…and this is a 
The work of the devil
Category: Weirdness
Posted on: January 28, 2008 1:00 PM, by PZ Myers
It's a strange, weird world out there. I get hate mail all the time, but you know me — I'm mean and cruel and I don't hesitate to pull out the sharp, sharp knives of unkind rhetoric. Other people get hate mail, too, and here's one that made me laugh and laugh (which is also really mean, since I'm not the recipient.)
You people are going to ruin your little daughter and make her burn in hell like the two of you. You think you are clever and so does the devil. Only God has the answer for you. God or G. Bush.
That last line is a real laugh-getter — some people have problems distinguishing god from Bush, and I'm not talking about Moses — but there's more. What did this horrible person and his child do to deserve such damnation? Is he a militant atheist? A commie pinko Kucinich supporter? I don't know; maybe, but it's not apparent from the blog. The blog has a theme.
It's about vegan parenting.
Oh, man, when George W. Bush discovers that people actually post vegetarian recipes on a blog, he is probably going to send Chuck Norris over to kick their asses and slap 'em around with a side of beef. I'm just relieved that I've never posted my old recipe for miso soup here, or I'd really be in trouble — I'd be posting from Gitmo in between waterboarding sessions, or dodging lightning bolts from heaven.
Comments
I'm betting the poster was barely literate. They probably thought it was about "Pagan Parenting".
Whenever I see someone living with so much hatred that they cannot contain it and have to spread it like manure, I think of this. I believe I came up with it myself:
People often say, "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist". If the Devil is such a smart guy, wouldn't the greatest trick he could pull be convincing the world he was God?
Of course, since I believe in neither, it becomes but a though-experiment.
Posted by: Frac | January 28, 2008 1:16 PM
Only God has the answer for you. God or G. Bush.
That's a lot of stupid.
Posted by: MAJeff | January 28, 2008 1:19 PM
Religion is mental illness.
Posted by: Martin | January 28, 2008 1:22 PM
You people are going to ruin your little daughter and make her burn in hell like the two of you.
Good thing God judges people on their own merits, not the sins of their fathers.
Ugh. The only reasoned response to someone like this is a potato in the tailpipe and an enclosed garage.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 28, 2008 1:26 PM
My guess on that would be that the bible commands humanity to have dominion over the animals. I guess dominion includes eating that over which you have dominion. But doesn't christianity also teach that man has dominion over his wife (cunnilingus?) and over his children (just, um, yikes!)?
At my house, things have gotten strange. My 15 year old daughter is now a vegetarian. Cook 2 meals at once. My wife has just been diagnosed with coeliac disease. Cook 3 meals at once. I guess vegan could start to make sense, as long as it is wheat-free (which means no TVP).
Posted by: Billy | January 28, 2008 1:30 PM
Well, you know, us vegans eat our young. Didn't you know that? (That is how we get our protein).
Just wanted to post and say how much I am enjoying this website, which I discovered yesterday via a feminist forum I am on.
Posted by: Monika | January 28, 2008 1:50 PM
My guess: firstly, for many (but not all) vegans, their diet is an ethical choice - but it's an ethic which owes nothing to the bible, and is therefore EVUL. Secondly, vegetarianism and veganism are commonly associated with left-of-centre politics: I don't know how accurate this perception is, but I think it's widely believed to be true - so these vegan parents are bound to be EVUL in all sorts of ways.
Remember, tofu is Satan's smegma.
Posted by: Moggie | January 28, 2008 1:51 PM
The last line gives it away. It's a joke. Has to be.
Posted by: Mike P | January 28, 2008 1:58 PM
But wasn't Hitler a vegetarian? And (despite recent 'books') isn't fascism conservatism carried to its illogical extreme?
Don't shoot me, just asking.
Posted by: Billy | January 28, 2008 1:58 PM
There are certainly legitimate concerns with such dietary stances. This idiot has not raised one. *lights a match* let's see if the stupid really burns... ;/
Posted by: Azkyroth | January 28, 2008 2:07 PM
If we all sit around eating lard-free biscuits and miso soup, how is god (or GW) supposed to slake his thirst for blood?
You filthy hippie vegans just don't understand god's plan for you as revealed in the prosperity gospel.
Actually, now that i think of it, GW is not god. Bacon is.
Posted by: ennui | January 28, 2008 2:12 PM
The last line gives it away. It's a joke. Has to be.
If so, then a substantial proportion of American voters have perpetuated an eight year joke to the detriment of themselves (and the rest of the world.)
And the rest of us aren't laughing.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 28, 2008 2:23 PM
re: Hitler's vegetarianism.
That's up to debate. I've heard that the reason his diet was so lean on meat was due to his doctor's recommendation. Reportedly, one of his favorite dishes was stuffed squab.
Of course, I read that on a vegetarian website, so my source was probably biased, but then again the whenever I see that factoid, it has no evidence backing it.
Posted by: Karley | January 28, 2008 2:27 PM
Y'know what's great? Researching before I post a comment. Apparently he did espouse a vegetarian diet, even if he didn't stick to it all the time. My bad.
Posted by: Karley | January 28, 2008 2:32 PM
Az, RE: concerns over veganism
I would definitely differentiate between vegan diets and child abuse. Vegan diets of themselves are not a problem. Feeding your children in a way that keeps them malnourished, giving them unnecessary enemas, and whipping them (all of which are abuse) are what was happening in the situation you quote.
Abusive parents can be omnivores, vegetarian, or vegan; it isn't the diet in question but rather, how the parents treat their children. Does that make sense?
As for feeding your child breast milk - that is perfectly vegan (as is mentioned on the linked website).
Monika, the plump and healthy vegan
Posted by: Monika | January 28, 2008 2:35 PM
Frac (#1) - when I mentioned that I was toying with vegetarianism some years ago, my grandfather, a Baptist preacher, was furious. "It's not what enters a man's mouth, but what comes out that condemns him!" he thundered. Some verse or other... also, as has been pointed out, vegetarianism in the US is associated with hippies and worse, its ethical stance is not biblically derived.
Yeah, the post PZ saw is probably genuine. I can affirm that it's a genuine attitude, anyway. I haven't been theist for over four decades now, partly because of the insanity I saw up close and personal throughout my childhood. And I eat animals...
Posted by: Kermit | January 28, 2008 2:41 PM
So, PZ... The miso soup recipe? Pretty please?
Posted by: Rich | January 28, 2008 2:45 PM
Sorry Monika, but denying a child a life time of eating bacon is child abuse of the worst sort :0) Mmmmm bacon....
Posted by: davem | January 28, 2008 2:51 PM
Billy, I was just reading about a meat substitute that should be acceptable to both your daughter and your wife. it's called "Soy Curls" and it's endorsed by (awesome) vegan cookbook author Bryanna Clark Grogan. This stuff does an amazing job of standing in for chicken, and it's 100% soy (no wheat, though you would want to write the company to make dead certain).
Write me if you have any other questions about what recipes might be acceptable to your family. I bought all the cookbooks. :)
Posted by: speedwell | January 28, 2008 2:55 PM
OK, vegan bacon lovers... I use this stuff called "Bacon Salt" and it works tremendously well... link here: http://www.baconsalt.com/ A little goes a long way. I use it in beans, greens, and chowders, and I put it on fresh corn.
Posted by: speedwell | January 28, 2008 2:59 PM
LOL Davem. Can't say I miss bacon, actually. But I do miss DQ Blizzards (go figure!)
I figure kids will try meat (and dairy and eggs) at school, at their friend's homes (etc). I don't trust myself to cook meat for anyone. (I tried to cook a chicken for someone I worked with, and with my paranoia re: salmonella, I think I overdid it. A lot.) I will stick with the vegan cooking!
Posted by: Monika | January 28, 2008 3:01 PM
Moggie (#7) got it exactly right:
1) Vegan=liberal=depraved, and
2) The devoutly religious are often pretty perplexed by ethical choices that aren't based in their religious or social traditions. It's reminiscent of one of my parents' many objections to my vegan diet (though they phrased it much more reasonably and literately than the above email). Namely, what basis could such "made up" rules possibly have? Our religious/social traditions already tell us what's right and wrong, so why bother going further? There's just no reason for it. With tradition, you know exactly where you stand; start thinking for yourself, and you open the door to temptation, depravity, social ostracization, and that dreadful scourge, uncertainty.
Posted by: carex | January 28, 2008 3:01 PM
I did a little googling and found that there is support for vegetarianism in the Bible.
Not that it matters to me, as I am neither vegetarian nor a theist. There may be a silver lining in biblical literalism, however. Eventually, the political pendulum in North America will swing back toward respect for reason and rationality, and intelligence will once again guide our politicians. Since this will exclude the majority of fundies, we'll be said to have dominion over them as well as every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
I anticipate that corn-fed Southern Baptists, when prepared right, will be more succulent (and ethical to eat) than foie gras. And just think of the rich, smoked-in flavour of the rednecks in tobacco-producing regions. Homeschoolers' heads (emptied of their atrophied brains, of course) will be positively delectable when filled with walnut-rosemary stuffing and simmered in Bible Belt broth.
Dear Lord, we thank thee for thy bounteous fruits of thy latest 'tard harvest. And lead us not to indigestion, especially from that fat one we caught while he was filling up his H2. In Jesus' tummy's name, Amen.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 28, 2008 3:04 PM
Yeah, PZ, make with the miso soup recipe already. What are you, chicken?
/me ducks behind the nearest vegan for cover.
Posted by: BruceH | January 28, 2008 3:08 PM
Miso soup, traditionally, is not vegetarian. The basic stock is dashi, which is made from katsuobushi, a form of dried, preserved tuna.
Posted by: Xerxes1729 | January 28, 2008 3:08 PM
speedwell: thanks. Of course up here in the wilds of Scranton it may be hard to find.
Posted by: BIlly | January 28, 2008 3:11 PM
Texans eat more beef briskit per capita than residents of any other state. So there!
Posted by: Jim Thomerson | January 28, 2008 3:13 PM
I don't understand the Christian objection to vegetarianism, since every creature in the Garden of Eden prior to the Fall was vegetarian (hence the Creation Museum claiming that T. Rexes used their teeth to crack coconuts). Given that meat eating was the result of sin (just like disease and pain in labour at childbirth), I would think that being vegetarian would be the desired state for Christians.
(There are also some Christian sects that are explicitly vegetarian, most notably the Seventh Day Adventists.)
Posted by: Tulse | January 28, 2008 3:20 PM
Miso is fairly easy to make. Start by boiling flakes of katsuobushi (usually found in Asian supermarkets under 'Dried Bonito Flakes') and kombu seaweed in a medium pot, and then strain out the broth. This is the dashi.
Remove a cup of the dashi and mix in a few tablespoons of miso paste once it has cooled somewhat, since you don't want to cook the miso.
If at this point you'd like to add other ingredients, like mushrooms, firm tofu cubes, and sliced green onion, put those in the dashi and let them simmer for a few moments. Then, take the dashi off the heat and pour in the miso/dashi combination. Serve.
I've experimented with vegetarian recipes that substitute mushrooms or other vegetables to flavour the stock, as well as dried pollack fillets when I couldn't get bonito. I'm no purist, so I advise tailoring the recipe to fit your tastes.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 28, 2008 3:22 PM
EVERY SINGLE TIME I mentioned my vegetarianism to members of my church, they would instantly reply that "Well, God gave us animals for us to eat," like what I was doing was somehow against God's will. I will certainly not miss that judgmental character.
Posted by: Syckls | January 28, 2008 3:27 PM
I wonder if the Christian antipathy toward vegetarianism is a holdover from Classical paganism. The Greeks and Romans tended to persecute vegetarian groups like the Orphists and Pythagoreans, along with Christians and Epicureans, because they did not participate in animal sacrifice.
Not participating in sacrifice was a grave sin, not so much because of not propitiating the gods or participating in the community, but because for most regular people in pagan society, animal sacrifice represented the only decent meal they would get to eat that week. If it were merely a question of religion, the Greeks and Romans would never have tolerated the Jews, but since the Jews also practiced sacrifice, they were okay.
That's the true symbolism of communion -- the bread and wine symbolize not the blood and body of Christ, but the actual chunks of bloody meat that would have been distributed to congregants following an animal sacrifice. So, vegetarians and other sects that rejected sacrifice weren't just worshiping the wrong gods or snubbing societal norms, they were taking food out of the mouths of hungry people.
It seems unlikely, but I wonder if this pagan antipathy toward vegetarianism survived, meme-like and divorced from its practical source, the Greek and Roman conversion to Christianity, and surfaces today among fundies?
Posted by: HP | January 28, 2008 3:34 PM
"Well, God gave us animals for us to eat"
Couldn't He, in all His infinite wisdom and power and glory, simply made inanimate bacon to grow on trees, steak to grow on bushes, and tuna salad to grow in the earth? Mmmm...
Posted by: Will E. | January 28, 2008 3:35 PM
and tuna salad to grow in the earth
Gross! How would you wash off the dirt without making the mayo all watery?
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 28, 2008 3:49 PM
No meat = No god.
I know that the meat industry is environmentally destructive, uses huge energy inputs to grow, and its fruits will some day stop my heart.
But after all of those Thanksgiving turkeys, Easter hams, and Christmas geese, how could I be so cruel to tell my dying grandmother that there is no bacon in heaven? How could I explain my transformation into a whiny wuss like Morrissey? How could I deprive my creator of the sweet savour of burnt offerings?
That just seems cruel.
Posted by: ennui | January 28, 2008 3:53 PM
The official Catholic position on vegetarianism was established at the Council of Ancyra in the 4th Century. The Council decreed that it was OK to abstain from meat for health reasons so long as you were willing to taste a little stew now and then to establish that your vegetarianism wasn't motivated by heretical beliefs.
Posted by: Jim Harrison | January 28, 2008 3:53 PM
Couldn't He, in all His infinite wisdom and power and glory, simply made inanimate bacon to grow on trees, steak to grow on bushes, and tuna salad to grow in the earth? Mmmm...
It'd be a hell of a lot more impressive than the bananas, I'll tell you!
Posted by: Eamon Knight | January 28, 2008 3:56 PM
How could I explain my transformation into a whiny wuss like Morrissey?
Oh, it's on, bitch!
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 28, 2008 4:00 PM
Feeding children a diet that does not meet their nutritional needs is extremely harmful and potentially fatal to a child. Vegan diets are one documented way in which parents may do this. Therefore, there is a legitimate concern. Failure to "differentiate between vegan diets and child abuse" is not a factor, and your statements here, while true, are completely orthogonal to my point.
Posted by: Azkyroth | January 28, 2008 4:00 PM
Just shot soy milk out my nose.
Posted by: ennui | January 28, 2008 4:01 PM
God didn't like bacon, though. I can imagine the revelation, somewhat like Mr. Deity:
"Take dominion over all the earth, and it is all yours to eat."
"Pssst...remember when you were just playing with some mud the other day and accidentally made Trichina?"
"Oh, right. Ok, you may eat everything but the pig!"
Posted by: Carlie | January 28, 2008 4:01 PM
This vegetarian really wishes there were bacon trees.
Posted by: Tusle | January 28, 2008 4:06 PM
Just wondering how well these diets work. The sickest people I've ever known have been vegan/vegetarian. Is there a reason for this or is it just trendies not eating a real diet?
Posted by: Mold | January 28, 2008 4:06 PM
As an earlier commenter mentioned, some interpretations of Christian scripture lead to an encouragement of vegetarianism, viz. Seventh Day Adventists.
Posted by: deang | January 28, 2008 4:07 PM
I consider vegan parenting to be negligent but not for any religious reasons.
Posted by: pablo | January 28, 2008 4:08 PM
and tuna salad to grow in the earth
kimchi isn't enough for you?
Posted by: MAJeff | January 28, 2008 4:19 PM
[blockquote]Just wondering how well these diets work. The sickest people I've ever known have been vegan/vegetarian. Is there a reason for this or is it just trendies not eating a real diet?[/blockquote]
Really? Since we are on random generalisations, I am going to assume you have high blood pressure.
Any problems with a vegan diet are usually the result of taking the standard american diet, and removing meat/dairy/eggs. If you go from a big mac and fries to a bun, lettuce, ketchup and fries, i think you are going to have a problem.
Vegetarian diets are widely documented to be better for you.
Posted by: zwa | January 28, 2008 4:20 PM
Just a couple of points i should have added:
A) I'm vegan (duh)
B) [blockquote]Position of the American Dietetic Association: Vegetarian Diets (1997)
Scientific data suggest positive relationships between a vegetarian diet and reduced risk for several chronic degenerative diseases and conditions, including obesity, coronary artery disease, hypertension, diabetes mellitus, and some types of cancer. Vegetarian diets, like all diets, need to be planned appropriately to be nutritionally adequate.
POSITION STATEMENT
It is the position of The American Dietetic Association (ADA) that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, are nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
[/blockquote]
Posted by: zwa | January 28, 2008 4:23 PM
Most studies I've seen of vegetarians suggests that they are generally healthier than the general population, especially in terms of major causes of death/disability (e.g., cancer, diabetes, heart disease). Of course, there are always exceptions (I'm vegetarian, but too fond of pizza and fries to be eating as healthily as a I should). And it is true that a vegan diet requires a lot more attention to nutrition than a standard vegetarian diet (and usually involves explicitly supplementing certain nutrients such as B12). Finally, my sense is that many young people, especially young women, use a "vegetarian" diet as a way to lose weight, and in some cases to mask eating disorders.
Posted by: Tulse | January 28, 2008 4:29 PM
Per the American Dietetic Association, well planned vegan diets are safe for people from infancy through adulthood.
I adopted a vegan diet because it's better for the environment, better for my health and kinder to animals. I didn't know trying to do the right thing and thinking about how my actions affect others was going to land me and my family in hell! Thanks for the tip, psycho Xtian!!
If people aren't thriving on a vegan or vegetarian diet, it is probably because they are not eating healthily. If all you eat is french fries and diet soda, yeah, that's technically vegan, but you are going to feel like crap. Drinking vodka tonics all day is vegan, too.
If you eat a balanced diet with lots of whole foods, beans, grains, fruit and vegetables you usually do just fine (true for vegans and non-vegans.) Personally, cutting animal products out of my life made me feel amazing, taught me how to be a really good cook, and lowered my cholesterol by 30 points. And if you think vegan food is all twigs and tofurky, check out this blog for example: www.veganyumyum.com
Thanks for posting that, PZ.
Posted by: Lillet | January 28, 2008 4:31 PM
Post your old miso soup recipe here.
Bob
Posted by: Bob Spencer | January 28, 2008 4:33 PM
[quote]And it is true that a vegan diet requires a lot more attention to nutrition than a standard vegetarian diet (and usually involves explicitly supplementing certain nutrients such as B12). Finally, my sense is that many young people, especially young women, use a "vegetarian" diet as a way to lose weight, and in some cases to mask eating disorders.[/quote]
One could suggest that a vegan diet requires the same level of attention to nutrition that every other diet [i]should[/i] have. And of course 'diet' is used as the 'group of things one eats' use, not 'i want to lose weight' use. People with eating disorders may also X. Lets ban doing X.
Posted by: zwa | January 28, 2008 4:36 PM
The worst part is that these nuts haven't even read the book they claim to be following.
Daniel 1:8-16 actually speaks of the benefits of veganism:
See? The bible says you will be healthier if you are a vegan! Proof positive that the bible is true! :)
Posted by: IanR | January 28, 2008 4:37 PM
If you eat a balanced diet with lots of whole foods, beans, grains, fruit and vegetables you usually do just fine (true for vegans and non-vegans.)
That's good advice for meat-eaters too (especially if you're prone to the occasional bout of hot wings and beer while watching the game at the pub.)
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 28, 2008 4:37 PM
Brownian (#29) -
Bonito flakes are dried fish. How does that fit with a vegan or vegetarian diet? Or did I get my wires crossed and you're not saying that it is?
Posted by: Frac | January 28, 2008 4:37 PM
Im going to give up trying to quote and style, but...
Kombu (a seaweed) is the traditional replacement for dashi/bonito in miso
Posted by: zwa | January 28, 2008 4:41 PM
zwa, you need to review your html. If you substitute "<" (the less-than arrow in case the character doesn't show up) for "[" and ">" (the greater-than arrow) for "]" you'll do fine.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 28, 2008 4:43 PM
there you go, proof positive vegan diets effect brain function.
Posted by: zwa | January 28, 2008 4:46 PM
Bonito flakes are dried fish. How does that fit with a vegan or vegetarian diet? Or did I get my wires crossed and you're not saying that it is?
You're right Frac, and the fault probably lies in my less-than clear post. No, traditional miso wouldn't fit within a vegan or vegetarian diet (though some veges will eat fish), but I posted the recipe since it was asked for.
However, the miso paste itself is vegetarian-friendly (though it is a fermented product, so you'll have to read the ingredients to see how it fits within any dietary restrictions), and I've found it goes well with most light broths, so feel free to substitute the daishi with a vegetarian or vegan broth to your liking.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 28, 2008 4:51 PM
All this talk about miso reminds me that I should see if there's any at the store on the way home from work. It's been awhile since I made it, and now I'm craving some.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 28, 2008 4:54 PM
I'm just really confused at this point. I grew up in a very strict Seventh-Day Adventist home. We were vegetarian, of course, since it's a church doctrine sorta thing. I left that along with everything else in that conservative clusterfuck of a church long ago. Now I'm hearing that being a vegetarian is a liberal anti-god sort of thing to do? What am I supposed to eat now?
Posted by: Dahan | January 28, 2008 4:57 PM
Stick to liquor, Dahan. You can't go wrong with booze.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | January 28, 2008 4:59 PM
zwa:
I'm vegetarian myself, and not vegan only because I like appropriate discipline (and really like cheese), so my post wasn't meant to be hostile. That said, I do think that, generally speaking, more care needs to be taken with a vegan diet than omnivorous or lacto-ovo-vegetarian, precisely because certain specific nutrients are not (easily) available from common vegan foods. Inattention to one's diet when vegan can have more serious consequences than in most other cases. At the very least, it is better known how to eat properly as an omnivore and lacto-ovo-vegetarian, even if that is observed more in the breach.
That's not to say that veganism is evil or should be banned, just that it means people need to eat more thoughtfully when vegan.
Posted by: Tulse | January 28, 2008 5:04 PM
Um, that should be "lack appropriate discipline", not "like appropriate discipline"...not that there's anything wrong with that...
Posted by: Tulse | January 28, 2008 5:08 PM
I use a dashi made with both kombu and shiitake mushrooms. If you have neither, you can use porcini. If you don't have that, a pinch of garlic powder, a pinch of sugar, and a pinch of red pepper flakes works for me. I made my miso soup this morning out of the pot liquor from stewing beet greens. Miso soup is the ultimate in flexible.
Billy, both those things I mentioned are available online.
Posted by: speedwell | January 28, 2008 5:09 PM
Aaaahhhh... booze. Well said. As long as it's not communion related.
Posted by: Dahan | January 28, 2008 5:10 PM
Thanks zwa. I will also testify that veganism can be delicious and healthy, but it does require some conscious planning in the beginning while one develops new eating habits. Teenagers are the most vulnerable, since they are rarely self-educated in nutrition, and usually dependent upon their parents for meals. Omnivorous parents are rarely enthusiastic about learning new recipes at the request of dependent offspring, who in many cases are asking for the family's traditions to be partially reworked.
I'm approaching two decades of veganism now, but I might have defaulted to "lettuce and fries" and then returned to meat-eating if my parents had not been both skeptical and supportive of my choice when I was living under their roof. They looked into nutrition and insisted I do the same.
I don't know any long-term vegans who are unhealthy. I don't get sick as often as many people I know, but I have always had a strong immune system and I don't think this has much to do with being vegan.
Posted by: Grammar RWA | January 28, 2008 5:10 PM
Ian @52,
Proof positive that the bible is true!
Or at least, proof positive that Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were Liberal Fascists.
Posted by: Mrs Tilton | January 28, 2008 5:13 PM
It really isnt hard to do.
Posted by: zwa | January 28, 2008 5:15 PM
What font does Pharyngula use in the posts?
Posted by: geneflow | January 28, 2008 5:17 PM
Thanks for the link, Lillet (#49). I'm a meat-eater, but the food at veganyumyum.com looks delicious (though the great photography helps ;-)
Posted by: MH | January 28, 2008 5:20 PM
[Homer Simpson]mmmmmmm, intelligently designed bacon. gaaaahhhh
Posted by: Larry | January 28, 2008 5:20 PM
Most of the sickliest people I know are vegan too, but I know healthy vegans as well. A vegan diet by it's nature leads to deficiency in certain nutrients (especially B12), but if care is taken to deal with that, then it's perfectly healthy.
It may be justifiable to call vegan parents who don't make sure their kids get a balanced diet abusive, but no more so than parents who allow their kids to consume a diet of only McDonald's and Little Debbie.
Posted by: JT | January 28, 2008 5:31 PM
If the bacon tree is the result of evolution, and not Cdesign proponentsistism, then why are there still trees and bacon?
Posted by: ennui | January 28, 2008 5:42 PM
First, you want to use the HTML <blockquote> and </blockquote> tags.
Second, while I agree with you about attention to nutrition, does your diet include multiple daily servings of crack?! No one suggested "banning" anything, ffs.
Posted by: Azkyroth | January 28, 2008 5:44 PM
I think it's a lot simpler than that. Christianity, like all religions, is a pedestal for placing the status quo above question. Patriarchal cultures make a big deal of "real men". You have to be a real man, or if you're a woman, you have to marry a real man and do what he says. Real men kill and eat animals, and bring home the bacon, etc.
If you don't eat animals, and you don't make sufficient apologies for this choice (citing health necessities that implicitly acknowledge you are not a real man), then you not giving proper deference to patriarchy and its institutions, including Christianity. It follows that veganism is anti-Christian. Christians don't have to be so paranoid and reactionary about this, but what's a patriarchal institution without constant anxiety about emasculation?
Posted by: Grammar RWA | January 28, 2008 5:48 PM
So, bacon = sausage ?
Posted by: ennui | January 28, 2008 5:55 PM
As an earlier commenter mentioned, some interpretations of Christian scripture lead to an encouragement of vegetarianism, viz. Seventh Day Adventists.
As a former SDA who seconds #60's having left that "conservative clusterfuck of a church", I'd like to clarify the record that while vegetarianism is part of church dogma, it's based on the church's "profit, excuse me, prophet" Ellen G. White rather than on the Bible. She was given visions that said that we didn't need to eat meat, and would be healthier if we didn't. In practice - not so much with the healthier, given that the average SDA takes over-processed veggie-meat, deep-fries it, and then slaps it on bread with a ton of condiments. At least in my experience . . . .
Posted by: jenl1625 | January 28, 2008 5:55 PM
#49: "Drinking vodka tonics all day is vegan, too."
In college, a friend of mine and I came up with a orange juice, vodka, and multivitamin "writer's diet" that I've always wanted to try but just haven't gone quite mad enough to go through with it. It's vegan too! (Hmm..may have to throw in a Red Bull for more B vitamins...)
Posted by: Jason W | January 28, 2008 6:21 PM
"Take drink, this is my blood"?
Say, how about some nice Rocky Mountain Oysters?
Posted by: Owlmirror | January 28, 2008 6:30 PM
Thank you all for your insights and I apologize for anecdote use but I had always wondered about the vegan/vegetarian downtime from sickness. As an "evil" omnivore, I had far less illness and response severity when it struck.
From the comments I can hypothesize the dieters were more concerned with appearances and social standing than food or nutrition.
By the way, this group also had the most strenuous arguments over who was the most "pacifist".
Posted by: Mold | January 28, 2008 6:33 PM
Many moons ago I read a tongue in cheek scientific paper about how you could get all the required daily nutrients and vitamins the body needed from drinking 32 pints of Guiness a day. Naturally as studetns we tried to emulate this but passed out somewhere around the 19th pint at 4 in the afternoon. Who said science couldn't be fun?
Posted by: Bride of Shrek | January 28, 2008 6:36 PM
But that doesn't work, based on the "all the more for us" response to vegetarianism that is really the only rational one.
No, I suspect that religion and sacrifice make more sense in that situation. Don't want to piss off the gods.
I suspect that the Greeks and the Romans were OK with Judaism because of religious superstition: Hey, what if the Jewish god were the real one? Yeah, don't want to piss off that one; he's almost as grumpy as Zeus; maybe even a little more.
Or something like that.
Posted by: Owlmirror | January 28, 2008 6:37 PM
Correction, I've found the old reference in New Scientist. It's actually 48 pints, two glasses of milk and a glass of orange juice to get all you need. However, the lack of fibre is a problem that can lead to colo-rectal cancers etc but I'm guessing on 48 pints of Guiness a day you don't really give a shit (excuse the pun but anal humour is always fun).
Posted by: Bride of Shrek | January 28, 2008 6:48 PM
The sickest people I've known have all tried every combination of eating or not eating meat, fat, carbs, wheat, soy, corn syrup, live toads, or machine shop waste, basically because their doctors can't fix them and they want SOMETHING to make them feel better.
In two cases that I know of, the person actually found something they were allergic to; in one other, it turned out to be parasitic worms that the docs hadn't checked for because "NOBODY gets those in the United States." The rest of 'em... well, they keep trying.
Posted by: mjfgates | January 28, 2008 7:19 PM
"Drinking vodka tonics all day is vegan, too."
Now you tell me!
Posted by: Greta Christina | January 28, 2008 7:22 PM
Oh, for fuck's sake, quit it. Stop chopping the world up into tribes and borders and imagining that everyone on the other side is your enemy. I'm vegan for moral reasons, and yes, that implies I think your choice is morally wrong. That doesn't mean I think you're "evil" or any other dichotomous dualist crap. Maybe a bit melodramatic, though. Get down off your cross.
Posted by: Grammar RWA | January 28, 2008 7:26 PM
I became a vegetarian when I began suffering the effects of long-term immunosuppression for liver transplant. Renal failure, liver failure, bloating, fatigue [death] all convinced me to try the vegan route. My lab numbers normalized within 2 weeks and my docs took me off the transplant list. Now, I'm vegetarian, not vegan but have stayed healthy for over 10 years for a total of 19 years post transplant. That's close to a record for liver transplants.
Naturally, I looked into the nutritional aspects and took care to eat correctly. You know, I AM a scientist, and nutrition isn't rocket science, just common sense.
The problem lies, of course in "pudding vegetarians" which is what we call those who eat no animal products, but live on chips and ice cream. Not healthy. But it's not the diet that's to blame, but the application.
I went to an Indian wedding, which was not vegetarian. In a case of adolescent rebellion, I saw two youngsters actually try the chicken when their mom wasn't looking. Sure beats dope or tobacco!
SG
Posted by: Science Goddess | January 28, 2008 7:27 PM
There's a lot of irony in that post. :)
Posted by: Moses | January 28, 2008 8:38 PM