…and this is a 
Wow
Category: Academics • Godlessness • Local
Posted on: August 30, 2007 10:04 PM, by PZ Myers
We had our very first meeting of UMM Campus Atheists, Skeptics, and Humanists tonight. About two dozen people had expressed interest before, so we expected, optimistically, about 20 people to show up. We got there a little early, and people were waiting for us … and then our 20 were there, and then more, and then more, and then more. I had to keep going up to the counter to tell them we were going to have to order a few more pizzas.
Final tally: 60 students showed up. We basically took over the whole restaurant.
Skatje Myers and Collin Tierney are the co-chairs, and here they are addressing the mob.
They did a good job. Everyone settled on a meeting time (Thursday, 7:00 every week — we'll see if that's sustainable) and took suggestions for events and speakers and so forth. I'm afraid there was one universal call for one particular speaker to be brought in: RICHARD DAWKINS. It might take a bit more than a bake sale to raise the speaking fees and travel expenses for that one.
If Dawkins ever gets tired of Oxford, I think he'd have standing room audiences every night as he hobo'ed around the country. There was huge demand for his point of view. We also had a contingent of philosophers there; they might have wanted him to come so they could have a good argument.
The attendees like the Out Campaign, too. Here we are posing with our snazzy t-shirts — there was a call for a bulk order of scarlet A shirts. I'll have to see what we can do about that (hmmm…maybe they can stuff Richard Dawkins in with the order!)
I was very impressed. Maybe Collin and Skatje are just phenomenal organizers, but I suspect there is also a lot of pent-up demand for more godlessness out here in the rural Midwest, just where you might not expect it.
Politics
Comments
I love the CASH acronym. The PR bits write themselves:
"You Need CASH!"
"Thursday Night CASH!"
"Time to CASH In!"
I suppose the exclamation points are optional.
Of course, it would be provocative to tease people with "CASH or Christ: Which Do You Want?"
Posted by: Zeno | August 30, 2007 10:10 PM
We need to have something like that over here at SCSU.
Posted by: August pamplona | August 30, 2007 10:10 PM
Can Richard Dawkins call in and be put on speaker phone? Fewer cakes to sell that way...
Posted by: Mena | August 30, 2007 10:11 PM
Awesome turnout! I have to wonder how many atheists were walking around in the closet back when I attended University. I knew that I wasn't alone, but I can't (or at least couldn't) imagine that it was anything like the size of the UMM CASH crowd.
Posted by: The Science Pundit | August 30, 2007 10:19 PM
Wow. That is a stunning turnout. I am immensely impressed. I almost wish I were back in school just so I could join in.
Nah. Not really. I'll just have to find (or start) a group like that around here.
Posted by: Evan | August 30, 2007 10:28 PM
The other thing you have to understand is that UMM is a small university, about 1900 students. This is the kind of turnout I'd expect at one of the major Christian organizations.
Posted by: PZ Myers | August 30, 2007 10:36 PM
That's fantastic! Several students here at UT Austin are hoping to revive the UT atheist group. We have scores of religious groups on campus, and it would be nice to have at least one group for secular/non-religious students.
Anyway, it's wonderful to see such a great turnout.
Posted by: atxcats | August 30, 2007 10:39 PM
Wow! The whole population of Morris turned out!
Seriously, though. That's great. The next challenge will be getting them to come back.
Posted by: Epistaxis | August 30, 2007 10:41 PM
So PZ, how much did you lay down in pizza fees?
Also, dunno if you've been in any of these campus organizations before, but the turnout does fall off quite a bit once the hat goes around for dues. I was in various clubs throughout my stint in uni, and inevitably by October when dues were needed, people would just stop showing up.
Hope you have better luck than we did!
On another note, perhaps you could join in with a few other campus groups and pool to get high-priced speakers. Perhaps the Campus Crusade for Christ wants somebody to heckle...
Posted by: Jeremy | August 30, 2007 10:41 PM
Ausgezeichnet!
I'm still kicking myself that I came out too late in my college career to help get something like CASH started at Dartmouth... :-(
Posted by: Aaron | August 30, 2007 10:47 PM
Maybe things like this will start to show the "Benedict Arnold Atheists" the light...
Nah. Never happen.
Posted by: Steve LaBonne | August 30, 2007 10:50 PM
Wow. Wonderful!
Posted by: Hank Fox | August 30, 2007 10:58 PM
Wow!! Congratulations you guys. That is really awesome.
Posted by: Stacy | August 30, 2007 11:03 PM
Congratulations.
Posted by: RCP | August 30, 2007 11:09 PM
Fantastic!
Posted by: Ron | August 30, 2007 11:16 PM
Congratulations to the great organizing. Good luck with the continued success for that group.
Posted by: Eva Young | August 30, 2007 11:16 PM
Well Dawkins has been to Minnesota.
Back in the 90s when I was in grad school at the U (Saint Paul Campus), he came and gave several talks. I even managed to wangle my way into an only-for-faculty-and-a-couple-of-Post-Docs dinner at the Crumpled Aluminum Can Art Museum.
Thus, it isn't completely out of the question that you could lure him back. You could offer to show him the Kensington Runestone.
Posted by: Hank | August 30, 2007 11:16 PM
Word to Collin: Unless you're auditioning for the second coming of the Culture Club; olive green, turquoise, and scarlet DO NOT go together.
Otherwise, congrats! Getting 60 college kids together without the promise of beer is frakkin' incredible!
Posted by: DaveX | August 30, 2007 11:19 PM
I prefer CASH to tithing!
Posted by: Simon G. | August 30, 2007 11:21 PM
An event like this at a pretty small university makes me really itch to form a similar group at UW-Milwaukee. No clue if I could do it by myself (very likely not), but I am quite interested in seeing if a few more people would like to go in now.
Posted by: Callandor | August 30, 2007 11:21 PM
Fan-bloody-tastic! It's nice to watch the world change, even a little bit, and know that you had something to do with it. Watch out, PZ, I think you may be creating a dynasty, and I mean that in a good way. Skatje and CASH rocks!
Posted by: Jazmin | August 30, 2007 11:27 PM
Congrats on the turnout !!!
Posted by: Ben Dreidel | August 30, 2007 11:29 PM
I think it was something like eight pizzas. 200 buckaroos including the tip, which some of the upper-class philosophy guys pitched in on.
Posted by: Collin Tierney | August 30, 2007 11:31 PM
Congrats on the great turn out. It's encouraging to think that so many students showed an interest!
Posted by: dorid | August 30, 2007 11:31 PM
DaveX @ #18: The LAST thing anyone needs is a fashion police citation. Go for it, Collin!
Posted by: Jazmin | August 30, 2007 11:32 PM
I want to point out that C.A.S.H. was first used by Frank Zappa to describe his mostly fictional Church of American Secular Humanism.
conceptual continuity must be maintained.
Posted by: Todd | August 30, 2007 11:32 PM
SO appreciative of the work done to implement this by Skatje and Collin, and of the endorsement and advertisement of this by PZ, to reach out to others with this similar result to mine of their thinking processes.
Letting others know that they are not alone in their views of the world: a good thing.
Posted by: cyan | August 30, 2007 11:33 PM
Bravo to you all. Hearing this gives me hope for our collective futures!
Posted by: Village Green | August 30, 2007 11:38 PM
I'm sure that Richard Dawkins could be persuaded to appear by video link as a favour for his old mate P-Zed. Cheaper than a flight and surely the appearance fee could be dropped given the free advertising that you are doing with those t shirts. And you could always email him a pizza.
Posted by: KiwiInOz | August 30, 2007 11:45 PM
"I'm sure that Richard Dawkins could be persuaded to appear by video link as a favour for his old mate P-Zed. Cheaper than a flight and surely the appearance fee could be dropped given the free advertising that you are doing with those t shirts. And you could always email him a pizza."
Sir, it isn't his actual expertise we want. That can be found in a multitude of books, articles, documentaries and such. It's actually his autograph and a picture of him standing next to you that costs 50,000.
Posted by: Collin Tierney | August 30, 2007 11:49 PM
Off-topic:
Mother Teresa an atheist! Woo-Hoo!
New York Times:
"In my soul I feel just that terrible pain of loss," she wrote in 1959, "of God not wanting me -- of God not being God -- of God not existing." According to the book, this inner turmoil, known by only a handful of her closest colleagues, lasted until her death in 1997.
Posted by: CalGeorge | August 30, 2007 11:50 PM
Wow...our greater Houston Atheist meetups at best pull in about 37-some-odd people on any given night. That's impressive!
I never had the guts to hang out with the Atheist & Agnostic Student Association at my Alma Mater, Texas A&M. The people I did hang out with, though--MSC Nova, MSC Cephid Variable, Aggie Cinema, Society for Creative Anachronism, German Club, Russian Club...were all thoroughly secular with next to zero religious people of any stripe. The AASA did put out some funny t-shirts on "Why Beer is better than Jesus", and I had to respect their dogged determination, always putting out their sign week after week, despite having it vandalized, stolen, etc.
While few people I knew openly called themselves atheist, very few people I knew ever took religion remotely seriously either...and religion was never a topic that held much interest to me or my closest associates at my undergrad alma mater. I guess in those days (late 80s & the early 1990s) the ardently religious were readily identifiable, regularly mocked, and generally dismissed...so I didn't feel a pressing need to belong to and hang out with groups of other self-identified atheists the way that I DO feel that need and enjoy the company today. The last time I visited College Station I was bowled over by how much Gawd-talk dominated the most casual conversation, and taken seriously. It made me gag, and I wondered if I'd get a form of eye strain from constantly rolling them in response to a lot of the ridiculous sh*t I kept hearing all around me. TAMU has always been more conservative/religious than UT-Austin, but the TAMU of today is way more so than the TAMU of my day.
I would probably have had a rougher time of it going there today than I did back in the day. I had considered transferring to UT-Austin even back then. Today I probably would've just skipped out on A&M altogether and gone to UT-Austin from the get-go.
I'm a little shocked to hear that UT-Austin lacks an active atheist/agnostic group--no offense but I assumed that'd be par for the course in Ms O'hare's former home town! Good luck with re-organizing! Is that creepy Scientology place still on the Drag? I have to assume so. *shudder*
(Even though I'm an Aggie--I freakin' love Austin.)
Again, PZ, your campus is to be congratulated...what an inspiration!
Posted by: JJR | August 30, 2007 11:55 PM
You might think about having Richard Carrier speak. I don't know what his fees are or anything, but I saw him speak in Ohio once for a humanist convention, and it was really good. You can check out his blog, and I highly recommend his book if you haven't seen it before. He's extremely intelligent, speaks well, and has a sense of humor too (in a nerdy sort of way...).
Posted by: Eric | August 31, 2007 12:13 AM
Oh yeah.. and you can read some of his stuff for free on the Secular Web.
Posted by: Eric | August 31, 2007 12:14 AM
Way to go! Congratulations on the turn out. Great to see so many students showing interest. Best of luck to you this semester as you build your organization! Cheers from Austin, TX!
Posted by: simplicio | August 31, 2007 12:17 AM
I'd like to point out that while I can't speak for everyone there, the inclusion of free pizza in the description of the meeting was a major draw that probably brought in a lot of people who would be faintly curious about the intentions of the group (but not enough to actually attend a meeting) - this certainly was the reason I came.
Posted by: Eli Mayfield | August 31, 2007 12:26 AM
Nice. I like it.
I don't like the shirt though. It's like super-serif. Sans serif is what all the cool kids use. A more minimal design maybe. (Hey I got beavers ready to go to war over it.)
Posted by: TomK | August 31, 2007 12:42 AM
You may not be able to get Richard Dawkins to speak, but we can't get Richard Dawkins, PZ Myers or Christopher Hitchens to speak down here in OZ. Pity the antipodeans.
Posted by: Brian | August 31, 2007 12:45 AM
Nice!
That's very encouraging.
phat
Posted by: phat | August 31, 2007 1:10 AM
I'm not exactly a Dawkins fan-boy, but it seems clear to me that if he owes anybody a favor, it's you, PZ. Here's hoping you can "CASH" it in!
Posted by: Dave Carlson | August 31, 2007 1:39 AM
That is a truly impressive turnout! I guess congrats are in order.
Posted by: Scott Hatfield, OM | August 31, 2007 2:54 AM
Keep a diary for future organizers in other places. Especially note, for the record, just how difficult it is to keep the godless hordes from drifting off into evil pursuits, versus the noble ones. Or note that it's not difficult at all.
A good history, to prevent future errors.
Posted by: Ed Darrell | August 31, 2007 3:24 AM
As an organizer for our local branch of the evil atheist world conspiracy, www.atheist.net, I can tell you about the roadblocks to organizing atheist events.
Since atheists do not believe in morals, they cannot be trusted. We generally demand payment up front, say 15$ down payment to reserve a place in one of our orgies. If you don't show up, then we use your money to buy beer.
This gives new problems as you might imagine. If you cannot trust an atheist, how do you know the one collecting the money doesn't just use it to buy beer, and drink it before the event?
We have come trhrough these problems now, thanks to some very nice HA bikers who were very good with baseball bats, and the introduction of microchips embedded in the brains of the organizers and tattoos on our brow and right hand, we have established the right mixed of survaillance, threatening mental breakdowns and shattered kneecaps.
So my message is, do not give up hope. You can herd cats, and you can get atheists to meet up regulalry and drink Newcastle Brown Ale or Leffe's.
Posted by: Soren | August 31, 2007 3:42 AM
You do realize your daughter is going to end up dating the other co-founder, right?
Posted by: Jonathan | August 31, 2007 4:12 AM
Whereas I suspect there's a lot of pent-up demand for free pizza among students anywhere.
Posted by: SEF | August 31, 2007 4:25 AM
Are you going to use some kind of oxen as your logo? You know, a CASH cow... ;-)
Posted by: Ithika | August 31, 2007 4:39 AM
They already have the A for alpu/aleph/aurochs (= ox)!
Posted by: SEF | August 31, 2007 4:56 AM
When I see that acronym I can't help but think of the New Statesman episode where Rik Mayall's character (the sleazy politician) cons an evangelical Christian woman out of a large donation to "Christian Approach to Society Handbooks". When she complains that the name is too large to fit on the cheque, the response is "oh yes. Well, just put the initials. C.A.S.H."
(I don't think it works any more - I've never tried it - but at the time you could potentially redeem a cheque to cash for actual, er, cash.)
Posted by: jim | August 31, 2007 6:05 AM
The obvious solution: Richard Dawkins impersonators/ tribute artists/ cover bands.
Posted by: ajay | August 31, 2007 7:22 AM
Incredible turnout! Now I'm changing my mind and wanting one of those t-shirts, but I'm afraid I know I wouldn't look half as good as Skatje does in it.
Posted by: Carlie | August 31, 2007 7:30 AM
Not quite so fast. Read the whole article. She ended up wanting to be a bodhisattva -- to be eternally (!) separated from God so that others might not have to be.
Posted by: David Marjanović | August 31, 2007 7:38 AM
Judging by the students I know, you will get a substantial attendance dropoff just as soon as you stop offering the free pizza. I really hope you retain a decent core of the enlightened though :)
Posted by: Maugrim | August 31, 2007 7:52 AM
Hmm... Bizarrely, my first parse of that came out as "enlightened dough". I had to double-check you hadn't really written that. It must just have been my expectation of a punch-line, given the pizza context.
Posted by: SEF | August 31, 2007 8:32 AM
I think you should consider offereing a sacrifical lamb at one of the meetings by getting an IDea Club hack like Hannah Maxson (SP?) or Slimey Sal Cordova to show up would be perfect!
Extra points for the CASH member that makes the Baby Jesus cry first!
ps: Colin - re: Fashionista Police - Eff 'em if they don't like it! I think the Right To Dress Any Damn Way You Want is guaranteed by the Constitution.
Posted by: J-Dog | August 31, 2007 9:16 AM
I want to say congratulations from everyone at the Secular Student Alliance to everyone at UMM CASH. What a wonderful first event!
We created a little piece trumpeting your excellent first meeting on the front page of our website: http://www.secularstudents.org/node/1640
Posted by: August E. Brunsman IV | August 31, 2007 9:18 AM
You've got some generous upperclassmen at UMM, Colin. 'Course, my campus group was ballroom dance, so it was QUITE a bit more expensive to pay for a coach every week than Dawkins once. Talk to the other orgs, I'm sure some group wants to get an atheist there to talk. Make lots of contacts. Campus org is much like politics. Horse-trading and all that.
Glad to see it all come together. Good luck to you, coming from Purdue, even there you'd have support. Give it your best! Good luck!
Posted by: Jeremy | August 31, 2007 9:31 AM
"You do realize your daughter is going to end up dating the other co-founder, right?"
Let's not jump to conclusions. This is a blog, not a tabloid.
Posted by: Collin Tierney | August 31, 2007 9:47 AM
Is there any way for people who aren't local to UMM to donate to CASH's cause?
Posted by: John | August 31, 2007 9:47 AM
"Is there any way for people who aren't local to UMM to donate to CASH's cause?"
We've been thinking about that. Presently, no. We're not sure we'll accept donations because it will mean a lot of filing, taxes, and management, and I don't sign up to be co-chair so I could manage anything. Best case scenario, the government finds a flaw in my poor accounting skills and lands us in Kent Hovind's jail cell.
Posted by: Collin Tierney | August 31, 2007 9:54 AM
Did you read Hitchen's notes from his recent book tour (mostly through the Bible Belt), that his sponsors kept saying he'd get small audiences, but then they'd find that it was standing room only, or that they had to book more events to handle all the people? He said that typically half the audience were people who had thought they were the only atheists in town.
Posted by: Curt Cameron | August 31, 2007 10:10 AM
I know that Richard Dawkins is like the George Clooney of the atheist world but I'm sure there are plenty of other great speakers you could induce. PZ, you should definitely get this group signed up as a student chapter of the Center for Inquiry. They would possibly make some speakers available for your group. Get all the students to become members, it comes with a discounted subscription to Free Inquiry. I think that the Center for Inquiry does good work as an advocate for secularism and rationality. Any chance they can get to announce that they have one more student group, gives them more of a voice.
Posted by: Casey Schmidt | August 31, 2007 10:11 AM
This is great! Are there going to be any of these fundamentalist rallies up in Fridley, MN? PZ, I'll even bring a podium that you can pound on and you can truly scream dogma from the pulpit.
Nothing like a little pseudo-intellectual gathering such as this.
Quick question: who's the fruit with the blue shirt under his A uniform? He looks familiar.
Posted by: Tyrone Baker | August 31, 2007 10:11 AM
I realize this discussion has been had, but I was distracted, and besides, I didn't realize that people would actually start WEARING those t-shirts. God, I hate them. Not only is the logo TERRIBLY designed, there's nothing like a tacky symbol to say "I AM A GROUPTHINK IDIOT." Thoughtful people should not self-identify using logos. It seems monumentally uncreative and not-very-thoughtful-at-all to me.
Posted by: saurabh | August 31, 2007 10:13 AM
"(hmmm...maybe they can stuff Richard Dawkins in with the order!)"
PZ, maybe this really is an Out Campaign.
Last time I saw someone slober over their idol this much my sister was hanging pictures of Joey, Jordan, Danny, Donnie and Jonathan in her room with "Hangin' Tough" playing in the background.
You're an odd duck, PZ.
Posted by: Tyrone Baker | August 31, 2007 10:16 AM
"I realize this discussion has been had, but I was distracted, and besides, I didn't realize that people would actually start WEARING those t-shirts. God, I hate them. Not only is the logo TERRIBLY designed, there's nothing like a tacky symbol to say "I AM A GROUPTHINK IDIOT." Thoughtful people should not self-identify using logos. It seems monumentally uncreative and not-very-thoughtful-at-all to me."
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I wasn't planning on wearing it, as all can see with an observation of the blue shirt I wore under it, but it a made a recognizable symbol of leadership. People can think we're "groupthink idiots" all they want -- they are the members of the audience who we would fail to impress no matter what we wore.
Posted by: Collin Tierney | August 31, 2007 10:19 AM
What a phenomenal turn-out! That makes me all warm and tingly.
Posted by: amyg113 | August 31, 2007 10:26 AM
Wow,
Imagine being a member of a club, the horror, the sheepishness of it all.
Get a grip.
Tyrone sounds like another poster, what's that other nic you use?
Posted by: Steve_C | August 31, 2007 10:28 AM
Looks like a Dungeons and Dragons meeting.
You'll never get your message across enlisting friggin' nerds.
PZ, your daughter should be kept in back offices doing paper work for this company/church/whatever of yours. You think you'll impress the people that matter by promoting your message with geeks, dweebs and nerds?
Fuck.
Collin you might be able to work with. But you might need to 'straighten' out his image a bit.
Gotta be realistic too. Say The Cure (or some modern emo-bitch about everything band comes to town). Do you really think half of these kids (including your daughter) will be able to follow through with any commands, if those commands happen to coincide with with a meeting?
PFFT..... please.
Posted by: Tyrone Baker | August 31, 2007 10:33 AM
Coming from a guy who thinks Rush Limbaugh and Metallica are still cool. Ummm, yeah right.
He look everybody it's one of those "cool" conservatives!
Welcome to the blog asshole. Shouldn't you be playing over at Town Hall?
Posted by: Steve_C | August 31, 2007 10:43 AM
I smell parody troll
Posted by: Graculus | August 31, 2007 10:46 AM
Steve, ya dumb fuck.
You find me 12 black (okay - half and half) men that listen to Metallica. Mention Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, PE then we can talk.
And Rush Limbaugh? Please. Shoehorn me into whatever category that makes you happy. Just do it to my face and I knock your whiney ass out. Coward little white boy.
Posted by: Tyrone Baker | August 31, 2007 10:47 AM
See, that's why there's supposed to be a comma in front of "though".
(As you can see, Tyrone, we are geeks and nerds. I am one of perhaps 100 people in the world who have understood the German comma rules, and I've largely understood the -- much different -- English ones, too. Eat that!)
Posted by: David Marjanović | August 31, 2007 10:49 AM
Tyrone Baker: *Groupthink*???
WTF?
SO wearing a (common) shirt at the inaugural meeting of a club indicates groupthink? Are you some kind of weird libertarian activist? Or simply a troll?
Is Pharyngula 'groupthink'? We're all on this same page, typing our comments, and sharing thoughts....
I don't suppose you've ever been part of a club - since that involves some form of conformity. I daresay you find it difficult to make friends, or even operate in society.
Do you wear pants? a dress? Nothing at all?
If pants - is that simply conforming to male stereotypes and enforcing the subjugation of women....
If a dress - are *you* ready to come out?
If nothing - you really *don't* get out much, do you?
You, sir, are an ass.
Posted by: tony | August 31, 2007 10:49 AM
:People can think we're "groupthink idiots" all they want -- they are the members of the audience who we would fail to impress no matter what we wore.
Maybe so, but the ostensible purpose of the Out Campaign is to increase visibility, and to present yourself as a free-thinking individual. I.e., its ONLY purpose is image. If the image is a failure, why stand by it? I suggest you guys make your own t-shirts, and forget about Dawkins'.
Posted by: saurabh | August 31, 2007 10:50 AM
Graculus, you smell your own punk ass trying to be clever. Cuz that's what a punk does.
Posted by: Tyrone Baker | August 31, 2007 10:50 AM
Everyone, please ignore "Tyrone Baker". He's on an Out campaign of his own -- to out himself as a colossal ass. His mission has been accomplished, so don't encourage the poor sap to waste any more time here.
Posted by: PZ Myers | August 31, 2007 10:51 AM
Tyrone, Tyrone, Tyrone. Methinks you doth protest too much. Picking on nerds works maybe through middle school. Then people start growing up and they realize comments like yours are just fine examples of douchebaggery. Have you ever been to a college campus? No one cares if you're a nerd. The people who do really care usually don't have many friends themselves. I suspect this is the lot you cast yourself in with. Well, smell the coffee, sunshine. Your ranting just makes you look stupid.
Posted by: Mike P | August 31, 2007 10:52 AM
(Uh-oh... I'm on my comma trip.)
What, pray tell, is a "blog asshole"?
>duck and cover<
Posted by: David Marjanović | August 31, 2007 10:52 AM
Tony, where did I mention anything about groupthink?
You're confusing me with someone else, because you're a confused little boy.
I'm an ass, because I make women like you cry.
Posted by: Tyrone Baker | August 31, 2007 10:53 AM
Confused lt (<) and gt (>). There go my nerdy 1337 sgillz.
Posted by: David Marjanović | August 31, 2007 10:55 AM
Yeah I listened to PE, 16 years ago. Welcome to the club.
So now you're a "hard" black man who hates atheists?
That's supposed to be scary? Intimidating? Please.
You're still an asshole. Whatever race you are. And I'm sure you're far from "cool'.
Plus your "threats" are not only silly but pathetic. Hey, look a 40 year old guy picking on teenage kids.
Go back to playing Halo or whatever you do in your Mom's basement.
Posted by: Steve_C | August 31, 2007 10:56 AM
Yeah, my punctuation blows. I doubt it'll get better. I type fast and rarely proofread closely. Bad habit, I know.
Posted by: Steve_C | August 31, 2007 10:59 AM
PZ, I really don't care one way or another.
God exists, God doesn't exist. Who cares. I've done enough stuff in my life that if he does exist I ain't going anywhere pleasant.
But I know this, PZ. You are a coward. I've seen your types all over the place. You talk big here. You might even talk big to someone's face - but a cowards a coward. You got sparked a few times when you were a kid and now you're lashing out. You were the kid getting punked in hall ways - and you know what? It's your own fault for it. But now you lash out. You lash out with a quick, arrogant tough. All because you were too weak to handle it the 1st time around. So go cry, you coward. Go cry for all the stuff that happened to your sorry ass. And watch as a man, myself, takes responsibility and owns up to his own. See the difference, but you won't learn anything. You're just a coward old man now, you haven't learned it up until now - why should that change?
Posted by: Tyrone Baker | August 31, 2007 11:02 AM
Hate atheists?
Nope.
I hate wise asses that think they're different from the object of their criticism.
Posted by: Tyrone Baker | August 31, 2007 11:04 AM
Tyrone: Project much? You've described your own behavior to a T.
You talk big here. You might even talk big to someone's face - but a cowards a coward.
Talking awfully big, aren't you?
You got sparked a few times when you were a kid and now you're lashing out. You were the kid getting punked in hall ways - and you know what? It's your own fault for it. But now you lash out. You lash out with a quick, arrogant tough. All because you were too weak to handle it the 1st time around.
From the person who spending his time picking on young adults who are actually trying to get things done. Your the one lashing out - does this mean, by your own description, you were the one getting beat up in hallways?
Go cry, Tyrone.
Posted by: Nerull | August 31, 2007 11:07 AM
Tyrone,
What are you taking responsibility for? I can't for the life of me figure out what you're talking about, and I don't think you know any more than I do. You sound too sincere to be a parody, but at the same time, you're acting like a one-dimensional cliche. I don't really mean to feed your ego cuz you've clearly overstayed your welcome, but I'm at an absolute loss as to what your point is, if you have one at all.
Posted by: Mike P | August 31, 2007 11:17 AM
Zzzzz. Maaaaan, these douche bags are boring.
No more troll feed for you.
Posted by: Steve_C | August 31, 2007 11:18 AM
But, but...what will I do with my A-labeled pants, shirts, shoes, shorts, and ties? My monogrammed towels? That giant A painted on each side of my house? My custom car in the shape of a swooshy A?
Look, saurabh, it's a couple of t-shirts. That's all. Don't get carried away with the deep significance of it all. The big A is nothing but an occasional token, not a whole commitment to the worship of all things Dawkins. We wore it because this was the first meeting of a group of people who didn't know each other at all well, and it was a way to mark the organizers so everyone would know who to ask questions of.
I also think it's good to have some kind of marker and some kind of organization. We are all dependent on one another and we all make public commitments of one kind or another to various institutions -- it doesn't mean we've become slaves to the symbol. Perhaps you've been misled by the bizarre commitment of some other groups to their symbols, whether it's ten commandments or the flag or the constitution, but that doesn't mean every symbol is so overbearing. The shirts are nice. People can wear them, or they can skip them. They can design their own little logo, or they can avoid symbols altogether. We don't care.
But this attitude that atheists must be consistently and completely unjoined in even the most tenuous way is ludicrous and unrealistic. People don't work that way. It's a kind of self-defeating self-hatred that the other sides love to encourage, and it's the kind of attitude that makes it difficult for freethinkers to increase their clout. We can't even wear a common t-shirt now and then lest the purists express their outrage? Pathetic.
Posted by: PZ Myers | August 31, 2007 11:19 AM
Tyrone:
Wow. I think my irony meter just blew up.
Posted by: Dan | August 31, 2007 11:19 AM
Masrk,
My money says Skatke was raised to be an intelligent rationalist, who then decided on her own she was an atheist.
It's not PZ's fault that many parents raise their children to be stupid.
Posted by: Mike P | August 31, 2007 11:22 AM
PZ,
I'm not getting carried away with the significance of it, and I DON'T think the t-shirts mean a whole lot to those who wear them, and I don't think they indicate any actual groupthink; my point is, rather, how they will be *construed*, which is the intended purpose of the Out Campaign. There's already an effort to paint Dawkins, Hitchens, etc., as the leaders of some new atheist evangelical movement. Why feed into that?
You say: "We are all dependent on one another and we all make public commitments of one kind or another to various institutions..." But what institution are you talking about, here? A commitment to institutions is one of the major failings of religion I'd think we'd like to avoid, and eschewing the appearance of that sort of commitment would seem to me to be a worthy goal for (what amounts to) a marketing campaign. When you're critiquing a cultish organization, it behooves you, I think, to be savvy about your own appearances. For appearance's sake.
Posted by: saurabh | August 31, 2007 11:34 AM
I have a "Joss Whedon is My Master Now" T-shirt, but that doesn't mean I'm slavish or claim that he can do no wrong. I just think Firefly was really cool.
So, A-shirts, atom symbols, abstract IPU icons, FSM shirts? Go right ahead. I may get one when it doesn't significantly increase my perceived risk of severe beatings. I live in Texas, after all.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | August 31, 2007 11:41 AM