Pharyngula

Mitt the hypocrite

On the one hand, Mitt Romney wants questions about his lunatic religion off the table; on the other, he thinks representation in government should be proportional to the popularity of their religion, which he uses as an excuse to exclude Muslims for consideration in his cabinet. I don’t think this means he’s going to allow the roughly 10%+ of the population who are atheists/agnostics to be represented, though—after all, he considers only people of faith fit to govern.

Oh, heck, it’s probably not fair to call him a hypocrite. He’s a consistent religious bigot, he’s just unwilling to admit it.

Comments

  1. #1 John McKay
    November 27, 2007

    Now he says that account is wrong. He opposes quotas. “I don’t have boxes that I check off.” He uses his boxes to carry the dog.

  2. #2 Christianjb
    November 27, 2007

    Would he be in favor of Jewish quotas then?

  3. #3 Mrs Tilton
    November 27, 2007

    A particularly distasteful and politically active Roman Catholic priest, Richard Neuhaus, not too long ago argued that it was perfectly legitimate for voters to shun Romney for his weird religion. Asked what he thought about voters similarly shunning a RC candidate, Neuhaus remarked that that was different, because irrational.

    I deplore violence. Still, there’s something stirring in the thought of X proponents of the various sectarianisms, locked in a room with X-1 knives.

  4. #4 Moopheus
    November 27, 2007

    Picking on Romney just because he’s Mormon seems pretty pointless–the next president will almost certainly be a member of some church or other, what the hell difference does it make. That was true of the last 43 presidents too. Some still managed to do a good job in spite of it. In fact, the fact that Romney being Mormon makes the Xtian right squirm is a point in his favor as far as I’m concerned.

  5. #5 jba
    November 27, 2007

    inkadu: “with a different core set of beliefs from the majority population”

    Like what? Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not defending mormonism, it’s a con plain and simple. But it’s not a very differant con than any of the other xian faiths. The *core* beliefs are all pretty much the same. I’m just curious what you think is so differant, not trying to pick a fight.

  6. #6 Carlie
    November 27, 2007

    Mike Huckabee’s devotion to his religion scares me a whole lot more than Romney’s. Mitt has shown that he doesn’t let his religion influence his politics very much, but Huckabee is placing religion in the front and center of his.

  7. #7 inkadu
    November 27, 2007

    jba – Hm. I guess the definition of “core beliefs” is debatable. I was referring to the recent revelation of Jospeh Smith, and the golden discs, and the special reading glasses, and all that nonsense.

    Ok. Just looked up the “mormonism core beliefs mormonism” and there really isn’t anything too different there than a lot of Christian sects.

    Number 10 is the only one that seems explicitly kooky:

    10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

    Of course, when you come right out and say it it looks weird, but most far-right Christians would probably agree to something similar.

    Anyway, thanks for the catch. It doesn’t look as if the core belief of Mormons is that different. So let me vague up my thesis a bit: Mormons are likely stronger believers because their religion is not mainstream.

    Also, if anyone can point to a deist Mormon or an agnostic Mormon, let me know. “Mormon” carries more weight with me than “Christian,” because most Christians never really have to question their beliefs. Also, being a Mormon seems to require a larger investment. Don’t most Mormon men go on missions in their adolescence? It just seems like they’re a much more dedicated bunch than the average person who checks off “Christian” on the survey form.

  8. #8 Kseniya
    November 27, 2007

    Yes the Constitution does say that, but a seat in a presidential cabinet is not an elected office. A president may use any criteria whatsoever to seek appointment of a candidate to his cabinet. Not picking a fight, just saying. ~ Posted by: shiftlessbum

    That would be a good point, if it were true. Article Six reads, in part, thus:

    The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

    Romney’s alleged proposed criteria would and should be judged to be in violation of this article.

    Just sayin’… :-)

    Romney’s a fraud anyway. His solution to the health care problem here in Massachusetts is to lay a tax penalty on the uninsured. How odd that a rich Republican can’t see what’s inherently wrong with that approach. </sarc>

  9. #9 QrazyQat
    November 27, 2007

    Mormons are 2% of the American population, which I would presume using Romney Rules means we should have 5 atheist presidents for every Mormon president. So I say 2-3 atheist presidents and then Romney gets his shot.

    It’s only fair.

  10. #10 chaos_engineer
    November 27, 2007

    Also, if anyone can point to a deist Mormon or an agnostic Mormon, let me know.

    I think I might be an agnostic Mormon. I haven’t seen any compelling evidence that any religion is true, but I do like the Mormon view of the afterlife…you’re allowed to convert after you die, and under certain circumstances you’re allowed to run your own planet. (I would start with a carbon copy of Earth and see all the movies that I won’t have time to see in this lifetime.)

    So I’m hoping that those aspects of Mormonism are true. (Obviously I’m hoping that the racist and sexist aspects are false, and that the moral bar for getting your own planet is set low enough that I can qualify.)

  11. #11 MikeM
    November 27, 2007

    What do you expect from a demented fuckwit?

  12. #12 Marcus Ranum
    November 27, 2007

    I do like the Mormon view of the afterlife…you’re allowed to convert after you die, and under certain circumstances you’re allowed to run your own planet.

    Uh… the mind boggles. That sounds like a contest to see who can think of the bigger stupid.

    Christians: when you die you go sing hosannahs eternally
    Muslims: when you die you get 17 virgins
    Mormons: when you die you get a whole planet
    Me: when you die you get your own UNIVERSE and an Xbox and an iPod and 50 gallons of vaseline

    I win!

  13. #13 MAJeff
    November 27, 2007

    Sure, Willard is a hypocrite. And he believes batshit insanity. But the real knock is that he is a worthless government manager, a hate monger, and a power-mad incompetent.

    We don’t need any more of that, thank you very much.

  14. #14 David Marjanovi?, OM
    November 27, 2007

    Like what? Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not defending mormonism, it’s a con plain and simple. But it’s not a very differant con than any of the other xian faiths. The *core* beliefs are all pretty much the same. I’m just curious what you think is so differant, not trying to pick a fight.

    So what? People have killed each other over the iota that distinguishes homoousios from homoiousios.

    Also, the virgins are 77, not 17.

    There once was a Mormon named Mitt
    Whom some thought was pure hypocrite

    Oh, so the e at the end of hypocrite is a bad joke, like that at the end of intestine?

    <long, drawn-out snarl with exposed canine teeth>

    This guy is right. The English orthography doesn’t need a reform, it needs a bloody revolution.

    BTW, Cuttlefish, you committed a hypercorrectivism. “Who, some thought, was pure hypocrite” is correct, because he, not him, was. :-)

  15. #15 David Marjanovi?, OM
    November 27, 2007

    Like what? Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not defending mormonism, it’s a con plain and simple. But it’s not a very differant con than any of the other xian faiths. The *core* beliefs are all pretty much the same. I’m just curious what you think is so differant, not trying to pick a fight.

    So what? People have killed each other over the iota that distinguishes homoousios from homoiousios.

    Also, the virgins are 77, not 17.

    There once was a Mormon named Mitt
    Whom some thought was pure hypocrite

    Oh, so the e at the end of hypocrite is a bad joke, like that at the end of intestine?

    <long, drawn-out snarl with exposed canine teeth>

    This guy is right. The English orthography doesn’t need a reform, it needs a bloody revolution.

    BTW, Cuttlefish, you committed a hypercorrectivism. “Who, some thought, was pure hypocrite” is correct, because he, not him, was. :-)

  16. #16 Cuttlefish
    November 27, 2007

    David M-OM–

    You are quite correct
    I will hang my head in shame
    And hide in my ink

  17. #17 Azkyroth
    November 27, 2007

    I suppose that’s open to interpretation, but I can NOT believe that Madison et al. meant for the Article to apply only to elected offices. If anything, it should apply more to positions filled by appointment. How easy it would then be for an elected closet theocrat to fill his Cabinet (and Court) with like-minded individuals by simple virtue of their religious alignnment.

    Which, Lawful Evil? ^.^

    And the constitutional passage quoted says “all executive and judicial officers.” It’s hard to see how, with that statement in it, it could be construed as inapplicable to appointed officials.

  18. #18 Uber
    November 27, 2007

    The Catholics at 25% are the largest US sect. There is a history of enmity between them and the Mormons. They both claim to be the one true church, receive divine revelations regularly, and have Popes

    They always overstate their numbers, always remember that fact. Most studies show the claimed numbers to be 1/2 to 1/4 of what they claim.

  19. #19 raven
    November 27, 2007

    Not going to pick on the Mormons too much, but many Xians don’t think they are really Xians. They have some odd beliefs but really, what is a religion without something counterintuitive?

    1. God is married. To Mrs. God. She gets laid a lot and makes spirit babies who cycle to earth and become…(drums, fireworks, lasars) US.

    2. There are many, many Gods. All married. They all have their own planets to fill up and fool around with.

    3. You too can become a God. Just contact the nearest LDS missionaries and they will tell you how. They have 3 afterlives, hell for really bad people only, a middle kingdom for J6P, and the best….become Gods themselves. You have to be married, presumably to another Mormon. The religion puts a lot of pressure on its members. You have to work your whole life to become perfect otherwise you end up in J6P heaven, no planet for most people.

    There must be more but this is all I can remember. You won’t find this in most other Xian sects.

  20. #20 MAJeff
    November 27, 2007

    You too can become a God

    I already am one. So sayeth Eddie Izzard.

  21. #21 MAJeff
    November 27, 2007

    If you sat in an LDS church service on Sunday, I think you would find that it looks a lot like any other denomination sunday service.

    Reason enough to avoid doing so.

  22. #22 JohnnieCanuck, FCD
    November 27, 2007

    And that thing about the LDS renouncing polygamy? Only here on earth. Mrs. God will have many celestial sisters to help Her with the production of spirit babies.

    Not sure how they expect to make the numbers work. Presumably there will be very few women in the middle layers, as the Gods will have been competing to grab every one they can.

    Note that a woman has to be really compliant, etc. here on earth. Otherwise her husband won’t want to call her to heaven with Him. She’ll be stuck waiting around for some stranger to decide to make an offer. Or something like that.

    Still, if a patriarch is going to make things up, why not stack the deck the best he can for himself, while he is at it? All the other Abrahamic patriarchs did much the same, in their time.

  23. #23 Michael X
    November 28, 2007

    I would like to add to our wonderfully mannered conversation that Mormons should not be thought of as “christian” in the way we normally use that term. It’s something I see stated quite a bit and I believe it happens to be a common misconception. They are actually more like muslims, in the sense that they have bastardized the religion around them at the time and stated that any who are not a part of their new, slightly skewed (read: perfected) version will have no salvation. Though they may include Jesus as an integral part of their delusion, they should not be given the everyday label “christian”.

    When we normally think “christian”, (after the laughter has subsided) we are aware of the different sects, but we are also aware that protestants do not have doctrine stating that baptists or non-denominationals for example, will not be saved. They are part of the same tent. Mormons however are not. They do not include christians and are commonly not included by christians for many reasons, not the least of which is the difference in many of their core teachings on salvation, original sin, number of gods, Jesus’ divinity, etc.

  24. #24 jba
    November 28, 2007

    “There aren’t agnostic or atheist mormons? Assuming I understand what you mean, I have to say you are mistaken”

    I think we are defining mormon two differant ways. I was raised mormon but don’t consider myself mormon anymore. Hell, I tried to get them to take my name off the records, but that’s a lost cause. When I think mormon I think someone who believes in the doctrines and does all the mormon crap, not just someone who is socially mormon. But again, that might be a regional thing. In my area there aren’t any jack mormons to speak of, if you don’t believe then you are not mormon. Of course that’s when they start harassing you to ‘rejoin the fold’. Even after 15 years I still get calls a couple times a year from people wanting me to come back. I have no idea how they find my number after I move…

    Raven: Not to nitpick, but they actually have four afterlives. Three types of ‘heaven’, the terrestrial (just like earth, where most people go), telestial (better than earth, where the ok mormons go), celestial (where you become a god and get your own world) and outer darkness (cue scarey music, its basicly hell). Sweet mother of fuck, I can’t believe I actually remember that shit. :)

  25. #25 David Marjanovi?, OM
    November 28, 2007

    we are also aware that protestants do not have doctrine stating that baptists or non-denominationals for example, will not be saved. They are part of the same tent. Mormons however are not.

    What? There are denominations that believe you don’t need to be a member of that denomination to be saved?

    (But then, Catholicism has the Purgatory, so hell and heaven are not such an either-or question as for Protestants…)

  26. #26 David Marjanovi?, OM
    November 28, 2007

    we are also aware that protestants do not have doctrine stating that baptists or non-denominationals for example, will not be saved. They are part of the same tent. Mormons however are not.

    What? There are denominations that believe you don’t need to be a member of that denomination to be saved?

    (But then, Catholicism has the Purgatory, so hell and heaven are not such an either-or question as for Protestants…)

  27. #27 David Marjanovi?, OM
    November 28, 2007

    I have made Cuttlefish lose his rhyme :.-(

  28. #28 David Marjanovi?, OM
    November 28, 2007

    I have made Cuttlefish lose his rhyme :.-(

  29. #29 bc
    November 28, 2007

    Mormons tend to hire other Mormons – no equal opportunity for them. There is a reason that the Federal government has to clean house in Utah every several years – when Mormons assume hiring roles, they hire people they know from their wards or stakes. I think Romney is going to put a lot of Mormons in the second and third tier of appointed office in exec branch. Then, pull a GHW Bush and try to move as many as possible into the career workforce.

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