…and this is a 
America: slouching towards the Enlightenment
Category: Godlessness • Religion
Posted on: February 25, 2008 11:48 PM, by PZ Myers
So…have you all read the latest Pew report on American religion? It's been reported in the NY Times, too, and I heard that it was the lead story on CBS News (which, unfortunately, said something about a "secular, morally empty America" — did anyone catch it, or better yet, record it?).
It's mostly good news. We've got a fragmented, shrinking Protestant population, Catholics are abandoning ship in droves and what's keeping it afloat is Catholic immigration from the south, and the "unaffiliateds" are growing fast, especially among young adults.
The survey finds that the number of people who say they are unaffiliated with any particular faith today (16.1%) is more than double the number who say they were not affiliated with any particular religion as children. Among Americans ages 18-29, one-in-four say they are not currently affiliated with any particular religion.
16.1% is still a minority, but keep in mind that Catholics are 24% of the population — we could pass them by in a few years. Look at that table on the right. We're huge (but not at all organized or unified, of course) and growing fast. It's worth looking at past assesments: in 1990, the nonreligious were about 7.5% of the population; in 2001, 13.2%; now, 16.1%.
The Pew people break down the "unaffiliateds" a bit more, and it looks like a significant number of them do still have considerable affection or perhaps dependency on religion — they just don't seem to like the existing sects. I suspect we can blame that not on the attraction of atheism, but the repulsion from overreaching, grasping American religion.
Like the other major groups, people who are unaffiliated with any particular religion (16.1%) also exhibit remarkable internal diversity. Although one-quarter of this group consists of those who describe themselves as either atheist or agnostic (1.6% and 2.4% of the adult population overall, respectively), the majority of the unaffiliated population (12.1% of the adult population overall) is made up of people who simply describe their religion as "nothing in particular." This group, in turn, is fairly evenly divided between the "secular unaffiliated," that is, those who say that religion is not important in their lives (6.3% of the adult population), and the "religious unaffiliated," that is, those who say that religion is either somewhat important or very important in their lives (5.8% of the overall adult population).
But don't try to argue that this "new" muscular atheism is driving people away. 1.6% self-identifying as atheists is a big leap forward: in 2001, that number was 0.4%.
It's not all good news, though, and this one point here is something we must address.
To illustrate this point, one need only look at the biggest gainer in this religious competition -- the unaffiliated group. People moving into the unaffiliated category outnumber those moving out of the unaffiliated group by more than a three-to-one margin. At the same time, however, a substantial number of people (nearly 4% of the overall adult population) say that as children they were unaffiliated with any particular religion but have since come to identify with a religious group. This means that more than half of people who were unaffiliated with any particular religion as a child now say that they are associated with a religious group. In short, the Landscape Survey shows that the unaffiliated population has grown despite having one of the lowest retention rates of all "religious" groups.
So we're growing fast, but our children have a significant chance of 'backsliding' into some religion later in life. I suspect that is a consequence of the fact that most non-religious households will not provide any specific training in beliefs (I know I didn't!) and godlessness is often presented as simple disbelief without a body of associated positive values. We need to change that.
Although there is also an alternative interpretation: how often have you heard the theistic testimonial that begins "Once I was an atheist…"? It's practically a cliche. Another possibility is that a lot of born-agains will report their childhood as being unaffiliated with any religion, when what they really mean is that there was religion, it was just less fervent than their current zealotry. I'm not entirely convinced that the supposed low retention rate is real.
Anyway, we have something to feel good about — the trends are running towards a return to a more secular America, although obviously we have a ways to go yet. And of course, when the Rapture comes and all the charismafundagelical loonies vanish in a puff of incense, we'll have an even greater forward lurch in the percentages.
Politics
Comments
We need the knock down that Christian number a bit.... I hope it's at 50% by 2010.
Posted by: King of Ferrets | February 26, 2008 12:08 AM
So much for this commentator who said that "Within us all there is a God-shaped vacuum"!
Posted by: Reynold | February 26, 2008 12:08 AM
Stanley Fish is really the only man capable of empirically verifying this report.
Posted by: danley | February 26, 2008 12:19 AM
Posted by: H. Humbert | February 26, 2008 12:23 AM
It's also amusing to see that the percentage of divorced evangelicals (13%) is higher than that for atheists and agnostics (both 10%), as evident in this table. Just who is violating the sanctity of marriage?
Posted by: Tulse | February 26, 2008 12:24 AM
Tulse, I wouldn't put too much stock in those numbers. First: A percentage of Evangelicals will of course say that they divorced before they came to the big guy. Second: It's pretty common for some divorced people to turn to a church after their divorce. In fact, a lot of these feel-good evangelical churches actively seek divorced/widowed people. They advertise heavily on various radio stations (at least here in Texas). You'll hear a, "Divorced? Feel like you're all alone? Come to the Lord's Circle if Holy Fire Church, and we'll give you love everlasting." That's not the exact wording, of course, but it's the gist of it.
It works on a disturbing number of people when they are the most vulnerable to such a message.
Posted by: Aquaria | February 26, 2008 12:34 AM
It's only a year or so ago that I started to self (and more importantly in this case, publicly) identify as an atheist, but I certainly was before. And I can think of a fair number of people in my larger circle who don't believe but as of yet don't or can't admit it. So that 1.6% seems low.
Unless of course the fact that I'm Canadian changes things up, since things are different in these parts.
D
Posted by: Derryl Murphy | February 26, 2008 12:34 AM
Actually only 10.3% - not 16.1% - because 5.8% of the "unaffiliated" people were "religious unaffiliated".
Posted by: Anon Ymous | February 26, 2008 12:39 AM
If we could just get rid of Josh Turner. Then we'd be bumped up to at least 19%.
Posted by: danley | February 26, 2008 12:42 AM
I find the sentiment "Within us all there is a Hoover-shaped vacuum" to be a little more compelling.
Posted by: Kseniya | February 26, 2008 12:45 AM
Immigration keeps theism alive in the West - Latin Americans in the US and Muslims in Europe. No use bellyaching about it. So we may as well get used to God-belief sticking around in the Western world for quite a while.
Posted by: Colugo | February 26, 2008 12:45 AM
Yikes. Dropped the headphones on the keyboard when I got up, and it hit the enter key. To finish the rest of the point, a lot of the divorced evangelicals who come to the big guy soon after a divorce don't stay very long with the faith. Once they're over the ugly, they move on. It's not true across the board, naturally, but it's true in enough of them to make the numbers seem a little different than they could be. My mother is one of those who got religion not long after her divorce. Now that she's remarried, you couldn't drag her to church.
Posted by: Aquaria | February 26, 2008 12:45 AM
If you want to see the CBS report, this link takes you to the CBS website that has it in the videos section:
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/eveningnews/main3420.shtml
The quote is, "... (the survey) answers many of the concerns about a secular, morally void America"
Posted by: brian | February 26, 2008 12:46 AM
That trend seems to be true in our household. Of our three children (my one, and my husband's two), we have two atheists/agnostics and one who has gone from her mother's Unitarian Church to join a Presbyterian Congregation. No matter how much her father and I tell her that it's all complete unsubstantiated nonsense.
Posted by: Laurie Soule | February 26, 2008 1:13 AM
50% by 2010? Get real. I'll be happy if it's 25% by 2050.
Posted by: James C. | February 26, 2008 1:22 AM
Botched that last comment. Still works... mostly. I need to think, then type.
Posted by: James C. | February 26, 2008 1:23 AM
Hang on--5.8% of the population say that religion is "somewhat important" or "very important" in their lives, and yet they can't pick one? The mind boggles.
Or does this group include the people who traditionally over-report their religious attendance in polls: the ones who have a vague association of religion with warm-fuzzy good things, but can't be bothered to waste their Sunday mornings (or whatever) actually attending a service?
Posted by: Sycorax | February 26, 2008 1:32 AM
I'll be happier if the secular percentage reaches 25 by 2050. This is America, after all.
Posted by: mona | February 26, 2008 1:34 AM
This kind of reminds me of the browser share statistics here: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0&qpmr=100&qpdt=1&qpct=3&qptimeframe=M
Internet Explorer = Christianity
Firefox = Unaffiliated
Internet Explorer, much like Christianity, sucks, and most people use it simply because it's what they're expected to use or because they don't want to change. Others deviate from the norm, and that number is increasing rapidly as time goes on and Firefox/not being affiliated with a religion becomes more common. :D
Posted by: Alex | February 26, 2008 1:38 AM
5,600,000 atheists, compared to 1.4 million in 2000.
I'd say we're growing. :-D
56,350,000 total unaffiliated. We're almost even with the fundamentalist christians. Perhaps that is the reason that they haven't taken over yet, Hmmm?
We need to take that 12.1% "nothing in particular" and convince them to answer atheist from now on!
yaya!
Posted by: genewitch | February 26, 2008 1:46 AM
Looking forward, I have recently had the experience of talking to children around age 10 who are all little believing protestants. I ask them why, and to tell me about their beliefs, and it dawns on me that they of course don't know anything else. Slow as I am, no news here. Best predictor for religious views is that of the parents, and all thats.
However, the interesting bit is how they look at me in bafflement when I tell them that I am atheist. "What's that?" "Then what do you believe?" "You're gonna go to hell." "What's Islam?". So I tell them a little about Islam, and I sense that something now dawns on them.
As kids become more and more exposed earlier in childhood to other ways of thinking (internet, better education, etc.?), we can hope that this discovery of context sows a seed that will lead to atheism later in life.
Posted by: Bjørn Østman | February 26, 2008 1:46 AM
I'm with Anon Ymous @#8 --- it's 10.3%, since the nutters in Westboro and their ilk probably come under that 5.8% "unaffiliated religious" and shouldn't be counted under the atheist/agnostic/secular/sane banner.
Not meaning to piss on your fire, but 1.6% is hardly a landslide for reason over woo: just keep up the quadrupling for a few more surveys and we/you are in business; I say "we" as an atheist and "you" as a non-American living in one of those godless heathen countries, riven by moral decay, where there's universal healthcare, social welfare, first-class free education up to university level, the lowest child/infant mortality in the World, a narrow poverty gap, and other unspeakable evils. We'll clearly have to stem the influence of Satan so we can have more income inequality, shootings, child poverty, government spying on the citizenry, and other precious freedoms that are the envy of the World.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | February 26, 2008 1:50 AM
I found this data interesting but couldn't find a pie chart, so I made one:
[img]http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/8154/religionkk1.jpg[/img]
It still looks a lot like the Pac-Man that is Christianity is eating us whole.
Posted by: UmmoSirius | February 26, 2008 1:52 AM
I've seen other surveys that show Wicca to be the fastest growing religion in the US, but neither it nor any other neo-pagan sect even registers on this survey. Either the study I saw was flawed or this one failed to reach at least one significant demographic.
Posted by: fyreflye | February 26, 2008 2:00 AM
when the Rapture comes and all the charismafundagelical loonies vanish in a puff of incense
vanish in a puff of incense?
well, that should freshen the air a bit.
er, if you like incense, that is.
I can't help but think there are better things they could vanish into a puff of.
meh, either way, I wish they'd just get on with it. I mean, the Heaven's Gate crowd lived up to their stated dates, why can't these idiots?
Posted by: Ichthyic | February 26, 2008 2:07 AM
My thoughts:
1. I don't believe percentages matter as much as either atheists, or the religious, would like to believe they do. (Here I depart from a large number of Christians, not only because my belief contravenes the almighty pursuit of Evangelism, but also because churches are not at all immune to the desires of business and livelihood.) If the people who remain in church are finding that they are growing deeper and more authentic in their faith, that is not necessarily a bad for the church. Similarly, if the growing number of uncommitteds simply don't give a fig about matters religious _or_ contrareligious, that ain't necessarily good for atheism. These newcomers are not the people with which you'll be able to build a firewall against the evangelicals. ;-)
2. Fluidity is a Very Good Thing, whether from one religious faith to another, or away/from religion. It suggests that not only are people responding to these issues, but that they have the freedom they need to pursue religious questions authentically.
3. Characterizing an adoption of religion later in life as 'backsliding' is going too far. Not all who seek are lost; not all religious inclinations defy reason (from my point of view). But I agree that atheist parents should not duck the issue of religion altogether--just as I wish fundamentalist parents would allow their children a full and honest exposure to science and critical thinking--even if those parents are incapable of allowing themselves the same.
Posted by: Eaux | February 26, 2008 2:31 AM
I am so glad to have grown up in a school system where I grew to know Jews, Catholics, Buddists, Hindus, Muslims, and many of my own Protestant(except that all non-Lutheran protestants were obviously going to Hell) denominations.
As early as the sixth grade I asked one of my Hindu friends if the term "God", in the pledge we were all required to stand in obiedience to, was in opposition to his beliefs, as it was offensive to me at the time that my friend should not be included in the "One Nation" which excluded polytheistic faiths. He said that it was, and that it was a thing which he chose to simply participate in, rather than admit that he was uncomfortable.
At the time (I haven't spoken him about this), he seemed to me, and I was a confirmed Christian, to be being forced to pledge himself (while not being strictly required, an American student seen to be not reciting the pledge, only standing in reverent silence, is on the short list for ass-kickings) to a theology not his own, under implicit threat of violence by his fellows, and the further threat of the disapproval of teachers and administrators.
There is still a clear threat to freedom of religion in America's schools.
If you are one of those who will excuse this as radicalism, imagine if I were to lead your child's class in a "morning confirmation" about higher powers giving us blessings and such. Imagine that your child was not required to say the words of the invocation, only to "stand reverently" as the invocation was read.
All good to you Christians out there?
What if I wore, every day, a pendant with a small, nearly unnoticible charm indicating my affiliation with the Church of Satan.
What if the vice-pricipal also wore this charm?
What if, and this is a long-shot, nearly every teacher in this school wore a Satanic charm on their necklaces?
Would the morning invocation still be an innocent appeal to "higher powers"?
No.
It would be as intolerable to a Christian to have his child stand reverently for an obviously Satanic (to the majority of the faculty, and thus, as undestood by the children, to the majority of those in power over them) incantation as it it for me to potentially have my child indoctrinated by the normality of theistic thought in secular and governmental institutions.
Posted by: autumn | February 26, 2008 2:36 AM
I wonder what the 1.6% figure for atheists means. So many questions! Does that mean the rest of them don't care enough to have looked up the definition of "atheist"? Are they uncomfortable with the definition? Do they feel alienated by the activists? Are most of those agnostics actually agnostics, or are they simply unaware/disagree that "atheist" does not imply certainty? Are they simply non-practicing folk? Are they materialists? Skeptics? "Spiritual but not religious" new agers?
Posted by: miller | February 26, 2008 2:46 AM
not all religious inclinations defy reason (from my point of view)
good thing you qualified that, though you might want to qualify it even further and say something like:
"Those who are religiously inclined don't necessarily INTEND to defy reason."
we have several regulars (one who even won a Molly - Scott Hatfield) who would certainly fit the bill of not intending to defy reason, and go so far as to work for the cause of reason, for the most part.
some of us remain unconvinced this isn't really a case of cognitive dissonance, but at least the intentions are honorable.
;)
Posted by: Ichthyic | February 26, 2008 2:47 AM
#17: I don't think it's that surprising. I've known a lot of people who just can't believe that the universe (or life, or humanity) came into being all on its own, but are still quite capable of seeing the gaping holes in the religious organizations around them. They remain unaffiliated, but are no less spiritual for all that.
Posted by: Brian | February 26, 2008 2:54 AM
Of course, this is of people who will answer the phone for surveys, so those like me who refuse to do so are totally unrepresented.
I would guess these numbers are most likely Wrong.
Posted by: donna | February 26, 2008 2:59 AM
And I was shocked that the only 1.7% are Jewish. But, I lived in NYC and Chicago and comparing that to where I am now, I guess it doesn't surprise me. Just like most my friends in big cities are agnostic/atheist. (Here in little NW town is the only place I've really known non-Catholic (and none of my friends actually practiced) xtians) I'm still getting over the shock that such a thing as a non-kosher hot dog exists.
Skewed perspective depending on where you live. Growing up in Chicago in my neighbourhood everyone was either Jewish or Catholic. *shrug*
Posted by: Lost Clown | February 26, 2008 3:06 AM
The trends always look nice. But I'm still disappointed at the paltry 1.6% in the atheist column. Come on guys, just go whole hog! Reject fairy tales! You'll be glad you did. I say this as a former agnostic who used to wonder if we could ever really know if God existed, and all that, and now thinks, "Why did I waste so much time hemming and hawing over all that? The very idea is patently absurd! Guy who's somehow bigger than the universe, yet is so commonly represented as mirroring us somehow? Come ON!"
Posted by: Rey Fox | February 26, 2008 3:18 AM
Tulse (comment #5), looking at the numbers in total, I would guess that the average evangelical is older than the average atheist, judging by the increased amount of "never married" atheists and agnostics (37% and 36% respectively vs 14% of evangelicals). I would say that this is promising news because it means that there are probably more atheists in the younger generations than in the older generations, and religious trends tend to be more generational than individual in nature
Posted by: Meng Bomin | February 26, 2008 3:24 AM
I completely agree with your assessment that it's not really the "new atheists" who are deconverting people so much as it is the religions are repelling people (especially the religious right) and then the "new atheists" gather them up.
Just this past weekend I went to lunch with the exmos of Switzerland. We had a guy visiting who was on a business trip from Utah County, Utah -- a lifelong Mormon who'd recently left the fold on his own after spending six months in Italy and discovering (to his astonishment) that the people there were good and happy without Mormonism. On this visit he was happily devouring his shiny new copy of The God Delusion. :D
Posted by: C. L. Hanson | February 26, 2008 3:26 AM
Autumn, it's sad that as a student, peer pressure makes kids compliant with the pledge 'under god'. Here in the satellite US state of Britain, (he he) , kids are not pressured to believe in any one religion in schools unless of course it is a faith school; there are people who moan about that of course, but I think it's better to learn about all religions equally, so that in later life you can make an informed choice (to not believe, hopefully).
I think it's a very blinkered attitude that kids who give 'reverential silence' will get ass kickings by their classmates, a very sad outcome IMO.
I would like to see this survey for europe...anyone know of a link?
Posted by: Monkey's Uncle | February 26, 2008 3:59 AM
Nah, don't wanna. After all, some religious inclinations actively do defy reason in one form or another, in subversive and sometimes (again IMO) useful ways. Cognitive dissonance is part of the fun. :-)
My point, though, is that there are many reasons one might choose a religious calling. Some of them might even be good--or at least, interesting--ones.
Posted by: Eaux | February 26, 2008 4:11 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_new_zealand#Statistics
Non-religious will hold the majority in New Zealand if trends continue, America has a long way to go. :)
Posted by: Slyer | February 26, 2008 4:17 AM
I wouldn't be too pessimistic about backsliders. This is a quote from Pew Research last year:
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/614/religion-social-issues
Look at the table at the top of the page. You'll see that pre-boomers have remained at around 4% non-religious over 20 years, boomers at around 10%, and Gen-X at 14% (over 10 years). Gen-Y was measured at 19% in that survey, so the trend is our friend, and given the constancy of the generational numbers over the years, it will be our friend for a long time to come.
But I don't think that we'll see the numbers in the USA that you see all over western Europe until America stops being such a conservative nation. Compared to most of Europe, politics in America is skewed way to the right. For all the talk of a 50-50 nation, if we measured ourselves using the political spectrum used elsewhere it would be more like a 30-70 split in favor of conservatives. (That's why talk of Obama being an extreme liberal is such nonsense. He would barely qualify as a liberal in some countries!)
Religion and conservatism are tightly intertwined and I don't think you can budge support for one without budging the other. I have great hope that damage wrought by the Bush/Rove partnership will help sweep the Democrats to power this year, and perhaps a successful Democratic presidency (yeah, one can dream) will help to being nudging the political masses back to the center, at least, at give secularism a little more breathing room and a chance to grow.
Posted by: tacitus | February 26, 2008 4:22 AM
Monkey's Uncle #36: There was an EU-wide survey I think in 2001. You can get it from the Eurostat web site. France is the most secular nation in the UN and Malta the most religious.
A recent report from the special rapporteur from the UN said this about Blighty: "In 2007, approximately two-thirds of the British either did not claim membership of a religion or said that they never attended a religious service, compared with 26 per cent in 1964."
You guys over the pond have got a little catching up to do...
Posted by: Jit | February 26, 2008 4:31 AM
I wouldn't emphasize the agnostic/atheist distinction. My siblings and I used to equivocate. I remember my father telling me that we were agnostics, not atheists, because the latter designation required a faith in the nonexistence of god. The first edition of the American Heritage Dictionary shared his judgment:
Later editions have a dual definition including us non-believers.
My parents found like-minded people among the Unitarian Universalists, and our town's fellowship is experiencing growth pains. Nationwide they've been growing about 1% a year. They're essentially non-religious but politically liberal, it's a place to meet like-minded skeptics who like a Sunday morning talk on current events with a children's program and coffee and cake afterwards.
I don't attend myself, but I pick up my mother afterwards and I know many other members. Some of the old-time hard-core types object to the minister wearing a robe and lighting candles, but are mollified when I point out that these are traditional pagan practices.
There's no creed, anyone can join, and diversity is prized, but if you're a lonely non-believer you'll find kindred spirits among the UU's.
Posted by: bad Jim | February 26, 2008 4:35 AM
There are so many difficulties in determining what people really think from surveys such as these, but I'll mention just three:
1. This was (mostly; see Appendix 4) a telephone survey. Of all working numbers called, at only 80% of the numbers (after up to 10 tries) could a request for interview be made. Of that 80%, only 35% consented to be interviewed. Of that 35%, only 86% completed the survey. Since 80% * 35% * 86% = only a 24% response rate, one wonders what the other 76% of us think, particularly the 65% of 80%, that is, 52% of all of us, who refused to be interviewed.
2. When a surveyer asks "Do you believe in God?" (not a question on this survey, but the point remains) and the respondent answers "yes," we haven't learned much. We know only that when at a particular time a survey taker asked this respondent this question, the respondent gave that surveyer the answer "yes." We don't know what the respondent's notion of God is, or how strongly he feels about it, or how often he thinks about it, or how it affects his behavior, or even what answer he would give in some other circumstance. I've seen it reported and repeated that 90% of Americans believe in God. I have no idea what that statistic really means.
3. From the report: "Similarly, atheists and agnostics are defined here as all respondents who described themselves as being atheist or agnostic, even though some of them may believe in some notion of God." Interestingly, Pew doesn't similarly clarify that respondents who describe themselves as religious or religiously affiliated may not believe in some notion of God.
Posted by: Daniel Murphy | February 26, 2008 4:40 AM
Monkey's Uncle: Here
From the article:
It is likely to be even higher - both in Britain and the US - due to the fact that many people still claim a religious affiliation, while referring primarily to their cultural roots. Given that less than 6% regularly attend a church service, we are, to all intents and purposes, a nation of Godless heathens!
Posted by: Damian | February 26, 2008 5:00 AM
Tacitus,
thx for the link, as I think this is the more correct analysis :
- the non religious grew from 8% to 12% over the last 20 years (I wouldn't consider the Atheist/Agnostic/non religious as significant, as it is totally unclear if the respondents would agree on a standardised definition).
- traditional religious beliefs and practices (importance of prayer, judgement day, certainty of the existence of God) hardly changed since 20 years ago.
However, what is quite significant is that the growing trend towards more religiosity which had been observed until the turn of the century, has been reversed since then.
And that is the really good news, that the trend has reversed itself, despite all the efforts from the neo-cons to push a religious agenda during the last 7 years of Bush.
So, even if one can hardly rejoice from the absolute numbers, there is at least one comforting news, America is back on the road to sanity.
Posted by: negentropyeater | February 26, 2008 5:34 AM
Damian said:
I knew there was a reason I still liked being British! However if we really want to up the numbers of Godless Heathens (and this might help across the pond as well) what we need to do is ensure that all major religions have equal time in Religious Studies lessons (at least in State Schools).
When religions are all presented as equal, contradictory and competing beliefs that all have the same amount of evidence to back them up (i.e. none) rather than individually in isolation as only way to truth the result is that they all wind up looking much less compelling. Thus the child is more likely to look at each one objectively rather than feel guilt-tripped into plumping for a particular one in later life simply because that happens to be the one most prevalent in their neck of the woods.
Posted by: Lilly de Lure | February 26, 2008 5:51 AM
What I do find quite incredible is that 83% of all americans never doubt the existence of God.
A similar question was asked in France in a CSA-Le Monde poll in 2003, (are you certain of the existence of God), and the result was only 24% !
I'm quite sure that if one had compared these two in the 50s, they would have been quite similar. But now, the difference is striking, to say the least.
Posted by: negentropyeater | February 26, 2008 6:09 AM
Alex @ 19,
My choice is to use Firefox. At work, I cannot control my PC configuration, so I am stuck with IE. But then I work for
Fox loversthe Feds.Posted by: True Bob | February 26, 2008 6:43 AM
Some other interesting things of note about atheists (not unaffiliated) if you look at the full survey results in the website (Yes, I'm a nerd with nothing better to do). Atheists boast the highest percentage of young people, second only to New Age. (I think we're sucking out youngsters from both the secular unaffiliated and the agnostics)
And we also have a large percentage of people who have large incomes, although not as rich as Jews and Hindus (Hey... where did they get their money?). We are also the most educated among the unaffiliated. (As you would expect, religious unaffiliated people dragged the education level of the unaffiliated down)
Posted by: Jan Chan | February 26, 2008 7:02 AM
The 'backsliding' is not always permanent. I had to overcome religion twice. Sometimes a child realizes that he is atheist and the family surrounding him does everything possible to bring the rebel goat back to the herd. I realized I was atheist when I started to read mythology and see books about science, when I was 8 or 9. My atheism did not last long, two weeks with my fundie uncles and it was over. I simply did not have the tools to tear apart their 'arguments'. Studying in a catholic school did not help neither, and I had to wait until i was 17 to realize again how silly and void is all the issue.
Posted by: Guido | February 26, 2008 7:07 AM
Say, I did a phone survey for Pew Research - must've been at least one year ago or so - asking all sorts of questions - but definitely included a bunch of religion/political questions, and household-income/kids/etc. It was actually an interesting conversation (not a robocall), and I was kind of glad I didn't just hang up like I usually do.
Posted by: maditude | February 26, 2008 7:10 AM
Re #4 Humbert,
As a parent with a child in the public school system in Florida, (I suspect the specific state doesn't really matter), I long ago understood that teaching critical thinking skills was my job on my own time. As to
WHYmore isn't being done in this regard in the pulic schools, I have some ideas, I think that a lot of that has already been extensively discussed on this and other forums. In any case I'm pretty sure I can't yet depend on the public school system to teach such skills.Maybe they have been deeply engrossed in the study of vulcanology and will pick an erupting volcano and all throw themselves in with large bales of incense tossed in for good measure. We atheists could set up bleacher seats at a safe distance and sell beer and hot dogs while we sit back and enjoy the brightly lit plumes of sweet smelling smoke wafting heavenward carrying their eternal souls. Bwa ha ha ha!
Posted by: Fernando Magyar | February 26, 2008 7:15 AM
I'd be really interested to know on what basis these 83% Americans can say that they never doubt the existence of God.
I mean do they really have an explanation for this apparent certainty, even if it isn't scientific evidence, (such as "because I believe I have a personal relationship with God", or "because I believe that the Bible is the word of God") or are they just pretending that they never doubt, as if they were scared of something, or simply because of peer pressure ?
I suppose that it is a bit of all, but it would be interesting to know more about this, especially when defining communication strategies to encourage critical thinking.
Someone who has convinced himself that he is having a personal relationship with God, will probably be immune to any scientific arguments... This "born again" phenomena is going to be a harder nut to crack than we might think.
Posted by: negentropyeater | February 26, 2008 7:26 AM
"and godlessness is often presented as simple disbelief without a body of associated positive values. We need to change that."
Really, and what would those values be? They wouldn't be leftist values by any chance?
Atheism/godlessness is not a belief system, I keep saying this to the religious nuts who I argue with all the time. Trying to make it into a belief system is 1) erroneous and 2) gives them ammo against us.
You cannot derive a system of values that comes from not believeing in God, it just can't be done.
Posted by: ArgusEyes | February 26, 2008 7:27 AM
As another implied above, Unitarians hardly fit in with the religious zealots. Some are Xtian, some solid atheists, and about the only thing they agree upon is that it's possible to be in a religious community and think for oneself.
Which I'm convinced is the important dichotomy -- not between religious and atheist, but between People of the Book and freethinkers.
Posted by: Paco | February 26, 2008 7:32 AM
In and of itself I agree, but in order to get to a freethinking/atheist position, particularly in areas that are dominated by religion you typically need to have respect for critical thinking, a respect for intellectual honesty and the humility to take on board the evidence reality puts in front of you whilst forming your views.
These don't seem like such bad values to teach to children do they?
I must admit to being a bit taken aback by this comment. Although PZ tends towards the Liberal end of the spectrum a quick glance at the threads dealing with Gun Control, Abortion, or indeed any of the familiar "flash issues" of the American political spectrum quickly reveals that, at Pharyngula at least, atheists hold a wide variety of political beliefs from right across the spectrum (religious wingnuttery obviously excepted - you don't see too many Pharyngula regulars advocating ID in schools for example).
What you do find when you look at these debates is that whatever side the commentators come down on they provide, and expect others to provide, evidence (ideally statistical evidence) to back up any factual claims they might make in the course of the argument and are quick to call BS on those who they regard as posting inadequate, inaccurate or deliberately misleading evidence to support their opinions.
It kind of looks like all of us, whatever our politics, have a certain shared respect for the value of intellectual honesty, critical thinking and external evidence doesn't it? Would you accept these as the basis of an atheist/freethinker value system?
Posted by: Lilly de Lure | February 26, 2008 7:58 AM
Every time one of these surveys comes out, it shows there's more iconoclasm among the young, and someone declares victory: in a few decades, all those young rebel atheists will be middle-aged atheists!
Then they get older and settle down into the conventional religions of their neighbors. There's *always* more iconoclasm among the young. It doesn't necessarily imply a real demographic shift coming. (Or where are all the ex-hippies?)
The logic error here is overgeneralizing: if statistics show that a disproportionate number of young people is, say, Latino, then when they grow up they'll still be Latino, but that's not necessarily true for political or religious affiliations.
Posted by: Chris | February 26, 2008 8:14 AM
I'm a scientific advisor for the Clergy Letter Project, so I immediately looked for evolution-friendly faiths in the survey. This is obviously rough, since it's rare to find any faith that is monolithically pro-evolution and I've overlooked some faiths, but my guesstimate would be:
Catholic: 23.9%
Mainline Protestant: 18.1%
Mormon: 1.7%
Reform/other Jewish: 1%
Unitarians & other liberal faiths: 0.7%
or 45.4% of as a likely pro-evolution coalition among the religious. Despite the stridency of the antievolution crowd, this gives me hope. Thoughts?
Posted by: James F | February 26, 2008 8:29 AM
I gave my two cents to CBS through their website:
I recently watched your piece on "Religion in the United States" based on the results of the recent Pew report. I was surprised and insulted by the comment of Wyatt Andrews. He stated, "This unpresidented survey of religion answers many of the concerns about a secular, morally void America." As part of the 16.1% of Americans who describe themselves as "unaffiliated" with religion, I am insulted that he thinks the alternative to being religious is being "morally void." Shame on Wyatt Andrews and shame on CBS.
Posted by: zeekster | February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
"... (the survey) answers many of the concerns about a secular, morally void America"
It still sounds like they need to go back to school and get some refresher courses in journalistic objectivity.
Posted by: Jason Failes | February 26, 2008 8:40 AM
Not quite true. Our local UU place (church?) now requires deism. No atheists allowed (must be tired of all the puppy blood smoothies).
Posted by: True Bob | February 26, 2008 8:44 AM
It's funny, my 16 year old has been hanging around his friends and suddenly became religious. He wasn't before, so I would chalk up a ton of that ton "i'll do what my friends do". Conversely, my 7 year old daughters best friend is a Baptist and a few weeks ago told me she believed in god and she started praying before we ate. After two weeks, she told me "I don't believe in god anymore" WOOT!!! After he brother told her about the devil, she said "Daddy, that stuff really creeps me out!" My 7 year old is an atheist, she just doesn't know it yet.
Posted by: firemancarl | February 26, 2008 8:57 AM
1.6% of 303,514,030 = 4,856,224.
Hi everyone!
At this rate of progress, the entire nation will be atheistic by the year 3,000 and there won't be anyone left to rapture!
Woo-Hoo!
Posted by: CalGeorge | February 26, 2008 8:58 AM
Story on NPR this morning:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19354039
Posted by: Deepsix | February 26, 2008 8:59 AM
"Anyway, we have something to feel good about -- the trends are running towards a return to a more secular America, although obviously we have a ways to go yet. And of course, when the Rapture comes and all the charismafundagelical loonies vanish in a puff of incense, we'll have an even greater forward lurch in the percentages."
In case of Rapture, i'll be watching porn.
Posted by: firemancarl | February 26, 2008 8:59 AM
OT
Hey, PZ! I found a goofy video you might get a kick out of. It's from an old videogame back when translations weren't very good, but there's a priceless line at the 1:43 mark, or so, that I think you'll appreciate it.
It cracks me up every time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8zN8hobvoQ&feature=related
Posted by: October Mermaid | February 26, 2008 9:01 AM
This post reminds me of some numbers in the link provided in Ricky Gervais's deconversion story that was posted yesterday. In Mr. Gervais's piece, he says:
"Seventy-five percent of Americans are God-fearing Christians; 75 percent of prisoners are God-fearing Christians. Ten percent of Americans are atheists; 0.2 percent of prisoners are atheists."
I have heard similar stats about the religious affiliation of the prison population. Can anyone point to where these numbers originate? It has been suggested to me that there exists in the prison culture in this country real pressure to affiliate with a religion (i.e. that being an atheist in prison can be "problematic.") If that is the case, it might explain the reporting of such low numbers of atheists in prison. I would love to hear that this is not the case, and that atheists in general are much more law-abiding citizens than our Christian brothers and sisters.
Posted by: apk | February 26, 2008 9:11 AM
Regarding this comment...
"but our children have a significant chance of 'backsliding' into some religion later in life. I suspect that is a consequence of the fact that most non-religious households will not provide any specific training in beliefs (I know I didn't!) and godlessness is often presented as simple disbelief without a body of associated positive values. We need to change that."
The Unitarian Universalist Church which is made up of largely secular humanists (athiests/agnostics) provides children with an understanding of other religions and also a faith community. It shows that you can go to church and not believe in god(s). http://www.uua.org/
Posted by: Richard | February 26, 2008 9:17 AM
Lilly,
"It kind of looks like all of us, whatever our politics, have a certain shared respect for the value of intellectual honesty, critical thinking and external evidence doesn't it? Would you accept these as the basis of an atheist/freethinker value system?"
I'd say that we would most probably share similar definitions for these words, intellectual honesty, critical thinking, and evidence. How well we respect these, in all matters, is another piece of cake.
The problem is, that many religious folks have their own definitions, which are going to be quite different from ours. An example of this is "evidence". We free thinkers do not consider as evidence the fact that someone is convinced that he is having a personal relationship with God. Whereas they do. And it can even go beyond this, as ounce I were told, that my objection to this form of evidence, was the cause for my inability to "receive" this evidence.
What shall I have replied to this ?
Posted by: negentropyeater | February 26, 2008 9:23 AM
As my name applies, Im a stay at home dad raising 3 kids (6,4,2). I have found ways to handle the extremely sensitive issues of religion. One of the things I have found to help is to use past myths (greek mythology is the coolest) as examples while teaching why humans would have toid such stories. Then show them the answers that science has found for us.
I have found that children, more so that adults, need answers to things they see. And if you just take the time to teach them about some of the simple sciences when they are young, it will give them a good foundation for rejecting religious nonsense later.
The ONLY way to break religious dominance is to teach our children about SCIENCE.
Posted by: Mr.Mom | February 26, 2008 9:23 AM
The Pew report is probably worth to look closer at, as was the last one when I was informed of its existence.
For now, some scattered thoughts on the survey:
-
Exactly my reaction to these types of surveys as well, and the comments numbers shows this excellently.
But let us also mention the possible worth: one can study trends of self-reported affiliations over a repeated survey, and roughly so over similar surveys. (Though I admit that varying response ratios complicates such a claim.)
- The top 4 groups are equally large and the unaffiliated, mostly non-religious, ranks 4th. Possible political clout.
- IIRC the rate of affiliation change has increased. This is A Good Thing, as it (may indicate that some affiliations are perceived as more unsatisfying and) definitely indicates that individuals are now more willing to consider what they believe in.
Posted by: Torbjörn Larsson, OM | February 26, 2008 9:29 AM
Our local UU place (church?) now requires deism. No atheists allowed...
Surprising. I am Hindu and spend just a little more time at my mandir as I do at the UUA in my neighborhood (after I joined their book club). Neither of the traditions (they are not religions or faiths although some who follow these traditions may take things on faith) are creedal. Although for me, after all the gaiety, colour, song, and dance at my mandir, it's hard to discuss abstract questions about purpose etc., with my UUA friends.
Posted by: rimpal | February 26, 2008 9:34 AM
Possibly quoting some of the evidence for visions as brain-chemistry e.t.c. might help (you might want to make particular references to the US Military's accidental replication of the out-of-body/near death experience by subjecting their pilots to powerful G-Forces during training),