Pharyngula

The always perspicacious Chris Clarke is talking about us, in a post where he talks about the pleasures and perils of managing comments on a blog.

I’d be lying if I said I never appreciated a good bar brawl of a comment thread. And some blogs make the free-for-alls work: Pharyngula comes to mind as an example of a wonderful, worthwhile blog with a laissez-faire comment policy. But few blogs have that winning Pharyngular combination of high traffic, sharp focus, distinct blogger personality, and devoted constructive regulars. The chance of a typical low-to-mid-traffic blog ripening into another Pharyngula is, as the blog world matures, decreasing.

He’s got it right — managing comments is tricky stuff, and there are the issues of setting the tone, of culling the more egregious violators, of keeping the place from descending into random madness. Probably the best example of a blog pulling off the delicate balancing act of of getting a convivial and smart continuing conversation going is Making Light; I think Pharyngula has a fine comments section that at least aspires to that level, less the “convivial” part. Chris accurately describes the situation here as a laissez-faire free-for-all.

Do you know how one of the standard scenarios in fantasy role playing games is the wizard in the tower (or the bottom of the dungeon), and you’ve got to fight your way through swarms of weird monsters wandering the stony halls to get to him? That never made much sense to me: why is there this weird mix of stealthy assassins and thuggish ogres prowling about, and why would some lich-king or demon take up residence in such an odd hole in the ground? But then I started this blog, and it’s become clear. It’s a focus for all kinds of raucous melees, so sure, all kinds of interesting denizens will occupy the place. So thanks to all of you readers, we have an interesting assortment of ogres, wizards, goblins, angels, nice townsfolk, and even merchants (the spammers, who don’t last long) dwelling in the hodge-podge maze of the comment threads. It can be a scary place — don’t go down there without full armor — but it’s also an exciting place.

Which brings us to today’s effort in comment management. After a long delay (December is a slow month, so I wanted to give this one more time to gather steam), we have a new Molly winner for December: Dustin. We’ll be giving him a corner crypt with easy access to the main thoroughfare for entering adventurers, along with a +3 Vorpal Sword.

We also need new nominations for this month, so consider this the January Molly nomination thread. While you’re congratulating Dustin, you can also mention someone else you think deserves an exalted position in the wandering monsters table.

Finally, with some trepidation, I’m also making this an Open Enrollment thread. Do you want to be on the Pharyngula blogroll? It’s easy. First, you need a blog with an RSS feed (I do all my blog browsing with a newsreader, so that’s an absolute requirement). Second, you need to give me a link to your blog in a comment here. And finally, you have to pass a test demonstrating that you actually read Pharyngula: name your favorite commenter. (That’s a cunning way to get more votes in the Molly nominations.)

Comments

#1 Chris G.
January 14, 2008

It can be a scary place — don’t go down there without full armor — but it’s also an exciting place.

Cue Babylon 5 music.
#2 Glen Davidson
January 14, 2008

There’s a trick to managing comments: Don’t assume that calling names isn’t an appropriate response to some wanker.

That’s where “moderation” falls down again and again. Someone ignores every question they’ve been asked (or occasionally they might either “address” an issue by quickly shifting topics, or by outright lying), and repeats the same appallingly ignorant and/or dishonest attack. The responses are then rather uncharitable. The “moderator” then attacks the victims of the trolling wanker for using “inappropriate language.” PZ is as pissed-off at these manipulative gits as many of us are, hence he doesn’t bother us for treating them as they deserve.

And that’s why it works, because PZ, unlike most moderators, doesn’t think that all responses are deserving of equal treatment. They are not.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
#3 Chris Bell
January 14, 2008

prometheusretold.blogspot.com

I like Blake Stacey.
#4 Mister DNA
January 14, 2008

I normally try to avoid blogwhoring, but since you opened the door, I’m gonna enter.

First off, naming my favorite commenter is a cinch: Ichthyic. We miss you over at After the Bar Closes.

I recently opened CBEB’s: The Church Burnin’ Ebola Blog. It’s certainly not everyone’s cup of tea – it’s my decidedly lowbrow take on atheism, the evolution-creation debate and music.

Yes, there’s an RSS Feed, but when I post videos they’re streamed from my hosting company (I get better quality than YouTube that way) so you might have to use your browser…

I update pretty frequently, but it might be too lightweight for your blogroll. Nonetheless, others might enjoy it.

Thanks,

Mister DNA
#5 Rey Fox
January 14, 2008

Kagehi. Don’t make me repeat myself. Again. Also, Glen Davidson, even though he does that thing where he puts his name and URL at the bottom of every comment even though the web site already puts everyone’s name and URLs, if given, in the “Posted by” footer.
#6 jfatz
January 14, 2008

Silly, PZ… ALL Vorpal Swords are inherently +3! (It says so right there on page 166 of the DMG.) There’s no reason to mention it specifically, like it could be +2 or +4.

…as if!
#7 AllanW
January 14, 2008

I don’t blog (not enough damn time in the day) so no links from me.

Posters I respect and look forward to;

Ichthyic and Truthmachine.

I look forward to Glen, Scott, Blake posting and of course RD popping in from time to time
#8 Martin
January 14, 2008

http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com

I like Glen D and Ichthyic, plus any mindless creo troll who comes here and leaves with his ass in his hands.
#9 Blake Stacey
January 14, 2008

To those who have mentioned me here, thanks for the kind words. I’ve already got a Molly, but it’s nice to find I haven’t lost my touch.

This month I’d like to nominate Glen Davidson, AJ Milne and MAJeff.
#10 jba
January 14, 2008

Mrs Tilton for OM. Sometimes when I see long comments I skip over them (usually when I’m at work) but when I see Mrs Tilton was the author I always go back and read it.
#11 G
January 14, 2008

Apparently, I’m one of a cadre who likes Blake Stacey. I also happen to like Cuttlefish and Ichthyic.

My blog is at Jyunri Kankei. I write (when I can) about reason, logic, and adventures in life. Oh, I have a feed too.
#12 Carlie
January 14, 2008

Doesn’t Icthy already have a Molly? PZ, you’re going to have to start putting a link to the award list in the nomination posts so we lazy types don’t have to go searching.
I think MAJeff has been quite active and fabulous this go-round, and add to the pile of votes in his favor.
#13 Carlie
January 14, 2008

Damn. I’m a biologist but can’t spell fishy words. You know who I meant.
#14 VWXYNot?
January 14, 2008

I’m at VWXYNot? and I like Cuttlefish and Kseniya (may not have spelled that right).

The first post is not indicative of my blog’s usual content, I was just venting a bit!
#15 Jamie
January 14, 2008

Can I cast negative votes? I want to nullify someone’s vote for this Cuttlefish show-off.
#16 Jamie
January 14, 2008

MAJeff, #48:

Favorite commenter? Probably ichy, but everyone who piles onto our pro-torture, anti-poetry troll is good in my book.

I’ve already addressed this “pro-torture” charge, yet he still repeats it. Do you realize you people are voting for a serial liar?
#17 Efrique
January 14, 2008

There are many good commenters!

However, the first one to come to mind was Blake Stacey. If I skim the comments, I always stop and read if it’s one of his.

My own atheism (mainly) blog is at http://ecstathy.blogspot.com
#18 Gobaskof
January 14, 2008

My blog URL is:
http://www.julianstirling.co.uk/blog
As for a favourite commenter, I have to say I hardly ever take in the names, which is why I never vote on the Mollies, but everyone remembers the poet Cuttlefish.

Also +3 vorpal sword? Assuming that to be a longsword, and adamantine (if you are giving it a +8 bonus you may as well as it can help against DR, not to mention sundering), then that is 75,015 GP that is a lot of cash for any award.
#19 truth machine
January 14, 2008

I’ve already addressed this “pro-torture” charge, yet he still repeats it. Do you realize you people are voting for a serial liar?

Only if we vote for you, Jamie. You have even said that it would be morally right to — indeed, morally wrong not to — torture your own mother if that would save a billion people, and that it’s only selfishness that would prevent you from doing what’s morally right. That is certainly in some sense “pro-torture” and you ought to simply own it.

In counterpoint I offer this, which upon reading immediately made me think of you:

For instance, we don’t punish the innocent even if that would somehow guarantee a safer society, since to do so would violate the Kantian deontological axiom that people be treated as ends in themselves, an axiom that reflects perhaps the central value of our liberal democracy.
#20 Avekid
January 14, 2008

I’ll go in for MAJeff as well. Concise, informative, well-argued… And, not going to lie, comment #41 in this thread just tipped the balance in his favour a little bit more. =)
#21 Jamie
January 14, 2008

Only if we vote for you, Jamie. You have even said that it would be morally right to — indeed, morally wrong not to — torture your own mother if that would save a billion people, and that it’s only selfishness that would prevent you from doing what’s morally right. That is certainly in some sense “pro-torture” and you ought to simply own it.

Another lie. I did not say that that would be “morally wrong”. I said it would be morally acceptable, as there aren’t really any good arguments against it. (Personal repulsion, or “yuck feeling”, is not an argument.) However, I myself wouldn’t do it.

If I’m pro-torture for agreeing with Sam Harris that torture is acceptable in certain extremely unlikely circumstances, then presumably everyone here is pro-murder for believing that murder is acceptable when defending your country from invaders. I think torture should be illegal, and I strongly disagree with its recent use by the American government. But I’m not prepared to say that I don’t think it should be used under any conceivable circumstances, because I simply don’t believe that. How on Earth does this make me pro-torture?

In short, both MAJeff and Truth Machine are clearly liars. They’re persistently and deliberately uttering barefaced falsehoods about me. Disagree with my opinions if you like, but you’re simply lying if you accuse me of being pro-torture.
#22 David Marjanovi?, OM
January 14, 2008

Tulse for Molly.

Jamie for dungeon. Comment 38 is really hard to explain unless he’s a troll.
#23 Jamie
January 14, 2008

Actually, I garbled that correction as well. Nevermind, you can figure it out.
#24 Jamie
January 14, 2008

The Paul Dirac quote is so witty that I’ll post it again:

In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as to be understood by everyone, something that no one ever knew before. But in poetry, it’s the exact opposite.
#25 Sastra, OM
January 14, 2008

Good job wasting years of your life stating the obvious.

Well, somebody’s got to do it!
#26 386sx
January 14, 2008

My vote goes to… Mrs Tilton of coarse.
#27 Brownian, OM
January 14, 2008

MAJeff is past due, so he gets my vote.

Jamie is a jerk-off. I vote something relatively heavy falls on his head.

Don’t like poetry. Fine. Don’t read it, fuckface.
#28 Zarquon
January 14, 2008

Jamie is the anti-Feynman:

No-one cares what you think.
#29 MAJeff
January 14, 2008

Isn’t it about time for a show trial?
#30 Jamie
January 14, 2008

Jamie is the anti-Feynman.

Kind of annoying that you’d say that, seeing as Feynman is one of my long-time heroes.

I had a look at the Dungeon list, and I have to say, I really don’t see how I’m possibly in the same league of obnoxiousness as those fundamentalist cranks. The crime I allegedly perpetrated in this thread was in defending myself against false charges. I’m not pro-torture, full stop. No-one here would like it if I posted lies about them, so please extend me the same courtesy.

Then there’s the poetry thing. Yes, I was trolling — it can be fun, try it. My real views are milder. I was basically presenting a more extreme version of my opinion. I have to say, though, that I thought the reaction I elicited was pathetic. Abounding in that thread were: lies, strawmandering, false depiction of my assertions, ungrounded analysis of my psyche, and inflammatory personal insults, the bandying of which I didn’t start.

So you don’t tolerate here anyone with politically incorrect ideas. This much is plain. What are you supposed to do in the comments if not discuss contrary viewpoints? Cheerlead?

“Yes, PZ, I totally agree! Those creationists are such dumbasses. LOL!”
#31 jfatz
January 14, 2008

Gobaskof: Also +3 vorpal sword? Assuming that to be a longsword, and adamantine (if you are giving it a +8 bonus you may as well as it can help against DR, not to mention sundering), then that is 75,015 GP that is a lot of cash for any award.

3rd Edition is for heathens!
#32 Jamie
January 14, 2008

Hysterical.
#33 Ichthyic
January 14, 2008

I didn’t say when I’ll stop posting. I plan on doing so after you all stop pulling me back in with these stupid falsehoods uttered in mobbish gusto.

LOL

so as long as we can make you cry, you’ll come back to show us?

OK, but don’t expect me to offer you a tissue.

They were absolutely hystical.[sic]

yes, you are hysterical.

better go put on some armor or something, eh?
#34 Ichthyic
January 14, 2008

Wow, now we’re the trolls.

projection’s fun, eh?
#35 MAJeff
January 14, 2008

*applause*
#36 Stanton
January 14, 2008

Wow, now we’re the trolls.

projection’s fun, eh?

Projection is only fun if there is a movie or shadow puppets involved.
#37 Ichthyic
January 15, 2008

most likely a problem nipped in the bud just early enough.
#38 Podblack
January 15, 2008

Hello!

I have probably one big claim to fame – I’m a personal friend of Digital Cuttlefish and his secret will stay with me forever (or at least until he gives me the say-so). Whether that will get me a great plug for my blog – http://www.podblack.wordpress.com (with it’s own handy RSS feed built-in) I don’t know.

But anyone who loves DC’s work as much as I do will get a reader, so thanks to everyone who has posted their blog addy as I’ll add you too!
#39 Rey Fox
January 15, 2008

Not that I want to endorse 4chan or anything like that, but I think they have a word that’s particularly appropriate for our newest dungeon resident: “BAAAAAAAWWWWWWWW!!!!!”
#40 Alan Kellogg
January 15, 2008

This time around I’m going with Ichthyic. Not because I actually like the guy, but because even when he’s not on he’s better than most folks when they are on. Just because you don’t agree with someone all the time does not mean you can’t agree with someone some of the time.
#41 truth machine
January 15, 2008

I must say as well that truth machine really delivered in three monstrous threads (one on Libertarians, a second on torture, and a third on…I don’t even remember anymore).

You’re probably thinking of the global-warming-denial-troll-bait thread, where I posted over 200 comments.

I personally have appreciated the contributions of craig and TW, especially in the torture threads.
#42 Ichthyic OM
January 15, 2008

Just because you don’t agree with someone all the time does not mean you can’t agree with someone some of the time.

FRENCH GUARD:
Well, I’ll ask him, but I don’t think he’ll be very keen. Uh, he’s already got one, you see.
ARTHUR:
What?
GALAHAD:
He says they’ve already got one!
ARTHUR:
Are you sure he’s got one?
FRENCH GUARD:
Oh, yes. It’s very nice-a. (I told him we already got one.)
#43 Mrs Tilton
January 15, 2008

I’m touched by the couple of people who mentioned me above, but really, I don’t contribute very much to PZ’s comments threads; certainly not enough to deserve an award.

Other people do, though. Tough choice to single one out, but I will heartily second (or third, or seventyninth or whatever) the nominations of MAJeff. As for his posts here and elsewhere, I find that (i) I often disagree, and (ii) I eagerly look forward to reading them anyway. For me, that’s the sure mark of a worthwhile commenter. (I could say much the same about Blake, who also has a lot of nominations; but he already has one of those huge glittering solid-gold busts of Our Prophet Darwin that all Molly winners receive at the secret awards ceremony deep in the caverns of Morris.)

Paul @114,

perhaps, in broad terms, you and Jamie do share a consequentialist view of torture. (Disdaining the humanities as he does, of course, Jamie is unlikely to be familiar with the term.) But I feel fairly certain that Jamie wasn’t thrown into the dungeon for his philosophical stance. You seem like a smart fellow; surely you can see what sets you apart from him?
#44 JanieBelle
January 15, 2008

There’s a toss-up between my two favoritest commenters.

Ichthyic and Blake. Ichy’s like a +5 warhammer, ready to smash stupidity at a moment’s notice. I just have the hots for Blake. The things he can do with the written word…

And while it’s been said that I take blogwhoring to a whole new level, you apparently already know where to find me.

(Thank you for all the traffic the other day, btw. I’m just sorry it wasn’t for a better reason than smashing that scum-sucking slimebag Cordova into the ground.) (Not that he didn’t deserve that, mind you.)
#45 maxi
January 15, 2008

I will repeat my nomination for Bride of Shrek. Her posts never fail to be witty or erudite.

Alas, I do not have a blog, so cannot subscribe to the blog roll.
#46 truth machine
January 15, 2008

Arguing against torture even if all life depended on it makes our side look foolish and danverously overemotive

No, actually those who pretend to explore moral principles by talking about scenarios in which all life depends on torture are intellectually dishonest and dangerously manipulative.

and calling those of us who oppose all state-sanctioned torture “pro-torture” because we support it in ludicrous, irrelevant contrived circumstances muddies this vital debate and lends cover to our opponents.

Jamie, in the torture thread, repeatedly used his inconsistent consequentialism to try to not justify but demand the torture of terrorists in supposedly “realistic” scenarios, and suggested that, even if they don’t exist now, they may in 50 years as terrorist organizations become more dangerous. And Jamie appealed to Sam Harris, another Islamophobe who uses similar arguments to weaken resistance to torturing terrorists, as does Alan Dershowitz. There is one and only one reason for Jamie, Harris, Dershowitz, and their ilk to engage in these discussions, at this point in time, with terrorists as their subjects, and that is to pave the way to real torture, all the while pretending to be abhorred by it.
#47 Gobaskof
January 15, 2008

jfatz:

All proper Dungeon and Dragonites belong to the Holy Church of Gygax Triumphant, Reformation of 1977. That you consider the blasphemous Church of the Three and a Half Editions superior to the Word of Gygax speaks ill of your faith, and shows you have abandoned holy scripture to the immoral and decadent rules of this new millennium.
I will hear nothing of it!

To be honest I am just ignorant of the older editions because when I first started playing at the age of about 14 or so, 3.5 was the current edition, so I bought that book. I wasn’t even alive in 1977. Was arcane magic less lame back then? If it was I will apologise and convert.
#48 zer0
January 15, 2008

I didn’t defend the terrible things we’ve done, and I definitely don’t defend the policy choices in the middle east of our current or past Presidents. I don’t agree with the arms deal we’re using to appease the various leaders of the region, especially the Saudis, and I’m sick of America’s involvement in the region. We are addicted to oil, and it’s our only reason for being there. I will say this though: We cannot win a war against an enemy who would have no problem walking into a cathedral with c4 strapped to their chest, when we take the moral high ground and refuse to fire back if they’re standing in the vicinity of a mosque. We have seen this, our soldiers are told to stand down and cease fire if enemy combatants flee into the mosques. We pick up our dead and walk away. We got ourselves into this mess, that’s for damn sure… but we can’t just stand there with our pants down taking it on the chin because we’re moral and civilized.
#49 True Bob
January 15, 2008

zero, most of our “enemies” don’t want to go blow us up. And properly, the Bogeyman O’The Day is addressed through a (functioning) legal justice system, not by torturing poor dirt farmers whose neighbors turned them in for a reward and their land.

If you are that scared, I recommend immediate halting of all kool-aid intake.
#50 zer0
January 15, 2008

If we want to be thought of as a good and moral country then we have to act like it and damn the consequences.

HAHAHAHAHAA…

Because war is all about who’s the most moral, amirite? I hate that we have 18-20 year old boys over there, fresh out of high school, told that they cannot defend themselves if they are being fired at from a mosque. The rules you seem to think battles are fought by… I don’t think the other side read them.
#51 Anon
January 15, 2008

What I’d like to know is (to briefly continue this bit of derail), how it is that the hypothetical scenario can specify that we know that torturing this person will save N others? There is always the risk of “oops, we got the wrong guy, but I’m certain about this next one!”

The justification then is always “yes, we got the wrong one, but just think–if it had been the right guy, we’d have saved millions!” And therein lies the rub; if it is justifiable to torture one person to save millions, surely it is justifiable to torture two. Or ten. Or even thousands; that’s still a great return, and for the greater good.

The omniscience required to say “we are 100% certain that torturing this person will save thousands” is out of our reach. If it were in our reach, we would not need to do the torturing in the first place.
#52 spurge
January 15, 2008

@zer0

“I hate that we have 18-20 year old boys over there, fresh out of high school, told that they cannot defend themselves if they are being fired at from a mosque.”

First: We have no business in Iraq in the first place.

Second: What exactly does your little story have to do with anything?

Did I say it would be immoral to return fire just because someone is in a mosque?
#53 Kseniya
January 15, 2008

[posts before reading the comment thread]

There are always many fine candidates but, for what it’s worth, I’ve been in a Colugo sort of mood over the past month.

(Somehow, I completely missed the Molly vote last month. Congratulations, Dustin.)
#54 Blake Stacey
January 15, 2008

David Utidjian (#48):

I use Google for those purposes, with the “site:” prefix. For example, here are comments posted by Cuttlefish.
#55 bPer
January 15, 2008

Blake Stacey @#142:

I’m not so sure that your “Posted by:” Google search works that well. When I tried it on my own name, I only got 8 hits, but I’m sure I’ve posted more than that. Still, it’s better than nothing. I wish this site had a better search engine.
#56 RamblinDude
January 15, 2008

The Mozart of meter?

LOL

Dang, I had Mozart of metaphor but it didn’t really fit so I threw it out. Yours works.
#57 truth machine
January 15, 2008

Where to begin with that statement tm? So anyone that even considers the greater good or the survival of the species regardless of the act they must commit to ensure said survival… is deranged? Excuse me a moment, *clears throat* WHAT THE FUCK?!?

What the fuck indeed, since that’s not what I said. Try reading it again, this time for comprehension. Although there’s not much to be expected of someone who leans away from a view because of the tone in which it is expressed.

Unfortunately, no matter how civilized we are as a nation, we aren’t fighting another civilized nation. We are fighting a war on fronts in fundamentalist, raped-by-relgion countries still living in the dark ages. We’d be better off if we just chopped off their left hands.

This further makes my point that all these folks saying that they are just talking about extreme hypothetical scenarios and really abhor torture are lying — it’s all about bringing about torture in the hear and now by attempting to weaken resistance to it by creating moral ambivalence.

I do not redact my earlier vote for Truth Machine’s Molly.

Well I do; I don’t post for anyone’s approval.
#58 Lee Brimmicombe-Wood
January 16, 2008

It was asked in the original thread if 12 innocent children should be killed to save 13. If not, then how many does it take to make it acceptable?

This needed to be said. I asked a similar question to Jamie in an earlier thread that he declined to answer. If you are going to base your moral decisionmaking on comparative body counts, you are on a slippery slope. You begin to enter a Bizarro world in which atrocity can be justified on the basis of kill ratios.
#59 John Phillips, FCD
January 16, 2008

Truth machine, if only for his contribution in the torture thread and his attempted education of Jamie, though there are plenty of other reasons. I also would like to spread it about a bit this month with another one for Bride of Shrek, for her posts always raise at least a smile and I still envy Mr. Shrek . Though to be honest, I could easily nominate another half dozen or so equally worthy posters already mentioned by others this month but one has to stop somewhere.
#60 jfatz
January 17, 2008

Gobaskof: To be honest I am just ignorant of the older editions because when I first started playing at the age of about 14 or so, 3.5 was the current edition, so I bought that book. I wasn’t even alive in 1977. Was arcane magic less lame back then? If it was I will apologise and convert.

Arcane magic was way MORE lame back then. But that was after Gygax the Wise felt his church was leaving the True Path, and took his followers elsewhere. The now-blind unbelievers at TSR made every concession they could think of to the Modern Age (or “Munchkin Age”) to grow their influence, fearing reprisal from Lord Gygax’s splinter sect.

I have indisputable evidence that Dan Brown was behind it!
#61 archcrone
February 2, 2008

Like ConnecticutMan1, I thought I had added you to my blogroll and dropped a note in your comments last year. My mistake.

I have since rectified my error, and a link to you is prominently displayed in my blogroll, and I humbly ask that you link to The Crone Speaks in return.

FWIW, while I don’t generally bring it up, the open link policy is in effect all the time at TCS.
#62 Elijah
May 17, 2009

+3 VORPAL!? Now thats a hell of a starter weapon!….damn i cant believe i remember that stuff.