…and this is a 
Do we really care what the Pope says anymore?
Category: Religion
Posted on: January 30, 2008 8:46 AM, by PZ Myers
Many people have been sending me links to the latest comments by our charming Catholic pontiff, and I don't know, I'm just finding the old boy increasingly irrelevant as he continues his reactionary slide into medieval thinking. More and more it's like hearing reports of what some random homeless man in a Philadelphia subway station ranted about — it's amusing and appalling, but it's hard to work up the outrage to care any more. Yes, you can argue that the Pope is influential, but even there, how many self-identified Catholics pay any attention at all to what he says about contraception, for instance? But alright, once more unto the breach, etc.
So here's what the pope babbled recently.
Pope Benedict warned Monday of the "seductive" powers of science that overpower man's spirituality, reviving the science-versus-religion debate which recently forced him to cancel a speech after student protests.
"In an age when scientific developments attract and seduce with the possibilities they offer, it's more important than ever to educate our contemporaries' consciences so that science does not become the criterion for goodness," he told scientists.
Yeah, this pope has a history of saying blithering nonsense about science, so I'm glad to see student protests at the waste of university resources in bringing this bozo to campus (random homeless men in Philadelphia subway stations are available, are less expensive, will be far more appreciative of the honorarium, and will be just as cogent.)
I don't think anyone is arguing that science is a criterion for "goodness". Many of us are adamant that religion is not a criterion for "goodness," either, and that science is at least a criterion for accuracy. This is not a moral debate, although one could say that there is moral value in having some respect for the truth … not that the Catholic church has any interest at all in that, favoring instead the perpetuation of institutionalized nonsense.
Scientific investigation should be accompanied by "research into anthropology, philosophy and theology" to give insight into "man's own mystery, because no science can say who man is, where he comes from or where he is going", the Pope said.
"Man is not the fruit of chance or a bundle of convergences, determinisms or physical and chemical reactions," he told a meeting of academics of different disciplines sponsored by the Paris Academy of Sciences and Pontifical Academy of Sciences.
Leave theology off the list of disciplines that are useful in this endeavor.
Science does say who man is; it's pretty damn specific about what we are, an odd sub-branch of the primate clade in the chordate family tree, and it is full of specifics on anatomy, physiology, behavior, culture, etc. It also explains with considerable detail where we came from — that long lineage of 4 billion years of evolution — and also gives mechanisms. On where we're going … well, he does have us there. Science isn't soothsaying. Of course, theology doesn't help there, either. Theology makes claims about where we're going, but it's always wrong and it always seems to be just pulling predictions out of its great hairy abstraction of a butt.
As for that last comment … show me what else Man is. I love how these faith-imbued gomers always belittle "mere" physical and chemical reactions, when there is nothing more grand and majestic than the natural processes that drive our universe. Yes, life is a great big elaborate chemical reaction — isn't that wonderful? Why act as if this is a shameful possibility? Personally, I've long found the petty deified tyrant of the Christian religion to be an unsatisfyingly trivial explanation, with van der Waals forces alone being far more potent and glorious.
I won't suggest that this silly old man ought to be consigned to a life of cadging handouts from commuters in Suburban Station in Philadelphia, but I really think he deserves to be shuffled off to a nice retirement home. He can still have fancy gold stitchwork done on his slippers and bathrobe, but really … his authority should be nonexistent.
Politics
Comments
What credentials does this man have to judge these things except for claiming to speak with his invisible friend?
Posted by: Daldianus | January 30, 2008 8:52 AM
Reminds me of the drunk and brain-damaged Moses.
Posted by: danley | January 30, 2008 8:56 AM
My girlfriend is always pleased when this Pope goes on one of his medieval diatribes. She says she thinks that the leader of the Catholics should be an anachronistic dinosaur--a kind of theological timecapsule. She was always dissapointed when the last Pope would make some "progressive" moves away from the 13th century. It's all about the entertainment value for her. And I've told her again and again that the Catholic Church is not here for her personal amusement. I just can't decide what else it IS good for.
Posted by: Diego | January 30, 2008 8:57 AM
"Nowadays men lead lives of noisy desperation."
-----------------James Thurber
"half-empty churches, a certain 'tiredness' in our communities, some Catholic schools fast-losing their identity, absence of young adults in our churches ."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/court_and_social/article3260539.ece
Posted by: marcia | January 30, 2008 9:05 AM
Funnily enough, I commented on this yesterday; I find it rather amusing that after 2,000 years (give or take) theology still can't work out what man is, where he came from, or where he's going, when I managed to work them all out it 10 minutes or so.
But, then, maybe the Pope doesn't know where he came from because he's never done the thing required to make people come from somewhere. Theoretically.
Posted by: Armchair Dissident | January 30, 2008 9:08 AM
If "pulling predictions out of its great hairy abstraction of a butt" is original with you, then I hereby award you with the First Annual Metaphor of the Year Award.
Posted by: Archaeopteryx | January 30, 2008 9:09 AM
Right on! Now the university is facing a backlash from the Italian public! And the physicists who co-signed the protest letter are being denied funding. You can also read about that here.
Teh stupid, it burns!
Posted by: maxi | January 30, 2008 9:10 AM
Ach, i'm still new with this html malarky. The link I wanted to post is here?
Posted by: maxi | January 30, 2008 9:12 AM
The Pope bemoans the world's reliance
On, not his word, but that of science;
If I might guess, what really irks
Is: Even he knows... science works.
Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | January 30, 2008 9:14 AM
"Everywhere, men lead lives of quiet desperation" is from Thoreau. Alhough Thurber said some other fun things, such as, "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers". Apropos as well, I think.
Posted by: Geoffrey Alexander | January 30, 2008 9:15 AM
From that article, maxi, maybe the people complaining about free expression should have noted that the university did not ban the pope, and did not cancel the visit. The pope cancelled the visit. If they should be complaining to anyone, they should be complaining to the damned pope.
Posted by: Armchair Dissident | January 30, 2008 9:17 AM
I think that we should be concerned about the comments of this pope, because it takes away some of the support for evolution that Xians need to accept it. This could result in less support on school boards for teaching evolution by natural selection, not just in the Catholic schools, but in all the others too.
Religion is such utter stupidity. I despair of how so many people, even intelligent people, can suspend rational judgement so easily to indulge in wishful thinking. Fuck the pope.
Posted by: Richard Harris | January 30, 2008 9:19 AM
Does the Pope truly think that he is an arbiter of goodness?
Ha. Ha. Ha.
Good people don't spend their lives conning the entire world with a bunch of lies.
Good people don't discriminate against women and gays.
Good people don't wear pointy hats and robes and carry big staffs in an effort to demonstrate that they are exalted and important.
Good people don't found their ethics upon a bullshit fairy tale.
Good people don't make up crap about limbo and actively con children into believing that crap.
Good people don't deliberately try to turn people away from science - perhaps the best foothold we have on reality.
Fuck the Pope. Forever.
Posted by: CalGeorge | January 30, 2008 9:20 AM
(Apologies in advance if I've rehashed old topics)
I'm disappointed, especially after the Pope affirmed that evolution can coexist with faith (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19956961/). In modern times, the Roman Catholic Church has basically taken Stephen Jay Gould's nonoverlapping magisteria view. With the exception of a reactionary minority, YECs aren't Catholic; Biblical literalist fundamentalists, especially the theocratic Religious Right, are the problem.
Religions that indoctrinate against evolution frame the problem as a "Christianity vs. Atheism" struggle for survival; I would argue that support of evolution by religious leaders is a boon to all scientists, atheists and people of faith alike. I would love to see more support for the Clergy Letter Project (http://www.butler.edu/clergyproject) and more public pronouncements like this one, from the United Church of Christ: http://www.ucc.org/not-mutually-exclusive/ I'm sure I'd get a smackdown from Christopher Hitchens, but that's my take on it.
Posted by: James | January 30, 2008 9:21 AM
You know, this Pope is so deluded that he would probably find the idea that his sole purpose in life is to keep Diego's girlfriend entertained demeaning…when it is actually a grand and noble goal, and he should be gratified that he actually has such a lofty purpose. It sure beats the job he thinks he's got now.
Posted by: PZ Myers | January 30, 2008 9:22 AM
Hooray for a Globe and Mail link!
Personally, I'm rather confused by the exhortation to study more anthropology. As my anthro grad student friends tell me, it is a legitimate science...yet so many people consign it to this weird limbo between psychology and sociology.
So...the pope is saying we should divert attention away from science to... science?
Is it wrong of me to think there's potential there? If the pope is admitting that theology won't tell us everything about people and we need to study them using scientific methods... that can't be all bad?
Posted by: katie | January 30, 2008 9:26 AM
I just wish this pope still wasn't so influential in many other countries. In Spain right now, the convervative clergy has been emboldened to take a very heavy-handed role in the upcoming elections. It remains to be seen whether this will mobilize enough anti-clerical sentiment to return the socialists to power, or whether it will tip the scales in the direction of the ever more hard-line Partido Popular in the March elections. The pope has targeted Spain as a battle-ground against "secularism."
Posted by: Joanna | January 30, 2008 9:29 AM
Armchair Dissident:
I completely agree. The students and staff were exercising their right to free speech by protesting. The pope could have easily gone along with his original plans but chose not to. Since when is this an example of censorship???
Now the Italian parliament is getting its knickers in a twist and 200,000 people show up for Sunday Mass.
-sigh-
Posted by: maxi | January 30, 2008 9:32 AM
Here in Cincinnati there was an article in the local paper about the Cincy archbishop denouncing the 'Bodies' Exhibit currently in the CMC. All the comments in the online section seemed to be from us excatholics questioning the moral authority of a pedophile abettor.
Posted by: Zensunni | January 30, 2008 9:32 AM
Amen.
...I mean, uh, er, ummm...
...right on!
Posted by: Milo Johnson | January 30, 2008 9:34 AM
Let's face it: the Catholic Church took a big PR hit when the moved from "guy who fought Communism and won" to "member of the Hitler Youth". Ratzinger has very little broad appeal or charisma. This is not the Catholic Church of days past. Church attendance is miniscule in Europe and overrated in North America, where the Catholic Church still carries the stain of the unaddressed sex scandals.
Posted by: RickD | January 30, 2008 9:46 AM
An asshole.
With a bunch of asshole followers.
Am I talking about the Pope?
Or PZ?
Posted by: nobody | January 30, 2008 9:47 AM
We don't give a crap what the head moron says about
anything, let alone his rantings on our Science,which he
has the freaking nerve to defile with his wreaking breath.
Shame on the Paris Academy of Sciences for even appearing
with that pontifical academy of sciences. What a dumb
oxymoron, analagous to creation science. To watch the
insane rabble in Rome grovel in the prescence of this
insane fraud is the epitomy human degradation. Good grief,
will we ever be rid of this insanity?
Posted by: holbach | January 30, 2008 9:49 AM
That Pope's a hell of a head-scratcher. I wonder how much more outrageous his statements will be once he realizes just how irrelevant he truly is.
The fact that the Pope was not wanted at a school in Italy is a pretty big step for humanity, and maybe it's a great sign that we are finally stepping out from beneath the crushing burden of mythology.
I think it'll be fun to watch the Catholic Church reduce itself to smoldering embers in a blaze of scandal and ignorance. Then again, it may turn into the theological equivalent of Mike Tyson trying to win a fight by gnawing on the ears of his fellow human being as a result of being overwhelmed with desperation to remain relevant.
Posted by: Dan | January 30, 2008 9:53 AM
Let's not forget that this pope has allowed Archbishop Chimoio, the one who said that Europeans manufacture HIV virus and put it in condoms and retroviral drugs for Africans, keep his post, but has thrown away a gay priest: http://globallyconnected.blogspot.com/2007/10/vatican-keep-good-work-guys.html
#16: Socialists are in power in Spain now. They approved same sex marriage among other things. The Popular Party (Right wing) promises to set a "Ministry fro Family" if they win.
Posted by: Guido | January 30, 2008 9:56 AM
pope: "research into anthropology, philosophy and theology"
pz: "Leave theology off the list..."
me: How about a little psychology?
Posted by: manni | January 30, 2008 10:02 AM
"Scientific investigation should be accompanied by 'research into anthropology, philosophy and theology' to give insight into 'man's own mystery, because no science can say who man is, where he comes from or where he is going', the Pope said."
Well, scientific investigation does include anthropology. Universities do offer philosophy. As for theology, finding Theo so we can study him has slowed progress considerably.
As for "man's own mystery", anthropology and biology tell me where we came from, and GPS tells me where I'm going, so I think science has already covered popey's concerns.
Posted by: Enkidu | January 30, 2008 10:05 AM
Fuck all the people who respectfully report on whatever the Pope does.
Pope enablers can go fuck themselves.
Posted by: CalGeorge | January 30, 2008 10:05 AM
Like Katie (#15) I was puzzled by the inclusion of anthropology as a subject the Pope deems worthy of study. True, a large part of anthropology has always been devoted to the dispassionate description of religious belief and practice, but this has primarily been in marginalized or small-scale societies, and demystifying voodoo - for example - hardly sounds like the kind of endeavor that would endear itself to our current Pope. And there's also anthropology's long-standing wariness, if not downright hostility, towards missionaries. To top it off, even the most humanities-inclined anthropologists dissect religion in ways that aren't exactly designed to magnify faith; as a quote in one of my old undergraduate final exams put it (it was a sociology exam, but the point holds for anthropology as well): "if you don't wish to take religion seriously, study it sociologically." (I'd be grateful to know whose quote this is; I've often wondered....)
Posted by: Clare | January 30, 2008 10:06 AM
#21-
Ooh! I know! It's a trick question: the pope is an appointed 'leader' while PZ is simply an interested party engaging other interested parties. Only leaders have followers. You seem to have a cogent understanding of the 'asshole' part though, 'nobody'.
Posted by: tyaddow | January 30, 2008 10:08 AM
Isn't it ironic and so blatantly realistic that if this
current head moron is shot, they will rush him to a
hospital where all of science will be used to save his life. How about if there was a closer "hospital" where just
prayers were used to save his life and absolutely none of
the powers of science, and they plopped him on a pallet
and just prayed over the moron to prove the efficacy of
insane rantings. Would he be taken there? Would he agree
to be taken there and thereby prove to his deranged masses
that he believes in the mumbo-jumbo idiocy? You can bet
that he would not. To test his insane faith is one thing,
to lose his life insanely is another. What a phony fraud
and gutless shit mongerer!
Posted by: holbach | January 30, 2008 10:10 AM
Perhaps this Pope's backwardness will bring more cognative dissonance to the fore of his followers. Maybe his legacy will be to create more Ex-Catholics; yet frustratingly, there will always be sheeple who blindly follow no matter how ridiculous the views of the Pope are - ANY Pope, or any Evangelical minister for the Fundy Protestant set. (sigh)
As my dear old mum used to say,"You can lead a whore to culture - but you can't make her think..."
Posted by: Jsn | January 30, 2008 10:15 AM
The Pope is infallible because he was chosen by the cardinals, who themselves are infallible, right? And the cardinals are chosen by an infallible Pope.
Posted by: Rick | January 30, 2008 10:15 AM
I wonder sometimes if one of the cultural gaps between the devoutly religious folks (especially those who've never stepped out of the orthodox*) and the not is that some devoutly religious expect one philosophy & cosmology package to solve anything, and think everyone else thinks that as well. So, when they hear people using science as part of their view of 'how the world works', they assume that science is all there is for these people -- which isn't true, given that I've met humanists, selfish *explicative of choice*s, theists and non-theists, and shade of in-between, all of whom take a mostly scientific view of the universe. Because science doesn't do much for morals -- it wasn't designed to. It focuses much more on what is true and observable than what is right. It's like complaining that my laptop is a wonderful computer, but cannot cook my microwave pizza very well. (The same thing could be said for atheism -- the part about morals, though it likewise cannot give me hot pizza, unless Richard Dawkins is opening a delivery service that I haven't found out about. A lot of the religious folks PZ rants about seem to conflate 'atheism has no set morals' with 'atheists have no set morals'.)
* Most of the unorthodox religious people at least have a better chance of exposure to the idea that how they view the world isn't how everyone does.
Posted by: Rebecca H. | January 30, 2008 10:16 AM
Really odd that he would promote anthropology class along with theology. I remember my anthro classes to be both pretty heavy on the evolutionary theory. (we even played with skull casts of fossil hominids). That would seem counter-productive to his stated goals.
Posted by: Michael Barrett | January 30, 2008 10:17 AM
@Archaeopteryx,
"First Annual Metaphor of the Year Award" -- will that be presented in the same ceremony as the "Annual Tautology of the Year Award for Needlessly Saying the Same Thing Multiple Times in the Same Sentence Award" ?
Anyway, he's the Pope. He's got to talk bollocks. That's his job. If the Pope started talking sense, the Roman Catholics might stop complaining about him and go off and fight the proddies or something!
Posted by: AJS | January 30, 2008 10:19 AM
"Isn't it ironic and so blatantly realistic that if this
current head moron is shot, they will rush him to a
hospital where all of science will be used to save his life. How about if there was a closer "hospital" where just
prayers were used to save his life and absolutely none of
the powers of science, and they plopped him on a pallet
and just prayed over the moron to prove the efficacy of
insane rantings. Would he be taken there?"
Holbach, we've already seen the result of this experiment. Mother Teresa was never called to assist an ailing church leader, nor anyone of any religion who could afford modern medical care. They left the pain, the pallets and the prayers for the poor.
Posted by: Enkidu | January 30, 2008 10:31 AM
I'm sure there are more than a few altar boys out there that learned "goodness" on the knee of their local catholic priest. Maybe the pope-monster would care to address that rather than sweeping it under the rug and lecturing the world on his fucking distorted views about what is good.
Posted by: Larry | January 30, 2008 10:36 AM
It's sad that this man of great authority,
Is such a stranger to the laboratory,
His whole purpose in the religious order,
To hide his head and preach us ordure.
But a question I think we all must ask,
to take this branch of lunacy to task,
Is a Catholic still relevant to Mankind's position?
"Oh No! I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!"
(with grovelling apologies to Cuttlefish, whose poetry boots I am not fit to clean...)
Posted by: Monkey's Uncle | January 30, 2008 10:36 AM
Pope, how many pills do you take that are the work of science?
Thought the bible said that to be healed you just had to pray.
Posted by: Michelle | January 30, 2008 10:38 AM
The problem is that this man who makes this "babble" is actually very powerful in economic terms. He is basically holding Italy's politicians by their..ahem, genitals - if you allow me to use such terminology.
I wish people who are decision-makers actually had the guts (guts, not balls, because there are quite a few confounded women on this old bats' side too!) to stand up to him. What happened to the "free Church in a free State" agreement between the Italian Republic and the Catholic Church?
If ever there were a God, he should have saved us from this Church a long time ago. Forgive my anger.
Posted by: steppen wolf | January 30, 2008 10:40 AM
@AJS
"First Annual Metaphor of the Year Award" -- will that be presented in the same ceremony as the "Annual Tautology of the Year Award for Needlessly Saying the Same Thing Multiple Times in the Same Sentence Award" ?
Hey, that sounds like a truly fantastic and great award :D
Posted by: DrFrank | January 30, 2008 10:42 AM
Geoffrey Alexander: Thoreau did say the bit about leading lives of quiet desperation, but what maria was quoting was Thurber's revision that people now lead lives of noisy desperation. Not to go off-topic or anything.
Posted by: Rob Vary | January 30, 2008 10:47 AM
Yo vi la papa.
Posted by: Chupacabras | January 30, 2008 10:48 AM
Daldianus @ #1:
What credentials does this man have to judge these things except for claiming to speak with his invisible friend?
Well, he also has to be totally out of touch with most of the 19th and a bit of the 18th centuries. The 20th and 21st centuries are just a dream...
Posted by: Mena | January 30, 2008 10:50 AM
Michael Barrett (#34): the catholic church has accepted the theory of evolution a long time ago.
Anyway, I only wish that the pope were as irrelevant as some of you guys seem to think he is. I mean, I don't care what he says or thinks per se, but I am concerned with the impact his words have in so called catholic countries.
Just a few days ago, the pope has proclaimed that Slovenia is violating *basic human rights* by being the only country "in this part of Europe" that doesn't allow religion to be taught in schools. Where is Amnesty International when pope needs it?
Posted by: Tea | January 30, 2008 10:53 AM
Well, in my life, his authority is nonexistent. He really adds nothing meaningful, especially with comments like these.
What probably should concern the Pope more, though, is that there are fewer and fewer Catholics, and it seems like a smaller percentage of those who remain are agreeing with him. It's getting to be a less relevant religion, and the leader is less relevant within the less-relevant religion.
I call that progress. In that regard, I hope we in America are able to follow Europe's footsteps. More and more churches are empty there.
I call this an age of enlightenment. I hope it picks up steam, and more and more of us are able to consider things like ID to be the background noise an ever-decreasing group of lunatics.
Religious leaders are simply not relevant in my life; nor are myths about god, or gods, or virgin births, or resurrections.
By the way, the fact that science makes no predictions about where our species is going makes it MORE credible, not less. I'd hate to see us coming off like a bunch of Pat Robertsons.
Posted by: MikeM | January 30, 2008 11:00 AM
Yet he wants to pontificate on sexual behavior. What a wanker.
But, uh oh, another biological gap! What say the creationists?
Posted by: Torbjörn Larsson, OM | January 30, 2008 11:06 AM
Tea:
Not Pope Benny. There's strong suggestions that the Pope is an ID-iot. When he sacked his astronomer a year or so ago, there was credible suggestions that it was because the astronomer was a supporter of evolution. When the pope's endorsed evolution, it's always been with the caveat that god must be included.
Posted by: Armchair Dissident | January 30, 2008 11:12 AM
#43: You just said: [i]I saw the potato[/i]. "el papa" it's the pope, "la papa" it's the potato.
Posted by: Guido | January 30, 2008 11:16 AM
Torbjörn Larsson:
No, I'm fairly sure he's not allowed to do that, either. ;-)
Posted by: Armchair Dissident | January 30, 2008 11:17 AM
Vaguely topical humor:
http://www.macguff.fr/goomi/unspeakable/vault14.html
Posted by: Rich | January 30, 2008 11:24 AM
#21. Kids, this is what happens when you fill your rhetorical toolbox with silly putty.
Posted by: dead santa | January 30, 2008 11:30 AM
What a wanker.
The Pope woke up early one morning with a huge erection. Thinking that it wasn't very Catholic, he tried to get rid of it. Unfortunately, walking around the room, thinking about the Bible and even getting some fresh air on the balcony all failed to soften him up. With only one option left, he sat down on the balcony and did what needed to be done.
Later, he was walking around Rome when a man with a camera approached him. "Hello, Mr Pope," the man said. "Six o'clock this morning, on the balcony, I think you know what I'm talking about."
"I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean," the Pope replied.
"Oh, I think you do," the man retorted, "and 50 thousand will buy you the camera."
Worried and confused, the Pope paid up and took the camera.
Back in the Vatican, one of the Pope's aides asked about the camera. "A chap in town sold it to me for 50 thousand," the Pope explained.
"50 thousand?!" exclaimed the aide. "Wow, he must have seen you coming."
Posted by: Richard Harris | January 30, 2008 11:31 AM
The sheeple speak:
I love what Our Papa has to say! Science needs philosophy & theology. Often, out of hatred for religion, science has overstepped it's bounds & actually become religion. Example: It takes more blind faith to believe in evolution than most doctrines of our Faith. Many follow recomendations of scientists & Drs with a surity I wish more Catholics would have in the Church teaching. Then in a few years the scientists say "woops we were wrong". On Faith&morals the Church never says such because...VOX CHRISTI!
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=56245
Dumb. Shit.
Posted by: CalGeorge | January 30, 2008 11:36 AM
I think it's very open-minded of the Catholic Chirch to have selected a former Nazi (and serving member of the Wehrmacht, I believe). What next - a penitent member of the Khmer Rouge? Backsliders from the Stasi? Mike Huckabee?
Posted by: Bill M. | January 30, 2008 11:50 AM
(slightly OT) Hey, Torbjörn, I'm reading Ingemar Hedenius on religion now, as per your recommendation. Proving once again that 'New Atheism' is not new. At some points he makes the God Delusion look like Sunday school reading material...
Posted by: windy | January 30, 2008 12:03 PM
Guido@#49: you say pope, I say potato. Let's call the whole thing off.
Posted by: Moggie | January 30, 2008 12:08 PM
I think it's very appropriate that when the current pope makes a written declaration of doctrine, it's called a Papal BULL...
Posted by: Sergeant Zim | January 30, 2008 12:11 PM
"Personally, I've long found the petty deified tyrant of the Christian religion to be an unsatisfyingly trivial explanation"
But PZ! God is so BIG! SO ENORMOUSLY HUGE! Aren't you impressed?
I've always thought that it would be pretty easy to design some sort of web-crawler that would archive stupid things said by Count Popula and then make an automatic blog post about it every month or so. Might free up PZ's time a little bit. Then maybe alter it slightly for Mike Huckabee and have that one post about every week.
Posted by: Rey Fox | January 30, 2008 12:17 PM
The Globe & Mail article closes with: "The Vatican said the protesters misunderstood that speech, made about 17 years ago when he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger."
So the Vatican is borrowing a tactic from the Dishonesty Institute: "You always distort what we say!"
As to the Italians, Italy is one of the least religious countires in Europe---yet that have a sort of home-team loyalty when outsiders attack the Vatican. Strange.
Posted by: Olorin | January 30, 2008 12:17 PM
I'll give Nazinger credit for one thing: he was smart enough to avoid Boston on the upcoming trip to the States. I guess the thought of being confronted by people who were raped by Priests who were protected by his criminal racket. Bernard Law should be in prison, not a cushy job in Rome.
Posted by: MAJeff | January 30, 2008 12:20 PM
I have to say I totally love this Pope; Ratzy is doing more to destroy his religion than any of us could possibly hope or dream that we might be able to do ourselves. I say continue to let him dig his own grave ... rant away Ratzy!
It's interesting, but I became an atheist thanks to studying the physical sciences back in high school, going all the way through to a college degree in such, which only made me even more solidly atheist. But what really made me not just atheist, but anti-religion, was when I went on and studied Sociology (which I am now finishing my PhD in).
If there is anything that will turn you off religion, it's studying how it actually operates and functions, which Sociology solidly does (and hence, Anthropology, which really isn't that far removed from Sociology these days, both solid sciences) ... hence, I don't think the Pope really thought through too much what he was saying in this latest screed, as what he is advocating is more likely to wake people up to how truly awful organised religion is.
Posted by: Sarah in Chicago | January 30, 2008 12:38 PM
Well, speaking from personal experience (and yes, I know, plural anecdotes don't make data), growing up as a Catholic in Pennsylvania and Maryland, the people in my churches didn't really consider the Pope infallible - he was just the leader of the Church elected by a bunch of cardinals. However, down here in Texas where I've gotten to know quite a few Mexican immigrants, they do seem to put a lot more stock in what the Pope says. I even remember having a conversation the other day where that was the exact topic, and about a quarter of the people there did believe in the Pope's infallibility.
Posted by: Fatboy | January 30, 2008 12:44 PM
The Pope oughta be more careful. Anthropology was the death blow for the last vestiges of my religiosity.
Nothing like studying the bizarre beliefs of people around the world to make one wonder whether their own are equally bizarre.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 30, 2008 12:48 PM
Uh, I meant What Sarah in Chicago said.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 30, 2008 12:49 PM
I'm still stuck on the "Pontifical Academy of Sciences" bit. It actually exists! I'd never heard of it, and thought the reporter had snuck in a little joke.
The Pontiff pontificated at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.
Posted by: BadAunt | January 30, 2008 1:02 PM
"...because no science can say who man is..."
"Man is not..."
Via negativa will get you nowhere.
Posted by: Bob | January 30, 2008 1:03 PM
Nothing like studying the bizarre beliefs of people around the world to make one wonder whether their own are equally bizarre.
Yup. I use the book "The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down" in my Race and Ethnicity classes. When students start to think that the presences of dabs that steal your soul and make you sick is irrational, I point to transubstantiation. It's social distance, not content, that makes it weird.
Posted by: MAJeff | January 30, 2008 1:20 PM
This may be the understatement of our young century (or at least in the running): "The conservative German-born Pope's public stand on issues such as abortion and embryonic stem-cell research has led critics to accuse him of holding antiquated views on science."
Posted by: Bradley Bolin | January 30, 2008 1:27 PM
It's just weird we all tend to agree to call this one old man, Joseph Ratzinger, "The Pope".
Just think about that sound, that word, and we are all just calling him The Pope. Repeat it enough and it becomes bizarre sounding. Pope. Pope. Pope. Huh?
Pope. The Pope. The Pope. "Look, everyone, it's The Pope."
"I'm Tom Brokaw. Today in Rome, THE POPE issued one of his papal bulls from the Office of the Holy See...what? waitaminute, Joanne, what is this crap? Get me a scotch."
Posted by: cm | January 30, 2008 1:29 PM
FYI -- I just came from Suburban Station in Philadelphia, and the homeless guy is currently talking about how delicious soft pretzels are. Which is much more helpful than anything Papa Ratzi has to say.
Posted by: Midwestern Gent | January 30, 2008 1:32 PM
Seriously read this below. How messed up does a human being have to be to believe something like this? The reformation happened for a reason and was primarily a rational reformation. The RCC and it's stalwart followers are as out to lunch as the scientologists.
Posted by: Uber | January 30, 2008 1:45 PM
What do you have against Philadelphia?
Posted by: Steven E. Schonfeld | January 30, 2008 2:01 PM
So Ratzi's a potato, much like JFK was a jellyroll.
Ha!
Philadelphia has a subway?
huh.
Sociology is a "solid science"?
huh. Or ha.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | January 30, 2008 2:06 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing that science is a criterion for "goodness".
I think there are some Evo-psych people who are bordering on that with their attempts to naturalize ethics.
Posted by: coathangrrr | January 30, 2008 2:10 PM
"The reformation happened for a reason and was primarily a rational reformation."
Martin Luther was at least as loopy as Ratzinger or any of his other contemporaries. The man called reason the Devil's bride.
They're all completely cracked.
Posted by: Samnell | January 30, 2008 2:12 PM
That may be true in part but the reformation moved Christianity away from woo-woo to just woo. It was a rational response.
Posted by: Ube | January 30, 2008 2:20 PM
"That may be true in part but the reformation moved Christianity away from woo-woo to just woo. It was a rational response."
Huh? Huckabee, the Mormons, Jim Jones, are only "woo" to the Catholic Church's "woo-woo"?
Face it: When your world view begins with evil magic talking walking snakes feeding magic fruit to the mother of us all (who was created from the rib of the father of us all), you've left any claim to rationality far behind.
Posted by: Enkidu | January 30, 2008 2:32 PM
What do you have against Philadelphia?
It was a crappy movie.
Posted by: MAJeff | January 30, 2008 2:39 PM
PZ knows Philly--as I recall he used to teach at Temple. It's an informed opinion. Like WC Fields's.
MAJeff, you're not biting at my sociologist-bait? I'm disappointed.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | January 30, 2008 2:44 PM
Yes. That would be correct.
I wouldn't argue otherwise but it doesn't change the fact that the reformation itself was rational in it's principles as opposed to catholism.
Posted by: Uber | January 30, 2008 2:48 PM
I have nothing against Philadelphia. I am just familiar with the homeless hordes that are disgracefully displaced to living minute-by-minute in subway stations.
Posted by: PZ Myers | January 30, 2008 2:49 PM
MAJeff, you're not biting at my sociologist-bait? I'm disappointed.
Don't be. Just not feeling like it. Too busy playing with my new TV (Thanks, dead grandma!) and doing laundry.
Posted by: MAJeff | January 30, 2008 2:53 PM
#30:
"I love the Pope, I love seeing him in his Pope-Mobile, his three feet of bullet proof plexi-glass. That's faith in action folks! You know he's got God on his side."
-Bill Hicks
#40
That would require the Italian government to actually, y'know, function.
Posted by: False Prophet | January 30, 2008 3:35 PM