…and this is a 
I could be killing people here!
Category: Religion
Posted on: January 23, 2008 3:18 PM, by PZ Myers
Sayed Perwiz Kambakhsh, a journalist in Afghanistan, has been arrested and condemned for downloading articles on the internet that are critical of Islam.
Kambakhsh, a student at Balkh University and a journalist for Jahan-e Naw (New World), was arrested in October 2007 after material he downloaded was deemed to be offensive to Islam.
Shamsur Rahman, the head of the court, told Reuters news agency: "According to... the Islamic law, Sayed Perwiz is sentenced to death at the first court.
"However, he will go through three more courts to declare his last punishment," he said.
I would say right now that Islam is an evil and atrocious collection of obsolete myths that is a threat to human sanity and safety (along with Christianity and Judaism, the other Abrahamic afflictions), but I better not—somebody reading it in the wrong place might get arrested.
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Comments
good grief. it wasn't some sort of educational material was it?
Posted by: alex | January 23, 2008 3:26 PM
How selfless of you.
Posted by: Stephen | January 23, 2008 3:28 PM
And suddenly I'm reminded of that picture of the Islamic protester holding a sign that said "Behead those who say Islam is a violent religion!" And this is happening in Afghanistan too... a country that we supposedly "fixed" with our war on terror. Just goes to show you what kind of atrocities our leaders are willing to ignore to make their policies look good.
Posted by: HumanisticJones | January 23, 2008 3:30 PM
Sometimes you just want to snatch people up and shout "Are you fucking insane??"
But ... I already know the answer is yes.
Similarly insane things happen in the west, and even in western courts (but for different reasons).
It's so weird hearing about something like this, and instantly knowing it's crazy, and wondering just what sort of severely altered state of consciousness everybody was in to let it happen.
But it's actually pretty easy: You take a wacky starting premise, you extend it ridiculously far, you don't check your results anywhere along the way with the real world, and you end up in freako land.
This is why religion (among other altered mental states) is so dangerous. It predisposes you to get wrong answers, and not to notice.
Posted by: Hank Fox | January 23, 2008 3:31 PM
That picture is photoshopped. The original isn't much better though--it says "Behead those who insult Islam."
Posted by: Wes | January 23, 2008 3:41 PM
How was he to know what the articles said before he downloaded and read them?
Posted by: Enkidu | January 23, 2008 3:42 PM
I thought the point of 'Operation Enduring Freedom' was to remove religious extremists like these?
Posted by: MH | January 23, 2008 3:46 PM
Weren't the religious extremists removed by religious extremists though?
Posted by: Scrofulum | January 23, 2008 3:49 PM
How else is it going to maintain its status as "the fastest growing religion"?
Posted by: R N B | January 23, 2008 3:50 PM
I wonder who shopped the poor guy? Who was spying on him? How much spying goes on there?
What a crap State. What a crap religion.
Posted by: Richard Harris | January 23, 2008 3:54 PM
"Remove" the religious extremists? Hell-we helped create these groups, and our current "allies" in Pakistan are deeply embedded with the wackiness.
Posted by: Brian | January 23, 2008 4:11 PM
Hank:
Sometimes? Yes. I have been experiencing this urge more and more frequently over the past several years. It's nearly a daily occurrance now. o_O
Posted by: Kseniya | January 23, 2008 4:14 PM
Had any kind of normal political development been allowed to take place in those countries, I'm sure religion would not have the powers it does.
Posted by: Mooser | January 23, 2008 4:22 PM
Speaking of insane religious extremists, how 'bout that Phelps clan? Yikes!
Posted by: Mena | January 23, 2008 4:29 PM
What can you say about a superstition where the men think it is admirable to get together in groups and stick their asses in the air and bang their foreheads on the ground - a sort of sodomite circle jerk.
Posted by: bernarda | January 23, 2008 4:29 PM
You've got to love the vagueness of the term "offensive to Islam". You could twist that around to mean just about anything.
Posted by: Bob L | January 23, 2008 4:41 PM
According to this story:
http://cpj.org/news/2008/asia/afghan14jan08na.html
the "offensive material" is an article which claimed that Mohammed was no champion of women's rights. (Imagine.)
You might think that our time spent in Afghanistan is wasted, but read a little further. The story suggests that the real reason Kambakhsh was arrested is that his brother, also a journalist, is speaking truth to power. Apparently he's been arrested on mostly-fabricated charges in order to convince his family to keep its collective mouth shut. You gotta give those mullahs credit: they've learned their Bush-doctrine lessons well.
Posted by: Billy | January 23, 2008 4:42 PM
Heath Ledger, 28, found dead in his NYC apartment? Oh dear...
Posted by: Kseniya | January 23, 2008 4:44 PM
If you think someone is going to hell anyway, why would you worry about how long the trip takes? Religion is just the excuse though. It's probably not a coincidence that he's a journalist.
Posted by: JRS | January 23, 2008 4:54 PM
When one feels threatened by criticism to the point of administering death in order to avoid said criticism, it's obvious something just ain't right. Hmmm... wasn't Jesus sacrificed to a blood-thirsty god?
Posted by: Kelly Gorski | January 23, 2008 4:56 PM
Not to wander too far off topic here, but I have actually encountered a few kind and loving Christians pointing out that Mr. Ledger deserved to die as a result of his role in Brokeback Mountain.
PZ's right, though. Religion is a horrible affliction which leads people to abandon reason, logic and common sense. And, to say that someone deserves to die for insulting someone's chosen mythology is so fucking backwards, it's terrifying. What we need is to get it into these god-soaked heads that if they are so offended and put off in this sin-infested world, perhaps they should fall on their swords and beat that rush to the eternal afterlife.
Posted by: Dan | January 23, 2008 5:01 PM
Note the choice of words;
Shamsur Rahman, the head of the court, told Reuters news agency: "According to... the Islamic law, Sayed Perwiz is sentenced to death at the first court.
"However, he will go through three more courts to declare his last punishment," he said.
That's judge speak for "I know what I've just ruled is FUBAR, but the law doesn't allow me any other option at this stage. Luckily the system will process the case through several more stages where someone will have the opportunity to reduce it to a token judgement".
Posted by: James | January 23, 2008 5:03 PM
hey, leave judaism out of it. Mentioning it in context with the other two ignores the fact that they are ripoffs in every sense imaginable. Judaism values literacy and science as few other religions do.
Posted by: Asher Elbein | January 23, 2008 5:03 PM
Thanks for that link, Billy. I didn't see that before I posted. It all makes sense now.
Posted by: JRS | January 23, 2008 5:04 PM
Yeah, I heard about Heath Ledger. It's a damn shame, but at least The Dark Knight is done filming*.
*yeah, yeah, I'm an insensitive clod.
Posted by: stogoe | January 23, 2008 5:06 PM
Mooser: religious extremism is "normal political development". Secular democracy is the aberration.
Posted by: RickD | January 23, 2008 5:06 PM
Offensive huh. Their "almighty" god cannot stand to be insulted by a "puny" human? Thats fairly pathetic. As the oldest of five kids, I can tell you I was held to a higher standard by my mother on countless occasions. I was not permitted to seek retribution for merely being offended.
But then, Religion isnt about god, its about the very earthly power of men.
Posted by: Andy James | January 23, 2008 5:14 PM
I know these are intended as kinda rhetorical/ironic statements but:
Bob LYou've got to love the vagueness of the term "offensive to Islam". You could twist that around to mean just about anything. Ah, I see you're beginning to catch on.
and MH I thought the point of 'Operation Enduring Freedom' was to remove religious extremists like these? More like securing the Caspian Sea oil pipeline now that our pet religious extremists are no longer playing ball.
Posted by: AlanWCan | January 23, 2008 5:14 PM
Damned good point, Enkidu.
50. Curse them! Curse them! Curse them!
51. With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.
52. I flap my wings in the face of Mohammed & blind him.
-Aleister Crowley's Book of the Law.
Posted by: hf | January 23, 2008 5:25 PM
Time for us to go on the offensive. These bastards have been indoctrinating everyone within reach for thousands of years (Abrahamic religions), and should we ever speak up and say they are wrong, we're suddenly offending. If they want us to offend, let's go ahead and offend their sensitive sensibilities. Take your fucking self righteous chosen people bullshit with you to your grave, along with that 2000 year old supposedly nailed megalomaniacal bastard, and that praying 5 times a day because you fear some jealous wrathful deity that at the same time is watching over you, waiting for you to fuck up. Wow, these fuckers sure have some strange beliefs. Oh, let's go on fasting for a month so that our sins are forgiven (but killing someone who disagrees with us is not a sin, so no worries), or we can't eat pork, must chop part of our masculinity off, must wear hats, bang our heads against walls, the ground, have to drink someones blood and flesh, sacrifice animals to appease some asshole of a deity that will fuck you over if you accidentally mess up.
The funny thing is these are just the Abrahamic religions, imagine how crazy and wild the rest of this shit around the world is. Drinking milk from the same rat infested bowl you fed your temple rats with because they resemble your god, going up on top of a mountain for weeks to meditate and attempt to achieve a perfection that only apparently some fat bastard a couple thousand years ago has accomplished. It gets even more fun, like drinking a ceremonial fermented beverage via saliva from the skull of your deceased great grandfather while gnawing on the fleshy little bits of his arm you saved because there's a drought.
Posted by: Helioprogenus | January 23, 2008 5:31 PM
HumanisticJones and Wes:
-Original
-Photoshopped (or Gimped. ;) image
Also: This and this.
These are for educational purposes, of course.
Posted by: Alex | January 23, 2008 5:45 PM
PZ, you would of been burned at the cross a long time ago.
Posted by: Geral | January 23, 2008 5:49 PM
I could be killing people here!
The way people react, it's sometimes surprising to find out you--and the rest of us--aren't.
Posted by: MAJeff | January 23, 2008 5:49 PM
Not to wander too far off topic here, but I have actually encountered a few kind and loving Christians pointing out that Mr. Ledger deserved to die as a result of his role in Brokeback Mountain
Are you kidding me? It's those kind of people who make me wish there were a hell.
Posted by: MAJeff | January 23, 2008 5:51 PM
Check it out:
. .
V
___
I call it "Portrait of Mohammed as a Woman"
Enjoy.
Posted by: Great White Wonder | January 23, 2008 5:58 PM
How was he to know what the articles said before he downloaded and read them?
This reminds me of the movie Z. P. G. where the protagonist was reading information on child birth (uncontrolled birth was outlawed) when he was caught and questioned. He said something along the lines of, "I wanted to see how much of this filth was available for people to access."
Posted by: nfk | January 23, 2008 6:01 PM
No doubt his university will protest this and stand up for intellectual freedom, right? Right?
Posted by: Moggie | January 23, 2008 6:02 PM
Sayed Perwiz. Take out the "erwi" and you have PZ. Turn the "W" upside down, take the "y" from "Sayed," then the "er" from the leftover "erwi" and the "S" from Sayed, and what do you have? PZ Myers. I think my point is clear.
QED, bitches.
Posted by: Greg Peterson | January 23, 2008 6:18 PM
"Coming to a country near you....." Huckleberry wants to add more "God" to the US Constitution.
Stuff like won't be far behind.
Posted by: Steverino | January 23, 2008 6:55 PM
hey, leave judaism out of it. Mentioning it in context with the other two ignores the fact that they are ripoffs in every sense imaginable. Judaism values literacy and science as few other religions do.
Dude, you are smoking crack. Orthodox Jews are every bit as bad about science as muslims. Most of them don't cater to evolution, and actually getting them to attend public university is a miracle in its own right. The only learning that's treasured by Judaism is memorizing the "wisdom" of the scriptures.
There's plenty of secular jews, and modern jews, and non-orthodox jews who don't have a problem with science -- but guess what? That's cuz they're farther away from the fundamentals of their religion. Maybe there's a general cultural appreciation for science in the jewish community (can't bring myself to 'jewry') in the US, but I don't think that has too much to do with the religious roots of Judaism.
Posted by: inkadu | January 23, 2008 7:20 PM
#32"PZ, you would of been burned at the cross a long time ago."
Would HAVE. I'm sorry. Drives. Me. Batshit. Crazy.
Posted by: Josh | January 23, 2008 7:22 PM
Josh, spare yourself some future grief by utilizing the fool-proof contraction woulda.
Posted by: Kseniya | January 23, 2008 7:39 PM
I think we could quite easily make a long, long list of Jews who are equally idiotic about made up fairy tale deities slavering over where they put their private bits. Just because a religion produces (or excommunicates, or chases off) someone of value and intelligence doesn't make the religion good. And Judaism is a religion, just like all the other fucking stupid religions.
Posted by: garth | January 23, 2008 7:45 PM
Looks like a few others have already said it better than I.
Judaism values literacy and science as few other religions do.
Surely you jest, Asher Elbein, because the last time I checked they still believed in an invisible sky daddy. That's real scientific for you.
Posted by: Fernando Magyar | January 23, 2008 8:01 PM
I used to live in Afghanistan, I could tell you that crap like this didn't happen before the 1980's. It was just convenient for Pakistan and the west to prop up these extremists for their political gain. I believe it was the NSA Advisor for Carter who told the religious extremists in a refugee camp in Pakistan that they'll take over Afghanistan from the Soviets because "God is on your side" (then the US gave them 3 billion dollars worth of weapons in the next decade). Afghanistan has Shariah law now because of the fact that the west has supported the idiots who are in power now. And, the laws will be here to stay because no one will dare say anything against religion.
Posted by: DrBadger | January 23, 2008 8:53 PM
But remember guys, those are the extremists. The majority of those who believe the exact same things as these nutcases are sweet and kind and more moral and get to see their granpappies when they die because of religion.
So religions themselves aren't bad per se. Apparently, it's just those who believe in 'em that are.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 23, 2008 9:08 PM
It seems to me that the major reason that most American Jews are viewed as being less anti-reality than other religious folk is because they don't take their religion seriously.
The major religious text is explicitly stated to not be taken literally. How many other religions have gotten even that far?
Posted by: MRL | January 23, 2008 9:36 PM
So what's your point Brownian, let's all finally declare, for the 3756th time that religions are the worst evil, shake all these God-soaked heads up a bit, get them all to agree with it, and the problem is solved. Easy no ?
Posted by: negentropyeater | January 23, 2008 9:43 PM
What do ya know? Another expert on Judaism chimes in:
"hey, leave judaism out of it. Mentioning it in context with the other two ignores the fact that they are ripoffs in every sense imaginable. Judaism values literacy and science as few other religions do."
"Dude, you are smoking crack. Orthodox Jews are every bit as bad about science as muslims. Most of them don't cater to evolution, and actually getting them to attend public university is a miracle in its own right. The only learning that's treasured by Judaism is memorizing the "wisdom" of the scriptures."
There's plenty of secular jews, and modern jews, and non-orthodox jews who don't have a problem with science -- but guess what?
There's plenty of Orthodox who don't as well. Most of them, in fact.
I once worked with an Orthodox fellow, Hat, earlocks and all, who did his thesis on isotoperases and had no problem with evolution.
I'm sorry, but as half my family is quite orthodox, including Rabbis, the only one here smoking crack is you. I suppose some people, when they see muslims get ripped, feel they are being fair by ripping Jews in return. Are the Orthodox all angles? No, and you're no prize either.
By the way, any orthodox Jews flying planes into skyscrapers lately?
"That's cuz they're farther away from the fundamentals of their religion."
You don't know a fucking thing about the fundamentals of Judaism. And for starters, the Haredi (ultra -Orthodox) are comparative new comers as that movement didn't get started until the 18th century.
" Maybe there's a general cultural appreciation for science in the jewish community (can't bring myself to 'jewry') in the US, but I don't think that has too much to do with the religious roots of Judaism. "
How would you know?
Posted by: Stuart Weinstein | January 23, 2008 9:55 PM
DrBadgerI used to live in Afghanistan, I could tell you that crap like this didn't happen before the 1980's. It was just convenient for Pakistan and the west to prop up these extremists for their political gain. I believe it was the NSA Advisor for Carter who told the religious extremists in a refugee camp in Pakistan that they'll take over Afghanistan from the Soviets because "God is on your side" (then the US gave them 3 billion dollars worth of weapons in the next decade). Afghanistan has Shariah law now because of the fact that the west has supported the idiots who are in power now. And, the laws will be here to stay because no one will dare say anything against religion.
Carter is a quite outspoken Christian, so was Regan. I wouldn't be too surprised if Charly Wilson considers himself a good Christian for all his debauchery. This Afghanistan mess is the result our would be theocrats playing out their sick fantasies on some hapless little country.
Posted by: Bob L | January 23, 2008 9:57 PM
If you're a loser/sociopath who can't function in society, the easiest thing to do is become a Islamic religious fanatic.
Instantly, people will listen to your insane ravings.
You can pretend to be morally superior to half the planet and to all women.
You can hold people in contempt of your special book and sentence them to death.
Instant power! Attention! Superiority!
At this point, Islam should be deemed offensive to itself and tossed onto the ash heap of history.
Posted by: CalGeorge | January 23, 2008 10:01 PM
I'm sorry, but the metaphysical doctrines of Judaism are no more friendly to science than any other religion believing in a personal god. It's true that Judaism as a culture has produced some of the greatest scientists in history, but the same could be said for Christendom as a culture. Christianity and Judaism - and Islam - as systems of belief are filled with useless and dangerous rubbish.
Posted by: Chuck | January 23, 2008 10:20 PM
All I can say is that these countries need more people like Sayed Perwiz Kambakhsh, people who risk their lives in order to enlighten things from the inside.
They are the real heroes, the revolutionaries of our time.
Posted by: negentropyeater | January 23, 2008 10:20 PM
And why is it that we don't have more Americans protesting the war in Afghanistan? Clearly it isn't doing anything as our allies are just as bad as our enemies. A useless war to prop up a corrupt regime.
Posted by: coathangrrr | January 23, 2008 10:39 PM
Yes!
Wait...you're being facetious, aren't you?
I haven't a clue what to say to these types. It's the moderates that have the potential to one day wake up and say, "Waitaminnit?! What the hell am I defending?"
Hey, it could happen.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 23, 2008 10:43 PM
I haven't a clue what to say to these types.
Try the direct approach.
Explain to them that religion is an artifact. Religion poisons everything.
Then hand them The God Delusion or God Is Not Great, and tell them it'll be on the test.
Posted by: melior | January 23, 2008 11:04 PM
It's the moderates that have the potential to one day wake up and say, "Waitaminnit?! What the hell am I defending?"
Which would work if the moderates were defending the extremists, but they aren't. They defend their understanding of their religion.
Posted by: coathangrrr | January 23, 2008 11:09 PM
@#57, the problem is that the moderates still believe what the extremists are fighting for, they just aren't acting on it.
@those who think Judiasm doesn't belong with Islam and Christianity... consider that Islam once brought out the world's leaders in science. Astronomy, medicine, math, philosophy, and much more survived the dark ages because the Muslims actually studied them. Just because you believe in evolution or are good at science doesn't make you any less crazy for believing in superstition. There may not be many of them, but there are jewish extremists and with the superstition still going strong in the "moderates", it doesn't take much for extremism to spread and rational thought and science suppressed.
Posted by: DrBadger | January 23, 2008 11:51 PM
the problem is that the moderates still believe what the extremists are fighting for, they just aren't acting on it.
No, they don't. That's the whole point. Unless you mean that they believe in God, but that's a pretty useless statement. Moreover, by that reasoning I can hold all people who believe in democracy responsible for the war in Iraq. Because Bush said that he invaded to bring democracy, so it is obviously democracies fault. Of course, I realize that there are moderate democrats, but they still believe what the extremists like Bush believe, they just aren't acting on it.
Posted by: coathangrrr | January 24, 2008 12:03 AM
"@those who think Judiasm doesn't belong with Islam and Christianity... consider that Islam once brought out the world's leaders in science. Astronomy, medicine, math, philosophy, and much more survived the dark ages because the Muslims actually studied them."
You mean just Muslims? Or does that include Jews living in the Ottoman empire like Maimonides?
"Just because you believe in evolution or are good at science doesn't make you any less crazy for believing in superstition."
So you're a shrink too?
"There may not be many of them, but there are jewish extremists and with the superstition still going strong in the "moderates", it doesn't take much for extremism to spread and rational thought and science suppressed."
Hmmm. So the Jews started suicide bombing Germans did they? Extreme people they.
And I take it you're convinced that their aren't extremists who are atheists?
When conditions are right extremism in any of its form, religious, nationalist, etc. can spread.
You don't think you said anything profound here, do you?
Posted by: Stuart Weinstein | January 24, 2008 12:11 AM
Stuart Weinstein - troll troll troll troll troll troll troll
And the only thing those of us on PZ's site who actually answered this troll was a 'name' bait.
hey, my name could be um.... Sarah...
Posted by: LeeLeeOne | January 24, 2008 12:45 AM
@#60, "You mean just Muslims? Or does that include Jews living in the Ottoman empire like Maimonides?"
Actually Maimonides lived before the Ottoman empire, but you're missing my point. I'm just saying that a religion that is considered extreme by many now was actually fairly progressive at some time, so the argument that jews are good scientists so they can't ever be nuts like muslims doesn't work.
""Just because you believe in evolution or are good at science doesn't make you any less crazy for believing in superstition."
So you're a shrink too?"
Actually, I might be. You don't have much of an argument there. Believing in something that doesn't exist may be considered psychosis. If someone goes on a killing spree because a magic green tiger told them to, everyone would agree that they need medications. If someone goes on a killing spree because God told them to kill gay people, lots of people wouldn't think that person is insane.
The rest of your argument misses my point. I'm saying that when there are a lot of people who believe in something irrational there's a lot of potential for someone acting upon those irrational beliefs (say, like religious extremists do). Just because it didn't happen in WWII doesn't mean that a Jew don't have the potential of one day (i.e. assassinating Rabin) being a religious extremist.
I don't really know of any examples of an atheist killing people simply because they don't believe in god (sure there are athests that have killed people, but it wasn't because of some deep non-belief in god that they had).
You're just suffering from a common symptom that religious people have. It's okay to call other people names, but when you talk about my religion, I'm offended.
Posted by: DrBadger | January 24, 2008 1:02 AM
"Stuart Weinstein - troll troll troll troll troll troll troll
And the only thing those of us on PZ's site who actually answered this troll was a 'name' bait.
hey, my name could be um.... Sarah... "
??
Uh, funny but I don't recall seeing anything authored by you in this forum before.
And as PZ could tell you, I ain't no troll, and that is my real name and I've been a regular on talk.origins for 13 years.
I was having a "spirited" but adult conversation. If you are mentally too inadequate to participate, then just be quiet. Don't act like a troll.
Posted by: Stuart Weinstein | January 24, 2008 1:04 AM
@59 - I might as well answer you to, before i go to sleep.
If religous people didn't believe in some random book being the absolute truth handed down by god, then chances are that there wouldn't be too many extremists taking that random book literally (i.e. extremist muslims stoning women for leaving their homes without a headscarf). The democracy and bush example doesn't work because its not that the moderates are literally supporting everything that the extremists say (moderates would likely be against stoning), but their unwavering acceptance of their rules and their holy book opens the door for someone taking things literally and becoming an extremist.
Posted by: DrBadger | January 24, 2008 1:16 AM
their unwavering acceptance of their rules and their holy book opens the door for someone taking things literally and becoming an extremist.
But they obviously don't have unwavering acceptance of their rules and their holy book. I'm not Christian, I'm atheist, but I know plenty of Christians who do not unwaveringly accept the rules of the bible. I would say a vast minority of Christians do so. The only ones that do are the literalists, that's what literalist means. Moreover, you're wrong about the moderates not supporting Bush. The vast, vast majority of people in the United States do little more than speak out against the war in Iraq, despite the fact that they claim to be against it. They do just as much as the moderate members of religions such as Islam in terms of stopping the violence, less even as there are governments and people who are Muslims who successfully stop other Muslims from doing harm to others. The reason for this is because we have a democracy, and we voted for Bush and people like democracy more than they like stopping war.
Posted by: coathangrrr | January 24, 2008 1:28 AM
@#60, "You mean just Muslims? Or does that include Jews living in the Ottoman empire like Maimonides?"
Actually Maimonides lived before the Ottoman empire, "
He lived during the reign of the Saladins, which is when Islam was clearly on the ascent.
"but you're missing my point. I'm just saying that a religion that is considered extreme by many now was actually fairly progressive at some time, so the argument that jews are good scientists so they can't ever be nuts like muslims doesn't work."
I got your point. Mine seem to have rushed right over your head.
Anybody can be nuts. If you had a point, I think you forgotten it. I suppose Eco-terrorists and PETA-extremists are also God botherers.
""Just because you believe in evolution or are good at science doesn't make you any less crazy for believing in superstition."
So you're a shrink too?"
"Actually, I might be. You don't have much of an argument there. Believing in something that doesn't exist may be considered psychosis."
Interesting. Prove "it" doesn't exist.
Show all maths.
"If someone goes on a killing spree because a magic green tiger told them to, everyone would agree that they need medications. If someone goes on a killing spree because God told them to kill gay people, lots of people wouldn't think that person is insane."
Yup. And if someone starves half his country to death in an effort to enforce some bizarre form of a communist doctrine, he's also insane.
Is this really the best you can do? I agree that people who perpetrate murder for any reason, religious, political, etc. are insane.
"The rest of your argument misses my point. I'm saying that when there are a lot of people who believe in something irrational there's a lot of potential for someone acting upon those irrational beliefs (say, like religious extremists do). Just because it didn't happen in WWII doesn't mean that a Jew don't have the potential of one day (i.e. assassinating Rabin) being a religious extremist."
Prove you don't have such potential.
I figure I really don't need to respond to this, as it is really quite silly. When you can demonstrate that atheism provides some magic bullet against extreme behavior, get back to me. This particular paragraph really bothers me. It borders on paranoia.
"I don't really know of any examples of an atheist killing people simply because they don't believe in god (sure there are athests that have killed people, but it wasn't because of some deep non-belief in god that they had)."
I see. The difference is, is that when an atheist commits an act of violence, its for a better reason.
"You're just suffering from a common symptom that religious people have. It's okay to call other people names, but when you talk about my religion, I'm offended."
I'm sorry. Did I call other people names? Please point that out. And if you can't please be a gentlemen and retract your remarks.
In fact ask PZ to retract your post. Its embarrassing. Even to other atheists.
Posted by: Stuart Weinstein | January 24, 2008 1:30 AM
hey, leave judaism out of it. Mentioning it in context with the other two ignores the fact that they are ripoffs in every sense imaginable.
Oh, Puhleeeeze. Make fun of the other guys' woo-woo but be nice to judaism because... what?
Judaism is a bunch of ridiculous bollocks just like every other religion. The fact that other religions ripped off from it doesn't make it "better" it just makes it "more influential stupid."
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | January 24, 2008 1:37 AM
Afghanistan is a medieval trash heap. Life expectancy is 47 years, while the USA is now 78 years. Running water and electricity are rare. Violent death is common. But they are very religious.
The two are closely linked. The Talibanis and Talibani clones seem to wallow in their ignorance and have no real motivation or interest in joining us in the 21st century.
It is the same with the American Talibani in the south central USA. For all their fundie cultist nonsense, fundie states have higher levels of poverty, child poverty, social problems like teen pregnancy and divorce, and lower education levels. These facts don't faze them in the least. They just wallow in their ignorance, while chanting god this and god that and talking about family values.
No one would care except they want to impose their ignorance on the rest of us with their silly theocracy. The Xian fundies can look at Afghanistan and say, Moslems suck and then turn around and try to impose the same thousands of years old defective system on us. They just might succeed.
Posted by: raven | January 24, 2008 1:41 AM
It seems to me that the major reason that most American Jews are viewed as being less anti-reality than other religious folk is because they don't take their religion seriously.
Revisionist fucktard. What about claiming that the great sky daddy gave your people an eternal real estate grant, and then trying to enforce it in the modern era politically and militarily, is "not taking it seriously"??
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | January 24, 2008 1:43 AM
The two are closely linked.
Yes, they are. Are you trying to claim that the state of their country is caused by their religion, because it seems just as likely the other way around. People get less religious the richer and more educated they get and if we want to get rid of all the crap that is happening in places like Afghanistan we need to actually do something besides bomb them and tell them they are stupid for being religious.
Posted by: coathangrrr | January 24, 2008 1:54 AM
"It seems to me that the major reason that most American Jews are viewed as being less anti-reality than other religious folk is because they don't take their religion seriously.
Revisionist fucktard. What about claiming that the great sky daddy gave your people an eternal real estate grant, and then trying to enforce it in the modern era politically and militarily, is "not taking it seriously"??
The revisionist "fucktard" here is you. Elder statesmen at the time of modern Isreal's founding like Ben Gurion, were atheists. In fact Herzl wasn't particularly religious either. He was your basic secular Jew living the enlightenment dream or so he thought.
His vision of Israel was a modern state that was a cooperative where science and technology were at the forefront. It was his vision of a socialist utopia. Not a religious state at all or because God gave it to the Jews or whatever.
The movement to reconstitute the state of Israel, wasn't due to religious fervor, but rather the need to get the fuck out of Europe.
And whether God gave that parcel of land to the Jews or not doesn't really matter to me or the vast majority of Jews. Simple fact is we have a three thousand year history there, and we are not willing to accept dhimmi status in an Arab state.
Posted by: Stuart Weinstein | January 24, 2008 2:15 AM
"Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom."
See? The Islamic courts are just protecting freedom. Apparently.
Posted by: Sigmund | January 24, 2008 2:24 AM
Oh goody, we get to talk about Israel. I'm sure this will go well.
Posted by: coathangrrr | January 24, 2008 2:27 AM
"Oh goody, we get to talk about Israel. I'm sure this will go well."
So long as the conversation doesn't get hijacked by ignoramuses calling other people "fucktards".
Posted by: Stuart Weinstein | January 24, 2008 2:36 AM
Stuart Weinstein - just a statement. I'm an old time RC bred atheist. Grew up around Jews too though. A neighborhood thing. Frankly I think the American Jew (only ones I know well) is pretty pretty cool. Intelligent, generous, fun, thoughtful, tolerant and liberal. I also think the religious philosophical view I understood from them was not bad, and indeed sound philophy and psychology in many respects. And I am very proud that my people (Italians in Italy) risked their lives to save Jews from Germans in WWII. I am no Jew hater.
That doesn't alter the fact that think religion is dangerous. All types. It provides a base and justification for and fosters all types of weird shit. The tolerant Jew I love throws fire from their eyes if I mention Isreal may be a little unfair, for example. The people above are not getting on the Jews. They are just (in my mind) justly cast the net around all woo woo based things and saying all of it is unnecessary but worse a base for extremism. Religions are dangerous period. However the mostly secular culture and goodness of people (of say my Italian RC and American Jew friends) are not the issue.
Accept the fact that many of us here see religion for what we think it is as an institutional thing: a reason and motivation for crazy tribesmanship and deleterious actions. We know most people who claim religion are not bad people. I might add that I believe any sane and modern knowledgeable person really believs more in the culture than the woo woo. But that's another topic.
Posted by: ConcernedJoe | January 24, 2008 2:47 AM
"Stuart Weinstein - just a statement. I'm an old time RC bred atheist. Grew up around Jews too though. A neighborhood thing. Frankly I think the American Jew (only ones I know well) is pretty pretty cool. Intelligent, generous, fun, thoughtful, tolerant and liberal. I also think the religious philosophical view I understood from them was not bad, and indeed sound philophy and psychology in many respects. And I am very proud that my people (Italians in Italy) risked their lives to save Jews from Germans in WWII. I am no Jew hater. That doesn't alter the fact that think religion is dangerous. All types. It provides a base and justification for and fosters all types of weird shit."
Lots of ideas and things can become dangerous or used for purposes for which they were not intended. Such is the human condition.
"The tolerant Jew I love throws fire from their eyes if I mention Isreal may be a little unfair, for example. The people above are not getting on the Jews. They are just (in my mind) justly cast the net around all woo woo based things and saying all of it is unnecessary but worse a base for extremism."
I agree. My point is, is that I don't see atheism as some sort
of innoculation against extremism. That's a utopian fantasy doomed to failure just like any other utopian fantsay.
"Religions are dangerous period."
They can be. So can animal rights activists. Just about any cause or ideology taken to far can be dangerous.
"However the mostly secular culture and goodness of people (of say my Italian RC and American Jew friends) are not the issue.
Accept the fact that many of us here see religion for what we think it is as an institutional thing: a reason and motivation for crazy tribesmanship and deleterious actions"
Again, just about any ideology, religious, nationalist, etc. can be a motivation for deleterious actions.
"We know most people who claim religion are not bad people."
I think quite the same of militant atheists.
"I might add that I believe any sane and modern knowledgeable person really believs more in the culture than the woo woo. But that's another topic."
Indeed.
Posted by: Stuart Weinstein | January 24, 2008 3:09 AM
Here we go with Stuart Weinstein "educating" us into his Israeli nationalism. You claim that all of Israel belongs to Israelis because they have been in what is modern day Israel for thousands of years? The sheer fact is very few Jews today can trace their origins in Israel past 200 years. Mostly resettlement from the Ottoman Empire. Many of the Israelis are either European Jews or Sephardic, hardly resembling the Mediterranean people of ancient Israel. In fact, it is the Palestinians that are more closely related to the Jews of Biblical times then modern day Israelis. Regardless, the battle of my land over yours is just as stupid as my omnipotent deity over your omnipotent deity. Although the early founders of modern Israel were secular, and mostly none-religious, that does not mean that our criticism of Judaism is misplaced. Any person who's willing to support irrational notions should be held to the magnifying glass of reason.
Remember that nationalism is not far from religion in terms of the extremist sentiment it tends to spread. Basically, both are beliefs that were indoctrinated from birth, and although certain aspects of cultural value homogeneity are important, for the most part, nationalism is completely overrated.
The difficutly here is that it's hard to dissociate Judaism the religion from Judaism the culture. We're not attacking your cultural values SW, but attacking the religion, just as we do all others. Although nationalism does tend to play a role in the culture, it should remain free of extremist elements. Blockading and constantly bombing the hell out of palestinian villages to me seems a bit excessive when you're trying to attempt to maintain some semblance of peace in the region. Israel, and Judaism are not above reproach or criticism. Censorship in this regard is wrong, because criticizing a religion or country is not racist (don't pull the anti-semitism card here), because we don't hold ill will towards those who for example criticize Saudi Arabia and Islam in the same light. As people who are invested individuals in world politics, believe in freedom, liberty, secularism, and atheism, we must be willing to continuously question and criticize. Our purpose is definitely not racism, but a movement towards rationality, peaceful thought, and a reduction in extremism (which as mentioned earlier is not just a product of religion but also nationalism).
Posted by: Helioprogenus | January 24, 2008 3:45 AM
Sorry, this is also off topic on Heath Ledger, but have you seen this?
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/pspauld/BlogPix/heathphelps.jpg
Posted by: Kobus | January 24, 2008 4:05 AM
"Here we go with Stuart Weinstein "educating" us into his Israeli nationalism."
I'm an American. Daddy fought in WW2. When he was 16.
Uncles were in Korea.
"You claim that all of Israel belongs to Israelis because they have been in what is modern day Israel for thousands of years? The sheer fact is very few Jews today can trace their origins in Israel past 200 years."
It has been the goal of just about every anti-semite in the last 500 years to cast aspersions on the middle eastern origins of the Jews of the time. Perhaps in your case, its just ignorance. Or perhaps you revel being on the same level as Arafat.
I tell you, This making bullshit up about a person you don't know can be fun.
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/pnas;97/12/6769
Read that, then I'll deal with the rest of your post. First correct your errors.
Stuart
Posted by: Stuart Weinstein | January 24, 2008 4:14 AM
Anybody can be nuts. If you had a point, I think you forgotten it. I suppose Eco-terrorists and PETA-extremists are also God botherers
You ignore the fact that the extremists of both sorts exhibit exactly the same symptoms that god botherers do: a slavish devotion to dogma. The only dogmas I have are that I do not believe in god and that the scientific method offers the best route to reliable knowledge about the universe, including us.
Would I kill people for those? no. I have been told in the past to check under my car in the mornings for 'suspicious devices' animal rights freaks might have placed there, everyone at my institute was but I lived locally and was easy