…and this is a 
We “passionate” atheists
Category: Godlessness
Posted on: September 24, 2007 4:07 PM, by PZ Myers
Can we stomach another label? How about "passionate atheists"? An Arkansas minister objects to the very idea.
Not long ago the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette published an interesting article entitled "Passionate Atheists." This caught my attention immediately.
My first thought was, "How do you get passionate about nothing?" If no God exists, what is there to get passionate about? Why do professed atheists find it necessary to convert other people to their unbelief, since there is nothing of substance there to convince them of?
My second thought was, "Isn't this statement, passionate atheists, close to being an oxymoron ?"
He then rambles on with the usual mindless godbottery — amorality, spiritual decline of the nation, sexual deviancy, fools in their heart, bible quotes, yadda yadda yadda — which Revere has ably pulverized. So I'll just address the opening gambit.
Are we atheists passionate about something? Hell, yes.
I'm passionate about my family — people for whom I'd give my life. It wouldn't matter whether a god was dead, nonexistent, or hovering over my shoulder.
I'm passionate about science, a process that actively and explicitly excludes gods and the supernatural, whether they exist or not.
I'm passionate about my students, and in most cases I don't have a clue what religion, if any, they practice … and it wouldn't matter in the least anyway.
And oh, yeah, I'm passionate about atheism, but atheism isn't about nothing: it's about valuing reason over superstition, about conquering unfounded fears, about facing the real world without crutches and lies to hold you up. I'm sure someone is going to sit there and dissect the letters of the word and tell me that atheism means only an absence of belief in gods, but screw that — it's about a whole philosophy of thought that is built on materialism and naturalism. It is an idea with substance.
If you want to see passion over nothing, you're going to have to look to the true believers, like Mr Terry up there. Take a moment. Think about something you feel passionate about — a child, a book, a lover, a symphony, a forest, a gorgeous day. What thrills you? The touch, the sight, the sound, the words, the history, the beauty, the resonance of memory, the feelings it stirs. These are all real. Those are the elements of our experience, the tissues of the natural world. Most of us would, I think, say that if there were no god there, there would still be something to be passionate about. Mr Terry, however, finds his passion in an imaginary, nonsensical being with less immanence in our world than a grain of sand or a falling leaf, a delusion of no substance that can have less physical impact on his life than the secretions of even just one of his gut bacteria … at least that bacterium actually exists.
And he dares to rebuke us for believing in nothing? We believe in every thing.
Politics
Comments
why do I keep thinking this series of posts by PZ is somehow leading up to a revision of the St. Crispin's day speech from Henry V?
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 24, 2007 4:11 PM
Posted by: PZ Myers | September 24, 2007 4:15 PM
LOL
once more into the breach!
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 24, 2007 4:17 PM
Is use of Comic Sans a form of framing?
Posted by: andy | September 24, 2007 4:17 PM
Good work, PZ - I agree 100%. It is probably also true to say that atheists are perhaps more likely to be passionate about things that are relevant to our world in the here-and-now, than people who think that their reckoning can be procrastinated to some singularity in the hereafter, and they are carrying the ultimate "Get Out of Jail Free" card. One might even argue that such an attitude is more compatible with morality than slavish adherence to the supposed prattlings of some hypothetical pixie. Religion, in fact, *cannot* be a basis for proper morality.
For an atheist, *every* day is Judgement Day, and that's just the way we like it.
Posted by: Amenhotep | September 24, 2007 4:22 PM
Well said, PZ, and LoL @ Ichthyic. (St. Hitchens' Day?)
The gentleman from Arkansas makes a common mistake: He conflates (or confuses) atheism with nihilism and wrongly concludes that is all about "believing in nothing," from which follows the idiotic aphorism, "Those who believe in nothing will believe in anything."
(Say, if we're all automatons, why do I prefer Bartók to Beethoven? Should I ask for my money back?)
Posted by: Kseniya | September 24, 2007 4:24 PM
If Mr. Comic Sans speaking with his Gumby hat on can't understand how one believes in nothing, perhaps it'd be easier if he thought about it this way: believing in nothing is not drastically different from believing in something that doesn't exist; supply your own value judgement. Not believing is like being passionate about being not stupid, or not insane.
Posted by: Ken Cope | September 24, 2007 4:26 PM
I'm passionate about atheism, but atheism isn't about nothing: it's about valuing reason over superstition, about conquering unfounded fears, about facing the real world without crutches and lies to hold you up.
PZ you wax poetically, I feel there must be a book in you
just waiting to burst forth,am I correct???
Posted by: JONBOY | September 24, 2007 4:28 PM
I don't think his accusation makes sense from another perspective: since when do all atheists, or even most, spend lots of time trying to convert anyone to anything?
Sure, those of us that you actually hear about spend some of our time objecting to fallacious arguments that people make in public and that deserve response (especially, it must be noted, when these statements are insults and accusations against US). And others of us spend our time on political causes that we think make society freer, more just, and make everyone (including believers!) better off.
But since when has deconverting believers been pushed as a priority, or even a big deal? Sure, I wouldn't mind living in a world with a lot less religious faith. But then, I wouldn't mind living in a world with a lot less obession about what Britney Spears is doing every moment of her day either.
And if someone is a believer, chances are they aren't going to stop believing no matter what I say. And as long as they don't threaten anyone, or get away with making bogus claims unchallenged, it's really not a big deal in the end: it's not like I believe they are going to hell for it, after all.
The worst they might be doing (that's not already illegal and so already opposed) is spreading bad ideas. I'll fight those, but I'm not going to sweat it out if they ultimately just keep believing something I don't see any reason to believe.
Posted by: Bad | September 24, 2007 4:29 PM
St. Hitchens' Day
heh, exactly.
the irony is perfect.
Should I ask for my money back?
good luck. I think they even outsourced the customer service dept. for that last year.
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 24, 2007 4:29 PM
I'll tell him what I'm passionate about. I'm passionate about stopping idiots like this from imposing their irrational belief system on everyone else. I'm passionate about keeping religion out of politics. I'm passionate about keeping Canada a secular society. I'm passionate about smacking down religious hypocrisy.
Posted by: Randy | September 24, 2007 4:30 PM
Um...reality?
Posted by: Martin Wagner | September 24, 2007 4:31 PM
I'd offer up "St. Dawkins' Day", but perhaps we could give a little love to the much-ignored Victor Stenger instead. "St. Stenger's Day", indeed.
Posted by: stogoe | September 24, 2007 4:32 PM
well, let's not ignore St. Myers.
after all these years, PZ really has managed to make a significant splash in the atheism pool (let alone the New Atheist Jacuzzi).
which reminds me...
finish the damn book already, PZ.
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 24, 2007 4:47 PM
In all seriousness, I am passionate about avoiding the building of personality cults around atheism. Canonizing is therefore out. :-)
There are many people in life whose opinions I value, but not one of them, nor all of them together, are as capable of swaying me in one direction or another as is one incontrovertible fact.
Posted by: Kseniya | September 24, 2007 4:55 PM
Well I said it before..but i'll say it again.
Atheism is about one sole moral code:
Live with the goal of reducing suffering and increasing happiness while keeping free will.
If those godbots can't understand why we would want to promote a life that is centered around this concept...i question who it is exactly that is lacking morals.
Posted by: techskeptic | September 24, 2007 4:57 PM
It really is all the same pile of crap-ola. What, oh what is going to happen to someone when they become an atheist?
"without restraint, he may become a pedophile, a murderer, a thief, or any other kind of a deviant you can think of.
"
As many others here have noted, and I have always felt, if the only thing that's stopping you from becoming a child molesting, thieving murderer is your belief that some big invisible person in the sky is keeping tabs on you; run, don't walk, to the nearest professional counselor and doctor. You are a danger to society. These people scare the living shit out of me.
Posted by: Dahan | September 24, 2007 5:01 PM
"If no God exists, what is there to get passionate about?"
FOOTBALL!
Posted by: Rey Fox | September 24, 2007 5:03 PM
How can you be passionate about football if you can't pray to god for touchdowns?
Posted by: aiabx | September 24, 2007 5:08 PM
Actually, the "what do atheists have to be passionate about" idea is incredibly common and one of the big reasons that more moderate religious people don't have a problem with other faiths, but have a problem with vocal atheists. Fine, don't believe if you don't want to, they think, but why the hell are you yelling about your belief in nothing? Sit down and shut up already, and leave me to my beliefs.
Its an idea I actually had myself back before I'd actually interacted with atheists (and became one myself). Its obviously an idea that comes from having not thought about the issue very thoroughly, but it can be counteracted rather easily, at least when dealing with less-crazy religious folks. Just explain WHY atheism is important to you, and talk about what you DO believe in. The real nuts just hate atheists, and aren't listening anyways... but there are many, many ordinary religious people that simply never had this conversation with an atheist, and would act much more kindly towards them if they had.
Posted by: kec | September 24, 2007 5:17 PM
"How can you be passionate about football if you can't pray to god for touchdowns?"
Very true, its a fact, in almost every game that people pray for one team or another, one of the teams wins. (it just so happens that both teams are being prayed for, so god gets to let the chips fall where they may, and he still gets credit)
Posted by: Steven | September 24, 2007 5:25 PM
How do you get passionate about nothing ? " If no God exists, what is there to get passionate about ?
I know it's been done before, but here we go:
"If no Zeus exists, what is there to get passionate about?"
"If no Wotan exists, what is there to get passionate about?"
"If no Marduk exists, what is there to get passionate about?"
"If no Ra-Herakty exists, what is there to get passionate about?"
I wonder why those xians spend so much time shouting and proselytising, after all they disbelieve in Zeus / Wotan / Ra / Osiris / Aphrodite / Thor / The Incredible Hulk / Noggin the Nog...why, I wonder how they restrain themselves from paedophilia, murder and torture (Oh, that's right they don't).
Posted by: AlanWCan | September 24, 2007 5:26 PM
Ahh, the law of unintended consequences rears it's ugly head. When John Terry wrote that article he probably didn't even pause to consider the many live he would affect - and that one of them would be mine...
Thanks John (and PZ).
Posted by: NoAstronomer | September 24, 2007 5:35 PM
This past Saturday was amazing, a hot September day in Minnesota, and I'm lying out in the grass and listening to XTC and Brian Eno, and I swear I could feel the earth spin. I pictured myself as this tiny little point of consciousness in this enormous universe, all spinning and swirling. Like I'm the penpoint in a Spirograph, regularities turning out symmetries all around me, getting inside me. It was all vertiginous and giddy, like a light-speed Tilt-O-Whirl. Completely mind-blowing, God-free, and using nothing but the chemicals and energy and patterns in my brain. The god of revealed religions is crabbed, tawdry, anemic (despite his bloodlust) and pathetic. To a worm such a being could be a god. But to a man in a park below a blue sky, reality is too much a thing to be passionate about to admit these petty idols from humanity's infancy. We're not the ones with the explaining to do.
Posted by: Greg Peterson | September 24, 2007 5:37 PM
Shorter, modern version of the St. Crispin's Day speech:
I aim to misbehave.
Hey, applies pretty well, dont'cha think?
Posted by: Johnny Vector | September 24, 2007 5:39 PM
As many others here have noted, and I have always felt, if the only thing that's stopping you from becoming a child molesting, thieving murderer is your belief that some big invisible person in the sky is keeping tabs on you; run, don't walk, to the nearest professional counselor and doctor. You are a danger to society.
True, which is perhaps why so many of these types have serious anger-management problems and various personality disorders marked by barely concealed aggression and hostility. Most of the actively proselytizing Christians I've met seem to be suffering from a form of permanent road rage, which they subdue with varying degrees of success. Probably also why many of them gravitate to authoritarian politics.
Posted by: Madam Pomfrey | September 24, 2007 5:41 PM
Perhaps yon fuckwit might consider the long and honourable tradition of sending missionaries to Christianise the heathens, part of which included passionately disabusing the locals of their native belief systems.
I mean, if Quetzalcoatl never existed, why the need for Jesuits to tell the poor savages that ?
Oh Lord Jesus Christ, if you truly do exist, please send me a representative of your faith who is not a complete and utter moron, ignorant of history and humanity.
Posted by: Brownian | September 24, 2007 5:44 PM
If no God exists, what is there to get passionate about?
And whose name do we yell at those peak intimate moments? Heh. It's obvious where this guy's thoughts are! I predict another sex scandal coming up.
Posted by: Kristine | September 24, 2007 5:49 PM
Theists always talk about how god must be their number one priority in order for their lives to hold meaning. Whenever they talk about non-theists, the only things they can imagine replacing god are always some crazy, shallow, evil priority. It's never "Instead of god, atheists make fellow humans their top priority," which has the unfortunate effect of making atheists sound like like nice, sensible people. It's always "atheists 'worship' material wealth and fame" or that we're nihilists, which is of course untrue. Ah, but theists wouldn't be theists if they weren't intellectually incurious and easily placated by lies.
Posted by: H. Humbert | September 24, 2007 5:49 PM
P.Z., you are terriffic! And this from an old (very retired) engineering dean.
Everything posted today was as good as it gets.
Thanks
Posted by: Hardy Bourland | September 24, 2007 5:52 PM
So far, we've got:
"naive"
"amoral"
"passionate"
Are we atheists therefore passionate about naively being amoral? Amorally passionate about being naive? I'm a little confused.
I expect PZ has a few more to throw up here when the time is right (when his secondary or tertiary personality is posting in the middle of the night, for example). Will we see "foolish", "ignorant", and "lazy" in addition to the oft-cited "militant", "strident" and "new"? This could get fun.
Posted by: TheBrummell | September 24, 2007 5:54 PM
At least we're not being accused of smelling of prawns. Yet.
Posted by: Laser Potato | September 24, 2007 5:58 PM
Reminds me of a joke my (also atheist) friend told me:
Q: What do atheists scream during sex?
A: Oh primordial ooze, oh primordial ooze!
Posted by: Brownian | September 24, 2007 5:59 PM
Seems to me the only thing to scream during orgasm is your lover's name--unless you happen to be the Virgin Mary.
Posted by: Greg Peterson | September 24, 2007 6:04 PM
Hello? We're immoral atheists, remember? We don't know what our lover du jour's name is because we're closet hedonists.
Posted by: Brownian | September 24, 2007 6:07 PM
Why are atheists coming out of the " closet" now ?
Because we're sick of cocky, holier-than-thou, know-it-all idiots like you who are ruining the country with your delusional god nonsense.
Posted by: CalGeorge | September 24, 2007 6:08 PM
In other words, we're sick to death of the immorality and hypocrisy of theists.
Posted by: Brownian | September 24, 2007 6:10 PM
Seems like the entire midwest took their anti-atheist pills recently. I was back home for family reunion in July.
When the family went to church the pastor delivered a sermon that was almost an hour and a half long on how it must suck to be an atheist because we "don't have a plan in life."
So can we be the "aimlessly wandering" atheists too?
Posted by: G | September 24, 2007 6:12 PM
"How can you be passionate about football if you can't pray to god for touchdowns?"
Perhaps you didn't hear me the first time. FOOBOW!
Posted by: Rey Fox | September 24, 2007 6:20 PM
TO THE HAPPY FEW
Stendahl used it as a motto at the end of The Charterhouse of Parma
Posted by: paul | September 24, 2007 6:21 PM
What about all the "strident" or "passionate" theists? They always make me think of this joke by the incomparable comedian Emo Phillips.
"Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over."
Posted by: jeh | September 24, 2007 6:23 PM
Um, neither do Christians. Apparently, some guy named 'God' has a plan for them, but it's only ever revealed post priori.
Had your kid killed in a landslide? All part of God's plan. Incurable cancer? All part of God's plan. Murderer went on a rampage and shot up your sister at a mall? All part of God's plan--but still the fault of the homos/feminists/libruls/intellectuals/trade unions/'Darwinists'/Comedy Central.
Posted by: Brownian | September 24, 2007 6:28 PM
#34
yeah because if Mary had screamed out her lovers name, then she would have had to have been stoned to death immediately.
At least that's what my in depth study of the Life of Brian has taught me.
Posted by: DaveC | September 24, 2007 6:29 PM
Thanks PZ, I was born in a muslim household and was a fairly devout muslim up until I opened my eyes to the world around me. It's ramadan at the moment, which is probably the time of the year I feel most alone. I love my family very much but I don't share their religious passions and it often makes me feel like the "innocent flower, / But be the serpent under it".
But you speak to me and make me love the reason and truth that I hold in such high esteem, and make me realise that it's the best part of me.
Posted by: Azra | September 24, 2007 6:32 PM
#42
are you sure you don't mean ex post facto? Or are both of those equally ass-covering?
Either way, I'm willing to bet that the pastor would have said that the only plans atheists have are of the five year variety...
Posted by: G | September 24, 2007 6:38 PM
but still the fault of the homos/feminists/libruls/intellectuals/trade unions/'Darwinists'/Comedy Central.
yeah, ain't that a kicker how fast Comedy Central has risen the demonization ladder?
I wonder if someday "comedians" might be on a higher rung than "darwinists" in this country.
I suppose it does depend on the country in which the demonization ladder is built.
in countries where the majority of the populace actually understands satire and irony (like England, say), I'd bet that comedians are far more commonly demonized than darwinists.
:P
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 24, 2007 6:42 PM
Here's an "egged" atheist:
Vandals egg house of local atheist
The home of a local outspoken atheist was vandalized overnight Friday, police said -- with eggs tossed at the house and cars, and crosses and religious words scrawled in chalk on the driveway.
A church bulletin also was stuck on the front door.
The incident comes days after Rob Sherman's daughter, Dawn, led a successful effort to have the song "God Bless America" yanked from Buffalo Grove High School's homecoming celebration. Dawn Sherman is a freshman on the student council.
The vandalism likely was the retaliatory work of youngsters, police Sgt. Mike Millett said -- since it came on the heels of the school incident and because one of the chalked words, "Jesus," was misspelled.
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=43811&src=1
Go Dawn!
Posted by: CalGeorge | September 24, 2007 6:46 PM
"Jesus," was misspelled.
Perfect.
you just can't write better social commentary than that.
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 24, 2007 6:48 PM
The idiot is right when he said we are concerned about "nothing". It's because he has no freaking clue about our position, but that doesn't stop him (and the drones that appreciate him) from expressing their worthless opinions on the matter.
░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░
░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░░░░░
░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░░░░░
░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░░░░░
░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░░░░░
░░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░░░░░
░░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░░▐▐░
░░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░▌░▐▐░
░░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░████░
░░░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒██▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██▒▒▒░░░░░░░░██░░
░░░░░░░░░░▒▒▒██▒▒▒████▒▒▒▒▒████▒▒▒██▒░░░░░░░░██░░
░░░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░██░░
░░░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒████████░░
░░░░░░██▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██████████▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░░░
░░░░██░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░░░
░░██░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░░░
░░██░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░░░
░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░░░
░░░░░░░░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒░░░░░░░░░░
░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░██░░░░██░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░
░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░██████░░░░██████░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░
░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░
Posted by: The Lucifer Principle | September 24, 2007 6:49 PM
Hell yes! I'm passionate about genuine, unadulterated truth and about seeing the world for what it is rather than what I want it to be!
Okay, yes, I am one of those hard agnostics who is so close to being atheist that it's probably difficult to measure, as opposed to a soft agnostic who doubles for a Christian apologist. Still, I feel I stand to be counted with any movement that values telling the truth, regardless of what that truth might actually be. I think the one thing religion cannot tell you is the truth.
Posted by: viggen | September 24, 2007 6:55 PM
A minister huh? I wonder does he have any other job or is ministering the whole thing? Cause if it is I now understand why he needs to make statements like the above. He can't find any other work and is not competent to actually DO anything.
I can't imagine a more boring passionless life than that.
We believe in nothing? HUH?
Posted by: JamesR | September 24, 2007 7:04 PM
As an extremely passionate future mathematician, I'd like to add that in fact you CAN get passionate about nothing--as one of my favorite professors is fond of pointing out, you can build up the whole of mathematics from just the empty set.
Posted by: Susan B. | September 24, 2007 7:14 PM
Gee, I had to take down my "absence of theism" quote after all that. :P
Live long and prosper!
Posted by: Spocko | September 24, 2007 7:17 PM
"yeah, ain't that a kicker how fast Comedy Central has risen the demonization ladder?"
Has it? Haven't seen that myself, but it's not surprising. They can't abide laughter.
Posted by: Rey Fox | September 24, 2007 7:17 PM
Hi PZ - I haven't been around your (or other) blogs for a number of months [catching up will happen] but the tone of your passion is wonderful and I am so glad I chose to drop in on your blog this day.
(signed) marc
Posted by: Marc Buhler | September 24, 2007 7:22 PM
Wow... Another indoctrinated simple-minded minister projecting. Still, I'm impressed that the quality of religious twaddle from Arkansas seems to be improving.
Posted by: Dan | September 24, 2007 7:24 PM
In The Reason Driven Life, Robert Price's incisive and often funny rebuttal to the popular The Purpose Driven Life, Price points out that, according to Pastor Rick Warren, God's purpose for your life is for you to dedicate yourself to volunteer work at a church. And he also points out that, by very strange coincidence, Pastor Rick Warren runs several huge mega-churches which rely heavily on (here's where the spooky part comes in) volunteer work.
Interesting how easily everything all fits together in the Christian faith.
Posted by: Sastra | September 24, 2007 7:26 PM
Right there with ya!
Posted by: MAJeff | September 24, 2007 7:40 PM
well said, sirrah!
i endorse the others' echoes of the passion of the Bard, and the young king...
Posted by: konopelli/wgg | September 24, 2007 7:57 PM
Wonderfully put! You've summed up pretty much my entire outlook here.
Posted by: Kelley | September 24, 2007 7:58 PM
I take this little bitch John Terry out to the woodshed in my own response, which I wrote as a letter to the editor and have also posted at the Atheist Experience blog, here.
Posted by: Martin Wagner | September 24, 2007 8:02 PM
i think you almost could say that, in effect, "marduk/god/wodin" capture the inchoate passion of the whole universe, regularize it, use it...to regulate the behaviors which the passions often solely motivate.
Posted by: konopelli/wgg | September 24, 2007 8:08 PM
Maybe the article refers to atheists who are vociferous in the defense of atheism and, as it usually goes, the vehememt rebuttal of misinformation perpetuated by "believers".
As an atheist I subscribe to two definitions of nihilism as it pertains to my non-belief. One, that human life is meaningless and two, that there is no pure objective basis for truth.
So I don't share the same passion as some for engaging in pissing matches with wingnuts. As long as I get richer, and continue to have the opportunity to get richer, I really don't care.
Would I care if I lived in a repressed theocracy that prohibited me from attaining the life I want because of my religious beliefs (or lack thereof)? Yep. But I don't. Do I think that my lack of caring will bring about that situation? No. Until that danger exists I'm not going to burden myself with the stress.
Posted by: BG | September 24, 2007 8:14 PM
"naive," "amoral," "passionate," ... No one has called me that.
Although I have been called "ignorant" and "cowardly" too.
Posted by: Ben | September 24, 2007 8:17 PM
A perfect example of principle that there are no objective values without religion. How do we know what you mean by "football?" American football? Gaelic football? Soccer? Now, if you said "THE PACKERS", then we'd know what manner of man we're dealing with.
Posted by: mgarelick | September 24, 2007 8:18 PM
Wonderful - elegant, yet pointedly direct - one of the best defences of atheism I've read. Thank you, PZ!
~ Nick
Posted by: Nick | September 24, 2007 8:31 PM
Longtime reader first time poster. I just want to say thanks for the recent atheist 'labels' series. Not being so eloquent myself it is nice to be able to show people a nice summary of things that I feel.
Posted by: IronSoul | September 24, 2007 9:09 PM
"it's about a whole philosophy of thought that is built on materialism and naturalism. "
Unfortunately i don't totally agree with this. I mean i wish that's what all atheists believed in, but i've met too many who were also in to astrology or some other BS.
Posted by: Brian W. | September 24, 2007 9:42 PM
Actually the thing more frightening than "That is morally wrong because the God says so" is "That is morally right because God says so".
Posted by: Craig | September 24, 2007 9:52 PM
PZ's mixing up humanism with atheism again.
BTW- what's happened to Caledonian?
Posted by: Christian Burnham | September 24, 2007 10:19 PM
Wait, what?
PZ sed:
I'm passionate about science, a process that actively and explicitly excludes gods and the supernatural, whether they exist or not.
Uhh...
"...whether they exist or not"?
What does that mean?
That scientists would/should ignore/exclude the existence of gods and the supernatural, even if they were proven to exist?
Or... oh, wait - you're saying that the domain of science is the natural world, so anything not of the natural world is of no concern to it... ?
But... you're also saying ("whether they exist or not") that gods and the supernatural may possibly exist; but if that's the case, then their existence would not be detectable through any scientific methodology, as their realm of existence would be "beyond" the natural world, meaning that no science or scientist could, ever, be able to say anything meaningful about their existence or nonexistence; or, if some method were found by which their existence could be confirmed, then, having existence, they would actually be part of the natural world, in which case theology would become a subset of physics. Or vice versa.
Or... damn, I'm confused. I really don't get what you're trying to convey in that sentence. It seems to turn backwards and eat itself; the words don't match the sentiment you're attempting to express.
And I think you may get in a bit of trouble with it. Any halfway intelligent religite'll seize on it as an opportunity to say "see? Scientists admit that they wouldn't accept or acknowledge god even if he exists!" Or "see? Atheists just want to defy god!"
'cos that basically seems to be what you've said... unless I'm misreading that... I probably am; it's late, I'm tired.
A clearer formulation might have been "... a practice which actively and explicitly excludes gods and the supernatural, which do not exist." Except you can't say "which do not exist," because you can't prove that something doesn't exist. So you'd have to say something like "which have a probability of existence so vanishingly small as to be for all practical purposes zero."
But then how do you calculate the probability of the existence of gods and the supernatural?
Sorry, I'm probably mucking up the thread. I just really... do not grok that sentence.
Posted by: Series of Tubes | September 24, 2007 11:16 PM
Sometimes I'm a hungry atheist
Sometimes I'm a drunk atheist
Sometimes I'm a creative atheist
Sometimes I'm a focused atheist
Sometimes I'm an atheist in New Orleans
Sometimes I'm an atheist playing with my dog
Sometimes I'm a Telemark Skiing Atheist
Sometimes I'm a woodworking atheist
Sometimes I'm a cooking atheist fool
Sometimes I'm a server updating atheist
Sometimes I'm an angry atheist
Sometimes I'm a tired atheist
Sometimes I'm a James Brown listening atheist
I'm a passionate atheist about everything I like to do.
The labels are just some way to pigeon hole atheists as some singular type of person.
It's complete bullshit.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 24, 2007 11:20 PM
Yeah, I'll disagree too. Atheism does mean only an absence of belief in gods. I have no problem labeling, say, Mao Zedong as an atheist, but we don't have all that much in common philosophically.
Many atheists, because they don't have theist beliefs getting in the way, tend to develop philosophies of thought that are built on materialism and naturalism. But that philosophy isn't atheism.
Posted by: Anton Mates | September 25, 2007 12:09 AM
"How do we know what you mean by "football?" American football? Gaelic football? Soccer?"
There is only one football and that is FOOBOW! You know it in your heart, even if you think you don't.
Posted by: Rey Fox | September 25, 2007 12:35 AM
I'm passionate about rejecting nonsense.
Posted by: Miguel Garcia-Blanco | September 25, 2007 12:43 AM
Series of Tubes
PZ sed:
I'm passionate about science, a process that actively and explicitly excludes gods and the supernatural, whether they exist or not.
Uhh...
"...whether they exist or not"?
What does that mean?
That scientists would/should ignore/exclude the existence of gods and the supernatural, even if they were proven to exist?
Or... oh, wait - you're saying that the domain of science is the natural world, so anything not of the natural world is of no concern to it... ?
But... you're also saying ("whether they exist or not") that gods and the supernatural may possibly exist; but if that's the case, then their existence would not be detectable through any scientific methodology...
My take on this is that when someone's talking about God, we should assume, unless otherwise stated, that he means the God who lives in the minds of all those believers out there. NOT the god of the philosophers.
We're talking the God of Moses. We're talking the god Jesus.
Those gods don't exist. So yes, science excludes them explicitly.
As for any gods who do exist, they're excluded from science too... for now at least. When they've proved their existence then yes, of course science will include them. But not today.
Suppose someone a thousand years ago had guessed the existence of radiowaves. Not through observation, not through logic. Just guessed. That wouldn't be science!
Posted by: David Ratnasabapathy | September 25, 2007 3:03 AM
Oops my bad. Put the closing blockquote in the wrong place.
Posted by: David Ratnasabapathy | September 25, 2007 3:05 AM
No. Those may well be among the factors which led to your personal atheism but they are not what atheism itself is about. Similarly your passions aren't because you are an atheist. Your atheism is largely irrelevant to the things you list.
Posted by: SEF | September 25, 2007 4:09 AM
Maybe what PZ meant to say was "but the NEW atheism isn't about nothing..."
While I mean this as a bit of a mediocre joke, I do think that what PZ is talking about has more to do with the current social movement than with the history and literal meaning of the word.
Whether thats clear, or good, or whatever I'll leave to everyone else to argue over here in the thread. But, as for me, I agree with PZ. And when someone talks about atheism, it should be inexorably tied up with everything that PZ espouses, literal translation aside.
Posted by: MIchael | September 25, 2007 5:22 AM
Hey, this PZ guy can really write. Great stuff.
And to jeh, #41:
My favorite Emo Philips joke is:
"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me."
Posted by: Drad Frantle | September 25, 2007 5:22 AM
@Brownian (#27)
Oh Lord Jesus Christ, if you truly do exist, please send me a representative of your faith who is not a complete and utter moron, ignorant of history and humanity.
Sorry, but if you are too lazy to get your butt out of your armchair and moving, you shouldn't complain that people don't crawl behind you and up your a**
Small hint: Being too butt lazy to actually search for something isn't evidence of its non-existence.
Posted by: Oliver | September 25, 2007 6:03 AM
Brownian,
"yon fuckwit"!!!! What a wonderfully descriptive phrase! May I have your permission to use that in my daily discourse?
Posted by: Duff | September 25, 2007 6:26 AM