…and this is a 
A Very new kid on the block!
Category: Open Thread
Posted on: September 14, 2007 4:29 PM, by Bright_Lights
Hello again, it has not even been a day yet, but I feel that I should quick post something. Some of the comments from my previous blog have pointed out interesting ideas as to the correlation between protein folding and memory storage.
Proteins inside neurons would work well in storing and possibly managing information, but they don't work quickly enough and I suppose it would be fairly difficult to research proteins in the hundreds of thousands of specialized neurons. I was also informed that much of the "protein hypothesis" is old news that was torpedoed in the 60's for the "synapse hypothesis" due to lack of technology to model such interactions. However, the "protein hypothesis" has reared its head once again in recent years and (I feel) is worth looking into further, although it may still be hard to conceptualize. Also, it was pretty insulting to say that little research has been done in this field and that Allan Pack is the sole researcher still working on this. Many researchers are still busy working away on this subject (don't believe everything MPR tells ya').
I haven't had a chance to read some of the research recommended to me yet as I am still just a kid (a fact that some have pointedly stated to me, thanks for the insight) and still have a life before graduate school (i.e. I run Cross Country, talk to girls, and watch movies outside of studying). Continue to post further links on this please! I will do my best to be more to the point (shorter blogs) spell correctly (sorry Myers) and stop feeding you heathens further fuel for the spiritual flames of damnation :P (I'm a Christian, get over it!). Thanks for the comments, continue to inform me on how I can do a better job at this.
This is the last time I'll say it and will truly stick to science after this, but I can't resist, God bless!
~Bright Lights
Physical Science
Comments
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as a non scientist I was always under the impression that talking to girls actually lost you a position with most Graduate Biology Programs!!
Posted by: Orwell is dead | September 14, 2007 5:00 PM
"I am still just a kid (a fact that some have pointedly stated to me, thanks for the insight)"
Dude, you just totally punked most of the commenters to your previous post.
Posted by: AnthonyH | September 14, 2007 5:02 PM
Good recovery, Bright Lights. Nicely done. I look forward to seeing more from you.
Posted by: Wicked Lad | September 14, 2007 5:04 PM
Just one thing: it's a blog post; the blog is the whole thing (short for "web log").
Apart from that, keep up the good work. So far, the protein hypothesis sounds very vague to me, but I'm here to learn!
Posted by: David Marjanović | September 14, 2007 5:05 PM
As someone who teaches college, I'm going to say this: No you are not a kid. You may still be ignorant (and who as a college student wasn't?) but you're not a kid.
As someone who's celebrating his first 39th birthday tomorrow, I'm going to say this: kids these days.
Posted by: MAJeff | September 14, 2007 5:06 PM
God bless each and every one of us! Now I must go to bed, my proteins need folding.
Posted by: frodo | September 14, 2007 5:10 PM
Eh, look on the upside: As long as you're willing to give up a hypothesis if it's shown it doesn't work, choosing the less-researched version of two plausible possibilities may well put you on the fast track to big discoveries =)
Posted by: Adam Cuerden | September 14, 2007 5:13 PM
This one's got moxy. If he can find a more manly screen name for himself, stop signing his posts with that sweet little tilde, and cut back on the exclaimation points and smileys, he won't be that bad.
Posted by: Dustin | September 14, 2007 5:14 PM
Because I'm helpful, MST3K 820 (Space Mutiny) supplies a nice list:
http://www.mst3kinfo.com/ward_e/List820.html
And you could blow your homework off and watch:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8590533394044637016
Posted by: Dustin | September 14, 2007 5:20 PM
"still have a life before graduate school (i.e. I run Cross Country, talk to girls, and watch movies outside of studying)"
I'm torn between saying that you'd better get all the "having a life" our of your system before grad school, cause that can't last, and saying good for you.
Posted by: Becca | September 14, 2007 5:24 PM
God bless you too Bright Lights. You played these smarty pants big shots like a pro. You da man. This is dedicated to you my friend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRJj9SJJuok
God bless you all, and good night.
Posted by: 386sx | September 14, 2007 5:28 PM
Bon Courage, you returned!
"don't believe everything NPR tells ya"
I would say; Don't believe anything you hear and only half what you see. Accept input with an open mind, investigate the evidence, then decide for yourself, remembering always that "gut feelings" are reliable only 50% of the time in a two way choice.
You would be amazed at the numer of hoaxes PZ has posted here and a good number of we skeptics have accepted them. On the other hand some of the others usually reveal the truth.
After your post I am now going to have to find out what I can about protein folding...
Posted by: Sailor | September 14, 2007 5:29 PM
Physician, heal thyself.
Posted by: MAJeff | September 14, 2007 5:32 PM
I'm glad you're back. You posted, made a few errors, got blasted for it, but came back smiling. That's cool.
When you're publishing your research in a peer reviewed journal that ability of yours to take the criticism and keep a good attitude will serve you well.
Posted by: Greg B | September 14, 2007 5:35 PM
What, PZ, did Disney take over this site or something?!? Think of your reputation, man!
And on a serious note, lest I end up on the Other List, let me say that I think this is a grand idea of yours, PZ. The excitement level is already measurably higher. Your students don't know how lucky they are to have a mentor like you.
Why, even I remember life before graduate school. At least people tell me I had a life. I remember me and Euclid playing volleyball with the Pythagoras twins... Those were the days.
Posted by: Doc Bill | September 14, 2007 5:35 PM
I'm a Christian, get over it!...God bless!
The humility is killing me.
Posted by: evilchemistry | September 14, 2007 5:38 PM
Bright: Nice response to your previous post, now I'm sitting on the edge of my seat, waiting to hear about these proteins. I suppose I could Pubmed this topic, myself, but I'm lazy, and I have other things to look up, anyway. ;)
Oi! Orwell! Talking to girls is a good thing in the biological sciences: it's the one branch of science with a fairly significant population of female scientists. Unlike computer science or, um, I dunno, physics. We rock!
Having a life, on the other hand, that's frowned upon in graduate school. And, even if it were smiled upon, who has time for a life?
Posted by: Inky | September 14, 2007 5:48 PM
I'm confused? Male or female? Your demeanor is female (handle, verbage, smilies, etc), but you say "talking to girls" like it's a sexual thing.
Got any light to shed on this? I'm not trying to be mean, it's just that I was very, very surprised to see that mention of talking to girls and it's implications...
Posted by: Fedaykin | September 14, 2007 5:49 PM
dear superstitious,
maybe in your next bit of writing you can enlighten us all about the function of the soul, as the brain has taken over everything previously attributed to it.
Posted by: darwinfish | September 14, 2007 5:55 PM
Geez... I use the tilde sometimes when I sign off. Like this:
~ K.
Does that make me immature? Or do I get cut some slack cuz I'm still an undergrad too?
As for Dustin's list of manly names, I like this one:
Bolt Vanderhuge
Posted by: Kseniya | September 14, 2007 6:00 PM
Oh come on... Bright_Lights? Quick Google turned up this: Bright Lights is a discipleship group to train young ladies in godliness.
What is a "bright light"?
It is a girl who knows how to respond just right to people and circumstances. It is a girl who has Biblical convictions and commitments, and is able to go through her teenage years strong for the Lord without stumbling as many do. It is a girl who touches the lives of others by her servant's spirit and the message of eternal life through Jesus Christ. God wants bright lights! There is a great need for more of them in this generation of darkness.
Posted by: AlanWCan | September 14, 2007 6:05 PM
Punch Rockgroin is more manly, if you're loking for manly.
Posted by: JoeB | September 14, 2007 6:08 PM
For some reason I really identify with the name Fist Rockbone.
Yes, I am single. Why do you ask?
Posted by: Brownian | September 14, 2007 6:11 PM
Fedaykin, you know, when a mommy and another mommy loves each other very much...
Or, more seriously, grow out of your heterosexism.
Posted by: Therese Norén | September 14, 2007 6:21 PM
Bright Lights wrote:
It would be nanotechnology. It could be modeled on a computer.
The "synapse hypothesis" is now part of how neural nets are conceived and neural nets work so well they have practical uses outside biology in artificial intelligence research. Any new theory is going to have to either add to the power of neural nets or be as useful in AI research.
Here's how far the computer models have gotten:
http://bluebrain.epfl.ch/
Posted by: Norman Doering | September 14, 2007 6:24 PM
Hope you become a good neurobiologist--or whatever it is you decide to do. I'm just 15 and taking my first biology course, so I don't know much about this kind of thing, obviously. Try to ignore any of the mean comments that might be posted, people tend to be surprisingly stupid for some reason, even on Pharyngula.
Posted by: Alex | September 14, 2007 6:26 PM
I hope this is a useful assignment for you. As for "I'm a Christian, get over it!", don't act surprised when people take your bait ("God bless"). If you feel the urge to discuss religion here, your assignment seems broad enough to encompass that, and many people would readily respond. If you're not interested in talking about religion, I'm not sure why you'd bring it up. Except to kind of deliberately slap people in the face, which I admit is kinda funny.
Anyway, you'll find that there are quite a number of regular posters on here who are Christian too. It's not always obvious, because they don't have much reason to bring it up when they're discussing scientific stuff, but some of them have interesting contributions on a wide range of topics. We also get some persistent creationist nutjobs posting on here, so the rationalists here are often expecting a fight with the superstitious.
Anyway, best of luck. As you find interesting source material about this stuff, be sure to offer us links!
Posted by: Spaulding | September 14, 2007 6:28 PM
Runners-up:
Posted by: Kseniya | September 14, 2007 6:32 PM
Interpretation of dreams? Check.
Information on folding proteins? Nothing.
Why won't my Bible help me understand these damn folding proteins? There's no answers in this thing!
But hey... I'm eager to hear more on both subjects.
Posted by: Wrought | September 14, 2007 6:36 PM
I'm no neurobiologist, but it strikes me that one of the important differences between natural and artificial systems is the danger of false dichotomy or inappropriate reductionism when attempting to describe the natural system.
Artificial memory, like anything human-designed, will use well-understood building blocks assembled in well-understood ways to produce predictable, repeatable behavior. In the case of artificial memory, the basic building block is a digital switch. Each switch behaves in a straightforward deterministic manner independent of the context in which we place it. A switch is not memory any more than a LEGO brick is a toy castle. One part is designed and is used as a self-contained subordinate unit in constructing the other.
Natural systems don't necessarily work that way because they were not designed. No conscious agent was trying to control for a particular outcome. If you are trying to answer a question like "are memories stored in synaptic arrangements or in protein folding configurations" then you might overlook the possibility that neither mechanism is wholly subordinate to the other, and that the abstract high-level notion of "memory" in brains cannot be completely described in terms of either alone. The mechanisms may in fact feed back into one another in ways that are difficult to predict, describe, reproduce or control. The principle of parsimony is important in descriptive science, but nature is in no way required to cooperate with a prescriptive parsimony.
It is an important skill to recognize such subtle sources of bias in oneself, to be able to ask yourself what you really know and why you think you know it, and to revise or suspend assumptions that cannot be justified.
Posted by: Gelf | September 14, 2007 6:54 PM
Can someone tell an old geek what "MPR" means?
Posted by: Russell | September 14, 2007 7:01 PM
~K isn't all that cute, and you typically whoop ass. I suppose everything came together in a kind of synergy of cute, and I made a hasty reduction pinpointing the tilde as the cause. It had its role to play in the MySpace tone, but is probably harmless by itself.
Internet gender confusion always starts the worst kinds of conversations. I think fedaykin means to say that the poster is openly Christian, and openly attracted to women, and therefore seems to be a man.
I know I'm going to get dogpiled for saying that, but I shouldn't be. Here's why:
1) I did not suggest that no Christian woman could be attracted to other women.
2) I did not suggest that there is no such thing as a Christian woman who openly admits to being attracted to other women.
What I did suggest is that people of the second variety are a vast minority among Christians, and so it isn't an unreasonable conclusion to reach at all (and I am not to be blamed for that, blame for that falls on the Christians). The problem really boiled down to: Either this poster is a Christian girl who is attracted to other girls, or this poster is a male. Parsimony suggests the latter, but the mannerism (and I'm going to get attacked for saying this) is that of a teenage girl (who, for example, have sometimes been known to write in pink ink and put hearts above their 'i's, and commenting on that trend doesn't make me a sexist), and that's why fedaykin is confused.
Why didn't fedaykin say that? Because if he did, his post would have been as long as this one. It is possible to be oversensitive. I don't mean that in the dismissive, trivializing and dishonest sense racists, chauvinists or bigots usually mean it in. I mean it exactly as it appears: It is possible to be oversensitive.
Posted by: CrunchButtsteak | September 14, 2007 7:09 PM
This protein hypothesis sounds very interesting -- I look forward to reading about it. And though I think it's great that the cephalopod army hasn't gotten you down, Sticking to science is probably a good idea. 'Bright' means something different here.
Posted by: Chaz | September 14, 2007 7:11 PM
#1:
I believe you're thinking of engineering departments. Speaking to girls implies that you know at least 1 more girl than your colleagues :)Posted by: Chris | September 14, 2007 7:12 PM
Thanks for the fast comments, I'm actually a guy and picked the name "Bright Lights" because I knew that there would be people far more advanced in this feild than me. I figured some of the responses I would get back on the material would leave me like a deer in the head lights or "bright lights." It's got nothing to do with spirituality, although I do like the comparisons.
Let me know what some of the hot topics in the field of Neurology are right now, then you won't have to listen to college kids talk about protein folding with respect to memory function.
Posted by: Bright Lights | September 14, 2007 7:12 PM
May Oden bless you child.
Posted by: Alex | September 14, 2007 7:12 PM
Gugghh.
Fixed.
Posted by: CruchButtsteak | September 14, 2007 7:14 PM
Since my students are both men and women, and most have chosen pseudonyms that don't make a big deal out of their gender, maybe it would be a good idea to not worry about the content of their chromosomes and think more about the expression of their thoughts. Would it matter whether they were male or female? None of you are going to get to date them, after all.
Posted by: PZ Myers | September 14, 2007 7:40 PM
PZ wrote, in some context we can forget:
I'm going to frame it, and put it on the wall. With a squid as background pic. ;-)
Posted by: Russell | September 14, 2007 7:49 PM
My amazing jaw, rock hard abs, tight butt and manly features beg to differ.
*sigh*
I'll behave from now on.
Posted by: BuckPlankchest | September 14, 2007 7:52 PM
Bright Lights sounds kinda gay
Posted by: confused! | September 14, 2007 8:06 PM
Bright Lights wrote:
Does anyone know if Michael Persinger's work has been replicated? It would be an interesting task for a Christian.
http://www.shaktitechnology.com/index.htm
Posted by: Norman Doering | September 14, 2007 8:39 PM
Good response BL. Pluck is a necessity around here.
As for your name, I actually thought it was a reference to the Bright's movement, and had you pegged for a secular belief system. Just goes to show what preconception can do for you. :P
Roger, FCD
Posted by: Spicy McHaggis | September 14, 2007 9:00 PM
I'm going to mail a copy to the Discovery Institute. It'll show up in the next press release. "Even evolutionary biologists like PZ Myers doubt that the content of chromosomes is relevant," they'll say.
Posted by: TrunkSlamchest | September 14, 2007 9:03 PM
Russell (#31):
The context of Bright Lights' first post made it a little clearer. "MPR" is the 800-pound gorilla of the public-radio world, Minnesota Public Radio. Bright Lights was specifically talking about a recent MPR effort to break into contemporary pop music broadcasting, a station called "The Current."Posted by: Rieux | September 14, 2007 9:08 PM
Kudos to Bright_Lights. He was not only the first of PZ's students to dip a toe in the blog pool but he jumped straight in at the deep end with his protein folding post.
As for some of the complaints - well I can't see anything wrong with "Bright_Lights" as a screen name so I'd stick with it myself. That "deer in the headlights" image is justification enough (especially with this audience) and the thought occurs to me that it is, maybe, a pretty good collective noun for PZ's students.
Still, if you do change your screen name then how about well er -- speaking as an aged heathen, I suppose I shouldn't say this but I'm also an old curmudgeon so I'll say it anyway -- so how about "God_Bless" :-)
Posted by: aged_heathen | September 14, 2007 9:29 PM
Radio Lab is produced by WNYC (New York) and then broadcast on a variety of public radio stations. I just subscribed to the podcast, and am listening pretty much non-stop. Very good. I especially recommend the August 2007 show, which you can find at
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2007/08. In it, Annie Duryan talks about falling in love with Carl Sagan. I was bawling by the end of the segment, which is not such a good thing when you're barreling down the interstate at 75 miles an hour.
Posted by: folderol | September 14, 2007 9:31 PM
In re "MPR": Radio Lab is actually produced by WNYC (New York) and then broadcast via a host of radio stations. I just subscribed to the Radio Lab podcasts, and am listening to them pretty much non-stop. Very good.
I highly recommend the August 2007 show, which you can find at http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2007/08. In it, Ann Druyan recounts falling in love with her soon-to-be husband Carl Sagan. I was bawling by the end of the segment, which is not such a good thing when you're barreling down the highway at 75 mph.
Posted by: folderol | September 14, 2007 9:35 PM
Found any evidence from neurobiology for the soul yet, Bright Lights?
:-)
Posted by: Shalini | September 14, 2007 9:50 PM
"I'm a Christian, get over it!"
I'm an atheist. I already have. :P
"God bless!"
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage.
Welcome aboard.
-OEJ
Posted by: One Eyed Jack | September 14, 2007 9:59 PM
Despite PZ's admonitions, most of us are harmless and well-intentioned. We are also generally interested in and often make our living in the purview of science. However, I think it's safe to say that most of us are also pretty dismissive of religion and that topic will only lead to argument that is repetitious and unproductive. So, if we want to avoid debates without solutions, let's all just avoid the subject that generates the vast majority of them and leave that discussion for other and more appropriate venues.
Posted by: Milo Johnson | September 14, 2007 10:07 PM
Nice recovery, dude. You oughta give tips to Rob Knop, an "openly Christian" ScienceBloggerer who's been chewed on a few times by the Pharyngulites.
Yeah, yeah, I know it's not all of PZ's fans. But then, it's not just them, either. Any net-crowds tends to pick up that sort of "sharp edge" unless the moderators put serious effort into filing them down. For that matter, I suspect a lot of people are still getting burned by the whole "no tone-of-voice in text" thing -- it's easy to write something that you think sounds like a sarcastic tease, but which your reader takes as viciously hostile.
Posted by: David Harmon | September 14, 2007 10:38 PM
Welcome, Bright Lights!
I'm not a scientist - just interested. I'm a technical writer in Toronto, Ontario.
The thought of proteins folding to help us learn makes sense - there must be some way to create a physical, or electropotential, trace in the brain. I don't know anything about that. But I did read about some research where amnesia patients who couldn't form new long-term memories were given Tetris(tm) to play with. Then they were watched when they went to sleep that night. When they started to dream, researchers woke them and asked them what they were dreaming about. They were dreaming of falling shapes! And they didn't remember why. That adds credence to the hypothesis that we dream to integrate our memories of the day. And the process seems to be running even when there's a hitch in the transcription to permanent memory.
Further, what's causing the hitch? Maybe there's a centre for protein-folding (chemical) instructions or for producing the right enzyme - and that's what gets damaged in those unfortunate amnesiacs.
Posted by: Monado | September 14, 2007 11:21 PM
Lance Skybolt!
Posted by: Scott Hatfield, OM | September 14, 2007 11:23 PM
Hey, the handle "Bright Lights" can be totally masculine: imagine a massive array of 50 gigaJoule carbon arc lights blazing onto the face of legendary Van Halen frontman David Lee Roth.
Posted by: cm | September 14, 2007 11:45 PM
Must I?
Posted by: Missy Van Pinkenfrokken | September 15, 2007 12:53 AM
Zeus is so gonna kick your ass.
Posted by: Kseniya | September 15, 2007 1:18 AM
Funny, but I never thought Bright_Lights was a girl. Maybe because the handle made me think of Bright Eyes, and he's ALL man.
Posted by: Rey Fox | September 15, 2007 1:53 AM
Same here, Rey.
(Mmmmm... Conor!)
Posted by: Kseniya | September 15, 2007 1:59 AM
"...stop feeding you heathens further fuel for the spiritual flames of damnation :P (I'm a Christian, get over it!)...
What's to get over? That schtick's flatter than Kansas, and not nearly as pretty.
You are a student. You're in school to learn, not to preach.
Wish you well in your endeavor (learning). Seriously.
Posted by: Arnosium Upinarum | September 15, 2007 3:29 AM
IT'S PERFECTLY OK TO TALK ABOUT PROTEIN FOLDING AND MEMORY.
The best candidates for memory mechanisms now are things like LTP... these are nice and all but it's important to remember that the evidence linking them to actual memory traces (whatever those are) is very slim. There are no known physiological changes to synapses that last as long as memories do.
Some people brought up prions in your previous post. It's worth noting that many neuronal proteins contain domains (usually poly-Q tracts) that predispose them to forming prion-like "mis"-folded forms. Interestingly, these domains are completely dispensible for the known functions of these proteins, but are under intense negative (stabilizing) selection.
Why? In the case of the synaptic protein CPEB (which regulates the synthesis of other proteins at particular synapses) Eric Kandel and Sue Lindquist have proposed that adopting a prion-like aggregate form might function as a long-term synaptic tag. Essentially they are proposing prion-lik protein aggregates as a mechanism for permanently altering a synapse.
See the back to back Cell papers by Kausik Si from a few years back (Dec 2003).
Posted by: miko | September 15, 2007 4:18 AM
There are 4 of them. ;-)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708687/
but also
http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2618004
:-D
Posted by: SEF | September 15, 2007 5:11 AM
That made me smile, after all the comments to your first post. Looking forward to read more about memory, especially since mine works so badly at times :)
Posted by: slang | September 15, 2007 5:54 AM
Regardless of some of the (faux) shock and horror that some express at the mentions of God and Christianity (including myself, on your first post), feel free to sign off with "God Bless" on all your posts. We won't bite. Hard.
Posted by: Kadin | September 15, 2007 5:59 AM
you heathens
The correct term is infidel.
Or kitten-barbequeing emember of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy (EAC), whichever you prefer. ;-)
Posted by: Graculus | September 15, 2007 8:28 AM
Pfff. I'm a heathen. You guys wish you were heathens.
Anyway, somone should note that PZ's blog is not merely a science blog, it's a combat science blog. I'm sure most of us come here for the science, but we stay for the public butchery of idiots.
Dunno what he was thinking, really...
Posted by: SmellyTerror | September 15, 2007 8:44 AM
Pfff. I'm a heathen. You guys wish you were heathens.
No, I have no desire to arrange made-by-prisoners-in-China knick-knacks on a dresser and get confused by people asking why I'm celebrating the lactation of the ewes when the nearest I've ever been to a sheep is a wool sock. ;-)
Posted by: Graculus | September 15, 2007 8:55 AM
"God bless"
Oh no! Suffice to say it's one of the words the Knights of Pharyngula who until recently said "Ne!" cannot hear!
Posted by: firemancarl | September 15, 2007 10:17 AM
Nicely done. It's rare to see someone manage to go through a list of alleged flaws, admit to the one or two that are actually relevant, and stick to their guns on the rest. The touch of snark was also very good - and certainly called for.
The only thing I'd suggest you do differently is to provide some more references. For example, when you say:
without providing details about who the "many researchers" are, it makes me wonder (a) who these other researchers are; and (b) if you're just making that up. That second part's not really fair to you, but after spending lots of time debating with people online, that's an automatic reaction. It wouldn't surprise me if I'm not the only one here who has it.
If you cite references when you post here, I think it will help you in a lot of ways. It'll make it clear to the overly skeptical (like me) that you do know what you're talking about. It'll make it clear that you do know what you are talking about. It'll make it easier for people to follow your arguments, and find more information if they are interested in the subject. It'll also make your posts clearer - even if it also makes them longer.
Posted by: Mike Dunford | September 15, 2007 10:59 AM
In my opinion there are plenty of good reasons not to be a Christian, but social pressure isn't one. I'm glad to see that you didn't just run away in fear after the deluge of comments. That sort of courage will be a great asset if you ever scrutinize your religious beliefs objectively and become an atheist.
God _less!
Posted by: Patrick Quigley | September 15, 2007 6:37 PM
God bless you too, shitbird.
Posted by: Kat | September 16, 2007 12:01 AM
Hey, Bright_Lights, thanks for hitting it again. Cool that you listened to some suggestions.
I, too, would like to learn more about the interruption of protein folding and memory and lack of sleep. Keep up posted.
~Tangled Up in Blue Guy
Posted by: Gunnar Jetpack | September 16, 2007 1:11 AM