 1:19 PM
Steve_C,
Point taken. From what I could find over half of the Chinese population(59%) considers itself non religious, though how many are atheists is up to debate. I'm pretty sure one could make an argument that some of the persecution in China of Christians and others, by the way, is being taken up by private citizens who are atheists.
I still stand by my overall point, however, that Christians persecute atheists and atheists persecute Christians on a daily basis.
Posted by: jcw | August 24, 2007 2:13 PM
Saying that someone has a Mexican accent is in no way a racist statement. Native Spanish-speaking Mexicans have an identifiable accent (and likely variations within that accent that are prevalent in different regions within Mexico); such is the case for every language. Would it be racist to say that someone had an English accent, or a Brooklyn accent?
Posted by: J Myers | August 24, 2007 2:59 PM
I have been subscribed to this young man's youtube channel for a while, and from what it seems I think this is sincere.
However, the "youtube atheist community" has become known for a significant degree of drama, and the threats to him may simply have been an extension of this. I hope this is the case, as it would be sad to see someone actually harmed for posting opinionated video blogs.
Posted by: prelevent | August 24, 2007 4:23 PM
I don't call it "machismo" to stand up for one's beliefs in the face of threats and intimidation. Even removing his videos doesn't seem to make him any safer, if they already have all of that information.
Posted by: wildlifer | August 24, 2007 5:15 PM
how soon you all forget...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanawha_County_textbook_controversy
Posted by: bug_girl | August 24, 2007 7:53 PM
The guy who said "the dude needs to grow a pair" pissed me off so much, I wrote about Kanawha in more detail:
http://membracid.wordpress.com/2007/08/24/creationist-death-threats-part-2/
It's really easy to spout brave BS online, but when YOU are the one getting the phone calls, and notes under your windshield, it's a little different. Especially if you have a family.
These people truly believe they will be rewarded for killing evilutionists and athiests. All you have to do is look at the *celebration* of "Paul Hill Days" this year for an example.
They aren't all going to act on the threats, but enough of them do that they should be taken seriously.
Posted by: bug_girl | August 24, 2007 11:23 PM
It seems like the video's been taken down... unless its just my browser.
Posted by: Leukocyte | August 25, 2007 12:36 AM
Posted by: wildlifer | August 25, 2007 2:44 AM
The video has been removed. Darn it
Posted by: QueenoftheHarpies | August 25, 2007 10:55 AM
Here's a edited "tribute" copy (there are several others):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVh-0fiD69k
Posted by: wildlifer | August 25, 2007 11:03 AM
wildlifer, if that's a true story and your actions were justified, then props to you. Though, in this particular case, if supexcellency was told to remove his videos or the callers would take action, I can't criticize his choice.
One question.... shouldn't your handle be "wildmonth-and-a-halfer"?
Posted by: J Myers | August 25, 2007 9:43 PM
LOL ... I thought I was being smart and refused to talk to the cops w/o an attorney (especially the next morning when I found myself sitting across from a detective from homicide) .... I didn't know it would be 15 days before I would get one appointed and then another 25 before the preliminary. The guy lived, but lost ~40 lbs (off the 'roids) and they inserted a filter to catch possible blood clots. He testified more or less that he was minding his own business and I attacked him, contradicting the three witnesses who testified prior to him.
As to supexellancy, he never said they demanded he remove his vids, but even if they did, I still wouldn't give in, but would initiate protective measures.
Posted by: wildlifer | August 26, 2007 1:55 PM