Seed Media Group

Pharyngula

Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal

Search this blog

Profile

pzm_profile_pic.jpg
PZ Myers is a biologist and associate professor at the University of Minnesota, Morris.
zf_pharyngula.jpg …and this is a pharyngula stage embryo.
a longer profile of yours truly
my calendar
Nature Network
RichardDawkins Network
facebook
MySpace
Twitter
Atheist Nexus
the Pharyngula chat room
(#pharyngula on irc.synirc.net)

I reserve the right to publicly post, with full identifying information about the source, any email sent to me that contains threats of violence.

tbbadge.gif
scarlet_A.png
I support Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

Random Quote

(Complete listing)

In the Middle East, the Bronze Age people of Canaan—the ancient region between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean that roughly corresponds to Israel—also failed to adapt to the drying out of their lands around 2200 BC(E). In their case, says Arlene Rosen of Ben Gurion University of the Negev, it was their beliefs that were their undoing. 'In Canaan, people believed that environmental disasters were caused by a deity unhappy with the people," she says. Like the Mayans, the Canaanites could have coped with the new conditions by introducing new irrigation systems for their crops. Instead, they attributed the shift in climate to the wrath of the gods, built more temples and prayed for better times. Within a short time, the cities and towns were abandoned and the people became nomadic herders.

['Rigid' cultures caught out by climate change, article in the 5 March 1994 edition of New Scientist]

Recent Posts

A Taste of Pharyngula

(Complete listing)

Recent Comments

Archives

Blogroll

(Complete listing)

Other Information

Subscribe via Email

Stay abreast of your favorite bloggers' latest and greatest via e-mail, via a daily digest.

Sign me up!

« Carnivalia and an open thread | Main | How the West was ‘Won’: with spin and rewriting history »

34 Unconvincing Arguments for God

Category: Godlessness
Posted on: December 2, 2007 9:09 AM, by PZ Myers

Here's a very useful document that I got from August Berkshire (you can also get this in pdf form from Minnesota Atheists): 34 Unconvincing Arguments for God. I guess he forgot to include all the convincing arguments for gods, but I'm sure some wandering delusional troll will try to provide some. That's OK, I'm sure August would be willing to increase the number in his title.

Anyway, maybe a better title would be "34 arguments for god, and why they are unconvincing". Go ahead and make suggestions to improve them, I think August will be checking in and following along.

34 Unconvincing Arguments for God
by August Berkshire

Introduction - Atheism – the lack of belief in gods – is based upon a lack of evidence for gods, lack of a reason to believe in gods, and difficulties and contradictions that some god ideas lead to.

Nevertheless, atheism is a tentative state, subject to change if compelling theistic arguments are presented.

Following are some of the arguments that atheists have considered, along with some of the reasons these arguments have been rejected.

(1) God-of-the-Gaps (God as a “free lunch”) - Almost every “proof” for the existence of gods relies, at least in part, on a god-of-the gaps argument. This argument says that if we don’t know the answer to something, then “God did it.” “God” gets to win by default, without any positive evidence. But is saying “God did it” really an answer?

Intelligent design, god-advocate William Dembski has authored a book entitled No Free Lunch. However, “God” is the ultimate “free lunch.” Consider the following:

We don’t know what gods are composed of.

We don’t know what gods’ attributes are.

We don’t know how many gods there are.

We don’t know where gods are.

We don’t know where gods come from or, alternately, how it is possible for them to always exist.

We don’t know what mechanisms gods use to create or change anything.

We don’t know what the “supernatural” is, nor how it is capable of interacting with the natural world.

In other words, we know absolutely nothing about gods – yet at least one god is often given credit for many things. Thus, to say “God did it” is to answer a question with a question. It provides no information and only makes the original question more complex.

The god-of-the-gaps argument says that not only do we not have a naturalistic answer today, but we will never discover a naturalistic answer in the future because no naturalistic answer is possible. Thus, to rebut a god-of-the-gaps argument, we only have to show that a naturalistic answer is possible.

For example: We open the door to a room and observe a cat sleeping in a corner. We close the door, then open it again five minutes later. We observe that the cat is now sleeping in another corner. One person says “God did it by levitating the sleeping cat” (without offering any proof). Another person says “It’s quite possible that the cat woke up, wandered over to the other corner, and fell asleep again.” Thus, although no one saw what actually happened, the god-of-the-gaps argument has been rendered implausible by a possible naturalistic explanation.

(2) Leaps of Faith - The fact is, no one even knows if it’s possible for gods to exist. Just because we can imagine something doesn’t mean it’s possible. For example, we can all imagine ourselves walking through a solid wall, but that doesn’t mean it’s possible. So, just because we can imagine a god, doesn’t mean its existence is actually possible.

Because there is no direct proof for the existence of any gods, a typical believer must make at least nine leaps of faith to arrive at the god they believe in. These are separate leaps of faith because one leap does not imply the next leap.

The first leap of faith is that a supernatural realm even exists.

Second, that beings of some sort exist in this realm.

Third, that these beings have consciousness.

Fourth, that at least one of these beings is eternal.

Fifth, that this being is capable of creating something from nothing.

Sixth, that this being is capable of interfering with the universe after it is created (i.e. miracles).

Seventh, eighth, and ninth, that this being is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving.

If people want to believe in a god more specific to a particular religion, then some additional leaps of faith are necessary.

So, when we speak about gods, we have absolutely no idea what we’re talking about (see unconvincing argument #1), and we have to make at least nine leaps of faith to get to the god most people believe in.

(3) Holy Books - Just because something is written down does not make it true. This goes for the Bible, the Qur’an, and any other holy book. It is circular reasoning to try to prove the god of a holy book exists by using the holy book itself as “evidence.”

People who believe the holy book of one religion usually disbelieve the holy books of other religions.

(4) The Argument from Historical Settings - This argument states that because historical people and places are mentioned in ancient stories, that everything else about those stories, including descriptions of supernatural events, must be true. By this argument, everything written in the Iliad, including the intervention of the ancient Greek gods, must be true.

(5) “Revelations” of Others - All religions claim to be revealed, usually through people called “prophets.” But how can we know that a “revelation” is actually a “message from a god” and not a hallucination?

A revelation is a personal experience. Even if a revelation really did come from a god, there is no way we could prove it.

People of one religion usually disbelieve the revelations of other religions. These revelations often contradict each other, so what basis do we have for deciding which are the “true revelations”?

(6) “Revelations” of One’s Own (Personal Testimony, Feelings, “Open Heart”) - This is when you are personally having the revelation or feeling that a god exists. Though you may be sincere, and even if a god really does exist, a feeling is not proof, either for you or for someone else.

It will do no good to ask atheists to “open our hearts and accept Jesus” (or any other deity). If we were to set aside our skepticism, we might indeed have an inspirational experience. But this would be an emotional experience and we’d have no way to verify if a god was really speaking to us or if we were just hallucinating.

Many atheists have stories of how wonderful it felt to lose their belief in gods. As with religion, this is not proof that atheism is true.

(7) Most People Believe in God - It’s true that throughout history, most people have believed in at least one god. But mere popularity doesn’t make something true. (Most people used to mistakenly believe that the Earth was the center of the universe.)

The number of atheists in the world is currently increasing. We can imagine a day when most people are atheists. (In fact, most of the top scientists in the U.S. already are atheists.) However, as with religion, the popularity of atheism will not be able to be used as proof of its truth.

Even today, it is probable that in England and France atheists outnumber theists. Does this mean that God exists everywhere except in those two countries?

(8) Evolution Would Not Favor a False Belief - Would evolution reward a species incapable of perceiving reality? Would evolution reward a species that hallucinated? If not, then a god must exist, according to this argument.

However, evolution does not reward what is true. Evolution rewards that which is useful.

No one can doubt that religion and god-belief have sometimes been useful. “God” can be employed like Santa Claus, to keep people behaving well in order to earn a reward. “God” can also be used to justify horrible behavior that benefits your group, such as Islamic suicide bombings or the Christian Crusades. “God” can reduce your fear of death.

Nevertheless, in an age of nuclear weapons, the dangers of god belief far outweigh its usefulness.

(9) The “God Part” of the Brain - Some religious people argue that a god must exist, or why else would we have a part of our brain that can “recognize” a god? What use would that part of our brain be otherwise?

However, imagination is important for us to be able to predict the future, and thus aids in our survival. We can imagine all kinds of things that aren’t true. It is a byproduct of being able to imagine things that might be true.

As a matter of fact, scientists have begun to study why some people have religious beliefs and others don’t, from a biological perspective. They have identified certain naturally occurring chemicals in our brains that can give us religious experiences. For example, the brain chemical dopamine increases the likelihood that we will “see” patterns where there are none.

In studies of religion and the brain, a new field called neurotheology, they have identified the temporal lobe as a place in the brain that can generate religious experiences.

Another part of the brain, which regulates a person’s sense of “self,” can be consciously shut down during meditation, giving the meditator (who loses his or her sense of personal boundaries) a feeling of “oneness” with the universe.

(10) Ancient “Miracles” & Resurrection Stories - Many religions have miracle stories. And, just as people who believe in one religion are usually skeptical towards miracle stories of other religions, atheists are skeptical toward all miracle stories.

Extraordinary events can become exaggerated and grow into miraculous legends. Good magicians can perform acts that seem like miracles. Things can be mismeasured and misinterpreted. Many things that seemed like “miracles” in the ancient world can be explained with modern knowledge.

Regarding resurrections, atheists will not find a story of someone resurrecting from the dead to be convincing. There are many such legends in ancient literature and, again, most religious people reject the resurrection stories of other religions.

Many religions reports that their god(s) performed obvious, spectacular miracles thousands of years ago. Why have these miracles stopped? Is it because the gods have become shy? Or is it because science started?

(11) Modern Medical “Miracles” & Resurrection Stories - Modern medical “miracles” are a good example of “god-of-the-gaps.” A person experiences a cure for a disease that science can’t explain. Therefore, “God did it.” God never has to prove himself in these arguments. It is always assumed that he gets to win by default.

But this argument assumes we know everything about the human body, so that a natural explanation is impossible. But the fact is, we don’t have complete medical knowledge. Why don’t we ever see something that would be a true miracle, like an amputated arm instantaneously regenerating?

Several studies of prayer, where the patients didn’t know whether or not they were being prayed for, including a study by the Mayo Clinic, have shown prayer to have no effect on healing.

(This raises the question of why we would have to beg an all-powerful, all-loving god to be healed in the first place. It seems ironic, to say the least, to pray to a loving god to be cured from diseases and the effects of natural disasters that he himself created. It also raises the Problem of Evil: If God is all-powerful and all-loving, why does evil exist in the first place?)

Modern resurrection stories always seem to occur in Third World countries under unscientific conditions. However, there have been thousands of people in modern hospitals hooked up to machines that verified their deaths when they died. Why didn’t any of them ever resurrect?

(12) “Heaven” (Fear of Death) - Atheists don’t like the fact that we’re all going to die any more than religious people do. However, this fear does not prove there is an afterlife – only that we wish there was an afterlife. But wishing doesn’t make it so.

There is no evidence for a god, no evidence that he created any place for us to go after we die, no explanation as to exactly what that place is composed of, nor where it is, nor how a god created it from nothing.

There is no evidence for a soul, no description of what a soul is composed of, and no explanation of how a non-material soul evolved in a material body, or, alternately, no explanation of how or when a god zaps a soul into a body.

If a fertilized human egg has a soul, what happens if that egg splits in two to form identical twins? Does each twin have half a soul? Or did the original fertilized egg have two souls?

What about when the opposite happens, when two fertilized eggs fuse to form one human being, creating what is known as a chimera? Does that person have two souls? Or did each original fertilized egg have only half a soul?

If a one-week-old baby dies, what kind of thoughts will it have in an afterlife? The thoughts of a one-week-old, which are zero? The thoughts of an adult? If so, how will that happen? Where will those thoughts come from and what will they be?

There is no reason to believe our consciousness survives the death of our brains. The mind is not something separate from the body.

For example, we know the chemicals responsible for the feeling of love. Drugs can alter our mood, and thus change our thoughts. Physical damage to our brains can change our personalities, and our thoughts. And learning a new skill, which involves thinking, can physically change the structure of our brains.

Some people get Alzheimer’s disease at the end of their lives. The irreversible damage to their brains can be detected by brain scans. These people lose their ability to think, yet they are still alive. How, one second after these people die, does their thinking return (in a “soul”)?

If people had to choose between a god and an afterlife, most people would choose the afterlife and forget about God. They only choose god belief because it’s the only way they know of to fulfill their desire for an afterlife. [Thanks to Edward Tabash for this point.]

(13) Fear of Hell - The idea of hell strikes atheists as a scam – an attempt to get people to believe through fear what they cannot believe through reason and evidence.

The only way to approach this “logically” is to find the religion that punishes you the worst for disbelief, and then believe that religion. Okay, you will have saved yourself from the worst punishment that exists – if that religion is the “true” religion.

But if that religion (with its punishment) is not the true religion – if the religion that has the second or third worst punishment for disbelief is the true religion – then you have saved yourself nothing.

So, which religion’s hell is the true hell? Without evidence, we can never know.

Even within Christianity there are three different versions of hell. There is the traditional version, where your “soul” burns forever. A second version says that eternal punishment is too cruel for a loving god, so your “soul” is burnt out of existence.

And a third version says that hell is not a physical place but the condition of being forever separated from God. But atheists are already separated from God and are having a good time, so they fail to see how this is a punishment. And, how can a person be separated from God when God is supposedly everywhere?

(14) “Pascal’s Wager” / Faith - In short, Pascal’s Wager states that we have everything to gain (an eternity in heaven) and nothing to lose by believing in a god. On the other hand, disbelief can lead to a loss of heaven (i.e. hell).

We’ve already noted that heaven is wishful thinking and that hell is a scam, so let’s address the issue of faith.

Pascal’s Wager assumes a person can will himself or herself into having faith. This is simply not the case, at least not for an atheist. So atheists would have to pretend to believe. But according to most definitions of God, wouldn’t God know we were lying to hedge our bets? Would a god reward this?

Part of Pascal’s Wager states that you “lose nothing” by believing. But an atheist would disagree. By believing under these conditions, you’re acknowledging that you’re willing to accept some things on faith. In other words, you’re saying you’re willing to abandon evidence as your standard for judging reality. Faith doesn’t sound so appealing when it’s phrased that way, does it?

(15) Blaming the Victim - Many religions punish people for disbelief. However, belief requires faith, and some people, such as atheists, are incapable of faith. Their minds are only receptive to evidence. Therefore, are atheists to be blamed for not believing when “God” provides insufficient evidence?

(16) The End of the World - Like the concept of hell, this strikes atheists as a scare tactic to get people to believe through fear what they can’t believe through reason and evidence. There have been predictions that the world was going to end for centuries now. The question you might want to ask yourselves, if you’re basing your religious beliefs on this, is how long you’re willing to wait – what amount of time will convince you that the world is not going to end?

(17) Difficulties of Religion - It has sometimes been argued that because certain religious practices are difficult to follow, nobody would do them if a god didn’t exist. However, it is the belief in the existence of a god that is motivating people. A god doesn’t really have to exist for this to happen.

Difficulties can serve as an initiation rite of passage into being counted one of the “select few.” After all, if just anybody could be “saved,” there might be no point in having a religion.

Finally, the reward for obedience promised by most religions – a heaven – far outweighs any difficulties religion imposes.

(18) The Argument from Martyrdom - It has been argued that no one would die for a lie. This overlooks the fact that people can be intentionally or unintentionally fooled into believing a religion is true.

Most religious groups that promote martyrdom promise a great reward in “heaven,” so followers don’t perceive the loss of their lives as a great sacrifice.

Does the fact that the 9/11 bombers were willing to die for their faith make Islam true? What about cults like Heaven’s Gate, where followers committed suicide in 1997 believing their “souls” were going to a space ship carrying Jesus on the far side of a comet?

(19) The Argument from Embarrassment - Some religious people argue that because their holy book contains passages that are embarrassing to their faith, that those passages – and the accompanying descriptions of supernatural events – must be true or they wouldn’t have been included in the book.

A classic example of this argument is the Biblical description of the disciples’ cowardice after Jesus’ arrest. Yet in this case, as in others, embarrassing moments can be included in a fictional story to heighten dramatic tension and make the eventual triumph of the hero of the story that much greater. [Thanks to Robert M. Price for this point.]

(20) False Dichotomies - This is being presented with a false “either/or” proposition, where you’re only given two alternatives when, in fact, there are more possibilities.

Here’s one that many Christians are familiar with: “Either Jesus was insane or he was god. Since Jesus said some wise things, he wasn’t insane. Therefore, he must be God, like he said he was.” But those are not the only two possibilities.

A third option is that, yes, it is possible to say some wise things and be deluded that you are a god.

A fourth possibility is that Jesus didn’t say everything that is attributed to him in the Bible. Maybe he didn’t actually say all those wise things, but the writers of the Bible said he did. Or maybe he never claimed to be God, but the writers turned him into a god after he died.

A fifth possibility is that Jesus is a fictional character and so everything was invented by the authors.

(21) Meaning in Life - This is the idea that, without belief in a god, life would be meaningless. Even if this were true, it would only prove we wanted a god to exist to give meaning to our lives, not that a god actually does exist. But the very fact that atheists can find meaning in their lives without a belief in a god shows that god belief is not necessary.

(22) “God is Intangible, Like Love” - Love is not intangible. We can define love both as a type of feeling and as demonstrated by certain types of actions.

Unlike “God,” love is a physical thing. We know the chemicals responsible for the feeling of love.

Also, love depends upon brain structure. A person with a lobotomy or other type of brain damage may lose the ability to feel love.

Furthermore, if love were not physical, it would not be confined to our physical brains. We would expect to be able to detect an entity or force called “love” floating around in the air.

(23) Morality/Ethics - This is the idea that without a god we’d have no basis for morality. However, a secular moral code existed before the Bible: the Code of Hammurabi.

In Plato’s dialogue called Euthyphro, Socrates asks a man named Euthyphro whether something is good because God says it is, or does God announce something to be good because it has intrinsic goodness?

If something is good because God says it is, then God might change his mind about what is good. Thus, there would be no absolute morality.

If God merely announces something to be good because it has intrinsic goodness, then we might be able to discover this intrinsic goodness ourselves, without the need for god belief.

Christians can’t even agree among themselves what’s moral when it comes to things like masturbation, premarital sex, homosexuality, divorce, contraception, abortion, war, embryonic stem cell research, euthanasia, and the death penalty.

Christians reject some of the moral laws found in the Bible, such as killing disobedient children or people who work on the Sabbath. Therefore, Christians must be applying their own ethical standards from outside the Bible to be able to recognize that these commandments in the Bible are unethical. [Thanks to Dan Barker for this point.]

In fact, most religious people ignore the bad ethics in their holy books and concentrate on the good advice. In other words, theists pick and choose their ethics just like atheists do.

Other animals exhibit kindness toward one another and a sense of justice. We have found the part of our brains responsible for feelings of sympathy and empathy – “mirror neurons” – which serve as the foundation for much of our ethics.

Morality is something that evolved from us being social animals. It’s based on the selfish advantage we get from cooperation, and on consequences. Helping one another is a selfish act that has evolutionary rewards. (See also Argument 25, against the existence of altruism.)

We also judge actions by their consequences, through trial and error. The best formula we have come up with is to allow the maximum amount of freedom that does not harm another person or impinge on that person’s freedom. This creates the greatest amount of happiness and prosperity in society, which benefits the greatest amount of people (the greatest good for the greatest number). This view includes the protection of minority rights, since in some way we are each a minority.

Since there is no evidence for any gods, it follows that any moral belief can be attributed to a god. So, rather than being a certain guide, religion can be used to justify any behavior. One simply has to say “God told me to do it.” The best way to refute this reasoning is to discard the idea of gods altogether.

Even if a god doesn’t exist, some people think that a belief in a god is useful to get people to behave – kind of like an invisible policeman, or, in the words of President George W. Bush: “(God) is constantly searching our hearts and minds. He’s kind of like Santa Claus. He knows if you’ve been good or if you’ve been bad.” [April 8, 2007 (Easter), Army post, Fort Hood, Texas.] Do we really want to make this the basis for our ethics?

Any decent ethical system does not need the supernatural to justify it. However, belief in the supernatural has been used to justify many unethical acts, such as the Inquisition, the Salem Witch trials, gay-bashing, and 9/11.

(24) The Argument from Goodness/Beauty - Some religious people argue that without a god there would be no goodness and/or beauty in the world. However, goodness and beauty are defined in human terms.

If the Earth’s environment had been so nasty that it was impossible for life to evolve, then we wouldn’t be here to ponder this question. So, obviously, at least some things about the Earth’s environment are life-affirming, and we are naturally drawn to these things – our survival depends upon it.

As for the beauty of art: we are naturally drawn to life-affirming images, shapes, and colors. However, there are many examples of art, such as the paintings of the Cubists and the Surrealists, that are loved by some people and hated by others.

(25) Altruism - People sometimes say that without a god there would be no altruism, that evolution only rewards selfish behavior.

However, it can be argued that there is no such thing as altruism, that people always do what they want to do. If they are only faced with bad choices, then people choose the thing they hate the least.

Our choices are based on what gives us (our genes) the best advantage for survival, including raising our reputation in society.

“Altruism” towards family members benefits people who share our genes. “Altruism” towards friends benefits people who may someday return the favor.

Even “altruism” towards strangers has a basis in evolution. This behavior first evolved in small tribes, where everyone knew each other and a good reputation enhanced one’s survival. It is now hard-wired in our brains as a general mode of conduct. [Thanks to Richard Dawkins for this point.]

(26) Free Will - Some people argue that without a god there would be no free will, that we would live in a deterministic universe of cause and effect and that we would be mere “robots.”

Actually, there is far less free will than most people think there is. Our conditioning (our biological desire to survive and prosper, combined with our experiences) makes certain “choices” far more likely than others. How else can we explain our ability, in many cases, to predict human behavior?

Experiments have shown that our brain makes a “decision” to take action before we become conscious of it!

Some believe that the only free will we have is to exercise a conscious veto over actions suggested by our thoughts.

Most atheists have no problem admitting that free will may be an illusion.

This issue also brings up a conundrum: If a god who created us knows the future, how can we have free will?

In the end, if we are enjoying our lives, does it matter if free will is real or an illusion? Isn’t it only our ego – our healthy self-esteem that is beneficial for survival – that has been conditioned to believe that real free will is somehow better than imaginary free will?

(27) A Perfect Being Must Necessarily Exist - This is known as the ontological argument for God, first developed almost 1,000 years ago by Anselm.

We are asked to imagine the greatest or most perfect being possible. For most people, this is their conception of a god. Then it is pointed out that it is greater or more perfect for something to exist rather than not to exist. Therefore, this being (God) must necessarily exist.

But this argument does not address the question of whether it is possible for a perfect being to exist. It also means that our imagination can will things into existence. Not everything we can imagine is possible.

Let’s apply this logic to a different subject. Imagine a perfect skyscraper. It would remain undamaged if terrorists flew planes into it. Yet no skyscraper can withstand such an assault without at least some damage. But that violates our premise that the skyscraper must be perfect. Therefore, such an indestructible skyscraper must exist.

(28) Why is there Something Rather than Nothing? - This argument assumes that, without a god, we wouldn’t expect anything to exist. However, we have no idea of the statistical probability of Something existing rather than Nothing.

According to physics and astronomy professor Victor Stenger, symmetrical systems tend to be unstable. They tend to decay into less symmetrical systems. Now, Nothing – the lack of anything – is perfectly symmetrical, and thus highly unstable. Therefore, Something is more stable than Nothing. Thus we would expect there to be Something rather than Nothing.

We might just as reasonably ask: “Why is there a god rather than no god?” and “Who created this god?”

(29) The Argument from First Cause - This argument states that we live in a universe of cause-and-effect. However, the argument goes, it is logically impossible to have an infinite regression of causes. At some point the regression has to stop. At that point you need a First Cause that is not the result of any cause itself. That First Uncaused Cause, it is claimed, is God.

The universe we live in now “began” about 13.7 billion years ago. Whether the universe existed in some other form before that – whether there was energy/matter/gravity/etc. (a natural world) before that – is unknown.

We don’t know if the natural world had a beginning or whether it always existed in some form. If it had a beginning, we don’t know that a god is the only possible creative source. We don’t know that a god can be an uncaused cause. What caused God?

Virtual particles pop into and out of existence all the time. Quantum physics demonstrates that there can indeed be uncaused events.

(30) The “Laws” of the Universe - Where did the “laws” of the universe come from? Any physical “law” is merely an observed regularity. It’s not something handed down by a celestial tribunal.

According to physics and astronomy professor Victor Stenger: “It is commonly believed that the “laws of physics” lie outside physics. They are thought to be either imposed from outside the universe or built into its logical structure. Recent physics disputes this. The basic “laws” of physics are mathematical statements that have the form they do in an attempt to describe reality in an objective way. The laws of physics are just what they would be expected to be if they came from nothing.” [all emphasis added]

(31) The “Fine-tuning” of the Universe - Some religious people argue that the six physical constants of the universe (which control such things as the strength of gravity) can only exist within a very narrow range to produce a universe capable of sustaining life. Therefore, since this couldn’t have happened “by accident,” a god must have done it.

Again, this is a god-of-the-gaps argument. But beyond that, this argument assumes that we know everything about astrophysics – a field in which new discoveries are made on almost a daily basis. We may discover that our universe is not so “fine tuned” after all.

Another possibility is that there may exist multiple universes – either separately or as “bubble universes” within a single universe. Each of these universes could have its own set of constants. Given enough universes, by chance it is likely that at least one will produce and sustain life.

We know it is possible for at least one universe to exist – we are in it. If one can exist, why not many? On the other hand, we have no evidence that it is possible for even one god to exist.

Now let’s take a look at most people’s definition of a god: eternal, omni-present, all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving. Can God be any other way than exactly the way he is?

Although there is some small margin for variance in the “fine-tuning” of the constants of the universe, there is traditionally no margin for variance in the constants of God. Therefore, our universe with a traditional god is logically more implausible than our universe without one.

And, of course, we must ask: Who or what fine-tuned God?

If the universe was created specifically with humans in mind, then the enormous size of the universe (most of it hostile to life) and the billions of years that passed before humans showed up are ridiculous and wasteful – not what we would expect from a god.

(32) The “Fine-tuning” of the Earth - Some religious people argue that the Earth is positioned “just right” in the solar system (not too hot, not too cold, etc.) for life to exist. Furthermore, the elements on Earth (carbon, oxygen, etc.) are also “just right.” These people claim that this couldn’t have happened “by accident,” so a god must exist to have done the positioning and chemistry.

We should be able to recognize a god-of-the-gaps argument here. But an even better rebuttal exists. If Earth was the only planet in the universe, then it would indeed be remarkable that our conditions turned out to be “just right.”

But most religious people acknowledge that there are probably thousands, if not millions, of other planets in the universe. (Our own solar system has eight planets.) Therefore, by chance, at least one of those planets will have conditions that will produce some kind of life.

We can imagine religious purple creatures with four eyes and breathing carbon dioxide on another planet also falsely believing that their planet is “fine-tuned” and that a creator god exists in their image.

(33) Creationism / “Intelligent Design” - This is the idea that if we can’t currently explain something about life, then “God did it” (god-of-the-gaps).

However, if Genesis, or any similar religious creation myth, is true, then virtually every field of science is wrong. Not only is biology wrong, but so too are chemistry, physics, archeology, and astronomy, as well as their many subdisciplines such as embryology and genetics. In fact, we might as well throw out the entire scientific method.

Creationists often make a distinction between “micro” evolution and “macro” evolution – that is, change within a species, which they accept, and change from one species to another, which they do not accept.

But what are the mechanisms for “micro” evolution? They are: mutation, natural selection, and inheritance. And what are the mechanisms for “macro” evolution? Exactly the same: mutation, natural selection, and inheritance. The only difference is the amount of time required. Do some genes say to themselves: “Gee, I better not change too much or it will upset some religious people?”

Evolution is the best explanation, and the only explanation for which we have any evidence, for the age of fossils, for the progression of fossils, for genetic similarities, for structural similarities, and for transitional fossils.

Yes, there are transitional fossils. For example, we have a good fossil trail of species going from land mammal to whale, including basilosaurus, a primitive whale that still retained useless, small hind legs. Even today, whales retain their hip bones.

(Some creationists argue that those tiny hind legs would have been useful for mating, thus basilosaurus was a separately created species and not a transition. But if those hind legs were so useful, why did they evolve completely away?)

In fact, snakes, too, still have hip bones, and once in a great while we see a snake born with vestiges of hind legs, demonstrating their evolution from reptile ancestors that had hind legs.

In China we have found many half-reptile/half-bird fossils, demonstrating that transition.

There is the recently discovered fossil tiktaalik, which helped filled a gap between fish and amphibians. It was discovered in Canada, exactly where, and in the age of rock, that evolution predicted. [Thanks to PZ Myers for this point.]

On the other hand, if a perfect god created life we would expect him to do a better job. We wouldn’t expect that 99% of all species that have ever existed would have gone extinct.

As the Christian evolutionary biologist Kenneth R. Miller stated: “if God purposely designed 30 horse species that later disappeared, then God’s primary attribute is incompetence. He can’t make it right the first time.” [“Educators debate 'intelligent design’ ” by Richard N. Ostling, Star Tribune. March 23, 2002, p. B9.]

As the evangelical Christian Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, stated: “ID [Intelligent Design] portrays the Almighty as a clumsy Creator, having to intervene at regular intervals to fix the inadequacies of His own initial plan for generating the complexity of life.” [The Language of God, pp. 193-194.]

If a perfect god created life we would not expect birth defects. If a perfect god created life we would not expect “unintelligent design” such as a prostate gland that swells and shuts down the urinary tract, when the urinary tract could have just as easily have been routed around the prostate gland. Is “God” an incompetent or sloppy designer?

If a god created all life within a week then, even with an alleged worldwide flood, we would expect to find a thoroughly mixed geologic column of fossils. We don’t find this.

We also have the contradiction that people claim that God is “pro-life,” yet he allows for spontaneous abortion. One third to one half of fertilized human eggs get spontaneously aborted, often before the woman is even aware that she’s pregnant. If a god designed the human system of reproduction, this make God the world’s biggest abortionist.

Thus, scientific evolution provides answers, whereas religious creationism and “intelligent design” only introduce more questions.

(34) The universe and/or life violate the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) - The second law of thermodynamics (entropy) states that in a closed system, things tend toward greater disorder. Some religious people argue that because the universe and life are so orderly, that a god must be required who could violate this law.

Again, I thank physics and astronomy professor Victor Stenger for the secular explanation:

The universe does not violate the second law of thermodynamics. The universe started with the maximum amount of disorder possible for its size. Then, as the universe expanded, this allowed for more disorder to occur, and, in fact, it is occurring.

Despite the fact that the overall disorder is increasing in the system called the universe, increasing order is allowed in subsystems, such as galaxies, solar systems, and life – so long as the net effect to the entire universe is increased disorder.

If a god created the universe, we would have expected it to start in an orderly fashion, not in disorder. The fact that the universe started with maximum disorder means that a god could not have created it, because a purposeful creation would have had at least some order to it.

It also turns out that the negative gravitational energy in the universe exactly cancels the positive energy represented by matter, so that the total net energy of the universe is zero, which is what you would expect if the universe came from Nothing by natural means. However, if a god was involved, you would have expected him to have introduced energy into the universe. There is no evidence of this.

It’s interesting how theists will cling to the second law of thermodynamics to try to prove the existence of their god, while totally ignoring the first law of thermodynamics – that matter/energy can be neither created nor destroyed – which would thoroughly disprove the existence of their god as a being who can create something from nothing.

Conclusion - Religious people have a tough, if not impossible task to try to prove a god exists, let alone that their particular religion is true. If any religion had objective standards, wouldn’t everyone be flocking to the same “true” religion? Instead we find that people tend to believe, to varying degrees, the religion in which they were indoctrinated. Or they are atheists.

© 2006, 2007 August Berkshire. Dec. 1, 2007.
Feedback is welcome.
Send e-mail to augustberkshire [at] gmail.com.

TrackBacks

(TrackBack URL for this entry: )

Comments

#1

The movie "Contact" from the book by Carl Sagan is one of my favourites...except it throws out Number 22 on your list as a conversation stopper for the archetypal scientist characer, Ellie. She flounders around looking for an answer to proving her deceased father loved her.

If love was intangible, remembering birthdays and anniversaries and her favourite wine would not be important. Weddings wouldn't occur.

Posted by: The Flying Trilobite | December 2, 2007 9:16 AM

#2

Many of the "arguments" overlap greatly with one another--to the extent that they are essentially repeats. If each argument comes from a different source, quoting and citing that source would bring home the fact that it is not Berkshire who is being repetitive, but the arguers.

Posted by: Anon | December 2, 2007 9:24 AM

#3

'Many of the "arguments" overlap greatly with one another ...'

The last version of this document I saw was titled "21 Unconvincing Arguments for God", so the author must have added the last 13 as a response to recent personal or national debates. In particular, 29 is (I think) from Aristotle, and 30-34 answer common talking points of cdesignproponentsists.

I don't think citing sources for arguments will necessarily help; because of the religious echo chamber, these arguments seemingly come from myriad sources, and in fact might demonstrate parallel evolution in action. A taxonomy might help, but I interpret the purpose of "X Unconvincing Arguments for God" to be a cheat sheet for atheists debating theists, or perhaps a DSM for theistic delusions of rationality.

Posted by: Frank Mitchell | December 2, 2007 9:47 AM

#4

If I might blogwhore just a teensy bit, I once discussed this whole ridiculous notion of "perfection" here. Feel free to point out the errors of my ways.

Posted by: CC | December 2, 2007 10:02 AM

#5

To quote the Unreal Tournament announcer: "Mo-mo-mo-MONSTERKILL!"

To quote Oolon Colluphid: "Well That About Wraps It Up for God"

Posted by: Sampo Rassi | December 2, 2007 10:08 AM

#6
Most atheists have no problem admitting that free will may be an illusion.

Bullshit.

Free will is an illusion only if you define it in absolutist terms, to mean something like "the ability to defy all natural laws at will," or "the ability to imagine something literally unthinkable and then to do it."

I've even heard people insist that if you can't defy gravity, or simply DECIDE to walk through a wall, you don't have free will. People who say it would invariably conclude that anybody in a wheelchair automatically doesn't have free will, because they can't walk, despite wanting to. Why even have a discussion about the phrase if you're going to pop out with such stupid arguments?

Yet most of what I hear about free will seems to demand such a definition.

To hear an atheist make such a statement, it seems to me I'm hearing the same type of unexamined holdover from religion that causes people to say you can't have morality without God, because God is the source of morality.

So: Free will only comes from God, and without Him, we can't possibly have it. Therefore, those people who don't believe in God can't believe in free will.

Uhhh ... no.

Atheism itself is a demonstration of free will.

I define free will to mean something less absolutist, something like "the ability to be a conscious individual capable of making one's own choices, especially in the face of pressure to conform."

I say free will is something we're all probably capable of, but only under certain difficult conditions, conditions which most of us probably don't attain. It's sort of like getting a PhD, or finishing a marathon. It takes an immense amount of work, and a lot of us just aren't up to it.

Free will takes reason, introspection, awareness of your own nature, awareness of the nature of your social and natural environment, plus the determination to be an individual.

Free will happens outside the herd. Most of us don't go to the trouble. We're content to be just like everybody else - to eat the fast food, covet the hot car, keep up on the latest fashions, praise Jesus (or Allah) right along with everybody else, watch the popular shows, watch the commercials and buy the shit advertised, get our tattoos, hate the right outgroups, and allow our knees to jerk every time our political and religious leaders hit us with their little rubber hammers.

In other words, acting and reacting automatically to the forces that act on you is the opposite of free will. (You can find legions of them among the conservatives, the follow-alongs, the silent, the obedient, the strident dullards who think George W. Bush is the greatest president who ever lived.)

If you're NOT acting and reacting automatically, if you're THINKING about what you're doing and why, if you're evaluating everything based on criteria you yourself have worked out, you're exhibiting at the least the first half of free will.

Free will, to me, is really about being Human, as opposed to being Beast. Nothing wrong with the beastly parts of us, but if that's all you're living in, all you're living as, if you're not bothering to use that most Human of gifts - independent Reason - you're cheating yourself and everybody around you of the best and most complete You that you could be.

Free will is not an illusion. It's just that a lot of people - certainly those who don't believe in it - never get to have it.

Posted by: Hank Fox | December 2, 2007 10:12 AM

#7

The major weakness I see is that despite the introductory premise setting things up as a matter of skepticism, many of the discussions go on to unnecessarily make strong assertions of their own, like saying that a god would not have created a universe in a high state of disorder.

In my opinion, those sorts of things should be avoided. They are virtually never necessary to demonstrate the inadequacy of the claims they are responding to, and they commit the arguer to having to defend all sorts of crazy assertions for which there is no possible evidence to work with.

I also think that his usage of Stenger is pretty clumsy. While I certainly like VS's arguments, a lot of them in this context are far too technical right off the bat, and they are also far too certain in their presentation of the physical principles they are asserting. Many of Stenger's arguments involve just explaining speculative possibilities, not definite truths about the universe. Again, the skeptical position is far easier to explain and far stronger in these sorts of questions. You don't really need to understand physics at all to understand the logical flaws in fine tuning and first cause arguments.

Also, the discussion of the ontological argument needs a lot of beefing up. The ontological argument is far trickier than we often give it credit for, especially in its new modal form, which even some atheist philosophers agree is logically sound (the problem is figuring out exactly what's wrong the premises, and honestly, I don't think there's a really knock-down answer as of yet).

Posted by: Bad | December 2, 2007 10:17 AM

#8

I'd be cautious of the negative gravitational argument, in light of our lack of understanding of dark energy and dark matter. There is also no reason to conclude that god would have introduced positive energy. The first law of thermodynamics is a wonderful response.

Posted by: Bob Applebaum | December 2, 2007 10:27 AM

#9

I dislike reason #15. The corollary of "Some atheists are just incapable of belief; don't blame them" is "Some theists just have to believe; don't blame them." It seems to me a negation of free will.

Posted by: j | December 2, 2007 10:28 AM

#10

Don't forget that most or all of these arguments are also discussed in detail at Iron Chariots. :)

Posted by: Kazim | December 2, 2007 10:29 AM

#11

Hank, I'm not sure I understand you. Almost no one has ever disputed that there is a weak form of the term free will by which we mean that we are autonomous agents capable of being dropped down in a situation and making choices for ourselves.

The only concept that's ever really been in dispute IS the absolutist idea: the idea that free will means more than simply the ability to make a choice, but rather that our choices are unbounded by our natures. It's hard to define exactly what this version of free will really means or implies, and of course, that's it core weakness: it's probably unintelligible. How can a chooser be free from their own nature? How can a will be free from itself, and yet still call its choices its own? Free Will is basically defined by negation (no, we are not bound by our natures, no God is not responsible for our choices, because we have this X that decides independently of who and what he made us), but never actually defined or explained directly.

We can explain how a choice is made causally at least in theory, and through the study of the brain, we may someday be able to explain this specifically in humans. It's not clear that advocates of Free Will (the strong version) can do anything like this: they can't explain, even in theory, what Free Will is and what exact role it plays in choicemaking. If what they are talking about is a real concept, then they should be able to explain how choices are made without Free Will and then with Free Will, and what difference it made in the process. But they don't seem able to do this, or even come close. And while Free Will is a favorite idea of many Dualists (who insist that a person is more than just the mechanistic operation of the brain), it's actually just as much of a philosophical headache for them, because whatever they propose a person really IS, they still are stuck having to provide the same explanation, only in terms of souls or what have you. And there they are even worse off, because of course they have no way at all to examine what a soul is or how it makes choices in the same way we can examine what a brain is.

It's possible that even just asking the question of how choices get made "with" Free Will is deadly to the idea of "Free Will." Once you start explaining the concept, you are committing yourself to some sort of causal chain of events... which is exactly what Free Will was denying or trying to escape responsibility for.

Posted by: Bad | December 2, 2007 10:29 AM

#12

Minor criticism:

"Even today, it is probable that in England and France..."

Surely this should read "In the UK and France" or, less accurately (but still more accurately than "England") Great Britain and France.

Posted by: Adam Cuerden | December 2, 2007 10:37 AM

#13

Bad: My point is that a discussion of "strong" free will -- if that's what it's called -- isn't even worth having.

We already know the answer. Believing that you can contravene natural laws by an act of will (or by appealing to a god) is really just another religion.

Which is pretty much what you said, I guess. :D

I don't like it that the discussion leaps to the absolutist, and concludes no such thing can exist (or that only Jesus can give it to us), when there's SO MUCH to gain from considering it in real terms.

This guy made that same error. I'm an absolute atheist, but nothing in me thinks free will doesn't exist.

As to "weak" or "strong," I think I'd much rather think of them as "realistic" free will as compared to "absolutist" or "mystical" free will. It isn't strong if it's impossible; it's weak as hell.

Posted by: Hank Fox | December 2, 2007 10:46 AM

#14

I'm not particularly fond of calling altruism a selfish act ("People do good for others because it makes themselves feel good"). First, it robs the word "selfish" of predictive power: if you tell me, "John is a selfish man," I should be able to predict something about John's future actions. Will he help James change his car tire? No, he is too selfish to do that — but wait, yes, because helping James will make John feel warm and fuzzy.

Second, I don't think that model of altruism is well-founded in modern neuroscience.

Third, it elides Dawkins' key observation, that our kindness to total strangers may be a mis-firing or a byproduct of neural mechanisms crafted by natural selection in an age when all the people one met were close relatives or potential reciprocators. Altruism doesn't necessarily increase the fitness of our genes today; it helped increase the fitness of our forgotten ancestors' genes thousands or millions of years ago.

Fourth, the idea that we make ethical judgments by calmly weighing each option in mind, dispassionately calculating a utility function and choosing the option of maximal goodness is completely absurd. That's not the way people behave. We decide such matters emotionally, intuitively, instinctively, relying upon the truthiness in our gut. This often causes serious problems, but it's the way our machinery works.

Posted by: Blake Stacey | December 2, 2007 10:46 AM

#15

From Argument (34): The fact that the universe started with maximum disorder means that a god could not have created it, because a purposeful creation would have had at least some order to it.

Not so. It's not trivial, but entirely possible to write a program who's output is completely random. A stronger argument is that any sufficiently large collection of randomness is required to have some sort of ordering.

Another argument that can be added to the list is the following:

The Bible has the greatest copying fidelity of any known work. - The Bible has been published more times than any other work (actually, the IKEA catalog takes that prize) and its copying fidelity is unmatched. This is proof of God's existence.

Showing how the Bible has always had numerous copies present to check the fidelity against is trivially easy. Other works from that era have not had the benefit of mass production - the printing press is less than 600 years old. When there is only one or two copies of a work that would take you six months to acquire, checking for accuracy is difficult at best. When every parish, monastery and most homes have a copy, checking for accuracy is easy.

Posted by: roger | December 2, 2007 10:54 AM

#16

This could be the longest Pharyngula post ever.

I like the systematics, and sometime the specifics, but of course there are points that jumps out as less well argued or even curious. Perhaps a reference list had made it easier to parse those points - and the list is too long to argue that references is diluting the presentation.

Gods as the ultimate free lunch (and as christians would have it, the ultimate false choice) is a good start.

But the interesting list of leaps of faith describes some major religions anthropomorphic gods and finally focuses on abrahamic gods which detracts from it. Similarly later arguments reuse this conception of gods (to great effect, admittedly). I think it gives religions too much to focus on some specific religions delusions.

Then we have the pure apologetics arguments at the end.

Likable is Victor Stenger's argument (#28) against non-existence (symmetry breaking), more so than Sean Carroll's (IIRC that non-existence is outside the support of the knowable ensemble). I assume Stenger takes the observed fact that symmetries are broken (say CP invariance) then they don't have to be preserved (say CPT invariance) and promotes it as a principle with some predictive power. [Stenger is now on my "must read" list.]

But the point on the argument from first cause drops the ball - first cause isn't a scientific description, and the very next argument on physical laws is part of a complete answer. Also, I can't imagine what "the six physical constants of the universe" in point #31 refers to. Perhaps it is a partial list of the most important constants - more savvy religious persons use to include the Standard Model constants of the particle zoo for good reasons.

Finally I have a minor quibble with point #34. Stenger's argument, albeit excellent, isn't necessarily valid in a larger multiverse setting. If I understand it correctly some models of eternal inflation speculates in a prespace where regions spontaneously started to inflate when they happened to exhibit low enough entropy with some small probability. (But I hasten to add, if religious people reads this, of course with high likelihood. :-P) IIRC Andrei Linde has a review article describing those models. But that is still no 2LOT violation.

Posted by: Torbjörn Larsson, OM | December 2, 2007 10:56 AM

#17

Another unconvincing argument for god I've heard a lot (I come from a very fundamentalist background) is that every culture in the world ever found has some kind of independent deity(ies).

I have no idea if this is empirically true, but my usual counter to this is something along these lines:

1. Perhaps that means the human brain is wired to have delusions about deities?

2. Perhaps religion is a cultural virus (I put it this way because most fundamentalists haven't heard of memes) that propagates itself quite nicely.

3. Perhaps developing a religion is the best way of dealing with a difficult environment before people develop empirical science: enshrining certain behaviours into your religion is a better way of making sure they're propagated.

Posted by: katie | December 2, 2007 10:56 AM

#18

I thought the argument of free will is more pragmatic than the philosophical semantics of choice. More like the deterministic or not nature of the universe, rather viewing it at the scale of us as humans.

How can anything fundamental that we know not be subject to the laws of quantum mechanics? I mean, every particle has its probability wave, but for more than just a few particles, it is all but impossible to come up with a significant probability.

So, fundamentally, we can say that every particle's movement is pre-determined by probabilities, but in practice it is utterly unpredictable. Whatever our neurons lead us to act on, is a product of a practically unknowable chain of events.

Sorry to sound like Deepak Chopra, I hope it was clear enough.

Posted by: andyo | December 2, 2007 10:57 AM

#19

I presume the author of this piece has already read Sean Carroll's "Why (Almost All) Cosmologists Are Atheists". If he hasn't, I recommend it.

Posted by: Blake Stacey | December 2, 2007 11:00 AM

#20

Several commenters have drawn a conclusion that I can support - the arguments are too technical (too much Stenger), and the more forceful general arguments becomes diluted. But one can argue at length how a text should be efficiently presented. There is also a value showing independent arguments that comes to the same conclusion.

Btw, Hank Fox mentioned walking through walls, and that reminded me about an error in the list, of the sort that gnaw on you. Point #2 claims it is impossible to walk through walls. Quantum mechanically it isn't impossible for even macroscopic "classical" objects to tunnel through a finite barrier, they too have (a minimally spread) wavefunction associated with them. But the likelihood of observing it during our universe lifetime is vanishingly small.

Posted by: Torbjörn Larsson, OM | December 2, 2007 11:13 AM

#21
Free will is an illusion only if you define it in absolutist terms, to mean something like "the ability to defy all natural laws at will," or "the ability to imagine something literally unthinkable and then to do it."

I've even heard people insist that if you can't defy gravity, or simply DECIDE to walk through a wall, you don't have free will. People who say it would invariably conclude that anybody in a wheelchair automatically doesn't have free will, because they can't walk, despite wanting to. Why even have a discussion about the phrase if you're going to pop out with such stupid arguments?

Yet most of what I hear about free will seems to demand such a definition.


ISTM that this is the kind of free will that people actually believe in when they offer it as an argument for dualism, however much they may deny it. For example, if you say to them, "If God doesn't want people to do x, then why didn't He just make it impossible", guess what answer you're going to get back?


But for some reason they don't think things that really are impossible are relevant to the discussion. Our inability to teleport surely limits our opportunities for misbehavior, yet theologians don't get their panties in a bunch over that.


Free will is just another pick-and-choose belief for dualists. Before you try to refute it as an argument for something, you've got the bigger task of pinning them down on what they actually mean by it. Good luck on that.

Posted by: Bobby | December 2, 2007 11:14 AM

#22

I also have a quibble with #8. Evolution does select for a superior competitor...but it's entirely possible that the superior competitor is religion itself. When people use #8 against me, I usually reply there are lots of very adapted things that we try to eradicate: the common cold, rats, cockroaches... you get the point!

Posted by: katie | December 2, 2007 11:19 AM

#23
Most atheists have no problem admitting that free will may be an illusion.

Bullshit.

Free will is an illusion only if you define it in absolutist terms, to mean something like "the ability to defy all natural laws at will," or "the ability to imagine something literally unthinkable and then to do it."

Count me as an atheist that is unconvinced that we, as humans, make any choices at all. Was I free to choose to post this or not, or was my choice utterly constrained by the laws of physics as they apply to my brain? I honestly don't know.

I doubt that we have free will, even in the definition that you claim is incontrovertible and accepted by everyone.

Posted by: wintermute | December 2, 2007 11:25 AM

#24

There is one extra leap of faith necessary to make the list in the second point complete.

#10: For this particular individual, simultaneous omnisciency and omnipotency are not a logical impossibility.

Posted by: Luis | December 2, 2007 11:29 AM

#25

It will take me a while to read and consider all of these comments, but I do appreciate them and will no doubt make some changes accordingly. It sounds like, at least in some cases, clarification is more necessary than alteration.

But I wanted to address an early comment: that there is repetition, or at least overlap, in this list. Yes, there is. But I have listed them as separate arguments because, as someone pointed out, that's how they are presented to me.

So, for example, there is overlap between "Ethics/Morality" and "Altruism." But I always hear them as separate questions: "If you don't believe in God, where do you/we get morality from?" and "If there's no God, how do you explain altruism when evolution requires us to be selfish?"

The person who called this a "cheat sheet" for atheists has it right, though I hadn't though of it that way before. Thanks, everyone, and keep those comments coming! Feel free to e-mail me directly as well: augustberkshire [at] gmail.com

Posted by: August Berkshire | December 2, 2007 11:35 AM

#26

Free will does not help the cause of religion -- well, Christianity, at least. An omniscient God already knows, before you are born, whether or not you are going to be "saved" or not. The only variable would be if God himself tweaks the initial conditions of your birth (DNA or environment) or intervenes (miracles) afterwards to change your fate.

In such a scenario, any concept of free will, as Christians would have it, is merely an illusion.

Posted by: tacitus | December 2, 2007 11:44 AM

#27

(13) Fear of Hell - what a horrible belief! The insane people who believe it love to abuse their children with this disgusting nonsense. They love to threaten people with torture in hell when they don't agree with their stupidity. Most of these nuts think only their religion can save them from the wrath of their loving god. It's pure insanity and hell believers should be locked up before they harm somebody.

Posted by: BobC | December 2, 2007 11:45 AM

#28
Free will does not help the cause of religion -- well, Christianity, at least.
It doesn't help any religion. Even if it were rigorously demonstrated the free will exists, what bearing would that have on the reality of divinities?

Posted by: Bobby | December 2, 2007 11:59 AM

#29
However, a secular moral code existed before the Bible: the Code of Hammurabi.

Wasn't secular, or at least not marketed as such. The relief on top of the (uh...) pillar shows Hammurabi receiving plates with the laws written on them from the sun god (probably Shamash), and Wikipedia says...

Hammurabi (ruled ca. 1796 BC - 1750 BC) believed that he was chosen by the gods to deliver the law to his people. In the preface to the law code, he states, "Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land."

At least one even older codes of law is known, written in Sumerian and dating from the Ur-III dynasty -- the 21st century BC. The discussion page of the article mentions a few more.

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | December 2, 2007 12:08 PM

#30

Re: (12) "Heaven" (Fear of Death)

"Going to heaven" doesn't solve anything. What if you get to heaven, then decide to rebel against god?

Posted by: Mark Plus | December 2, 2007 12:14 PM

#31

Strike "at least". There are several minutes between the last sentence and the second-to-last sentence of my previous comment.

On another note, Stenger's interesting idea about symmetry-breaking shifts the problem rather than solving it: There is something rather than nothing because perfect symmetry is unstable. But why is it unstable? Maybe because of the 2LOT, but then why does the 2LOT exist, and so on. Still, however, this is progress.

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | December 2, 2007 12:19 PM

#32

On #33... I like the concept of Stupid Design- some structures are so retarted that evolution could never let them still exist, therefore, an incredibly incompetent Stupid Designer must have made them.

Posted by: Monty | December 2, 2007 12:31 PM

#33

#2 is a little overly reflective of a monotheistic, mostly christian perspective, although I'm not even sure all christians think of their god as all-loving. However, there are polytheistic religions who believe in a spiritual realm populated by eternal beings, but it isn't necessary that any of them be all-knowing or all-powerful. I really like this argument, I would probably just stop after #6, or explicitly acknowledge that continuing after #6 is positing additional leaps of faith more specific to monotheism.

Posted by: Peter | December 2, 2007 12:44 PM

#34

What? No Counter to the Argument from Bananas, as perfected by Kirk Cameron?
Not to be outdone by the country's greatest christian philosopher, Alvin Plantinga:
http://www.theapologiaproject.org/two-dozen.htm
Let's hear you refute Colors and Flavors!

Posted by: Yes, It's Sarcasm | December 2, 2007 12:52 PM

#35

Wow, check out the argument from Natural Numbers from that Plantinga link. I suppose you really have to be as intellectually sheltered as a theologian philosopher to think that argument has any merit. It's basically saying that because numbers are concepts employed by minds, and because there are numbers human minds cannot count to, then there must be an infinite mind floating around somewhere that can, as if really really big numbers were something that just had to be constantly conceived of or they would evaporate, or something.

Just think: these guys actually get TENURE for coming up with this batty stuff.

Posted by: Bad | December 2, 2007 1:02 PM

#36

Shouldn't the Argument from Bananas be refuted by Alvin Plantain?

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 2, 2007 1:02 PM

#37

or, for that matter, Simon or Theodore Plantain?

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 2, 2007 1:03 PM

#38

#22 - I don't think your description of love is sufficient to nullify the concept of intangible ideas. There are intangible concepts which we constantly reference. Like love, we may at some point identify common brain functions that relate to ideas like "justice", "charity", "beauty", etc., but the fact that a physical brain is used to process these thoughts does not rebut the conceptual existence of intangible thought.

I think argument #22 needs no rebuttal. God is certainly something that can be imagined. The non-existence of god does not imply that the intangible concept of "god" must not exist. The trouble is that #22 isn't intended as an honest argument. It generally takes the form of "intangible concepts can be said to exist -> therefore Jesus". And that's a non-sequitur.

Or sometimes it's the familiar two-step: worship a fire-and brimstone man in the sky who performs miracles and raises the dead, but if this belief is challenged then defend a god so abstract and meaningless as to be a tautology. Then return to the original belief when the mean old rational person goes away.

Posted by: Spaulding | December 2, 2007 1:37 PM

#39

Here are two more "stupid designs" to add to #33:

First, what idiot placed the uterus just above the bladder, so that a fetus would be able to kick or head butt you in the bladder for nine months? Not very smart. (On a related note, you've probably heard the joke that God is a civil engineer, because only a civil engineer would place a recreation area so close to a sewage treatment plant.)

Second, what kind of imbicile would run a nerve just below the surface of the skin, right at your elbow? That is just plain moronic. Even my orthopedic surgeon, who is not (to the best of my knowledge) omniscient, figured out a better place for it to go -- tucked behind a muscle, safe from cubital entrapment.

Posted by: Rebecca | December 2, 2007 1:43 PM

#40

Argument #34 - most of the time I've heard the Argument from Misunderstanding Thermodynamics, it's been in specific reference to life.

Generally, it's misinterpreted to mean that increase in order is impossible. Obviously, this interpretation is refuted by a kid and a Lego set.

A closer interpretation would be that reducing entropy requires energy. And if you look really, really closely, you'll find that living things do, in fact, consume energy in order to build and maintain body structure. On a larger scale, life on earth is maintained by energy input of the sun.

So a theist using this thermodynamics argument takes the position that there is no such thing as "eating" or "the sun". I'm not sure how to rebut such devastating claims.