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Category: Politics
Posted on: January 4, 2008 8:14 PM, by PZ Myers
I always considered the US a secular nation, but if certain factions in our government have their way, they will make us a Christian nation by fiat and by falsehood. It's a sordid story of the religious right trying to pass a resolution that uses phony history to prop up right-wing claims of religious lunacy.
We could be a Christian nation. Another word for that is a Christian theocracy.
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Comments
Gee, I wonder when people try and fight this whether or not Christians will try and make claim they are being attacked and that people against the idea are out to stop Christianity as a whole?
The ol' offense guised as defense. It never fails to amaze me that this still works in this day and age...but it does...
Posted by: Lago | January 4, 2008 8:19 PM
Is that House 666?
Posted by: vertalio | January 4, 2008 8:21 PM
Well, now that's something to be depressed about.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | January 4, 2008 8:24 PM
I wonder how long it is 'til them pesky atheists burn down the Reichstag?
Posted by: Lago | January 4, 2008 8:35 PM
Iowa just renamed the GOP: "God's Own Retheocrat Party."
But we knew that already...
Pass it on...
Posted by: Chemist | January 4, 2008 8:39 PM
House Resolution 888, eh? Um... Are these people aware that "88" is shorthand in white supremacist circles for "Heil Hitler"?
That's the first thing that popped in my mind.
Posted by: Kristine | January 4, 2008 8:44 PM
The only prominent Founder who can be accurately described as a Christian was John Adams, who, in 1797 signed the Treaty of Tripoli which states very plainly unequivocally in in Article 11 that The United States is not a Christian Nation:
"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. ... The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
That paragraph should be read from the floor of the Senate at the start every freakin' session.
Posted by: povertyrich | January 4, 2008 8:50 PM
Maybe we should start publicly asking which document politicians will support and defend - Bible or Constitution. Read literally and strictly, the two aren't very compatible (worship no other god, don't work on sunday, stone infidels and adulterers, don't eat shrimp, etc).
Scary part is that I'm not sure that would work in favor of the rationalists right now...
Posted by: dcwp | January 4, 2008 8:50 PM
Resolved:
That Randy Forbes is a fucktard.
That his Christian nation can go fuck itself.
That morons like Forbes stop wasting taxpayer dollars forcing their idiot religious beliefs down other people's throats.
Posted by: CalGeorge | January 4, 2008 9:03 PM
This article nails the Christian agenda to perfection. It is indeed very depressing and a cause for great concern.
Regarding Christianity in America, this push to infiltrate government and make America a theocracy may be the most important issue of our time. It has repercussions in every government decision. These people are dangerous.
This is the work of powerful forces who want to control people, and there is no better way to manipulate a population than make them preoccupied with worshipping and submissive to a religious dogma. The next step is to take over the world for "God".
Posted by: RamblinDude | January 4, 2008 9:03 PM
Define "Christian nation".
If the term is defined by what religion is dominant in American culture then we are very much a Christian nation but with a secular constitution.
Posted by: A Lurker | January 4, 2008 9:06 PM
Why are you minorities always tyrannizing the majority and preventing us from setting up a theocracy, as is our God-given right?
Posted by: jfatz | January 4, 2008 9:10 PM
The next step is to take over the world for "God".
Bloody hell. Can't religites keep their pretend friend in their pants. I'm sick of religious masturbation leading to world domination. Sigh.
Posted by: Brian English | January 4, 2008 9:14 PM
What's so bad about this? After all, they're CHRISTIANS! They're the moral fabric of this nation! Without them we wouldn't have as much homosexually, meth-smoking, or faith-based charity. Geeze, people..
Posted by: Caucasian Jesus | January 4, 2008 9:22 PM
De jure, the United States is a secular nation. (With some anomalies like swearing in ceremonies.) I was going to cite the Treaty of Tripoli but was beaten to it.
De facto, the United States is a ritually theistic nation, but not officially theocratic, and lacking a state church. We have definitely never historically been under a French or Turkish-style laicite.
FDR, radio address, D-Day Speech:
"I ask you to join with me in prayer:
Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity. ...
(H)elp us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice. ...
And, O Lord, give us faith. Give us faith in Thee; faith in our sons; faith in each other; faith in our united crusade....
With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. ...
Thy will be done, Almighty God."
Posted by: Colugo | January 4, 2008 9:26 PM
I wasn't going to email my rep until I found her name in the "yeas" column on HR 847 ("Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith").
Since there were only 9 "nay" votes, not many of us have reason not to be worried. Another 50 (10 "present"/40 "no vote") couldn't find their spines that day.
Pitiful.
(http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll1143.xml)
Posted by: CG | January 4, 2008 9:26 PM
I just realized I sound like a conspiracy theorist; I'm not. It's just that all people around me who believe in Jesus (and there are lots of them) think the same things: that this country is in a moral decline that can only be turned around by "returning" to Jesus, the rapture is coming soon, atheists are the work of the devil, etc. etc. you know the tune. I grew up with this crowd, I know how they think.
Religion is very powerful in this country and Christians are slowly being worked into a righteous manic religious frenzy. (Fox News, anyone?) That is why it is so very important that we, the good guys, who love truth and facts, be absolutely honest and truthful in everything we do. (/preachy exhortation)
Posted by: RamblinDude | January 4, 2008 9:30 PM
I refer the commenter to comment #7.
With or without Article 11, that's a pretty big "if".
The United States of America is a secular nation with a Christian majority. It is a secular nation. Those members of the "oppressed" majority who choose to whine about this need to accept it.
Apparently they never learned, neither in kindergarten nor Sunday school, how to share. They want the whole pie. Well, they can't have it, and they need to accept that, too.
Posted by: Kseniya | January 4, 2008 9:36 PM
If only those claiming that the US was founded as a "Christian nation" would read a bit of Thomas Jefferson's views on Christianity...never mind, it probably wouldn't make any difference.
Posted by: Shaggy Maniac | January 4, 2008 9:39 PM
Jefferson... and Monroe... and Adams... and Franklin... and Washington...
Posted by: Kseniya | January 4, 2008 9:44 PM
We don't have all that many of those types on the WC. Usually you only hear about them when someone robs the cookie jar or gets caught with a 12 year old boy or girl.
The so called red states with high percentages of wingnuts generally have higher rates of social problems such as, poverty, child poverty, teen age pregnancy, divorce, and lower rates of higher education than the national average. Texas is a typical example.
It could be that the fundies are right about the moral decline. It could be that they are the cause of it. To get all biblical, it is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Posted by: raven | January 4, 2008 9:54 PM
...But not James Madison, apparently. He said that the US was a Xian country. (And then the bigger intellectual heavyweight, Thomas Jefferson, pulverised him with the Virgina Statutes and the Treaty of Tripoli. Tell that to the theocrats.)
Posted by: Kimpatsu | January 4, 2008 9:55 PM
It is just as legitimate to argue that the U.S. is a protestant nation as it is to argue that it is a Christian nation. I would love to see the Catholic majority on the Supreme Court weigh in on the constitutionality of that proposition.
Posted by: Patrick Quigley | January 4, 2008 9:59 PM
we might be soon........i just wonder if we will be a real Christian nation or a Mormon Christian nation......this is going to be fun!!!!
It will be like native American genocide all over again. Hey Indians, you aren't the original inhabitants of this land descended from Asia. You are bad Jews that god cursed with dark skin.....OH and by the way..don't criticize my Mormon religion.......its not nice
Posted by: CleveDan | January 4, 2008 10:14 PM
A good idea:
Take note of the refutations of Forbes found in the cited Daily Kos article. Commit a few to memory. Drop them in casual conversation or employ them in reply to claims that "some others" might make. This could have a larger effect than may first seem obvious.
After all, word-of-mouth advertising is highly prized, the latest craze or fad spreads mostly by example and imitation. Consider that the joke that you made up and told to your friends and that you heard months later in a different place has spread in the most common fashion: one on one connection. It's been working longer than any other form of communication. It carries the cachet of personal conviction and appeal. It has an intimacy about it that authoritative pronouncements from over groomed news readers cannot achieve. Nor, for many, priests even.
Learn your history and regale your friends with tales more fascinating and revelatory than revisionism can muster! Onward into the secular fog!
E Pluribus Unum
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | January 4, 2008 10:36 PM
After all, word-of-mouth advertising is highly prized, the latest craze or fad spreads mostly by example and imitation.
That's called a meme. Blame that godless scientist Richard Dawkins.
Posted by: Kimpatsu | January 4, 2008 10:40 PM
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." James Madison "The Father of the Constitution"
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." Thomas Jefferson
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" John Adams
"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun." Thomas Paine
"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man." Thomas Jefferson
Posted by: mayhempix | January 4, 2008 10:47 PM
Shaggy Maniac #19: If only those claiming that the US was founded as a "Christian nation" would read a bit of Thomas Jefferson's views on Christianity...
And I assume that all the people who claim that the Constitution is based in Christian Whatever have never heard of the Constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy, which is essentially the same document, if a bit more foofily worded.
Posted by: ethan | January 4, 2008 10:49 PM
Not just Christian, mind you, but only a certain brand of Christianity (from the 20,000 or so brands of that religion). Since we've already had the "should the US torture?" debate and decided the answer is "yes", now it's time for the one big debate within the Christianist/Dominionist sect that will rule all others in the USA: "Do we bring back slavery?"
Really. That's one of their internal divisions. Rumor has it that Ralph Reed is on the "yes" side; this is not minor no-clout nobodies.
The real question here is: when, if ever, are "moderate" Christians going to start speaking up and being loud about it? Do they want to lose their religion in favor of a brand of Christianity that seriously debates whether or not to bring back slavery?
Posted by: QrazyQat | January 4, 2008 11:02 PM
Resolved, That the United States House of Representatives----
(2) recognizes that the religious foundations of faith on which America was built are critical underpinnings of our Nation's most valuable institutions and form the inseparable foundation for America's representative processes, legal systems, and societal structures;
That second resolution in the closing text is what is (probably) going to kill this. The rest of the crap on affirming America's "diverse" spiritual history may sound vaguely like the language used for picking the National Fruit, but this one smells so strongly of theocracy it's likely to wake the House up.
Religion is the inseparable foundation of our legal system? Only if they manage to slide in the idea that they're gathering in anything and everything that falls under 'principles' and 'ethics' and calling it 'religion.' Which the rest of the document makes clear they are not. When they say religion, they mean religion. Not ceremonial deism.
Posted by: Sastra, OM | January 4, 2008 11:08 PM
Sigh.
Posted by: D | January 4, 2008 11:48 PM
Call me stupid, but I'm not going to get my panties in a twist over a Representative's resolution that found support among a whopping 7-ish percent of the rest of the House.
Posted by: J.R. "Bob" Dobbs' hair gel | January 4, 2008 11:49 PM
The linked dKos article is very instructive. I wasn't aware that religious politicians use the standard deceptive tactics they use for repro health bills when dealing with, of all things, history.
Posted by: ema | January 5, 2008 12:03 AM
Well, according to Jacoby's FREETHINKERS, there was a proposed Constitutional amendment to write "God" and "Jesus Christ" in, made during Lincoln's presidency. He promised to "study it", and nothing was ever heard of it again.
There is -- and from my limited knowledge of American history -- has always been an undercurrent of rampant, irrational religiosity in American tradition and culture, and a dangerous one at that. Wishing things were different -- or thinking this is a new thing -- does not make these so.
Posted by: ekzept | January 5, 2008 12:07 AM
I hear ya JR but, it's still disturbing that it would even be suggested........and praise Bob
Posted by: CleveDan | January 5, 2008 12:17 AM
My Rep is James McGovern (D-Mass). He has a weak record on other Constitutional rights, too, and did not respond to a December email complaining about 888.
Posted by: dkew | January 5, 2008 12:26 AM
My rep(Kucinich)is on the sub-committee. I wrote asking him to actually bother showing up and voting against it, but fat chance of that. He always has more important things to do, like tilting at windmills.
Posted by: pablo | January 5, 2008 12:57 AM
When someone officially announces we're a christian nation, my ass will be on its way to britain.
Posted by: Capn' Cosmo | January 5, 2008 1:20 AM
When do we get to start waterboarding the heathens?
Posted by: yogi-one | January 5, 2008 1:33 AM
That Kucinich comment says a lot.
We should be regaling the people who voted NO and even PRESENT on 847 with praise.
They really do likely appreciate all the support for them that we can muster.
This is likely a small vote in the grand scheme of things, but any props given to them, at the very least, tells them that they aren't just a voice in the wilderness. It's a difficult job, being in Congress and being liberal. Let them know that they aren't alone.
phat
Posted by: phat | January 5, 2008 1:56 AM
The US was founded as a slave holding nation with women being property. Should we codify that too? At least these people would start being honest about their views in that case.
Posted by: Mena | January 5, 2008 2:17 AM
America is becoming a godless, atheist country as there has been a concerted attempt for quite some time by certain secular Jewish groups to slander and degrade Christianity. I'm just glad that I'm Buddhist and don't have to see my philosophy spit upon by that group of people, although it is highly likely that they, after having had their way with all things Christian, will eventually start taking stabs and swipes at Buddhism as well.
Posted by: Expat Onlooker | January 5, 2008 2:20 AM
"When someone officially announces we're a christian nation, my ass will be on its way to britain."
Which is actually an officially Christian nation. (But they aren't too obnoxious about it.)
Posted by: craig | January 5, 2008 4:00 AM
"America is becoming a godless, atheist country as there has been a concerted attempt for quite some time by certain secular Jewish groups to slander and degrade Christianity. I'm just glad that I'm Buddhist and don't have to see my philosophy spit upon by that group of people, although it is highly likely that they, after having had their way with all things Christian, will eventually start taking stabs and swipes at Buddhism as well."
An anti-semitic Buddhist... that's a new one.
Regarding the OP:
Fuckity fucking fuck.
Posted by: Ragutis | January 5, 2008 4:14 AM
As a permanant resident of the country I live in, if the U.S. goes down the theocracy route which seems to be were it is headed I will seriously have to consider my citizenship options. The Democrats have win this coming election or the country is in deep shit all the way. This is their election to win or lose. Just for your information I do vote absentee.
Posted by: Ex Partiot | January 5, 2008 4:37 AM
That's just specious.
However. they are, no doubt, very much aware that 888 is the number of Jesus:
Not only are they engaged in historical revisionism, they're promoting bat-shit-insane numerology. Just another winking nod to their fellow travelers that by "spiritual and religious history" they actually mean "Jesus is Lord!"
Posted by: jpf | January 5, 2008 4:46 AM
Re; comment #43 "Which is actually an officially Christian nation."
True; Church of England (Anglicanism). At the last official census the percentage of the population that attended ANY church on any regular basis was 6%. The third largest category of belief (larger than Catholics, Jews, Sikhs etc) was 'Jedi'. I kid you not. I like to see this as a response of 'Fuck you and your religion. I don't have one. Now back off.'
The point that's interesting is that we are 'officially' a Christian country that in practice is very secular whereas the States is officially a secular country that in practice is highly religious (church attendance percentages anyone?).
If things got bad here I'd head for Sweden or Denmark but I'm sure we'd welcome Craig and Cap'n Cosmo here like a shot as religious refugees.
Posted by: AllanW | January 5, 2008 4:52 AM
"America is becoming a godless, atheist country as there has been a concerted attempt for quite some time by certain secular Jewish groups to slander and degrade Christianity. I'm just glad that I'm Buddhist and don't have to see my philosophy spit upon by that group of people, although it is highly likely that they, after having had their way with all things Christian, will eventually start taking stabs and swipes at Buddhism as well."
An anti-semitic Buddhist... that's a new one.
Regarding the OP:
Fuckity fucking fuck.
Posted by: Ragutis | January 5, 2008 4:14 AM
Not anti-semitic but not pro-semitic either, so lay off the namecalling, little man. Try challenging my point...if you can.
Posted by: Expat Onlooker | January 5, 2008 4:58 AM
As a permanant resident of the country I live in, if the U.S. goes down the theocracy route which seems to be were it is headed I will seriously have to consider my citizenship options. The Democrats have win this coming election or the country is in deep shit all the way. This is their election to win or lose. Just for your information I do vote absentee.
I too am a permanent resident here in Thailand, and am being processed for Thai citizenship. America is becoming fascist, and I refuse to have an affinity with such country. The America I knew and loved is dead and gone, and I see a new America emerging- one that is increasingly 3rd-world, less prosperous, less educating, and with only a small, insignificant voice in world affairs. From envy of the world to laughing-stock of the world in less than 40 years. It is truly amazing.
Posted by: Expat Onlooker | January 5, 2008 5:05 AM
"First the Jews came for the Christians and I did not speak out because I was a Buddhist..."
Also, as a non-Jewish Secularite who isn't aligned with any group, I am offended that my contributions to the slandering, degradifying, and general spituponification of Christianity isn't being acknowledged!
Posted by: jpf | January 5, 2008 5:10 AM
America is becoming a godless, atheist country...
Since we're talking about a country where a solid majority of voters say they would never, under any circumstances, vote for an atheist no matter how well qualified, the above quoted statement is insanely ignorant (at best).
Posted by: QrazyQat | January 5, 2008 5:35 AM
But, but, but, QrazyQat! Haven't you read the Protocols of the Elder Secularists? Their devious plans for global domination are all right there:
1) Replace "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holidays".
2) Write some books.
3) Have said books made into movies.
4) Impurify our precious bodily fluids with SOY!
5) Lull the voters into complacency by making them think they're consistently not voting for any atheists, then on December 21, 2012, have all politicians rip off their faces (actually masks made from cultured stem cells) to reveal their true Reptiloid Atheist forms.
And finally...
6) Round up all Christians and put them into Death Camps!
The Buddhists will be safe, though. For now...
Posted by: jpf | January 5, 2008 5:57 AM
BTW, I'm in Thailand right now, for the second year, and one thing you find here -- which most expats hate, are evangelical Christians who attempt to convert Buddhists, and of course, are known for being outrageous liars.
I did run into one couple though who were happy their friend was "spreading the word of Christ" here but who thought the Iraq war (and the Vietnam war) was an awful mistake/screwup/etc. so there is some hope for a few of these folks. Being perhaps too polite an atheist, I resisted the urge to ask why their friend was doing such a cruel thing to such nice people.
Bottom line though; any expat, and esp. any Buddhist expat, in Thailand who thinks that atheists and Jews are their big problem, moreso than evangelical Christians, isn't thinking straight.
Posted by: QrazyQat | January 5, 2008 6:52 AM
Ex Pat Onlooker, I agree with you 100% the United States is becoming the laughing stock of the world and if things don't change it will beome a country that no one will respect or trust any longer. I also feel that with the war that is being waged against science by the fundie nuts the States eventually start suffering a brain drain and lose any advantage they had in different fields of research and development.
Posted by: Ex Partiot | January 5, 2008 7:44 AM
Bottom line though; any expat, and esp. any Buddhist expat, in Thailand who thinks that atheists and Jews are their big problem, moreso than evangelical Christians, isn't thinking straight.
If anything, you would think that the Buddhists would be our allies. Their philosophy doesn't even seem to require a deity (unless Buddha himself is considered a deity), and for the most part they have not shown the same proclivity towards violence and forceful conversions as their Abrahamic counterparts.
Posted by: Brandon P. | January 5, 2008 7:49 AM
Allan, I'd take that offer in a heartbeat... except your country doesn't seem to be too interested in having disabled (and therefore unable to earn an income, and also needing lots of health care) people emigrate. I looked into it.
Please prove me wrong, I'd love to get the hell out of here. At least then I wouldn't have to download "Time Team" to watch it.
Posted by: craig | January 5, 2008 8:40 AM
Re; comment #56
Ah! I see the problem. You have been presuming to only look at the rules. I'm not aware of any state in the world who encourages migration in the circumstances you refer to.
And I would not encourage anyone to deliberately circumvent the rules.
On a totally different topic, has anyone else noticed just how much illegal immigration occurs and how ineffective the state seems to be in combating it? In the UK for example, the borders have been effectively open for all kinds of migration (both legal and illegal) for at least twenty years. In effect the only migrants who seem to be deported are the ones who fall into the criminal justice system for obvious offences.
There has been a de facto amnesty on illegal immigration here for a very long time, it seems to me. What is the position in the Staes? I haven't been exposed to the daily lives and problems of illegal immigrants through my work, you understand, but I have read of many immigrants who have been allowed to become citizens here without following the proscribed track.
Posted by: AllanW | January 5, 2008 8:56 AM
Well, maybe the jesus freaks with the Huckster might do something about world poverty, anyway something they haven't done before.
http://www.poverty.com/internationalaid.html
Why are all those godless nordic countries and other godless Europeans so much more generous than good American Xians?
The 0.7 percent figure was already decided on back in the 70's, but most countries, especially the U.S. never lived up to it. Face it, American xians are greedy cheapskates.
Posted by: bernarda | January 5, 2008 8:56 AM
@Expat Onlooker #48: ""America is becoming a godless, atheist country as there has been a concerted attempt for quite some time by certain secular Jewish groups to slander and degrade Christianity. I'm just glad that I'm Buddhist and don't have to see my philosophy spit upon by that group of people, although it is highly likely that they, after having had their way with all things Christian, will eventually start taking stabs and swipes at Buddhism as well. . . . Not anti-semitic but not pro-semitic either, so lay off the namecalling, little man. Try challenging my point...if you can."
America is 68% Christian. Polls show a vicious and deplorable bias AGAINST atheists. As for the rest of your "point", it's batshit insane. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so the burden rests on you to support your "point", buddy boy.
BTW, if you want to aim an ad-hom against me, I'm a woman. So, "little girl" would be your best bet.
Posted by: Leigh | January 5, 2008 9:05 AM
I refer you to what I actually wrote which you quoted and then replied as if I wrote something completely different.
What is written in the Constitution is about the government which is not the end-all of this nation. Nor does it define culture. Culturally, the United States is overwhelmingly Christian. But that culturally Christian nation has a secular constitution which demands a secular government (which is unfortunately being ignored by the far right).
That the "majority" needs to accept that the United States has a secular constitution demanding secular government and that we have laws demanding no religious discrimination by employers, etc. is something that I will not argue with. Though it might be pointed out that in this case, the "majority" is a minority. Far right Christians are simply not a majority. And even most of them would rebel at the notion of their pastor having legal authority to tell them what to do when outside of a church setting. Christians have been influenced by our secular constitution and institutions far more then they know or admit. Most of them are ignorant of the consequences of breaching the separation of church and state.
I am at a loss why you would think that I would disagree.
Culture ≠ Constitution.
The term "nation" means more than a mere "country" in that the term nation implies that there exists a dominant culture. Christians are not just a strong majority but they have shaped the culture in such a way that it would be impossible to recognize it without it. Indeed the cultural influence is even greater than their shear numbers.
Finally I will state that I do hope that the culture of the nation does drift away from Christianity. But that, if it happens, will be the process of decades (and possibly more).
But as someone who believes in secular government, I don't think it is the governments job to do this.
Posted by: A Lurker | January 5, 2008 9:07 AM
America is becoming a godless, atheist country...
Sigh. If only. If only. Please don't get my hopes up.
Posted by: gsb | January 5, 2008 9:07 AM
Also BTW, I'm a Christian, and nobody's been spitting on me -- other than some fundiegelical correligionists. And anybody who claims that certain "secular Jewish groups" have been slandering and degrading Christianity IS an anti-semite, in the absence of some pretty strong proof of such a conspiracy.
Posted by: Leigh | January 5, 2008 9:09 AM
Expat Onlooker said: Try challenging my point...if you can.
Uh, what point? You lay out some broad conspiratorial claims without any specifics and then ask someone to "challenge your point"? You don't make any point.
Okay, I'll challenge you: no, they're not.
How's that work for ya?
Posted by: Ric | January 5, 2008 9:14 AM
How exactly do you slander Christianity anyway?
Posted by: craig | January 5, 2008 9:22 AM
As ema and Crudely Wrott noted, u'll find it worthwhile to link through to the article that details the refutations, at
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/1/4/24725/53989
Evidently, the proselytizers treat history the same way they treat science: when you are in the wrong, simply make up crap, because your audience is unlikely to have on hand the details they need to refute you. Lying for Jesus is obviously okay with these people.
Posted by: N.Wells | January 5, 2008 9:26 AM
You might want to think again.
Posted by: Rich Stage | January 5, 2008 9:41 AM
If anything, you would think that the Buddhists would be our allies. Their philosophy doesn't even seem to require a deity
One thing you tend to find -- certainly with Buddhism -- is that the core ideas contain some good sounding stuff, but as you get more elaborate and add more layers of authority you get worse and worse. For instance, there's the Dalai Lama's homophobia, or the power- and money-grubbing of many Buddhist temple leaders and priests. This seems to be the case with most religions, probably all. They tend to build elaborate power structures (and of course need money to build those plus big physical structures) and attract people who seek power over others. I'd say that pretty well messes up any religion even without considering the business of thinking that believing without evidence is better than wanting evidence before believing.
Posted by: QrazyQat | January 5, 2008 9:53 AM
The statistics and facts don't support this prejudice.
90% of Americans self identify with a religion, 82% of that is Xian. The Death Cultists own president Bush, controlled the US congress up until 2006, and own the republican party and Texas. Hardly the position a downtrodden minority of only 82% of the population, would have.
Name those secular Jewish groups that slander and degrade Xianity. I live in the USA, born here, and can't think of a single one. Right now the fundie Xians and the Jews are great friends for some reason. I think it is because the Jews own Israel and the fundies need Israel so Armageddon can take place. That is when god kills almost everyone and ends the world. [These people must have very miserable lives if there fondest hope is to watch 6.7 billion people get murdered.]
And BTW, who really hates the USA and have degraded it and will degrade it to a banana republic if they can are fundie Death Cult Xians. They seek to overthrow the USA government, set up a theocracy, and head on back to the Dark Ages. They say so constantly and have made some progress. For the not really antisemite, read the original post again. That resolution declaring the US a Xian nation passed almost unanimously.
Posted by: raven | January 5, 2008 10:25 AM
wtf?! could that kostard make that post any longer and more obtuse? could that kostard have been more ineffective? I don't think so
no wonder the republithugs keep winning
Posted by: me | January 5, 2008 10:33 AM
Yo, "me" @#69: Wassamatta? Did he use too many words of more than one syllable for ya? Poor baby!
Posted by: Eamon Knight | January 5, 2008 11:05 AM
To anyone that thinks it is okay for religion to continue to have power and authority, I would direct you to read Hector Avalos's Fighting Words. He argues that religion creates an unverifiable scarcity of "truth" no matter what its claim to authority. In other words, all religions by their vary nature add an unnecessary complication to the problem of humanity struggling with the real scarcities.
And they cause real harm in trying to enforce their solutions on the remainder of society. It may seem like a blanket claim, but he certainly makes a strong case by examining religion in economic terms.
Posted by: Mike Haubrich, FCD | January 5, 2008 11:05 AM
Well, the author could have thrown in a few "republithugs" or "*tards" to make it even more ineffective.
Although I do agree with you that that article typified the disorganized, unreadable ramblings that I see half the time when someone links to something on Daily Kos. Which is, I guess, why I never go there unless prompted to by more readable sources.
Posted by: jpf | January 5, 2008 11:10 AM
I just sent the following to my representative. I urge other pharyngulites to do the same. Be polite, use your own words, and pick a specific example or two from the Daily Kos article. No need to indicate your atheism if you think it will counter the weight of your argument.
Dear Representative:
I am writing today to urge you to vote against House Resolution 888, "Affirming the rich spiritual and religious history of our [Nation]".
I worry that there are people in the U.S. and even in Congress who wish to turn this country into a Christian theocracy. Resolution 888 seems to be part of an attempt on such people to establish one official American religion. I find this contrary to principles of freedom set forth in the Constitution by our Founding Fathers.
I am concerned that the passage of this resolution not only contradicts the principles encoded in the Bill of Rights, but also establishes erroneous ideas about our history as "fact". Such inaccuracies about the Founding Fathers are typical of the pseudo-history found on Christian nationalist websites, and do not belong in the official Congressional record. One example out of many is the quote-mining of Adams's declaration of Independence Day, which selectively reports that he wrote: "[Independence Day] ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty", while conveniently omitting that he also wrote: "[it] ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with Shews, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations" (John Adams to Abigail Adams Philadelphia July 3, 1776, Paul H. Smith, ed., Letters of Delegates to Congress, vol. 4, (Washington D.C.: Library of Congress, 1976), 376).
I note with disappointment that you voted for House Resolution 847, "Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith." I find it inappropriate for any representative of the government to express approval of a particular religion, no matter what proportion of the citizens belong to it. As Thomas Jefferson wrote, "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg" (Notes on Virginia, 1782).
I frequently find myself in complete agreement with you, and in general, I am proud to have you as my Representative in Congress. I hope that you will not continue voting in support of un-Constitutional bills such as Resolutions 847.
Posted by: Manduca | January 5, 2008 11:49 AM
Agree with raven, if you assert that 'certain' jewish groups are spitting on christianity then anti-semitism is a reasonable conclusion.
Love the way some people use the word 'certain' to mean, 'I know who they are, but this knowledge is only for those already in the know.' Actually, I don't love it. I find it creepy and annoying. If you have information put it on the table, if you don't then stop insinuating that you do.
For some reason it reminds me of the Tory election slogan. 'Are you thinking what we're thinking?' To which the only reply is 'Fuck, I hope not.'
Posted by: Don | January 5, 2008 12:03 PM
Why do I get the feeling that lurking behind that reference to "certain secular Jewish groups" is the dread tetragrammaton, ACLU?
At least Expat is honest and/or guileless enough to reveal the fact that his gripe is with Jews. You just know that this kind of sentiment underlies a lot of the rightist caterwauling against the ACLU, PFAW, etc., but they rarely come right out and say so.
Posted by: noncarborundum | January 5, 2008 12:19 PM
How do you slander Xity on this board? Slander means "defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc." Since this is writing, shouldn't it be called libel? But wait, libel is "defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures" which hasn't been done here. It's not libel or slander if the statement is true.
Posted by: Alverant | January 5, 2008 12:44 PM
Re: Is H.Res 888 a problem ?
Here's a quick thought to consider -
Last December, the soft Christian Nationalist "Christmas Resolution" passed in the House on a vote of 327-9
House Resolution 888 is what I'd call a "hard Christian nationalist" ( or theocratic ) resolution. Does it have a chance ?
Do you care to take that risk ?
Posted by: Bruce Wilson | January 5, 2008 12:53 PM
Expat Onlooker (#42): in order for anyone to counter your points, you first need to make one, and support it with some kind of evidence. Accusatory broadsides such as "America is becoming a godless..." etc. blah blah blah, "secular Jewish conspiracy" blah blah blah, aren't really arguable. Those are conclusions asserted without proof.
I will say this: I see nothing wrong with a godless, atheist America. I certainly have no problem with a secular government that does not give preference to any religion in particular, or religion at all. Apparently, neither did the framers of the Constitution, as neither the word "God" nor "Bible" are used as an authority for establishing our legal framework.
In more succinct terms: piss off, moron.
Posted by: FrumiousBandersnark | January 5, 2008 1:22 PM
Posted by: Krystalline Apostate | January 5, 2008 1:29 PM
I was planning to send a strong letter to my representative.
But then I remembered that she's dead.
So, until the special election, you guys are on your own.
Posted by: steve james | January 5, 2008 3:12 PM
I sent this to Thelma Drake who is a fellow Virginian rep of Forbestard. She votes in lock step with him on every issue. BTW, Forbes won't listen to anyone outside his district.
Honorable Rep Drake;
I call your attention to HR 888. This resolution seems harmless enough on its face, just a feel good endorsement of religion in America. In reality it is riddled with many misinterpretations of our history. Many of the statements in this resolution have been debunked many times by many historians. I will not address each of the issues of this misguided resolution, I will point each of you, or your staff, to a web site that provides detailed information: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/1/4/24725/53989. This may serve as a starting point for actual research.
Since I can't email Mr. Forbes, perhaps you could suggest to him that, as the main sponsor of this resolution, I would recommend that he undertake serious historical research of the many erroneous statements found therein. For many years members of conservative religious groups, generally known as the "Religious Right", have been distorting history to advance their cause of inserting their view of what religion should be into various government entities.
America's greatest strength, indeed it greatest contribution to the world, is the notion of a completely secular state. By placing a firm wall of separation between government and religion, both are protected in a way never before seen in the world. Contrary to musings of the "Religious Right", the Founders very carefully and deliberately created a completely secular state. There is no support for the notion that America was, or is, a "Christian Nation". The fact that a majority of Americans are, indeed, Christians, in no way supports this notion of a "Christian Nation".
I would beg of you to reconsider this ill-advised action. It demeans both the Congress of the United States and America as a whole.
Posted by: Red Mann | January 5, 2008 4:30 PM