…and this is a 
Florida, you're on notice, too
Category: Creationism
Posted on: November 17, 2007 4:13 PM, by PZ Myers
Hmmm. They're arguing about teaching ID in Orange county and in Polk county. Both places have sensible people pointing out that Intelligent Design creationism is not science (and probably also sensibly have visions of $3 million court costs wafting through their heads), while a few clueless ignoramuses are whining that it isn't fair, and that they need to give equal time to "the controversy"…the controversy that doesn't really exist except in the pages of Discovery Institute press releases.
You know these people are reading the Discovery Institute's propaganda — they're using the same buzz phrases. In the next big creationism trial, I hope the creationist losers turn around afterwards and sue the DI for damages their bad advice is causing school districts.
Politics
Comments
Great, I live just north of Orlando in Volusia County. Time to make war!
Posted by: firemancarl | November 17, 2007 4:21 PM
What's especially infuriating is the knowledge that, while the DI essentially encourages these periodic skirmishes with the Establishment Clause, they will run away and hide if another community tries to pull a Dover and put ID in the science curriculum.
Here's a thought: let's have some enterprising school board members at some school district feign interest in learning more about ID, and attempt to solicit written evidence of pledges of support should the matter be litigated. Then, if the DI takes the bait (unlikely), we drag them into a legal and public relations morass. Conversely, if they don't take the bait, then just document, document, document and publicize their mendacity with all of their would-be sympathizers in the pews. Once it becomes well-known that DI doesn't really walk the walk the faithful will start tuning them out.
If you get the idea I really want to hurt the DI where it lives (the legal and political realm), then the reader understands me.
Posted by: Scott Hatfield, OM | November 17, 2007 4:24 PM
PZ,
Thanks for posting on this.
There are too many theists who pretend that they speak for god and for other theists.
As more that become aware their personal beliefs are being hijacked by liars and frauds, the more will speak up ... if only god did exist, he could do the same ;-)
Posted by: Ben Abbott | November 17, 2007 4:37 PM
"the controversy that doesn't really exist except in the pages of Discovery Institute press releases."
Well see, that's the problem. Your readers are (mostly) much better educated than average. Even if there are a few wingnuts hanging out, most of us know enough about biology and science in general to see cdesign proponentsists for what they are.
The general public, and the press that tells them what to think, are not so well prepared. For instance Paul Krugmann, a New York Times columnist, says in his blog that if Republicans said the Earth was flat, the press would call the disagreement a "controversy" rather than laughing at it outright. I pointed out that the idea that there is a controversy over evolution is at least as ridiculous, but my comment wasn't published. Apparently he thought it was "abusive."
Posted by: BaldApe | November 17, 2007 5:04 PM
Throw Dembski deep in a gator pit and claim it was an act of uncommon descent.
Posted by: Danley | November 17, 2007 5:17 PM
My professor discussed this last year saying they were going to push back the date they were to review the science standards (and change them) to after the elections. He was right on the money. My sister teaches 3rd grade in orange county, I live in orange county and this is actually the first time I heard about it. My sister doesn't have much to worry about cause i think science is not even covered in her grade.
Posted by: Chris | November 17, 2007 5:45 PM
Complete lunacy.
It's obvious that the cdesign proponentsists are too thick-headed to be persuaded that their pet idea is not going to pass constitutional muster. The fact that they're still trying it despite being smacked down in Dover proves the point.
One would think that the prospect of having to pay huge sums of money to lawyers on both sides of the eventual court case would be enough of a deterrent. Aren't these people also usually fiscal conservatives? Wasting money for Jesus!
Posted by: Jessa | November 17, 2007 5:58 PM
We at Florida Citizens for Science are in the thick of this fight. There are several more newspaper/TV reports on the issue; see our blog for links and commentary on them: http://www.flascience.org/wp/
Both of those stories you link to, PZ, are lousy ones. A story in a small paper called the Lakeland Ledger was one of the better ones lately: http://www.theledger.com/article/20071116/NEWS/711160414/1039
Our president, Joe Wolf, had a great quote in there:
But Joe Wolf, president of Florida Citizens for Science, said intelligent design is a religious concept, not a scientific theory.
"Teaching intelligent design, creationism, can only cause confusion in the minds of students. How can we expect students to learn science when we're teaching religion?" said Wolf, who identified himself as a Christian believer and a deacon in his church. "I accept evolution as the only current scientific theory that explains the natural world. I'm sick and tired of being told you can't accept evolution and be a Christian."
We're also doing tons of work behind the scenes.
firemancarl, I work in Volusia County (DeLand). We should meet up some time.
Posted by: Brandon | November 17, 2007 6:08 PM
Why can't these morons just give up? There is no science in this Creationist gibberish, and all they're really accomplishing is nothing more than simply wasting everyone's time who has to drop what they're doing and point out time and time again how this half-baked mythology has nothing to do with science.
Posted by: Dan | November 17, 2007 6:12 PM
Look everybody, jen-yoo-wine "scientific proof" about the existence of the big G. At last, rigorous scientific evidence that my athiestic views were wrong all along . . .
http://www.realtruth.org/articles/070601-006-teog.html?cid=g1193&s_kwcid=ContentNetwork|1167384521&gclid=CLKshcaA5Y8CFQKTMAodjBujYg
Posted by: Manostraw | November 17, 2007 6:18 PM
Manostraw:
Same ol' cretinist crap. I'm surprised he didn't tout a bunch of made up degrees.
Posted by: John Marley | November 17, 2007 6:33 PM
My favorite comment in the thread on that news story is this:
LOL!!Posted by: RBH | November 17, 2007 6:55 PM
Manostraw:
How depressing... I read the bit about the clocks, and all this guy proves is his total ignorance of the basic physics of space and time. Why violate Einstein's beautiful theory of relativity, where time is defined by the behaviour of clocks, with such nonsense?
Posted by: PK | November 17, 2007 6:56 PM
Manostraw:
Dammit! I wasn't going to drink tonight, but now I must do so. My brain needs a hard reset after reading that steaming pile of idiocy.
I hope you're happy. I'm sending you my bar tab.
Posted by: Jessa | November 17, 2007 6:58 PM
I know everybody thinks another evolution/id trial would be a slam dunk for good science, but what do you suppose could happen if the presiding judge is an idealogue like Scalia or Thomas? Bush has been packing the federal courts with wingnuts like them for just such an occassion.
Posted by: RussRules | November 17, 2007 7:00 PM
The cigarette industry 'wrote the book' on the tactic of asserting there is doubt, hence there is a controversy, hence we deserve half the stage. Now that the cigarette industry documents are available, perhps DI took a gander and a big hint from the most arch-evil commercial entity on the planet, the cigarette companies.
Posted by: RGoldstein | November 17, 2007 7:16 PM
So, we've seen the cDesign proponentists at it again.
PZ's posting of Minnesota's education standards got me thinking, and so I looked up the standards in my state.
They seem to evade the entire evolution vs cDesignism problem by limiting class discussion and lecture to heredity in any life form above the cellular level. I smell a smarmy equivocation here.
Posted by: DLC | November 17, 2007 10:05 PM
I wonder if the people concerned about "teaching the controversy" would be satisfied if the recent PBS documentary Judgment Day were played in class without additional comment.
Posted by: Ex-drone | November 17, 2007 10:10 PM
@#8
Brandon, I work for Volusia County Fire . You can contact me at Station 21. I figure I could use some allies, I know that ID is going to rear it's ugly head here. Besides, think PZ would mind comming to sunny Florida????
Or PZ is free to give you my email.
Posted by: firemancarl | November 17, 2007 10:27 PM
the informal motto of the florida education system used to be "thank god for mississippi!" due to fact that we were 49TH in the country.
yeah.
Posted by: arachnophilia | November 18, 2007 6:09 AM
Hey guys, are you saying you doubt the credentials of that chap in my link at #10? But he's got degrees in Faithology and Applied Tautology.
And he studied the problem of the universe's existence for 2 and a half years. 2 and a half years folks! Pracically a PHd that is.
Posted by: Manostraw | November 18, 2007 10:09 AM
Manostraw, thanks for the link. I only wish all proponents of (sic) "real truth" were so transparent.
The only truth I'm sure of is that we can never be certain of what is true, but we can be certain as to what is *not* ;-)
Posted by: Ben Abbott | November 18, 2007 11:38 AM
My parents grew up in Lakeland, Florida and it has always been a rather backward place. I know one very intelligent retired couple who are living there in an old home they restored on a lake. The wife is involved politically and they have found a few progressives to interact with.
Orange County, Florida has a whole lot of Baptists in it and they have the lowest educational level of any major religious group in the U.S. A lot of them are good folks who think that ID sounds rational. I was one of them - until I went to college anyway.
Posted by: Texas Reader | November 18, 2007 12:20 PM
The saddest part was that only about 40 people showed up to the Orange county meeting. I was there and was pissed that I didn't put in my name to talk. Thankfully, I made all my real feedback to the board on their website.
I wish more parents cared about their kids' science education! You still have time to leave feedback.
Posted by: zeekster | November 19, 2007 11:15 AM