…and this is a 
Heath Ledger dead, and why it matters
Category: Godlessness • Religion
Posted on: January 24, 2008 9:35 AM, by PZ Myers
So Heath Ledger, the young actor, is dead of unknown causes. I don't know much about him, I did not have any kind of personal interaction with him so I don't need to know much about him — I liked some of his movies, he was young, it's tragic to see a life ended so early.
Those demented ghouls at Westboro Baptist Church have a different point of view, though.
It's just a lunatic ranting his hate, but that last paragraph is fascinating.
Heath Ledger is now in Hell, and has begun serving his eternal sentence there — beside which, nothing else about Heath Ledger is relevant or consequential.
That epitomizes the problem, I think. There is a kind of sliding scale of belief: most of us value our lives to some degree, and consider how we spend our three score and ten to be important; then there are people who attach some degree of importance on an afterlife they've imagined, and consider this hypothetical eternity to be a matter of concern. Atheists have the scale pegged way over to the left and see this little slice of time we have as all we have, and therefore the only thing we have to make work. Most religious people have the dial turned up a little to the right — they are clearly operationally secular, spending most of their time on work and family, and socking away a little Sunday prayer time for an anticipated and wholly delusional Heaven. We can all live with that.
But then there are these wackos like Fred Phelps who have the dial turned so far to the right that they place a higher priority in their fantasies about what they'll be doing after they're dead over what they're doing with their life right now. That's where religion becomes a great evil, where it destroys lives and compels people to commit acts that are materially insane, but make great logical sense to people infected with the idea that there is an eternity of consequence for trivial transgressions against a shared belief.
This is why we have to strike right at the root of religious belief. It's an unfounded expectation of a magic post-mortem resuscitation in a new universe with different rules that has the potential to completely change the equation about how we live our lives in this brief span — and not for the better, as proponents pretend — and to those of us who care about our lives, our world, and our legacy rather than our imagined ghost-existence, that matters.
P.S. Note the inconsistency in Phelps' position, too. If what Heath Ledger did in his life is such a tiny, irrelevant fragment of god's great plan for his existence, why is his role in a movie Fred Phelps didn't like so important that it dictates an eternity of pain?
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Comments
Of course, the late Heath Ledger wasn't a homosexual, he simply played a homosexual character in a movie. But that's enough, I guess. So far, I haven't found the Biblical verse that condemns playing a character in a movie.
Posted by: Dave | January 24, 2008 9:43 AM
Hah! I just e-mailed a link to PZ because I couldn't find a thread to attach it to... then the very next time I check here, here it is. I suppose I should've had more patience!
Posted by: Bill Dauphin | January 24, 2008 9:48 AM
"Thou shalt not portray herders of sheep that lay with each other, nor wayfinders of gold, for such is an abomination in the sight of the Lord's most righteous followers, who are only pleased by the warrior of roads showing torture and degradation of His Most Holy Son." Medved 12: 36-38
Posted by: Tulse | January 24, 2008 9:54 AM
Remind me to show up at Phelp's funeral to protest his reprehensible, vile life.
Sickening.
Posted by: CalGeorge | January 24, 2008 9:56 AM
He's just further ensuring that I will be there at Mr. Phelps funeral to defecate on his tombstone.
Posted by: zer0 | January 24, 2008 9:56 AM
If the fate of one's eternal soul depends on which characters one has played in movies, what'll happen when Anthony Hopkins dies? He's been St Paul, CS Lewis, Adolf Hitler and Hannibal Lecter.
Posted by: MissPrism | January 24, 2008 10:01 AM
I understand that his body is being sent to Australia for burial. Will the whole church go? Can they be persuaded to stay? What a vile group.
Posted by: longsmith | January 24, 2008 10:05 AM
Gawd. Sounds like hate speech to me, the irony of which brings a smile and a tear. Let us not waste time thinking of how many times our precious saviour spoke of love and kept company with whores and sinners. Let's just drag out some good ol' fashion' Leviticus-style hate! The hypocrisy is like a ton of bricks.
What's worse, these things inspire such a deep anger and hatred in *me*. I can't stand the injustice of these people being protected by free speech and assembly laws to demonstrate unambiguous bigotry and hatred in the faces of the mourning. Love your neighbor as yourself, unless your neighbor is not like you. Wait, is that how it goes?
Posted by: tyaddow | January 24, 2008 10:05 AM
I just find this completely sickening. This makes even less sense to me than when they picket the funerals of service men and women because the army allows homosexuals in its ranks.
I also think that it is worth noting that the bible doesn't say anything about women lying with other women. But then I guess that is because God is a guy and like most of us hot blooded men has no problems with lesbians.
Posted by: rabbitpirate | January 24, 2008 10:07 AM
Mr. Phelps may win yet another moron of the month award.
Posted by: danley | January 24, 2008 10:10 AM
Where will this funeral be?
Ledger died in New York, he worked in Hollywood, California, but he's from Australia.
If it's California, I suspect the governor, who is also a member of the film community, might have something to say about the presence of the Phelps clan.
Last time I saw pics of Fred Phelps and that daughter of his ... Whew! Hate leaves its mark. In every sense of the word, these are some seriously ugly people.
...
This is kinda weird: Streaming video from outside the funeral chapel in New York where Heath Ledger's body is supposedly located. The story says a viewing will take place sometime today. People are setting up cameras and there's a line gathering.
http://www.tmz.com/2008/01/24/tmz-is-live-at-frank-e-campbell-funeral-chapel/
Posted by: Hank Fox | January 24, 2008 10:12 AM
I'll go way out on a limb with this one.
People who can't tell the difference between real life and stories in an ancient book also can't tell the difference between real life and a recent film.
Posted by: Mike O'Risal | January 24, 2008 10:18 AM
Seriously though let us not forget that although Phelps is a nutjob it is the belief system that allows people
1. the concept of a place of eternal torture
2. the twisted mindset to think this is justice
3. the acceptance of a blantantly immoral concept
It is a demeaning and reprehensible belief that makes people not love God but rather be afraid not to love him.
Posted by: Uber | January 24, 2008 10:18 AM
Ahhh...just showing those Christian "virtues" of love and forgiveness again.
And what about this a-hole?
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/01/23/gibson-mocks-ledger/
I think it's time to protest the sponsors of that show.
Posted by: YSTH | January 24, 2008 10:19 AM
PZ, you're right. It is the premise of 'pie in the sky somewhere' that is used to 'justify' all sorts of injustice and viciousness in this vale of tears.
But I don't really believe that's what motivates the leadership that makes these sorts of arguments. They aren't looking to heaven when they push their personal hells on the rest of us. Rather, they are looking to reign in their personal hell right now, rather than to serve in heaven. It's about power, whether we're talking about a patriarchy that wants to keep women subservient, or a pathological case like Phelps, who lives to bully those around him into lockstep agreement, or else.
Posted by: Scott Hatfield, OM | January 24, 2008 10:21 AM
Heath Ledger wasn't even gay as far as I can tell. He is divorced with a kid among other things. I doubt whoever played Luke Skywalker in Star Wars was really a Jedi either. And whoever plays Henry VIII in Shakespeare isn't really the king of England either. Fictional movies are well, fictional. OTOH, no one expects thought from Westboro Baptists.
Heath probably died of an accidental drug overdose of prescription sleeping pills. He was known to have severe insomnia and to be taking sedatives.
Westboro Baptist is officially broke. While they rarely violate criminal laws, their activities can fall under civil torts, such as torture, mental cruelty, harrassment, slander, libel, and so on. IIRC, someone sued them for disrupting a funeral and had a multimillion dollar judgement against them. As usual collecting is another matter. But you can be sure there are liens against any tangible property Westboro and Phelps owns.
Posted by: raven | January 24, 2008 10:22 AM
Well, now that this is out of the way, maybe Fred and his inbreds can get back to hating our men and women in uniform.
Posted by: firemancarl | January 24, 2008 10:22 AM
Phelps obviously doesn't realise this, but Ledger didn't really stick his lad into Jake Gyllenhaal. But you'd think that God, being omniscient and all, would have known this and let Ledger stay out of hell.
Posted by: Mrs Tilton | January 24, 2008 10:23 AM
Oh, these morons! Why can't anybody do something against them??
Posted by: Markus | January 24, 2008 10:24 AM
Where is Heath Ledger's funeral people have asked?
It will be held in Perth, Western Australia, a city I had the priveledge to live for a while. Perth is the most isolated (state) capital city in the world (and a wonderfull place I might add).
I really can't see Fredo going through with his promise, unless he's got some Aussie goons we don't know about. However, if gets the gall to fly halfway around the world to behave like an idiot, I swear I'll do my own Freedom Gaurd imitation and block him from getting within 50km of the casket.
Posted by: ChrisC | January 24, 2008 10:25 AM
But let's not forget: While it's big news when these yokels show up to protest, they rarely do! When Interstate 35W fell in Minnesota, they got a lot of ink for calling Minnesota the "land of Sodom" and announcing they'd be picketing funerals of the victims. They never bothered to show up. Seems like they just leverage big news for their own perverse gain.
Posted by: Paul | January 24, 2008 10:25 AM
I had the, er, experience of interviewing Phelps when he came to FW to protest a production of the Laramie Project. Let me tell you, he is creeeepy. Very tall and thin, and although his eyes don't glow red, they are small, beady and intense. It almost looks like they do.
His daughter is the WBC lawyer, and she's a treat to talk too, let me tell you...
Posted by: Andy | January 24, 2008 10:27 AM
@Markus (#19):
Because they are free to be utter, dreadful, hideous morons and hate-mongers.
All the Phelps-oids offend me deeply. Fortunately for both them and me (and quite unlike a seemingly rather large contingent of Muslims all over the world) offense is not sufficient to silence.
Let them continue to demonstrate so clearly what it is to be so deeply religious. But also let's don't let anyone get away with the "true Scotsman" argument to distance themselves from the Phelps clan. It's the same bible after all.
Who wants to wager that when the elder Phelps does finally peg out his funeral will be held in secret well away from public property that the throngs of folks we all know are saving up for the trip out to protest the little fecker's funeral won't have the opportunity.
Bullies of all strips are the "dish it out but can't take it" types.
Posted by: GodlessHeathen | January 24, 2008 10:33 AM
If Heath is going to be buried in Australia, and these guys have the follow-through they say they do, it would be wonderful if Australia had some convenient anti hate speech laws they could be arrested under.
Seriously, Australia, take one for the team and lock the mouth-breathing scum away.
Posted by: G | January 24, 2008 10:38 AM
My only hope is that when they do come out to picket Batman will swoop down out of nowhere and rock some fundie ass.
Posted by: Chad Estep | January 24, 2008 10:39 AM
Posted by: SeanH | January 24, 2008 10:39 AM
rabbit @9,
they picket the funerals of service men and women because the army allows homosexuals in its ranks
It doesn't, actually, if it's the US army you're talking about.
Not knowingly, anyway. As I understand the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, you can be gay and a soldier so long as you refrain from all gay sex and are absolutely, 100% closeted. If for any reason they learn that you're gay, out you go. DADT was a "liberalisation" only in the sense that the military no longer actively tries to discover which of its personnel are gay, the better to eject them. (Officially, that is; I've read that some commanders still try to ferret out gays who are in compliance with DADT. OTOH, I've also read that some others will tacitly tolerate soldiers they know to be gay because they don't want to lose a valued troop.)
I don't think Phelps disrupts soldiers' funerals to protest DADT. At least, that would be only one very small point in his overall complaint. SFAIK he disparages dead soldiers because he thinks their deaths in Iraq are divine punishment of the entire American nation for not hating fags sufficiently.
BTW, most armies I know of don't think homosexuality makes one ineligible to serve. But the US military shouldn't feel too bad. I'm sure its policy is at least as enlightened as that of, say, the army of Mugabe's Zimbabwe.
Posted by: Mrs Tilton | January 24, 2008 10:43 AM
"Ledger wasn't even gay" comments miss the point. To Phelps' twisted mind, it makes no difference whether a gay is real or fictional. Any sympathetic portrayal of a gay man is grounds for enternal damnation.
OTOH, perhaps I give Phelps too much credit, with a mind that hateful he probably can't tell the difference between fiction and reality.
Posted by: SteveM | January 24, 2008 10:50 AM
Phelps' death is the only reason that I wish Hell were real. The look on old Phred's face when he realizes where he would get to spend eternity after death would be priceless.
Posted by: T. Bruce McNeely | January 24, 2008 10:50 AM
SeanH wrote (#26):
But you forget the point: Heath Ledger isn't gay, he only played gay in a movie. Apparently Phelps cannot tell fact from fiction!
- pwe
Posted by: pwe | January 24, 2008 10:50 AM
I don't think there should be protests when Phelps finally kicks the bucket...
I think there should be a massive party in his hometown... preferrably with as many gay/bi/trannys as possible. Rather than a moment of silence, there should be a massive kiss-in followed by 6 hours of non-stop thumping dance music.
Posted by: Steve_C | January 24, 2008 10:50 AM
How long do you think it will be before Phelps comes out of the closet? We've been waiting.
Posted by: Skwee | January 24, 2008 10:57 AM
Steve_C @ #31
Someone should re-route the San Francisco pride parade through Kansas that year...
Posted by: G | January 24, 2008 10:58 AM
When we atheists bring up the fact that religion provides a free pass to spout bigotry and hate-filled ideology, the moderately religious (or what I like to call functional atheists) are quick to claim that bigotry would exist even without religion. However, they fail to realize that, working on the theory that the bible contains important, truthful revelations, the WBC cannot be considered a group of bigots but rather crusaders for righteousness. There is no difference between a moderate going to church and the WBC hating "fags." God supposedly orders both; we know it's bullshit, but anyone praying at night is barred from commenting on the stupidity.
Posted by: BuckeyeSteve | January 24, 2008 10:58 AM
In a sense, Phelps and his band of Fredheads are an easy target. They just say what most evangelicals and fundamentalists believe. Billy Graham, Rick Warren, William Dembski, Mike Huckabee all believe exactly the same thing--God tortures unbelievers for infinity.
While they may not show the perverse lack of human decency of Fred & Co. at funerals, they believe that. e.g., most Holocausts victims went from a bad situation to an infinitely worse situation when they died in the gas chambers. They may hem and haw about it, but it is part of their core beliefs.
What is odd though, is that even though their dogma about original sin suggests otherwise, they can't believe God would actually send children to hell (which for them is post-zygotic development through some ill-defined age of accountability)--God can't possibly be that mean! So they make some very strange loopholes, such as for ancients who never would know anything about Jesus or hell--then they say things like, well, um, it's for God to decide (mutter, mutter) based on how they lived (which is also antithetical to their dogma).
Of course FreddyP is a horse of a different color. He may well believe that God will fry us all--and our little dogs too! Just one odd thing about Phelps, who is a super-duper-ultra-Calvinist. Since the game was over it before it began (predestination), why should he give a rat's ass about what is happening to anyone else? The deal is done. It does make his behavior even more evil and infantile in that he seems to be saying: "Nyah nyah nyah--God loves me, he hates you."
Posted by: jeh | January 24, 2008 11:02 AM
Hey, it's not just that. It's the all evils of America, which includes gay marriage ( which isn't so evil and demented after all), or abortion, or voting Democrat, or not kow-towing to their religious beliefs.
Posted by: Moses | January 24, 2008 11:02 AM
If moderates like the Westboro Baptists think like this then goodness what the extremists are thinking.
Posted by: Sigmund | January 24, 2008 11:06 AM
I cried when my mum called me after having seen Brokeback Mountain : she said, I loved this movie, now I understand better the way you feel.
Phelps hated the idea that so many people reacted the way my mother did.
Phelps needs to be put in a psychiatric penitenciary before it's too late, ie before his interpretation of Leviticus finally convinces him that "they should be put to death".
Posted by: negentropyeater | January 24, 2008 11:09 AM
It's not just the fundamentalists or conservative Christians. It's virtually the entire religion with the moderates and "liberals" just tending to avoid the question or invent fantastical explanations why the plain-on-its-face teachings are contrary to the wishy-washiness they express. You touched on this further down in your post regarding children, but I've seen it (at times) across the spectrum for all sorts of unbelievers.
What I see as the difference I see between the right and the left is the expression of glee from the right/conservatives about the suffering those who don't follow their exact brand of Christianity will receive for all of eternity. Whereas the Left/Liberals in Christianity seem to be a bit more put out by it and will, at times, invent all kinds of fantasy stories about their religion to escape it's painful truth.
Posted by: Moses | January 24, 2008 11:11 AM
Kind of makes the Jesus is the only way a little less tenable doesn't it?
Posted by: Uber | January 24, 2008 11:13 AM
nothing else about Heath Ledger is relevant or consequential.
Oh, maybe to Heath it's relevant and consequential. Doesn't mean a goddamed thing to me. Now, if Heath came back and told us about it, now, that would be something!
Posted by: Mooser | January 24, 2008 11:16 AM
As much as I despise Phelps and everything he stands for, I think all he and his little cult want is attention. And the attention they're paid, the more they win.
I don't think they're winning any converts with their antics - and we detractors are just giving ourselves ulcers worrying about it.
We'd all be better off if everyone could just take the old internet adage to heart: "don't feed the trolls".
On Heath Ledger: he had so much potential and his true talent was only beginning to be tapped. After a schlocky start, seemingly doomed to teenage-heart-throb-dom, he really started taking on some demanding roles (Brokeback, most notably) in the last few years. It's sad to think what he might have done with another fifty.
Posted by: Patrick | January 24, 2008 11:17 AM
@ #25--freaking hilarious image. Someone should flash animate that.
Like Andy, I also met the guy in person once; took photos and watched him get interviewed by a local TV reporter in a closed room. I think he was mostly trying to hit on the reporter.
He kept referring to being old, that he'll pass soon and be with God, and wanting his children to take up his mantle. He spoke in a confident but sweet voice, and it would've been sweet had his mantle not been what it is. He does look like a scarecrow, though.
Honestly, though, isn't anyone else kind of burnt out on Phelps? I mean, this is a fairly obvious grab for attention, as was protesting troop funerals. It's like hating gays wasn't the same controversy it used to, so he had to take it up a notch--and that's what I see here, too.
I'd like to say it enrages me, but it doesn't. If anything, I think it helps the gay community a little--hopefully some of the disgust leveled toward Phelps might bleed by proxy over to other, less vitriolic, anti-gay preachers.
Not that I approve even in the slightest what he says, or when he disrupts a funeral. I think I've just been desensitized; it doesn't piss me off enough that I wish to defecate on things, remove others' free speech rights, or exclaim things like "can't somebody do something?!"
He's crazy, his whole family is crazy, and the best thing to do, since they're not gathering followers as far as I've seen, is to ignore them, and let them pass into obscurity after their spokesidiot dies.
PS--I don't think it matters to Phelps and Co. that Ledger isn't actually gay--he performed gay acts (even if it was only kissing another man), and, in their eyes, promoted homosexuality by starring in a sympathetic movie.
Posted by: David H | January 24, 2008 11:20 AM
Patrick--
Beat me to it on the attention thing.
Posted by: David H | January 24, 2008 11:22 AM
Speaking of which, check out what happens when you cuss out Jesus at a roast.
Posted by: Phoenix Woman | January 24, 2008 11:25 AM
I think that last line does more to indicate the WBC's failure not only at their professed faith but also basic humanity than they realize.
I didn't personally know Heath Ledger, never met him, and enjoyed his movies. I knew he got picked on a bit after Brokeback came out, and I was REALLY looking forward to his depiction of the Joker. In the way that some celebrity news is unavoidable, I somehow picked up that he'd been divorced and had a very young daughter. I didn't even know he'd passed until I was at dinner that night and my server told me. I was just shocked, possibly because I possess that most elusive quality of humanity, empathy for others, even to the point where I have nothing in common with them and do not know them personally.
The poor man at some point realized he'd be a better and happier person if he made his living pretending to be someone else, and I think that's laudable. Not everyone can do that or has the courage to follow a dream. The fact that he wasn't behaving like a jerkoff celebrity further made him seem like a basically good person, and I read that he had frequent visits with his daughter and behaved like a proud and doting father.
I think it's quite sad that Phelps and his merry band of assholes had to go out of their way to undermine another person's attempts to be decent because he acted gay in a FILM.
I'm with whoever said they wished they could believe there really was a hell, if only to know that Fred Phelps and the WBC were headed there.
Posted by: Jenbug | January 24, 2008 11:27 AM
Moses,
"Whereas the Left/Liberals in Christianity seem to be a bit more put out by it and will, at times, invent all kinds of fantasy stories about their religion to escape it's painful truth."
What a vile, despicable, righteous piece of S**T !
Sorry if I lose my temper, but as an activist member of the Gay community for the last 25 years, I would rather have people bend their religion and do the right thing,
then you going on about trying to prove to them that the only way to accept homosexuality is to abandon their religion alltogether.
Because I know what the result of this can be. It cost me a broken leg and two months reeducation.
Posted by: negentropyeater | January 24, 2008 11:29 AM
These words of this Phelps hatemonger are so filled will pain and anger its heartbreaking. What must it be like to be inside his mind or within earshot of the hate that spills out of him? It is truly mind-boggling to me that people like Phelps find so much wrong with the world and the best thing they can come up with to make it better is to protest the funeral of an actor that was once in a movie that portrayed, so called, evil. I'm at a loss.
Why can't they pool their collective, we'll call it energy and help themselves and others. Work to help people around them, food & clothing drives, building low income housing and community center for kids, neighborhood cleanups and beautification projects. But I guess that doesn't give them as much satisfaction as thinking about gay people. Hmmm.
Posted by: Sherri | January 24, 2008 11:30 AM
Uber said: Kind of makes the Jesus is the only way a little less tenable doesn't it?
Ah, they are crafty about this sort of thing. They'll say that God changes the rules over time (dispensationalism, as an extreme form of this thinking), sorta like to mix things up and keep things interesting. Different strokes for different folks.
As a odd example of this sort of belief system, Tim LaHaye's (CEO of Rapture Inc.) most recent "novel" has any child born in the post-apocalyptic millennial era instantly die and go to hell at age 100 (kind of an extended adolescence) if they have not acknowledged Jesus (who is now king of Terra) as Messiah.
If they would only spend this kind of mental effort figuring out how to feed the poor and care for the sick. As if!
Posted by: jeh | January 24, 2008 11:32 AM
pwe @#30
David's right about that a couple of comments up. Phelps and his ilk believe acceptance or tolerance of homosexuality is sinful in and of itself. Just appearing in a film that promotes acceptance and moves society even a little toward greater tolerance makes him a sinner in their minds.
Posted by: SeanH | January 24, 2008 11:35 AM
This is, of course, sickening and outrageous, but the Westboro Baptist Church are only really interested in publicity. They want you to publicise them, PZ, by reproducing their hate on your blog. Don't rise to the bait; don't do their work for them.
Posted by: Willo the Wisp | January 24, 2008 11:36 AM
If Christians really had the conviction of their beliefs, the *only* thing that would matter to them would be whether a person was destined for heaven or hell. So Phelps has right, for once, and exposes how warped a Christian's perspective on life (on Earth) would be if more Christians understood the logical consequences of their irrational faith.
Posted by: tacitus | January 24, 2008 11:36 AM
These people are human filth! I find absolutely nothing redeeming in the interpretation of Old Testament dogma that they espouse as revealed truth!
I'm often told by Christians that these SCUMBAGS do not represent 'true Christianity' or what it means to be a 'Christ follower'. Really? If you really mean what you say then you'd better damned well start shouting it from the roof tops! These monsters read the same Bible you do and yet they come up with vitriolic and intolerant views such as what's pictured above?
If you truly are a 'Christ followers' then it is incumbent upon you, the Body of Christ, to be in the fore front denouncing filth like this as loudly, vocally and vehemently as you can. Otherwise, people like me will continue to see all 'Christ Followers' as a monolith of intolerance and supporters of repugnant morality.
I don't advocate the demise of anyone. But these people are SLIME not worthy of the oxygen they breathe. I can say with out fear the the world would be far better off without them.
All that said, I can't help but think that many of these purported 'Christ followers' secretly in their hearts concur whole-heartedly with the judgment of these evil bastards at Westboro Baptist Church. What other conclusion can I draw? Where is the outrage? Where is the solidarity with the loved ones of the people whose funerals these assholes have picketed at? I think, secretly, many 'Christ followers' admire the gall of Phelps and his ghoulish brood. If that's the case then YOU are even beneath him in my eyes. While Phelps and his in-bred ilk wear their hate and conviction on their polyester sleeves YOU hide yours and inwardly revel in your own self-righteousness! Who is has the monopoly on moral repugnance?
You wonder why people like myself want no part of your twisted little religion? SHIT like this this is an example!
Look at that turns out I had plenty of words! Here's a few more..
FUCK YOU PHELPS AND YOUR WHOLE IN-BRED TROGLODYTE FAMILY!!
R.
Posted by: Robert | January 24, 2008 11:43 AM
Whether or not Ledger was gay is beside the point; that the evidence strongly suggests he was not simply adds a layer of irony to the whole thing. I doubt very much that the people of the WBC confused the film with reality and concluded that Ledger himself was gay. Clearly the objection is to his involvement with the film, his sympathetic portrayal of a homosexual human being, and how these actions add up to promotion of the so-called Homosexual Agenda.
That, apparently, is the problem: it's a damnable sin> to promote the idea that homosexuality is a benign aspect of humanity, that gays have as much right to live and love with the consenting adult of their choice as do heterosexuals, that hate and phobic thinking projected towards gays contribute negatively to the overall state of the human condition.
If that's the case, then I, my family, and many of our friends are doomed to an eternity of suffering for our support of our gay friends and family members and our open support of marriage equality here in Massachusetts. Whether or not any of us are gay (or not) doesn't (and shouldn't) matter. It doesn't to the WBC, though for all the wrong reasons.
Well, Phelps and his cult of freaks are insane. If only they would allow us to ignore them! I pity them and their wretched existence, and if I was the praying kind, I'd pray that they be granted quick release from the life of hate in which they have been entombed.
Posted by: Kseniya | January 24, 2008 11:46 AM
Phelps' death is the only reason that I wish Hell were real. The look on old Phred's face when he realizes where he would get to spend eternity after death would be priceless.
Especially when he meets Strom, Jesse, and Ronnie.
I'm throwing a party the day Jesse Helms dies.
Posted by: MAJeff | January 24, 2008 11:54 AM
Steve Price, a radio shock jock here in Australia, interviewed a member of the Westboro Baptists today about the death of Heath and, well, the result is hilarious. To give a taste of the chat, when he asks if she has visited Australia she says "I wouldn't dare set a foot in your filthy country. You'd send me straight to jail". In the words of Steve Price she is a stupid bitter twisted person.
Steve Price is a dill and I usually wouldn't give him the time of day but this little 6 minute interview is pure gold.
Interview here...
http://www.mytalk.com.au/aspx/pages/mediaplayer.aspx?t=audio&w=6207
Posted by: Shane | January 24, 2008 11:54 AM
Q: How can you tell if your god is a man-made god?
A: He hates the same people you do.
What a horribly hate filled think for a "church" to do.
Posted by: Suzanne | January 24, 2008 11:59 AM
Here is just another example of the complete and entrenched
insanity of religion, intruding into all phases of human
manner. As I have in several comments to these blogs, I
will not relent in denouncing my hatred of religion and
all who force their deranged ideas on others as a matter
of course.There are several among us who deign to dismiss
my methods as uncivil and demeaning to the atheist and
rational cause. We cannnot kowtow to these insane morons
in any way except to remind them that they are a pox on
civilization and rational thought and behavior. I say we
should unleash a floodgate of vituperation and plain old
retaliatory nastiness on these deranged cretins and have
them get their god to do all that they are currently
doing without human intervention. Give no quarter to these
rabid morons. How long do we have to be complacent with
this insane bullshit? Smash them all, and let their god
sort them out.
Posted by: holbach | January 24, 2008 12:01 PM
Why can't they pool their collective, we'll call it energy and help themselves and others.
In their twisted minds, they are. Calling one damned is far better than allowing them to remain damned. That's the mindset (and I've heard it from LOTS of homohaters).
Not saying I like it or think they have any social use or value--but they're consistent.
Posted by: MAJeff | January 24, 2008 12:03 PM
To follow up on Kseniya's comment, what worries me most about the WBC is not this kind of ridiculous picketing and these declarations;
On the contrary, it helps our cause (I'm a gay activist and a free thinker).
No, what worries me is what are they going to do next, when they realise that it doesn't work...
Afterall, there is another version of Leviticus that calls for a bit more action wrt to men who lie in bed with other men, "they should be put to death" it says.
God knows what he's going to tell Phelps next time they have a conversation.
Posted by: negentropyeater | January 24, 2008 12:05 PM
Heath Ledger had a special kind of charisma that came through exceptionally well in "A Knight's Tale". A few years ago, HBO was running it all the time and it was so much fun I'd just leave it on and watch it all over again. You could tell that Ledger was a smart, energetic and independent guy. Those same qualities, that led him to tackle controversial roles, are exactly those qualities that religious mongers--of which Phelps is only a more extreme example--hate and want to kill.
Posted by: RamblinDude | January 24, 2008 12:07 PM
Well, I found Fred Jr most engaging in this interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZPsTM-4qgg&eurl
Irresistible
Posted by: True Bob | January 24, 2008 12:07 PM
See, you guys have it all wrong. Phelps is a master of irony, and he's on our side. He's made it his life work to show the hatred and bigotry inherent in the Bible by living it out as a demonstration to the world. His ultimate goal is to cause people to turn away from Xianity to atheism, and he's damned successful. Really, folks, he's a modern day Socrates fighting the good fight, and we should all thank him.
;)
Posted by: Ric | January 24, 2008 12:08 PM
Naw, the whole gay hating thing is getting boring, been there done that. They will probably go after people who eat pork, shellfish, or eels. Eels are bad because they don't have scales (supposedly). Deadly sins there.
I expect them to hang around the docks condemming shell fishers to hell and calling them "fags". For 10 minutes until someone pushes them off the docks.
Posted by: raven | January 24, 2008 12:19 PM
Ric: Wow. You've really opened my eyes here today. Bless you. :-)
Posted by: Kseniya | January 24, 2008 12:20 PM
With a bowl of water hemlock tea, or by felling a hemlock tree on him?
Posted by: Stanton | January 24, 2008 12:22 PM
All of you people who are saying "Don't give them the attention," I don't think you're right, and here's why I don't think you're right. I am pretty sure that they operate much like the rest of the radical right in the US. Here's David Neiwert on why "don't give them publicity" is a bad idea:
What we didn't understand was that the silence was ... interpreted as consent.
(emphasis mine)
Trolls mostly do their thing to "fuck shit up," as we like to say in the pungent idiom of my formative punk-rock years, which is why talking about recipes makes them go away. I don't think that's the correct analogy, since I'm pretty sure that Phelps and his ilk have at least one thing in common with the Minutemen, the Christian Identity people, the neo-Nazis, and the rest of that crew: They really, genuinely believe the crap they're spouting. Letting them continue to spout it unmolested will either lead to anti-gay hate crimes or else give them an opportunity to try to mainstream their bullshit.
Negentropyeater, that story about your mum is really sweet. No offense intended, but it did make me want to give you a hug. :)
Posted by: Interrobang | January 24, 2008 12:22 PM
These people would picket the grave of a cat if you told them it was gay.
BTW, did anyone catch the diary on Kos the other day when a Kossack encountered a WBC picket line in KS and countered them with punk rock to the satisfaction of other drivers? Good stuff.
Posted by: BlueIndependent | January 24, 2008 12:24 PM
Phelps was a figure the GLBT community had to deal with for years with few comments from straight people. It was not until the Phelps clan started cheerleading for the murderers of Matthew Shepard that straight people knew who they were. Even then, it was the friends of Shepard who came up with the giant angels to block out the Phelps when the cameras were on. The cops were not going to keep them away.
The Phelps clan were protesting at the funerals of gay men for years before the Shepard murder. It was not until the Phelps moved on to protesting the funeral of military personal that law makers starting moving against them. Forgive me if I do not express shock over the actions of these people. All I can say is this, welcome to my world.
Oh, Moses, just for the record, Fred Phelps was a registered Democrat for many years.
Posted by: Janine | January 24, 2008 12:25 PM
None of which changes the fact that these would then be different lines independent of Jesus belief.
Posted by: Uber | January 24, 2008 12:28 PM
Longsmith wrote: I understand that his body is being sent to Australia for burial. Will the whole church go? Can they be persuaded to stay? What a vile group.
Aw, don't wish this mess on Australia. Even if you're still fuming that they sent us Rupert Murdoch, we trumped them by loaning them Hutton Gibson.
As for the Westboro-trained ignoramus who "wouldn't set foot" in Australia: If I lived there, I'd be relieved to hear that.
Posted by: Julie Stahlhut | January 24, 2008 12:35 PM
Now that's just all kinds of bullshit.
Posted by: stogoe | January 24, 2008 12:35 PM
I've been protested by the Phelpses of Wichita. Twice, but neither time very interesting. The first was on the night of May 16, 2004, when marriage equality finally came into being in MA. There were, oh, 10,000 (according to some reports) people on the front lawn of Cambridge City Hall having a big ol' party, and a couple Phelpses were across the street with their signs being ignored. They left fairly early.
The other time was when i was attending the NGLTF Creating Change conference in Dallas (1994?) The Phelpsies were protesting the hotel/conference space. A group of us was coming back from dinner and saw Freddie and the Gang, and went to our rooms as quickly as possible. Alas, by the time we'd returned from the 24th floor with our cameras, the Phelpses were gone. No picture with Santa :(
Posted by: MAJeff | January 24, 2008 12:37 PM
Has anyone come in and said the ubiquitous "But... but... Fred Phelps and clan aren't real Christians" yet?
Those folks are my favorites.
Posted by: Dan | January 24, 2008 12:41 PM
Jesus, dude, you're acting like a total-in-denial-over-reacting-douche-bag because I put a pin in your rationalization, so stop it. I don't care whether you like it or not, even the "liberal" Christians have a huge fucking blind-spot to their conduct as they do their best to change their religion from:
That's a god-damn rationalization of the first water in order to get around the hateful aspects of THE BIBLE, the cornerstone of their religion. The bible is, on its face, a bronze-age hate-fest. One which I reject entirely including its fucking homophobia, misogyny and other inherent bullshit all of which says you, among many (the whole list in Leviticus, etc.), are a fucking piece of shit to be killed because you are what you are.
Like I've said many times, I don't believe in that biblical crap. But I also see (as a former priest-in-training BTW) what a load of rationalized codswallop moderate-to-liberal Christianity has become. And while think Christianity becoming more liberal and tolerant is a good thing, I think it's better to just admit there is no Santa and that your ever more complex rationalizations of how presents get under the tree is a waste of time.
And that belief in reality sure as hell doesn't make me "a vile, despicable, righteous piece of S**T !" What it does make me is a grown up. Because, unlike the four-year-old you're acting like, I know how the presents get under the tree and I don't need to make up stories about Santa.
Also, thank you for pointing out just how over-reactive and intolerant even liberal Christians can be of those who disagree with Christianity and it's foibles. You're acting just like a fucking stereotype of everything PZ says about "liberal" Christians and Christianity.
Posted by: Moses | January 24, 2008 12:41 PM
I find it highly amusing that the zip code for Westboro Baptist Church starts with "666". They are clearly tools of Satan put on earth to make it incredibly difficult for "normal" believers to get any kind of respect. Well, more incredibly difficult.
Posted by: Doc Holladay | January 24, 2008 12:44 PM