…and this is a 
Tit-for-tat
Category: Religion • Stupidity
Posted on: February 13, 2008 8:40 AM, by PZ Myers
The Danish cartoonists vs. Muslims conflict is flaring up again, with the discovery of a conspiracy by Muslims to kill a cartoonist. There are many levels of irony here; it's simply stupid to try and protest accusations that you are violent by committing acts of violence. I've also noticed an interesting pattern of escalation.
The aggrieved Muslims are saying, "Mock our god and we will kill you." They have the goal of suppressing images they consider blasphemous.
The cartoonists are saying, "Threaten to kill us and we will mock your god." Obviously, they'd like to stay alive, but their goal in this context is to see their work disseminated widely.
Now ask yourself, who is achieving their goals? Who is winning?
It looks to me like a few relatively obscure cartoonists are crushing the fundamentalist Muslim world. Those cartoons aren't even that good, and they're being published everywhere, even appearing on blogs.
Now maybe I'm misinterpreting the fundie Muslim position here: maybe their goal is actually to make sure the world thinks their beliefs are dangerous and stupid, and also ineffectual; they're flailing pointlessly to suppress a couple of scribblings that would have vanished into obscurity, and have managed to turn them into icons of Islamic insanity. They're doing a good job if that's so. They've convinced me, at any rate.
Politics
Comments
Extremists of any religion make their whole community look like crazy fools.
You know, nowadays Christians don't launch lots of massacres, but they sure get offended at anything that makes fun of Jeebus! Did you guys see the makeup kits in Singapore?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330439,00.html
I found that hilarious.
Posted by: Michelle | February 13, 2008 8:45 AM
Saying nasty things about cartoonists might get a few people on your side temporarily.
But the retaliation will have the whole world laughing at you for decades.
I guess some people are just slow learners, and need to have their noses rubbed in the obvious. Makes more laughs for the rest of us, so there's some benefit, I suppose.
Posted by: Snarki, child of Loki | February 13, 2008 8:49 AM
Don't have any airports near your house, do you?
(...Sounds funny, now.)
People would recall that seen in The World According to Garp....
Yeesh, I need coffee.
Posted by: Moody834 | February 13, 2008 8:50 AM
Professor,
I have a slightly different interpretation. The Danish cartoon case was ginned up by the rulers of islamic nations to deflect criticism from their failed policies. islamic leaders enrich and indulge themselves and keep their populations in poverty and to deflect their anger, outside enemies have to be created.
The governments of Egypt, Libya, Syria, Pakistan and others had a conveint fall guy to cover for their countries lack of infrastructure, education, medical facilities and hope. And tons of Danish flags were rushed into the region for burning.
After the initial publication there was no worldwide outcry, but a group of Imams in Denmark (who had been granted sanctuary by the Danish Government) added 3 fake cartoons they created and toured the world looking for support.
Once the governmental leaders realized the gold mine of deflection they ensured the fanatics would be roused from the state supported mosques and religious schools.
Posted by: gene | February 13, 2008 8:52 AM
So we're reminded again of the trust of that throwaway line (here heavily paraphrased) from The Hitchhikers Guide: "The purpose of of a president is not to wield power, but to distract attention from it." So, Gene, you're implying that the only difference between our ogliarchy and theirs is the use of a slightly different batch of holy bangles to distract the devout masses from the acts being committed against them?
Posted by: Steve in MI | February 13, 2008 9:01 AM
According to the article, these people are accused of plotting to murder a Danish citizen, and as punishment they're going to be kicked out of the country? I'm no right-wing fanatic when it comes to sentencing, but that seems wholly inadequate.
Posted by: Taz | February 13, 2008 9:02 AM
Someone really ought to have told them to start with a strongly worded letter to the editor. A vicious verbal barb stings way more than a beheading or a bomb.
Posted by: Ted D | February 13, 2008 9:02 AM
Michelle, that was pretty funny. Of course now I feel dirty for going to foxnews.com.
Posted by: Deepsix | February 13, 2008 9:03 AM
@4 - I've read analyses of the recent Teddy bear brouhaha in Sudan that came to a similar conclusion. Of course, we have similar manipulations going on in the U.S. -- keep the believers fired up about gay marriage or the war on Christmas and maybe they won't notice their wages are stagnant, the foreclosure rate is climbing, infrastructure is crumbling, and U.S. troops are dying daily in an illegal and unnecessary war. Religion has always been used to keep the masses in line.
Posted by: Nan | February 13, 2008 9:05 AM
A non-fox article about lookin' good for jesus:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7241296.stm
Posted by: Ted D | February 13, 2008 9:06 AM
PZ, I'm very glad you're posting more on Islamic insanity. I hate to compare religions, and Christianity is loony enough with its exorcisms and apocalyptic aspirations; but it does seem that no religion is currently as medieval in its culture as Islam. My problem is the severe case of cognitive dissonance I experience when I find myself agreeing with people like Wafa Sultan and Hirsi Ali who run around with the deranged David Horowitz ( I think both were part of his Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week) and get angry at all the fellow liberals who won't criticize Islam, no matter what, out of some misguided reverence for abstract multiculturalism.
____________________________________________
Posted by: Aris | February 13, 2008 9:13 AM
Time for Hitchism to descend on all ye (ye) nations.
Posted by: danley | February 13, 2008 9:22 AM
Cartoon reactions from an hate-filled cartoon religion whose basic working principle is: I've got this book and it makes me powerful and you must obey me or face the consequences, which include loss of life or body parts.
1.4 billion idiots.
Posted by: CalGeorge | February 13, 2008 9:23 AM
am I missing something? aren't the muslims protesting the depiction of their prophet, which is supposedly blasphemous? this is the first time I've actually seen the cartoon in question, and nowhere on it is there anything to indicate that this is a picture of the prophet muhammad... they need to quit their bitching, if they don't want the world to think they're violent then quit being violent!
Posted by: Zeph | February 13, 2008 9:23 AM
Just because it's fiction, doesn't mean it's not true in the broader sense. Just yesterday, another bit of the law was flushed down the toilet. At this point in my life, I hardly recognize the US and, maybe, 2/3rds of the Constitution is working, and most of that weakly. First Amendment - semi-trashed. Fourth Amendment - Trashed. Fifth Amendment - semi-trashed. Sixth Amendment - trashed. "Unlimited" unitary Executive - every day... Congressional oversight - non-existent. Wacko Judicial opinions - Right wing throw-down!
But, back to the main point, it's not like we're acting so very different. The Christian right has a hell of a dog-and-pony show going on right now. Here in America. A regular "Kill the Muslims" tour put on by Focus on the Family, including a recent stop at the US Air Force Academy.
So, let's not just pile on the Muslims, of which these are just a few. There are plenty of cretins to go around, including most the Christian Right.
Posted by: Moses | February 13, 2008 9:27 AM
Deportation may not seem like much. But, Denmark is one of those Social Liberal Welfare states. The wankers that dreamed this up are very likely on the dole and being sent back to the auld sod might be real punishment. Oh, the rulers of the Islamic lands are not noted for their kind and gentle treatment of heretics or revolutionaries. It's one thing to moan about the evils of parents when one lives at home. It's quite another to be living on the street that always makes the news.
Posted by: Mold | February 13, 2008 9:28 AM
Hopefully the major news outlets in the US show that they actually have a spine and print the cartoon this time. I didn't even know what the thing looked like for quite a while.
Whatever happened to the US being one of the big defenders of free speech?
Posted by: schmeer | February 13, 2008 9:28 AM
Hmm... LInk's not working. Here's the Christian Right's "Kill all the Muslims" tour: http://thefaithfulpenguin.blogspot.com/2008/02/christian-right-kill-all-muslims.html
Posted by: Moses | February 13, 2008 9:28 AM
Astute observations about the US Nan. The War on Christmas keeps people from recognizing the theft of 3 trillion dollars by the War profiters in the DoD.
And Steve in MI, I think rulers of nations feel the have more in common with each other than with the people they control. It's in the leadership interests to keep their people focused away from what the government is doing.
To quote Mencken:
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and hence clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
Posted by: gene | February 13, 2008 9:29 AM
Winning? Where? In the newspapers in non-Muslim countries? And where is the war being fought?
Posted by: GS | February 13, 2008 9:40 AM
Taz wrote (# 6):
The article is a bit odd.
Just below the headline, it says:
So there were three men. But of which nationality?
That is two Tunisian citizens and one Danish citizen, right?
But wait!
Now, those two Tunisian citizens apparently were quick to change their nationality.
But let us take that quote one more time:
If they are Moroccan citizens, how does the regulations of the Danish aliens' act apply to them? Moroccan citizens are usually not from outer space!
- pwe
Posted by: pwe | February 13, 2008 9:41 AM
The Muslims want to rid the world
Of all cartoons that irk us--
I say, come join in my jihad
Against The Family Circus!
To threaten death for doodling
Mohammed is just silly,
When much more damage has been done
By Jeffy and by Billy.
The mental anguish brought about
By P.J. or by Dolly
Makes Muslim claims of blasphemy
Just so much useless folly.
Who holds a gun to Bil Keane's head--
Against his plaintive plea,
And makes him write this sort of crap?
Oh! "Ida Know"; "Not Me"!
Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | February 13, 2008 9:43 AM
Moody834 wrote (#3):
Ummm, I live just on the other side of a highway from Copenhagen Airport, Kastrup, but I haven't read The World According to Garp, so please enlighten me, what that is all about :-)
- pwe
Posted by: pwe | February 13, 2008 9:46 AM
You can buy Looking Good for Jesus products online.
Now if only someone made Cthulhu cosmetics...
Posted by: Tulse | February 13, 2008 9:49 AM
Allah sure is a wimp if he needs mortals to defend him from blasphemy. These muslims are just admitting that their gawd is stupid and impotent. Allah it seems it not so great, but rather the wizard of oz.
But that doesn't prevent the British wimp government from bending over backside raised high once again to the idol of multiculturalism.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7204635.stm
"A story based on the Three Little Pigs fairy tale has been turned down by a government agency's awards panel as the subject matter could offend Muslims.
The digital book, re-telling the classic story, was rejected by judges who warned that "the use of pigs raises cultural issues".
Becta, the government's educational technology agency, is a leading partner in the annual Bett Award for schools."
If I offend any muslims, it is purely intentional and I don't care. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Posted by: bernarda | February 13, 2008 9:54 AM
Absolutely, externalization and/or internal-scapegoating are two of the classic strategies to deflect the population into a more controllable state. You see the Iranians do it with the US and Israel. You see the US do it in our diplomacy. Hitler did it with the Jews. Mussolini did it in Italy. Always the anger at the poverty, lack-of-freedoms, etc. must be directed against "them," the evil conspirators that our holding "us" down.
We see this in America, too. For example, Bush fails to heed warnings about terrorism and not only gets little criticism, but the Whitehouse, through proxies, have most of the American people believing, within months that Iraq was either responsible or that the could support Al Qaeda in a second or third attack. For example, in a February, 2003 76 percent of those surveyed felt Saddam provides assistance to Al Qaeda. A second poll in in a February, 2003 asked: "Was Saddam Hussein personally involved in the September 11 attacks?" 72 percent said it was either very or somewhat likely.
Rather than demanding accountability for the massive failures and ignored warnings about the 9/11 attack and the punishments of those who criminally negligent, the US population was distracted by the Whitehouse fixing the anger on an external enemy - Iraq - that had NOTHING to do with act and was no credible threat. This allowed some terrible results to happen. Condi Rice should have been fired - she was promoted. The entire Bush Whitehouse should have been impeached, for numerous reasons much more serious that parsing language about a blow-job, and they were re-elected. We should have had a police action against Al Qaeda for their crimes - we're in two illegal wars.
If you were part of the minority and dared step out of line and talk about the Emperors New Clothes, you're branded a "traitor." You are dehumanized as a "rifle dropping, girly-boy" or just called "French." If you were a CIA agent, you were outed and your career destroyed. People threatened your life, police assaulted you for demonstrating, they burned your CDs, and the list goes on and on and on...
Posted by: Moses | February 13, 2008 10:00 AM
"So we're reminded again of the trust of that throwaway line (here heavily paraphrased) from The Hitchhikers Guide: "The purpose of of a president is not to wield power, but to distract attention from it." So, Gene, you're implying that the only difference between our ogliarchy and theirs is the use of a slightly different batch of holy bangles to distract the devout masses from the acts being committed against them?"
EXACTLY. Once you ignore all our differences, WE'RE JUST LIKE THEM!!11!
Posted by: Shawn O'connerly | February 13, 2008 10:05 AM
I really loathe these sort of people, especially when I've got to remind people that I'm an atheist despite my Muslim - rather than Islamic, which is a word that just bugs me as much as "Pakistanian" rather than Pakistani, but I digress - name. Amusingly, it was the insistence by my devout but fairly liberal parents on a good education that led to me being bored with the notion of an invisible imaginary friend-like entity.
As much as I can understand how a Muslim can feel picked on nowadays - post 9/11 "he's swarthy has facial hair/ get hiiiim" anyone? - I have to wince at the sheer stupidity of the "You said something naughty about Mohammed? I keeel you!" attitude. End of the day, they tend to forget that it's just words, not sticks and stones. Ach.
Posted by: Adnan Ahmad | February 13, 2008 10:08 AM
I read the decision by the Danes to publish those freaking
muslim cartoons on the Internet news this morning. About
time the Danes finally got some fortitude and stood up
against the muslim fanatics. To stem the fanatics obvious
retribution against this courageous act, they should hire
street thugs and even the underworld to retaliate against
this deranged scum when they start to act. Just flail away
and smash as many of them you can until they get the message that we are not going to tolerate any more insane
bullshit. Do what Indiana Jones did in the movie "Raiders
of the lost ark" and blast the right away and with deadly force. This is what the scum employ, so why not retaliate in kind? Smash the slime down, and let their freaking
god worry over them.
Posted by: Holbach | February 13, 2008 10:12 AM
Hitchikers and Islam: what terrible possible conflations of things become possible. Prophets. Eccentrica Gallumbits.
Posted by: Peter Mc | February 13, 2008 10:17 AM
Cuttlefish, #22 was brilliant. Kudos to all the Danish folks putting their safety in jeopardy for free speech.
Posted by: Lycosid | February 13, 2008 10:19 AM
I agree, but I have to object to one PZ statement: "Those cartoons aren't even that good".
At least the one shown above is an excellent cartoon. The idea is focused and the drawing is excellent. I've seen a few others which are much less clever and skillfully rendered, but this one could win a prize.
Posted by: rick | February 13, 2008 10:21 AM
I'd just like to congratulate PZ for having the balls to post the cartoon on his blog. If only the major newspaper and television channels had been equally courageous when this storm in a teacup originally erupted. Playing the cowardly PC card only served to strengthen the resolve and self-belief of the loonies. It's nice to see that a number of Danish newspapers are today (or tomorrow) publishing the cartoons in an act of solidarity.
Posted by: SteveN | February 13, 2008 10:21 AM
#29 - sarcasm, right? The reference to the brownshirts was the giveaway.
Posted by: anonymous dave | February 13, 2008 10:32 AM
Muslims in Denmark have some legitimate grievances, not having been allowed to build a mosque or a muslim graveyard. And given the coverage of these issues I've read in Jullands-Posten, the comics were a very mean commentary in context. (that same paper publishes letters to the editor which argue about the permissibility of allowing a mosque, including ones arguing: "well, yes, but only if it doesn't look like a mosque")
This got lost in the wider reaction, which on "both sides" (more like all sides, there's certainly more than two) completely ignored context. The comics are more than their content, they are part of a larger statement. The worldwide protests were ridiculous, and probably hurt Danish Muslims (or Muslim residents of Denmark) more than anyone else - their real problems became part of a ridiculous protest, or were just lost.
Posted by: Carolyn | February 13, 2008 10:36 AM
I thought this one was pretty funny.
Posted by: Gunnar | February 13, 2008 10:39 AM
Does Blue-Q market the LOOKING GOOD FOR JESUS Coin Purse in Singapore?
http://www.blueq.com/shop/item/114-productId.125838060_114-catId.117440633.html
I bet the complaining Catholics wouldn't complain about that item.
Posted by: Gene Goldring | February 13, 2008 10:46 AM
Anonymous dave @ # 34 No sarcasm inferred or expressed,
just pure hatred for dangerous religious fanatics who
want to bring down civilized society to conform to
their brand of insanity. The thought of the brownshirts or
any other political group bent on turmoil had never entered
my mind, nor would I have used my emotions in any way other than what is expressed here. Pure and simple.
Posted by: Holbach | February 13, 2008 10:50 AM
Anyone else reminded of the picture of the guy holding up the sign, "Behead those who say Islam is a violent religion!"?
Posted by: Stanton | February 13, 2008 10:52 AM
Posted by: schmeer | February 13, 2008 11:00 AM
LOL!
Holbach, why do you want to<br> stoop to that level? That can't even be<br> justified on utilitarian grounds. You're<br> getting your holy wrath again. Calm down a little.
Naaah. I mean, what's it supposed to show? Head-Asplodey Syndrome?
That one is funny.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | February 13, 2008 11:04 AM
Holbach - good thing you're just venting. While the protesters are the embodiment of lunacy, your suggestion sounded just like Kristallnacht, just substituting a group you dislike for one the Nazis disliked. Perhaps not such a great idea.
Carolyn - I don't think context helps them any. Because they aren't allowed to construct buildings to their liking, they somehow are more understandable in their absurdly overreacting to cartoons (which their "leaders" forged)? So what if they aren't allowed to worship their particular brand of sky-fairydom? They want to avail themselves of laws on freedom of religion, to practice a religion that declares itself above (and beyond) the law? I see no problem with the rejection of this notion.
Posted by: anonymous dave | February 13, 2008 11:12 AM
PZ said: "Those cartoons aren't even that good"
A few are very good. The irony of these two are great. (Keep in mind they were drawn before the ruckus):
http://www.smashtheman.com/smash/Uploads/MuslimCartoonAnger6.gif
http://www.smashtheman.com/smash/Uploads/MuslimCartoonAnger3.gif
This one is pretty funny:
http://www.smashtheman.com/smash/Uploads/MuslimCartoonAnger12.gif
Finally I like this one too:
http://www.smashtheman.com/smash/Uploads/MuslimCartoonAnger8.gif
Posted by: OsakaGuy | February 13, 2008 11:19 AM
Michelle -
From the perspective of someone who's lived in Singapore, I suspect that it's probably a non-Christian retailer making wild guesses at what Christians might buy.
Posted by: david | February 13, 2008 11:23 AM
This is what fundamentalists are good at. Symbolic ideology over what works. We see it here in abstinence only sex ed, just say no drug policy, trickle down economics, and hell we even had the PMRC perform this exact service. 2 Live Crew was crap. The PMRC made them.
Posted by: gex | February 13, 2008 11:26 AM
Carolyn wrote (#35):
I am sure, what you are referring to here. There have been two projects with building 'grand mosques'. One in Arhus, projected price: DKr 50 million, this far only around DKr 100.000 have been collected. The other in Copenhagen, projected price much higher (though I don't remember it exactly), but, alas, the company that owned the site had not been contacted and have other plans for the site.
And as for a Muslim graveyard, it has been built.
JyllandsPosten is a conservative newspaper with focus on Lutheran Christianity and on Danish nationalism.
But as I have understood, the 12 cartoons were to illustrate artistic self-cencorship following the assasination of film-producer Theo van Gogh.
- pwe
Posted by: pwe | February 13, 2008 11:42 AM
Don't be silly, PZ. The Muslims are clearly trying to convince the world the Danes can't think of any good cartoon ideas. Quite successfully, too, might I add.
Posted by: Becca | February 13, 2008 11:43 AM
Not many Islamists in Morris? Do you not feel a slight twinge of regret for posting this?
Posted by: Lev | February 13, 2008 11:49 AM
anonymous dave - Some "leaders" in Denmark (the protests weren't nearly as hot in Denmark as elsewhere) forged comics - that doesn't mean that every random muslim in denmark should then bow down and say -oh, we don't deserve rights.
No cemetery means burying family members somewhere that may have been home. No mosque permitted is a message that people "like them" aren't welcome - it's a building, if it was all about style, it would have been resolved by now. And much as the claim is that scandinavia is all secular, you need to have your child's name approved by the local priest in Denmark (there are no muslim names on the "approved" list), and there are confirmation classes in school (technically, they end class and walk down to the church). This isn't justification for murder or widespread looting, but it is not nothing.
I'm not saying that even the protests or actions _by_muslims_in_denmark_at_the_time_ were entirely reasonable. I don't want to try and excuse the world of protesters who were downright horrible - or even think of excusing a murder plot. But I think the comics were nastier in this context, given what else the newspaper publishes about muslims, than without, and that the overreaction of some "leaders" took attention away from this. It's not a matter of free speech - I can say the cartoonists had a right to draw these comics (and circulate, etc), and still think they are petty and a bad political idea.
Posted by: Carolyn | February 13, 2008 11:50 AM
All of this Looking Good For Jesus Stuff reminded me of something I think is almost as funny:
Give us breathe that is Pure and Good
Posted by: sublunary | February 13, 2008 11:51 AM
Oh, Cuttlefish. My favourite. But you might find The Family Circus much better when paired with Nietzsche quotations (and Holy fuck, I'd be an existentialist nihilist too if my name had that many superfluous letters.)
Again, I must ask the obvious: why do these all-powerful deities insist on hordes of minions to do their dirty work for them? One good ol' fashioned smiting would do more to convert the unbelievers than a few hundred million nutcase followers ever will. I guess they just must not care about conversion as much as they'd like us to believe.
Or perhaps this is just their way of deflecting us from the real truth that they don't exist.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | February 13, 2008 11:58 AM
Seriously, I'm so sick and tired of the Muslim threat-mongering that goes on, that picture is going to be going up on my blog later in the day in a post that's heavily critical of Islam and as I say in the last line, "What are you going to do, fly a plane into my house?"
Posted by: Cephus | February 13, 2008 12:03 PM
I've already put the Lookin' Good stuff on my festivus list... but back to the real issue. This whole farcical fiasco brings to mind a lot of what Richard Dawkins has to say about no one having the right to not be offended.
Posted by: raatrani | February 13, 2008 12:21 PM
I did my own Mohammed Cartoon when this first came out, and thankfully have had no death threats.
Posted by: No One of Consequence | February 13, 2008 12:37 PM
Can't see why, since the story warns you not to eat pork! ;)
Posted by: windy | February 13, 2008 12:38 PM
anonymous dave; How can you equate what you expressed at
#34 and #42 to what I expressed in my original statement?
Good grief, the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews on
purely ethnic and economic reasons, not because the Jews
were trying to exterminate the Nazis! If the Jews were so
inclined then it would stand that the Nazis would respond
in kind. The muslims want to exterminate the infidels because they are so; where the hell is it shown, other than
the crusades, that other religions want to exterminate the
muslims purely on religious grounds? Are you conscious of
what you are saying when you utter such nonsense? This is
obvious a one-sided situation, so when someone is trying
to kill you, every force should be used to combat it. How
can you devolve this situation into going after a people
who mean you no harm? Self-protection with brute force
should prevail even if it means an equal and more than
equal force to vanquish the perpetrator. Can I express
this in any blatant terms that are easy to grasp?
Posted by: Holbach | February 13, 2008 12:46 PM
When the cartoon disaster first reared its head, South Park was going to have an episode making fun of it. Which they pulled due to studio pressure.
My humble offering in response was Cartman bomb-head Mohammed: http://www.ranum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pos=0
It garnered my me first cowardly internet death threat, so I am pretty proud of it. (I got an Email from someone who couldn't write saying "u shouldnt post things like that when ure address is on ure website. someone could just show up to kill u or something."
In the interest of solidarity, we need a bombhead jebus, too. Remember - let's be fair and make fun of all the religiotards more or less equally.
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | February 13, 2008 12:51 PM
Did you hear about the atheist mob that picketed a newspaper office when its cartoonist was found with several sheets of blank paper?
Posted by: CJColucci | February 13, 2008 12:52 PM
Holbach writes:
... the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews on
purely ethnic and economic reasons
Oh, really? Are you sure that religion didn't have a teeny weeny eeny bitty smidgen to do with it?
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | February 13, 2008 12:52 PM
I know many moderate muslims who find this "conflict" rather fascinating, but aren't insulted by it. They could care less if some cartoon was portraying some mythical figure their religion reveres. From what I understand, in Europe, the extremists are arguing religion, when in fact, it's their ethnic sensibilities that are offended by it all. They feel some form of immigrant backlash, since many muslims are first or second generation immigrants, and they feel like these cartoons are run, not for religion, but for racism. Obviously, some are offended by what they feel as an insult to their irrational religious beliefs, but for most, the offense runs deeper then that. This issue is more about immigrant rights then religion. They band together over a unifying issue that happens to be religious, but is more about furthering their status in their new environments. Now of course, it doesn't help their cause when they try to institute Sharia law, force changes that would restrict freedom on the grounds to protect their stupid religious beliefs, but ultimately, such is the tension with new groups of immigrants. The simplest solution is to cast off religion all together.
My idea is to have an annual insult day where we can go off on all the religions. We can walk into a church for example, and leave a sign saying "you all worship a 2000 year old megalomaniac Jew", we can walk into a synagogue on saturday and turn on all the lights, leaving a giant carcass of a pig, which we can also do at a mosque with a picture of mohammed on it, we can walk into a hindu temple and leave a side of beef, and just for kicks, finally, and this one's my favorite, we can invite some strippers to a buddhist monestary to celebrate buddah's birthday.
However, all of these acts, though an insult to religion, would seem rather racist. That's the ultimate problem then, religion is often wrapped so tightly around one's background and ethnic heritage, that it's hard for people to escape them. Jews define their ethnic group on religious grounds, Allawi's, without their brand of islam, would not exist as an ethnic group (they speak the language of the country they live in, lebanese arabic in lebanon, syrian arabic in Syria, etc..), and countless others who define themselves on religious grounds. This isn't easy, because for these people, losing their religion is losing their sense of culture. Don't get me wrong here, I'm an atheist and think that religion is useless these days. As long as one's educated enough to have a rudimentary understanding of certain scientific principles, and willing to embrace certain aspects of their background and culture, while adopting enlightened positions like the inherent freedom that everyone possesses, things can work out.
Posted by: Helioprogenus | February 13, 2008 12:55 PM
I'm happy to report that there are indications (at least in swedish press) that these individuals are going to have their day in court - at least they will reportedly see a judge.
It would add irony if lawlessness are met with lack of due process.
Posted by: Torbjörn Larsson, OM | February 13, 2008 1:41 PM
C J Colucci @ # 57 Good one. Similiar to little booklets
I have whose cover reads: "What god has revealed to man"
The pages are all blank! I showed this to a religionist
friend who did not find it amusing. I did not say a word.
and knowing me to be an atheist, he did neither, and
walked away with a look of disgust on his face, or was it
defeated frustration? Ha, that really pisses them off!
Posted by: Holbach | February 13, 2008 1:47 PM
According to the article, these people are accused of plotting to murder a Danish citizen, and as punishment they're going to be kicked out of the country? I'm no right-wing fanatic when it comes to sentencing, but that seems wholly inadequate.
I'm no soft on crime, close the prisons left-wing fanatic, but being deported because one is accused of a crime strikes me as being altogether wrong. If they were convicted, yeah, then simply being deported seems wrong for a number of reasons (including the unfairness of Denmark's dumping its problems on other countries rather than dealing with crimes committed there itself as well as being inadequate punishment for attempting to murder someone), but deportation after just being accused of a crime, no matter how horrid the accusation...not a good idea.
Posted by: Dianne | February 13, 2008 1:55 PM
I'm happy to report that there are indications (at least in swedish press) that these individuals are going to have their day in court - at least they will reportedly see a judge.
Oh, good. I'm glad that Denmark hasn't gone completely insane and still respects due process, at least somewhat. Given that, IIRC, the third person accused, a Danish citizen, was charged and released, I wonder how strong the evidence really was. Was this a genuine plot with intent or some idiots babbling in a violent way without any actual chance of acting? Or a false or mistaken accusation altogether?
Posted by: Dianne | February 13, 2008 2:03 PM
Not many Islamists in Morris? Do you not feel a slight twinge of regret for posting this?
Posted by: Lev
Why in the world should PZ feel regret for posting this? Are you implying that this will provoke an attack in Morris, thereby making it his fault?
Posted by: Kesh | February 13, 2008 2:12 PM
The prophet Mu-ham-mad, piss be upon him.
Mu = micro; ham = cured pork; mad = insane.
Posted by: Richard Harris | February 13, 2008 2:30 PM
PZ, thanks for posting the lame comic. I keep forgetting just how petty this whole thing is.
Posted by: Flonkbob | February 13, 2008 2:36 PM
Posted by: Taz | February 13, 2008 2:47 PM
CJColucci writes:
Did you hear about the atheist mob that picketed a newspaper office when its cartoonist was found with several sheets of blank paper?
We nihilists are gonna go on a rampage against everyone who hasn't got any paper at all; it's an insult!
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | February 13, 2008 2:48 PM
I'm struggling to make sense of this as well. The best interpretation I can put on it is that they were probably plotting to murder (but the evidence is not hard enough to get a conviction) but definitely contravening the regulations under which they were permitted to stay in the country (and will be kicked out when a judge has confirmed this).
If any passing Danes can fill us in on this ...
Posted by: Stephen | February 13, 2008 3:36 PM
holbach: Your idea of meeting threats with overwhelming force has been tried, notably by the Bush administration, and always found counterproductive in the end. It's far more effective to laugh at them.
Where'd you get such booklets(#62)? I want!
Posted by: dzho | February 13, 2008 4:01 PM
Denmark have some spanking new anti-terror legislation. This empowers the Danish Security and Intelligence Service (PET) to deport legal aliens on undisclosed causes.
That is, if the PET finds that a person poses a danger to the security of Denmark that person will have his right to live in Denmark revoked, with no recourse to any court of law.
This is based on the idea that PET might compromise its sources or state secrets if it were to tell the supposed terrorist why they think he is dangerous. Why the accused could not get an appointed lawyer with security clearance to defend him in a trial, I don't know, and I am deeply offended for the travesty of justice this is.
Now in the case with the plot to kill the cartoonist, PET warned the cartoonist three months ago, and moved him and his family to a safe, secret location. Yesterday morning they then moved to arrest three person, one Danish citizen, an to Tunisian citizens.
They were all released from custody, before being put before a judge, since the police reckoned the evidence (the part of the evidence that was safe to release to the public) would not hold up in court.
As a result the Danish citizen is free to return to his old life, with no impediments, and the two Tunisian citizes face being deported to Tunesia.
Their layers will try get them humanitarian amnesty, since Danish law forbids Danish authorities to release people who are likely to be executed, tortured or face serious persecution. (which is why it was such a big scandal when it was showed that Danish troops in the middle east had released prisoners in to the US army, since the US has a track record only slightly better that the previous Iraq government when it comes to handling prisoners)
So as things are now the two Tunisians only recourse to the law is to plead for humanitarian amnesty, since the Danish Security and Intelligence Services decision is final and indisputable.
Posted by: Soren | February 13, 2008 4:11 PM
Soren: Bluntly and at risk of a Godwin, Denmark's "anti-terror" law sounds nearly as fascist as the US's. So much for the wonders of Danish liberalism. I guess that should be obvious from the Danish support of the Iraq War, though. (Disclaimer: Yes, I know, the US is worse, but that doesn't stop me from wishing that other countries would behave well instead of just 1% better than the US.)
Posted by: Dianne | February 13, 2008 4:35 PM
#56 - I'm conscious. Are you? For instance, you now defend your pogrom by claiming that muslims are trying to kill you. Really? Have you tried haldol for this?
I tried to let you of the hook, suggesting you were just venting, but your renewed defense of your earlier post is whacked. As others have reasonably suggested, these people are best met with derision, not bricks and bats.* In case you still don't get what I was saying, I'll spell it out: Nazis used street thugs to advance their aims; you advocate for a similar approach; I point out the similarities in order to convince you the idea is perhaps not so good.
*Gratuitous Annie Hall reference.
Posted by: anonymous dave | February 13, 2008 4:38 PM
dzho @ # 71 Laughing at the deranged religionists is
certainly not going to impress or get their attention.
How about a bat and a laugh?
Anyway, the source of the attentive little booklets was
INDEPENDENT PUBLICATIONS of Paterson, New Jersey. They
were a Freethought outlet, by mail, and they went out of
business a long time ago, as I have had these booklets
and other freethought material for at least thiry years.
They published some great stuff, Joseph Lewis, Ingersoll,
and many more names known only to us rationalists.
They don't appear on Google so I assume they are gone.
Heck, you can make your own booklets or any size that just
gets the religionists attention. Make sure you use lower
case "g" on that freaking word! Good luck!
Posted by: Holbach | February 13, 2008 4:43 PM
For those commenting on the innocuousness of the offending "bomb-head" cartoon. Go back and read comment #4 by Gene. Nobody paid attention to the published Danish cartoons until several unpublished illustrations were added to the collection. One of these new additions showed Mohammed with an infant bride, protraying him as a lecherous pedophile, while another had Mohammed kneeling in prayer towards Mecca while being fucked by a dog. These cartoons were then shopped around the muslim world to stir up trouble. There's more to this story than the superficial coverage it has received.
Posted by: C Barr | February 13, 2008 4:50 PM
#76
More than that, and which I do not think was sufficiently pointed out, was that those four cartoons were forged by the nutcases shopping the cartoons around.
Posted by: raatrani | February 13, 2008 5:27 PM
"Why in the world should PZ feel regret for posting this? Are you implying that this will provoke an attack in Morris, thereby making it his fault?"
No, not at all. Merely, that it is not a paticularly enviable position to put yourself in. Christopher Hitchens, for example, routinely gets recieves threats suggesting that he children are vulnerable as a result of his public positions. Now obviously you can't guard against every nutjob but it just seemed ill-advised.
Posted by: Lev | February 13, 2008 5:42 PM
Then the terrorists win.
Posted by: Steve_C | February 13, 2008 6:08 PM