Pharyngula

That holy flail

Guilt-ridden Christian: If I don’t obey God, he’s going to make me suffer for all eternity.

Evil-angelical Christian: I don’t make you obey God, I’ll be responsible for your eternal suffering.

That link will take you to a despicably manipulative video on GodTube — a dramatized letter from Hell in which a young fellow about to be thrown into the Lake of Fire screams at his still living, Christian friend for not doing enough to save him. It is genuinely vile. It is an attempt to turn a positive social value, friendship, into a rationale for browbeating people into abandoning reason and accepting a superstitious lie.

Christianity is all about death, suffering, fear, guilt, and coercion. It’s a damnable doctrine that preys on the good people want to do and turns it into a corrupting servility to a wretched dogma.

Comments

  1. #1 Brownian, OM
    October 30, 2007

    As someone who was raised Catholic, the question of whether or not God existed personally went hand-in-hand with whether or not he was worthy of worship.

    It was thoughts of hell that caused me to conclude that he was a monstrous, despicable being whom I would be proud to stand toe-to-toe with and tell off just before being thrown in the lake of fire with all the rest of the good people being punished for the most trivial and capricious reasons.

    Thanks, you evangelical fuckers, for again reminding me how much derision, scorn, and disgust your vision of God deserves.

  2. #2 Brownian, OM
    October 30, 2007

    There’s also a lot of stuff about love, redemption, and salvation, but I guess it doesn’t fit your overarching hypothesis that religion is 100% evil.

    People keep using that word, Love. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    By no definition of love does anything your sick fucking deity do qualify.

  3. #3 Brownian, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Well then, notthedroids, give us the peace, love, and understanding version, if it exists.

  4. #4 Brownian, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Stop it, guys.

    We’re all waiting with bated breath for notthedroids to do the selective mental gymnastics required to winkle out the love, redemption, and salvation parts of the torture cult called Christianity.

  5. #5 Moses
    October 30, 2007

    It was thoughts of hell that caused me to conclude that he was a monstrous, despicable being whom I would be proud to stand toe-to-toe with and tell off just before being thrown in the lake of fire with all the rest of the good people being punished for the most trivial and capricious reasons.

    Posted by: Brownian, OM | October 30, 2007 2:24 PM

    Yeah, I always thought that was the dog’s bollocks. You had to live your life in fear just incase you commited some trivial sin of which you weren’t aware. Imagine my surprise when I found out that my suits were shatnez, which meant I was as revolting as a homosexual, or a person at the Red Lobster all you can eat shrimp bar, to The Lord, Thy God!

    Personally I think literalistic Christians need to, from a very young age, follow Matthew 19:12 which says: “There are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.”

    I’m all for it. They’ll go to heaven and they won’t reproduce another generation of jagoffs; allowing my descendants to live unfettered of their bronze age religious whack-doodlery.

  6. #6 heddle
    October 30, 2007

    A hideous, theologically unsound video.

    The truth is that as a Christian I am neither guilt ridden nor responsible for your salvation, which will happen (or not) in spite of what I do (or don’t do) not because of it. I am only asked to present the gospel, not talk you into it, though I would of course be happy to talk to any interested person at great length. I’ll have to answer for refusing to present the gospel, but my zealousness or laziness will have no effect on the number saved.

    Brownian, OM wrote:

    It was thoughts of hell that caused me to conclude that he was a monstrous, despicable being whom I would be proud to stand toe-to-toe with and tell off just before being thrown in the lake of fire with all the rest of the good people being punished for the most trivial and capricious reasons.
    Thanks, you evangelical fuckers, for again reminding me how much derision, scorn, and disgust your vision of God deserves.

    This is, of course, cheap false bravado. An honest atheist would say: there is no hell, so I’ll face no judgment and yet speculate that if, to their surprise, they do face judgment and a worst-case hell scenario, they would plead for mercy and cry like a baby rather than proudly doing a full-gainer into the fiery lake. Your words ring false.

  7. #7 Brownian, OM
    October 30, 2007

    “Well then, notthedroids, give us the peace, love, and understanding version, if it exists.”

    The Beatitudes, 1 Corinthians 13, Mark 12:28-35, I could go on.

    Is that seriously what passes for thinking among you people? I can’t believe you can get to work in the morning without maiming yourself through some incredible act of stupidity. You might as well say Christianity is about donkeys, since the bible refers to them innumerable times.

    Maybe you should go on, and tell us how Christianity is about these things, rather than just referring to them in a passage or two.

    Furthermore, you’ve got the weight of all the opposing ideas. If an entity claims to love you five hundred times and then threatens to torture you if you don’t aquiesce to its whims even once, the sum idea is that this entity is not showing love. It’s attempting to show dominance and control.

    Maybe you might be able to pull some comparison to parenting (though loving parents punish their children to prevent future harmful acts, not after the fact as the price of disobedience), but then doesn’t one of the quotations you provided say “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things”?

    Why don’t you people grow the fuck up and take an honest look at the psychopathy you’re defending as God?

  8. #8 Brownian, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Posts like #34 are the reason I keep nominating Dustin for a Molly every month.

  9. #9 Brownian, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Oh fuck, Twaddle’s back.

    This is, of course, cheap false bravado. An honest atheist would say: there is no hell, so I’ll face no judgment and yet speculate that if, to their surprise, they do face judgment and a worst-case hell scenario, they would plead for mercy and cry like a baby rather than proudly doing a full-gainer into the fiery lake. Your words ring false.

    Read the first part of the quote, where I mention being raised Catholic, fuckwit. I wasn’t an atheist yet then.

    You’re stupid and you bore me. Please don’t respond to my comments, since you lack the modicum of intelligence to understand them.

  10. #10 Blake Stacey
    October 30, 2007

    Notice that ANGELS are dragging people to the pits of hell? Is this a common interpretation? (Sandman fans notwithstanding?)

    Man, I hate being told that I’m notwithstanding.

  11. #11 heddle
    October 30, 2007

    Rey Fox,

    I agree with you. Of course it doesn’t scare you, since you don’t believe in it. It would be silly to fear something we deny. I’m not afraid that I’ll wake up in the afterlife to find Mohammed glaring at me and asking why I proclaimed him a false prophet. But if I understand correctly at least you acknowledge, unlike Brownian who has no intellectual honesty (or much intellect, based on his writing), that if the worst case scenario is true you would not swagger up to the lake and leap in.

    Windy,
    Exactly my point.

  12. #12 Brownian, OM
    October 30, 2007

    if they did I end up in the lake no matter what, because I could never honestly love that sort of God.

    Exactly.

  13. #13 Brownian, OM
    October 30, 2007

    unlike Brownian who has no intellectual honesty (or much intellect, based on his writing)

    It would appear that Twaddle, despite his protestations in some earlier post, is not beyond the dozens of the schoolyard. Intellectually honest indeed.

    Look, if God exists, and is indeed the asshole Christians claim he is, then somebody needs to stand up and tell him to go fuck himself. (In fact, didn’t one Angel do exactly that and get rewarded with the majority of human souls for his disobedience?)

    Besides, if hell is indeed so scary as to be beyond comprehension, then it cannot be any more terrifying than any other death already envisioned by living people. Since we have accounts of people heading to their tortuous, painful deaths with heads proudly held high, how is it so impossible to believe that an individual wouldn’t be able to do the same whilst facing the Lake of Fire? (Especially if the very existence of the Lake of Fire is proof that God deserves neither respect nor worship?)

  14. #14 JimC
    October 30, 2007

    It would be silly to fear something we deny.

    Not denying, not seeing any evidence there for even remote attempt at denial.

    Brownian who has no intellectual honesty (or much intellect, based on his writing),

    Honestly heddle are you the person who should be making comments about peoples intellectual honesty the way you make arguments a cling to such irrational notions?

    How can a person like yourself question anyone’s intellect based on the garbage you spew here and elsewhere?

    Not saying you can’t or aren’t welcome but it just seems to make you a hypocrite many times over. Perhaps you should work on your own honestly and intellect before casting stones. Brownian(who I don’t know) is at least seemingly intelligent and consistent.

    Also seems like he actually has a heart for his fellow man, something you abjectly always seem to lack.

  15. #15 Uber
    October 30, 2007

    Besides, if hell is indeed so scary as to be beyond comprehension, then it cannot be any more terrifying than any other death already envisioned by living people. Since we have accounts of people heading to their tortuous, painful deaths with heads proudly held high, how is it so impossible to believe that an individual wouldn’t be able to do the same whilst facing the Lake of Fire? (Especially if the very existence of the Lake of Fire is proof that God deserves neither respect nor worship?)

    Very good paragraph and an excellent point. I think heddle perhaps is (revealing maybe) letting us see how he reacts and is not capable of getting past his own fear.

    Not every man is cowardly. Many people have gone to certain and painful deaths for what they believed to be true. This fanciful scenario is much like those.

    I don’t see any intellectual dishonesty here. Perhaps it would be for a person like heddle(I don’t mean that as an insult)who would cry and beg for mercy and not for an individual like Brownian.

    Takes all types.

  16. #16 Brownian, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Thanks for sticking up for me, JimC, but in fairness, my response to Twaddle in comment #47 was an overreaction.

    These goddamn torture-obsessed fundies just get my knickers all a-knotted, which really hurts when you’re as hirsute as I am.

  17. #17 Dave
    October 30, 2007

    But if I understand correctly at least you acknowledge, unlike Brownian who has no intellectual honesty (or much intellect, based on his writing), that if the worst case scenario is true you would not swagger up to the lake and leap in.

    I dont understand where you see a lack of intellectual honesty in Brownian’s writings. Like him, if the emotionally stunted cosmic schoolyard bully so many Christians envision is the high muckymuck afterall, I hope that I may have the volition and strength to spit in his eye before he casts me into the lake of oblivion. I fear (but not much since I dont think its going to happen) that I would be weak and piss my pants and cry for mercy. I expect that you do not understand this position at all, thats OK, I only ask that you accept my word that I truly do hold it.

  18. #18 Moses
    October 30, 2007

    But if I understand correctly at least you acknowledge, unlike Brownian who has no intellectual honesty (or much intellect, based on his writing), that if the worst case scenario is true you would not swagger up to the lake and leap in.

    Windy,
    Exactly my point.

    Posted by: heddle | October 30, 2007 3:54 PM

    Coming from a man who is so intellectually dishonest he refuses to accept, or even research, the origins of his religion, though he’s been challenged multiple times in the past AND lives in this giant logical fallacy deriving from the anthropomorphic principle of the “fined tuned universe”… What a load of intellectually dishonest, self-serving crap. Mr. Heddle may not be stupid, after all he does apparently have the intellect to earn a PhD, but he’s damn ignorant of the non-astronomy subjects, including his religion, of which he speaks and lives a life of such complete and utter denial that he’s shown himself to be ludicrous in most every debate in which he has engaged.

  19. #19 Brownian, OM
    October 30, 2007

    It is debatable whether the Jesus of the gospels even believed in hell per se (i.e. eternal fire and brimstone, Dante’s Inferno, etc). That is a debate, like the historicity of Jesus, that I won’t even touch.

    This strikes me as the type of intellectual honesty Twaddle was talking about.

    However, Stogoe was probably talking about John 5:19-30

    I googled Jesus + Hell, since I couldn’t remember the exact passages where Jesus mentions things like brimstone and fire, and found this page, which is much like the VIDEO + RETARDED!!

    Anyways, Jesus describes hell as fire, brimstone, and eternal torment a number of times, many of which can be found on this page.

  20. #20 Brownian, OM
    October 30, 2007

    It is debatable whether the Jesus of the gospels even believed in hell per se (i.e. eternal fire and brimstone, Dante’s Inferno, etc). That is a debate, like the historicity of Jesus, that I won’t even touch.

    This strikes me as the type of intellectual honesty Twaddle was talking about.

    However, Stogoe was probably talking about John 5:19-30

    I googled Jesus + Hell, since I couldn’t remember the exact passages where Jesus mentions things like brimstone and fire, and found this page, which is much like the VIDEO + RETARDED!!

  21. #21 Brownian, OM
    October 30, 2007

    And some of the passages in which Jesus describes hell as fire, brimstone, and eternal torment can be found on this page.

  22. #22 Justin Moretti
    October 30, 2007

    I was for a time fiercely Catholic (chosen as an adult of my own free will, having successfully rejected churchgoing as a child for everything except cultural events such as weddings and funerals), and I came across that “believers are responsible for the damnation of the souls they fail to convert” argument as a result of being talked to by the Evangelical community at my university.

    It was then, and remains in my current agnostic incarnation, no less than a spiritual and theological obscenity. The Catholics I went with emphasized love, kindness and service to one’s fellow humans for their own positive sake, using the most beneficial aspects of Christ (e.g. his healing ministry; his smackdown on the Pharisees – the fundies of his era) and the NT epistles as an example, and there was no emphasis on Hell, the way there or the way out. You did the positive things because they were of benefit to yourself (vis a vis growth as a human being) and to your fellow humanity, not because you were motivated by fear of Hell. And if you fucked up and were truly repentant, well, God forgives all. (But that doesn’t mean you didn’t have to pay the secular price, if you’d broken the law in the process.)

    Besides, if you’re loving God and Humanity only through fear of Hell, you’re not really loving God and Humanity – and you’ll burn. As for the nonbelievers, or – like Myers, Hitchens and Dawkins and their followers – the rejectors, I have in mind what Christ said to the Pharisees: “Because of you, the Gentiles say evil things about God.” And I always had the idea that He didn’t hold those Gentiles responsible for it; their rejection of religion was understandable.

    Ultimately I believe it comes down to this – if, at the end of your life, you were faced with a being of unlimited knowledge and capability (including that of creating entire universes in situ, even if it did not so create this one) and infinite love, would you acknowledge it (I do not say “bow to it”) or turn your back on it?

    Because if you would turn your back on love, truth (including knowledge) and beauty in their highest forms, then you deserve to burn, just as Jerry Falwell is doubtless now doing, and just as Rev. Fred Phelps will do when his time comes. And if it turns out that the Bible was perverted into a mind-raping hatefest by vested interests in the interests of control, and that the truth is far more merciful, there is no way that those misled by a lie would be incinerated for it. The atheists may be on firmer ground, for rejecting God as a hateful abusive parent, than the Fundies for uncritically swallowing or perverting Him.

  23. #23 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Well then, notthedroids, give us the peace, love, and understanding version, if it exists.

    It does exist. It’s the version of (arguably) Catholicism where hell is consciously (!) self-chosen isolation from God and probably empty, and the devil most likely does not exist in the first place. It’s quite common in Europe.

    (I’ve left it because it still hangs in the air. I’m not capable of believing without evidence.)

  24. #24 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Well then, notthedroids, give us the peace, love, and understanding version, if it exists.

    It does exist. It’s the version of (arguably) Catholicism where hell is consciously (!) self-chosen isolation from God and probably empty, and the devil most likely does not exist in the first place. It’s quite common in Europe.

    (I’ve left it because it still hangs in the air. I’m not capable of believing without evidence.)

  25. #25 woozy
    October 30, 2007

    #29

    Brownian, OM wrote:

    It was thoughts of hell that caused me to conclude that he was a monstrous, despicable being whom I would be proud to stand toe-to-toe with and tell off just before being thrown in the lake of fire with all the rest of the good people being punished for the most trivial and capricious reasons. Thanks, you evangelical fuckers, for again reminding me how much derision, scorn, and disgust your vision of God deserves.

    This is, of course, cheap false bravado. An honest atheist would say: there is no hell, so I’ll face no judgment and yet speculate that if, to their surprise, they do face judgment and a worst-case hell scenario, they would plead for mercy and cry like a baby rather than proudly doing a full-gainer into the fiery lake. Your words ring false.

    Well, if it makes you feel better, I will make no claims about my belief in my bravery.

    You are right. I probably would plead and cry for mercy like a baby.

    I’m pretty sure that if Tony Soprano dragged me in and started chocking me with a piano wire I’d probably plead and cry like a baby and start kissing hes ass in utter pitifull wimpishness.

    I’ve always been respectful of the brave souls in the Nazi Germany who faced death expressing the contempt to their tormentors that they deserve. I know I’d never be that brave.

    If it turns out that both you and I are wrong about hell and it turns out there is no God but Satan who rules the universe and tossing us into the fire for not serving him, I’d probably wimper and cry like a baby. However if you are going to assume that of me, I’m going to assume the same of you and imagine you will wimper and cry like a baby and beg forgiveness from Satan as well.

    However, nothing is going to convince me that in any of those cases the perpetuators are anything but cowardly, evil, sadistic bastards.

    If however you are going to claim that you actually have the bravery to stand up to the assholes Tony Soprano, SS officers, and the Asshole Satan, I don’t see any reason you should assume Brownian wouldn’t have the bravery to stand up to the Asshole God.

    Point is, using hell as a threat and punishment and following through, makes anyone gangster, nazi, devil, or god a sadistic, evil, cowardly bastard. Whether we cower and wimper in fear, stand up and spit in his eye, or actually convert out of fear is irrelevant to our verdict of this bully.

  26. #26 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007

    overwrought pablum intended to terrify mouth-breathers into more vigorous evangelism.

    I can’t see any better way of saying it than that.

  27. #27 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007

    Go lions!

    ditto.

    we need more free-roaming large predators.

  28. #28 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007

    so…

    which evangelical vid is worse:

    this one, or the “God Hates the World” rework done by the Phelpsians?

    this one seems more insidious, but the other… it’s like a group of zombies gnashing their teeth.

    both good for Halloween scares.

    hey PZ, could you repost the link to the Westboro vid where the little girl sings how god hates the world so much again?

  29. #29 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Every mural of damnation I’ve ever seen has a line of sinners walking placidly towards the fire where some angel pushes them in.

    Is that protestant or something? In Catholic depictions you only ever see devils. That said, most of them are between 300 and 800 years old, and I don’t think any are younger than 300.

    And Dustin for Molly. Just to be on the safe side. :-> Besides, he still isn’t in the Order.

    Hey, did you forget all those godless scientists you’ll find down there? I call dibs on them for my Army of Darkness!

    Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

    <switch universe>

    <Imperial March>

  30. #30 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Every mural of damnation I’ve ever seen has a line of sinners walking placidly towards the fire where some angel pushes them in.

    Is that protestant or something? In Catholic depictions you only ever see devils. That said, most of them are between 300 and 800 years old, and I don’t think any are younger than 300.

    And Dustin for Molly. Just to be on the safe side. :-> Besides, he still isn’t in the Order.

    Hey, did you forget all those godless scientists you’ll find down there? I call dibs on them for my Army of Darkness!

    Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

    <switch universe>

    <Imperial March>

  31. #31 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007

    I don’t see any reason you should assume Brownian wouldn’t have the bravery to stand up to the Asshole God.

    Hell, Job did.

  32. #32 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007

    Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

    All your base r belong to us.

  33. #33 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Why would God create it if it’s going to be empty?

    Tsss. How silly, asking a question on why God would or would not do something. God’s Ways are ineffable.
    :-)

  34. #34 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Why would God create it if it’s going to be empty?

    Tsss. How silly, asking a question on why God would or would not do something. God’s Ways are ineffable.
    :-)

  35. #35 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Oh yeah, that’s what I should have thought of first.

    HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMEN !!
    ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US.
    YOU ARE ON THE WAY TO DESTRUCTION.

    YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO SURVIVE MAKE YOUR TIME.
    HA HA HA HA ….

    Here is the whole thing.

    FOR GREAT JUSTICE.

  36. #36 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Oh yeah, that’s what I should have thought of first.

    HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMEN !!
    ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US.
    YOU ARE ON THE WAY TO DESTRUCTION.

    YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO SURVIVE MAKE YOUR TIME.
    HA HA HA HA ….

    Here is the whole thing.

    FOR GREAT JUSTICE.

  37. #37 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007

    You did the positive things because they were of benefit to yourself (vis a vis growth as a human being) and to your fellow humanity, not because you were motivated by fear of Hell.

    welcome to the world of secular humanism. Nothing those Catholics taught you doesn’t exist outside of catholic doctrine.

    now you just need to strip away the bullshit.

  38. #38 Dahan
    October 30, 2007

    Ichthyic said

    “…Go lions!
    ditto.
    we need more free-roaming large predators.”

    Actually, I meant in the Christian Vs sense, but sure, I could back some bick cats outside of the stadiums too.

  39. #39 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    I do not believe such a cruel and capricious being exists, but if they did I end up in the lake no matter what, because I could never honestly love that sort of God.

    This simply bears repeating.

    just as Jerry Falwell is doubtless now doing

    If you say “doubtless”, you aren’t an agnostic! :-)

    I’d rather my best friend had stopped me from drinking and driving, to be perfectly honest….

    ROTFL!!! That’s the obvious point, and it took all the way to comment 107 for someone to see it…

  40. #40 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    I do not believe such a cruel and capricious being exists, but if they did I end up in the lake no matter what, because I could never honestly love that sort of God.

    This simply bears repeating.

    just as Jerry Falwell is doubtless now doing

    If you say “doubtless”, you aren’t an agnostic! :-)

    I’d rather my best friend had stopped me from drinking and driving, to be perfectly honest….

    ROTFL!!! That’s the obvious point, and it took all the way to comment 107 for someone to see it…

  41. #41 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Quick, everyone who’s ever had their opinion changed by a blog post raise their hand!

    Me. Can’t remember any specific incident, but it does happen once in a while.

    We are also reminded regularly that several deconversions have happened because of this blog.

  42. #42 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Quick, everyone who’s ever had their opinion changed by a blog post raise their hand!

    Me. Can’t remember any specific incident, but it does happen once in a while.

    We are also reminded regularly that several deconversions have happened because of this blog.

  43. #43 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Well, you self-proclaimed Knight of God, I read those same quotes and am left seriously considering the possibility that Thomas Aquinas was actually writing a satire, Terry Pratchett-style. His Aristotelian logic is funny.

    BTW, what if the Sumerians were right? Then your shadow will eat mud in the dark, depressing underworld for all eternity — no matter what you faith, no matter what your works. Go ahead, disprove that.

  44. #44 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    Well, you self-proclaimed Knight of God, I read those same quotes and am left seriously considering the possibility that Thomas Aquinas was actually writing a satire, Terry Pratchett-style. His Aristotelian logic is funny.

    BTW, what if the Sumerians were right? Then your shadow will eat mud in the dark, depressing underworld for all eternity — no matter what you faith, no matter what your works. Go ahead, disprove that.

  45. #45 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007

    Indeed, I expect to chortle with glee when I finally observe you all mired in a pool of shit in Malebolge.

    Eques Dei?

    I rather think you an

    Equus Puga

  46. #46 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007

    Quick, everyone who’s ever had their opinion changed by a blog post raise their hand!

    well, my opinion of you was actually formed by that post, so…

    If I conclude you’re an idiot does that invalidate your entire post?

  47. #47 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    I rather think you an

    Equus Puga

    A what horse?

  48. #48 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 30, 2007

    I rather think you an

    Equus Puga

    A what horse?

  49. #49 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007

    A what horse?

    Puga=buttocks.

    so…

    horse ass (without the possessive)

    >horse’s ass

    i figured it would be obvious.

  50. #50 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007

    Does anyone know the author and title of an SF story inspired by the myth of St Sebastian, the human pincushion, in which it turns out there is a god, but it enjoys torture, disasters and misery?

    hmm, that sounds like characters/plot from the Hellraiser series.

    “Pinhead” being the main character, and “Leviathan” being the god of torture and misery represented in the series.

    probably not what you were thinking of, but derivative.

  51. #51 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007


    It’s only the Mi-Go, or “Fungi from Yuggoth” (aka Pluto), that put brains in jars (or “cylinders”), and that is so they can be transported through space, and the occupants are still fully conscious and in no pain…

    Is that where they got the idea for heads in jars for Futurama?

  52. #52 noncarborundum
    October 30, 2007
    I rather think you an
    Equus Puga

    A what horse?

    Ichthyic is indulging in a bit of dog Latin. Equus should be in the genitive case, and puga often appeared in the plural, thus: puga equi or pugae equi.

    puga, -ae, is an alternate spelling of pyga, a word for “rump, buttocks” borrowed from Greek (compare the English word “callipygian”, having well-shaped buttocks, from Greek kallos, beautiful, and pyg?, buttocks).

  53. #53 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007

    dog Latin…

    yes, but it didn’t fit as well pattern-wise with the original Eques Dei that I was mocking.

    like I said, i figured anybody that knew latin would work it out. I didn’t feel I would be insulting the language, since it’s dead anyway.

    besides, better than pig latin, right?

  54. #54 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007

    Malebolge?

    what, you never read Spawn?

    :p

    actually, I think it refers to some level of hell.

    theomachoi

    I think the poster might have been referring to theomachia:

    http://history.wisc.edu/sommerville/367/Goodwin%20Theomachia.htm

    “the grand imprudence of men running the hazard of fighting against God”

    I expect to be struck by lighting any day now…

  55. #55 Ichthyic
    October 30, 2007

    Not that that’s anything to fear, particularly.

    oh noes, I was a shakin’ most assuredly.
    ;)

    that’ll teach me to ignore my old prof’s advice to take a course in Latin when I was at Berkeley.

  56. #56 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    hope that you realize in your final fizzling thoughts that you are not about to enter some other-worldly kingdom, but that you are merely in the process of forever ceasing to be, and that all the experiences you might otherwise have known are now eternally unattainable, for you spent your entire existence blindly devoted to a phantasm, and so you missed your only opportunity to actually live.

    perfect.

  57. #57 Brownian, OM
    October 31, 2007

    Did someone call my name? I thought I heard ‘stooped, knuckle-dragging Pharyngulite.’

    Oh, it was just a troll.

    Never mind.

    Cue overly verbose hubris in 5…4…3…2….

  58. #58 Brownian, OM
    October 31, 2007

    That the lot of you are losers and posers?

    Posers?

    Posers?

    I know we’re supposed to set our clocks back this weekend, but do we have to set them back to 1988? I hope Blockbuster’s still got a copy of Gleaming the Cube.

  59. #59 Brownian, OM
    October 31, 2007

    I‘d like pictograms.

    What about everybody else? Who here would rather Eques Dei post in pictograms than in words?

    From now on, please restrict your posts to pictograms only, Eques.

  60. #60 ?????? ?????????? ?????????
    October 31, 2007

    I forgot YouTube. YouTube is also a potentially valid medium for conversion and revelatory experiences. And television.

    Dustin, you forgot “?????? ??????!”

  61. #61 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    To play Demon-raping-Theist advocate, why would believing in a telemarketing fiction be any less valid than be believing in the original text in context? So far as I can tell, the main reason one believes is because deep down they just know and it feels right. This is on par with deep down knowing that I am a Pepsi person.

    inarguable logic, except for the part that pepsi sucks.

    all hail coke!

    :p

    (pepsi drinkers go to a special fizzy, flavorless, hell).

    don’t let your friends drink pepsi.

  62. #62 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    the central point of Christianity is to believe that God created the universe for a specific reason

    without defining what that reason was. The credulous then get to fill in the blank (sorry, gap).

  63. #63 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    Hopefully, there comes a time when a person outgrows that approach. Much of what you all talk about is 14th century Catholicism.It has little to do with genuine spirituality.

    do tell, True Scottsman.

  64. #64 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    Some scientists and Philosophers are now asking, was the universe we live in created so that somewhere, sometime, a superior type of intelligence (not quite ours yet, but maybe us one day, or another more advanced civilization on another planet) will emerge so as to create a new universe, with the same purpose.

    like i said, the credulous get to fill in the gap.

  65. #65 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    Popular cosmology and transhumanism are like LSD for people who don’t want to do drugs.

    makes me wonder what they would be like ON drugs.

    have you ever really *looked* at your thumb, man?

  66. #66 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    “Perhaps”.

    I prefer:

    until proven otherwise.

    er, just shorter azky, IOW.

  67. #67 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    Plausability you might say ?

    indeed.

    maybe one day we will artificially create a functional unicorn.

    It hardly makes the argument that fictional ones exist plausible, or worthy of more than “look at your thumb” attention.

  68. #68 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    …not to say navel gazing isn’t sometimes fun to indulge in, but taking it to the step of practical philosophy is the point I would stop at.

  69. #69 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 31, 2007

    Comment 240 has saved my day! That’s the right attitude! I’m still laughing! :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

    so…

    horse ass (without the possessive)

    >horse’s ass

    i figured it would be obvious.

    Oh, that’s not obvious at all, because it isn’t how Latin works. Either you use the genitive, “horse’s ass”: puga equi (word order unimportant). Or you use the compound noun, “horse ass” (note that this is a single word, in spite of being written with a space in the middle): Latin is bad at compounding, but equopuga would probably have been understood.

    And they’re supposed to be delighted to observe these tortures?

    Indirectly. They’re supposed to be delighted in their own fate, by comparing it “perfectly” to the tortures they’re “perfectly” observing. That’s in the part before the boldened text.

    It’s Aristotelian logic again. The point of the whole Summa Theologica is to demonstrate that 1) Aristotelian philosophy and Christianity don’t contradict each other and 2) Christianity is utterly logical. With some distortions to both Aristotelian philosophy and Christianity, it succeeds in both…

    Latin word order is almost infinitely flexible.

    Not “almost”.

    And in this heaven/hell Muzak plays non-stop. Heaven/hell is kinda like being locked eternally in a shopping mall. Which place it is for you depends on your taste or lack thereof.

    NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

    I’m not sure, but the Sumerian underworld could be preferable.

    I particularly liked how the poor damned soul could smell both the sulfur AND the brimstone.

    ROTFL!!!

    The lake of fire,the book of life,the accountant’s bridge,and the concept of purgatory are all the original ideas of Zoroaster.

    What! Even purgatory?

  70. #70 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 31, 2007

    Comment 240 has saved my day! That’s the right attitude! I’m still laughing! :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

    so…

    horse ass (without the possessive)

    >horse’s ass

    i figured it would be obvious.

    Oh, that’s not obvious at all, because it isn’t how Latin works. Either you use the genitive, “horse’s ass”: puga equi (word order unimportant). Or you use the compound noun, “horse ass” (note that this is a single word, in spite of being written with a space in the middle): Latin is bad at compounding, but equopuga would probably have been understood.

    And they’re supposed to be delighted to observe these tortures?

    Indirectly. They’re supposed to be delighted in their own fate, by comparing it “perfectly” to the tortures they’re “perfectly” observing. That’s in the part before the boldened text.

    It’s Aristotelian logic again. The point of the whole Summa Theologica is to demonstrate that 1) Aristotelian philosophy and Christianity don’t contradict each other and 2) Christianity is utterly logical. With some distortions to both Aristotelian philosophy and Christianity, it succeeds in both…

    Latin word order is almost infinitely flexible.

    Not “almost”.

    And in this heaven/hell Muzak plays non-stop. Heaven/hell is kinda like being locked eternally in a shopping mall. Which place it is for you depends on your taste or lack thereof.

    NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

    I’m not sure, but the Sumerian underworld could be preferable.

    I particularly liked how the poor damned soul could smell both the sulfur AND the brimstone.

    ROTFL!!!

    The lake of fire,the book of life,the accountant’s bridge,and the concept of purgatory are all the original ideas of Zoroaster.

    What! Even purgatory?

  71. #71 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 31, 2007

    Much of what you all talk about is 14th century Catholicism.It has little to do with genuine spirituality.

    You say “spirituality” as if it were a good thing…

    but rather than to say, I don’t believe that this is the explanation or it’s contrary, shouldn’t the default position be, “Perhaps”.

    Is it falsifiable?

    If not, the default position is “pffft”.

  72. #72 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 31, 2007

    Much of what you all talk about is 14th century Catholicism.It has little to do with genuine spirituality.

    You say “spirituality” as if it were a good thing…

    but rather than to say, I don’t believe that this is the explanation or it’s contrary, shouldn’t the default position be, “Perhaps”.

    Is it falsifiable?

    If not, the default position is “pffft”.

  73. #73 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 31, 2007

    Now ask yourself the oposite, how plausible is it that it will never happen.

    Go back 100 years. Hey, just go back 50 years. And then try to predict the present. I wish you much fun. Wishing you good luck would be sadistic of me.

    Go back 1000 years. Why try to predict the present? Why bother?

  74. #74 David Marjanovi?, OM
    October 31, 2007

    Now ask yourself the oposite, how plausible is it that it will never happen.

    Go back 100 years. Hey, just go back 50 years. And then try to predict the present. I wish you much fun. Wishing you good luck would be sadistic of me.

    Go back 1000 years. Why try to predict the present? Why bother?

  75. #75 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    Imagine…

    like i said, navel gazing is fun.

  76. #76 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    It’s been done. It’s even been patented.

    ooh, millions of little girls will want one, I bet.

    so, what was the start point?

    do you recall where it is documented?

  77. #77 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    you don’t mean THIS, do you?

    http://www.lair2000.net/Unicorn_Dreams/Unicorns_Man_Made/unicorns_man_made.html

    *whispers*
    “It’s just a model.”

  78. #78 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    string theory

    string theory is mathematically derivative at least, IIRC.

    but, yes, er, “i ask” the same questions; however i do tend to give more “eartime” to derivative hypotheses than i do entirely fictional ones, which i suppose goes back to the issue of plausibility.

    …if you were looking for that kind of distinction.

    also note I doubt seriously I have the energy to engage in much navel gazing at the moment, so I would have to beg your pardon if you wish to engage in an OT discussion of string theory or whatnot.

    another time and place, maybe.

  79. #79 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    I thought all the harcore back and forth posting was just some pent up sexual aggression.

    well, there ya go then, you had your opinion changed by a blog post.

    and let me just add as to your original thought:

    *eeew*

  80. #80 Ichthyic
    October 31, 2007

    The Universalist contention seems to be that those human-constructed towers of moral Babel cancel out the numerous explicit declarations from Jesus that anyone who did not obey him would be tortured eternally.

    cancel out?

    what, is there some sort of mathematical proof?

    show your work.

  81. #81 ?????? ????????????
    November 1, 2007

    …and her “eyeballs can kill” post.

    Well… they can!

  82. #82 Arnaud
    November 1, 2007

    Ichthyic,

    If you are still around here is what you asked for earlier on.

  83. #83 David Marjanovi?, OM
    November 1, 2007

    Ichtyic, you are right, it’s not falsifiable, but it’s also not a scientific theory.

    Not “also”. That is why it isn’t science.

    It’s also why the strong anthropic principle isn’t science. It’s religion. (It’s also not needed to explain anything.)

    ————–

    Dies irae, dies illa,
    Solvet saeclum in favilla,
    Teste David cum Sibylla.
    Quantum tremor est futurus,
    Quando judex est venturus,
    Cuncta stricte discussurus.

    The day of wrath, that day,
    Will dissolve the century (everything that isn’t eternal?) into ash,
    ???by means of the witness David with Sibylla???.
    How much trembling is to happen
    when the judge is to come
    and to strictly beat everything apart.

    And there shall be great smashing, utter trouncing, and pure pwnage, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth…

    Pretty scary stuff.

    Have you seen Conan the Destroyer?

    —————

    Yes, “almost”. I was going to write “is infinitely flexible” before it occurred to me that a preposition always precedes the noun it governs (or, at least, that the violation of this order is so rare that I’ve never seen it happen).

    Good point. I wouldn’t be surprised if it happens in poetry anyway (the occasional postposition wouldn’t be hard to understand), but I can’t think of an example, and I haven’t found any here. But then, it seems prepositions are rare in Latin poetry in the first place! :-)

    Apparently, however, there is at least one language in Australia that has prepositions and can put them anywhere.

    ————-

    J Myers, one or two more comments like 304, and you get your first Molly nomination.

  84. #84 David Marjanovi?, OM
    November 1, 2007

    Ichtyic, you are right, it’s not falsifiable, but it’s also not a scientific theory.

    Not “also”. That is why it isn’t science.

    It’s also why the strong anthropic principle isn’t science. It’s religion. (It’s also not needed to explain anything.)

    ————–

    Dies irae, dies illa,
    Solvet saeclum in favilla,
    Teste David cum Sibylla.
    Quantum tremor est futurus,
    Quando judex est venturus,
    Cuncta stricte discussurus.

    The day of wrath, that day,
    Will dissolve the century (everything that isn’t eternal?) into ash,
    ???by means of the witness David with Sibylla???.
    How much trembling is to happen
    when the judge is to come
    and to strictly beat everything apart.

    And there shall be great smashing, utter trouncing, and pure pwnage, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth…

    Pretty scary stuff.

    Have you seen Conan the Destroyer?

    —————

    Yes, “almost”. I was going to write “is infinitely flexible” before it occurred to me that a preposition always precedes the noun it governs (or, at least, that the violation of this order is so rare that I’ve never seen it happen).

    Good point. I wouldn’t be surprised if it happens in poetry anyway (the occasional postposition wouldn’t be hard to understand), but I can’t think of an example, and I haven’t found any here. But then, it seems prepositions are rare in Latin poetry in the first place! :-)

    Apparently, however, there is at least one language in Australia that has prepositions and can put them anywhere.

    ————-

    J Myers, one or two more comments like 304, and you get your first Molly nomination.

  85. #85 David Marjanovi?, OM
    November 1, 2007

    Sorry, it’s not simply ash, but ash that is still glowing.

  86. #86 David Marjanovi?, OM
    November 1, 2007

    Sorry, it’s not simply ash, but ash that is still glowing.

  87. #87 Ichthyic
    November 1, 2007

    If you are still around here is what you asked for earlier on.

    yup. that’s the one.

    so… which one is worse, the one in this thread, or the Phelpsian’s entry in the other thread?

    I think we should have a poll.

  88. #88 Ichthyic
    November 1, 2007

    I’m interested in the Bible that actually exists on paper, not the one of your imagination

    not that i ever really cared, but it always seemed to me from “universalist” acquaintances I’ve had in the past that universalism was mostly based on wishful thinking.

    nothing wrong with that, IMO. I’d certainly rather this progression:

    fundamentalist->universalist->agnostic humanist->atheist

    than i would:

    fundamentalist->xian soldier

    regardless of whether there were a few artificial constructs between the fundamentalist and atheist parts.

    After all, it seems pretty unlikely a universalist would have produced the video which is the subject of this thread.

  89. #89 Ichthyic
    November 1, 2007

    …as an addendum, I also always thought that universalism was an acceptable “out” to a fundamentalist who no longer wanted to be a fundamentalist, kinda like I always viewed theistic evolutionism as an acceptable “out” to a YEC/OE creationist.

    logical? rational? meh, not on paper. But at least it’s allows for a small step in the right direction.

  90. #90 Ichthyic
    November 1, 2007

    speaking of holy flails….

    anybody catch the news today that the Westboro Baptists lost their civil case, and had a 11 mill judgment placed against them?

    a small bit of good news, which I’m sure will become another PZ thread later today.

    http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071101/29920_Westboro_Baptist_Cult_Slammed_with_$10.9M_Fine_for_Funeral_Protest.htm

  91. #91 David Marjanovi?, OM
    November 1, 2007

    Oh, the good old abl. abs…. long time no see!

    I Hope You Like Text

    :-D

  92. #92 David Marjanovi?, OM
    November 1, 2007

    Oh, the good old abl. abs…. long time no see!

    I Hope You Like Text

    :-D

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