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  1. #1 Janine, ID
    March 16, 2008

    Hey! Why are The Four Horsemen Of The Atheist Apocalypse all white men?

    Otherwise, sound damned good to me.

  2. #2 Hank Fox
    March 16, 2008

    Jeez, talk about bad horse anatomy! (My cowboy roots are showing.)

    For some reason this reminds me of how I always see zombie movies as extremely obvious metaphors for Christian rule of society. They stagger around lusting after your brrainzz, and your only hope is to hide all the time.

    I’m just glad some of us are finally venturing out with the cricket bats.

  3. #3 Hank Fox
    March 16, 2008

    Actually, when I clicked through and looked at the whole strip, I kinda liked it. :)

  4. #4 Glen Davidson
    March 16, 2008

    It’s impossibly utopian, and oblivious to the pitfalls in the paths to such dreams.

    Frankly, it should be considered a bit embarrassing for us, since it seems to support Hedges’ claims of atheists believing in the natural goodness of humanity.

    Not that the goals presented aren’t in the main admirable.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

  5. #5 danley
    March 16, 2008

    Why the hell not? Better than the shit in Revelations.

  6. #6 windy
    March 16, 2008

    Hitchens is Equality? That’s harsh, man.

  7. #7 MAJeff, OM
    March 16, 2008

    Hitchens is Equality? That’s harsh, man.

    Thank you! I saw him wearing the HRC equal sign and was like, “Not a chance on earth of that happening. Never.”

  8. #8 Blake Stacey
    March 16, 2008

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali would have made a much better Equality, I think.

  9. #9 Bertram Cabot, Jr.
    March 16, 2008

    When the nuclear weapons and other wmds placed in the hands of waring gangs called nations by Atheistic Scientists (and Dawkins assures us most scientists are atheists) are finally used, then we will see what you think of the atheist apocalyse.

    Remember, FUNDIES only TALK about the end of the world.

    Atheistic Scientists have made it possible.

    If you place weapons in the hands of gangs, you are just as responsible as they are.

  10. #10 luke
    March 16, 2008

    That was really good. I’m a little upset though because I had almost the same idea. Not apocalypse-based, but it did have Dawkins and Dennett as superheroes.

  11. #11 Sili
    March 16, 2008

    I like how the world is shinier (and metric!) post-Apocalypse.

  12. #12 Skwee
    March 16, 2008

    Look at the sign in the last panel:
    “Would you like a free dictionary? Call the Gideons at….”
    Cool.

  13. #13 BaldApe
    March 16, 2008

    “Jeez, talk about bad horse anatomy!”

    I thought they were giant My Little Ponies.

    You gotta love how the newspaper headlines and the signs on the store changed.

  14. #14 Kseniya
    March 16, 2008

    Wow… I never thought about it that way before.

    All the nations of the world lived side by side in perfect harmony for millenia until, ONE DAY, Atheist Scientists put NUCLEAR WEAPONS in their unwilling hands!

    That’s one heck of a point you’ve got there, Bernie. *eyeroll*

  15. #15 Alex
    March 16, 2008

    I approve of this comic very much.

  16. #16 Zarquon
    March 16, 2008

    If you place weapons in the hands of gangs, you are just as responsible as they are.

    Yeah? When you’ve convinced the NRA of this I might believe you mean it.

  17. #17 Romeo Vitelli
    March 16, 2008

    “You gotta love how the newspaper headlines and the signs on the store changed.”

    Heh, missed that the first time round. I always did like the idea of the Rapture with all the fundies being caught up and the rest of us free on Earth to live our lives without them. Bring it, heavenly Dude.

  18. #18 Sastra
    March 16, 2008

    Reminds me of Unitarian Jihad.

    As for the 4 horsemen all being “white men,” the concept was obviously taken from the “Four Horsemen” video on richarddawkins.net — Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchins. A group discussion you can watch online or purchase.

    I thought the cartoon made an excellent point against all the ‘rebuttals’ to the so-called New Atheists which insist that atheists they want to “impose” their atheist views on the world. No, they want to “impose” their rational, humanistic, progressive views on the world. Behold the new apocalypse and tremble!

  19. #19 Kamikaze189
    March 16, 2008

    It’s a little utopianistic, but Hedges can bite me. I liked it.

  20. #20 arachnophilia
    March 16, 2008

    as long as they still take the fundies, it’s all good.

    and hitchens? i hesitate to use a phrase like “atheist fundamentalist” on a blog like pharyngula, but having heard him speak on real time with bill maher last week, i have to say… it sure sounds like the guy has just traded hats. rejecting god does not instantly make a person rational or in-touch with reality. the man was supporting every political talking point the fundies usually gather behind — obama is a muslim, saddam hussein was connected to al-qaeda…

    surely if one wishes to represent atheism as the rational choice, they should try to base their other opinions on things like evidence and reason as well, lest they not be taken seriously. because spouting the same kinds of counter-factual and ignorant drivel your opponents do sure doesn’t make your position look all that different.

  21. #21 Ichthyic
    March 16, 2008

    the man was supporting every political talking point the fundies usually gather behind — obama is a muslim, saddam hussein was connected to al-qaeda…

    yes, I saw that too and was surprised PZ didn’t jump on that.

    meh, I rather think Hitch is like a party guest you invite to see if he will be wearing his lampshade or not.

    he was wearing the lampshade that night.

  22. #22 Skwee
    March 16, 2008

    @Blake Stacey:
    She should have somehow been included in there, only because she is a truly inspiring figure. “Four Horsemen(Plus Horsewoman)”, perhaps?

    @Kamikaze189:
    Agreed.

  23. #23 MAJeff, OM
    March 16, 2008

    meh, I rather think Hitch is like a party guest you invite to see if he will be wearing his lampshade or not.

    I don’t own enough liquor to invite Hitch to a party, and I don’t have enough money to buy it.

  24. #24 arachnophilia
    March 16, 2008

    @Ichthyic:

    boy was he ever. i was very surprised to see him as the token conservative that night. not that all conservatives are crazy fundies — bill maher has a rather good history of getting reasonable and rational conservatives on his show. but i really… expected more of hitchens.

    and he started to trot out that solar god nonsense from that paranoid conspiracy theorist video “zeitgeist”… wow. this is a man who writes books on religion, and can’t even fact-check crap like that? there goes any respect i had for him.

  25. #25 Brent
    March 16, 2008

    I also like how everything’s gone metric, post-apocalypse. Note the price of onions…

    Great strip!

  26. #26 Ichthyic
    March 16, 2008

    heh, the “token conservative” for this weeks show was one of Chimpy McGrin’s old political strategists…

    he was eaten alive by the audience after he tried to suggest Bush had done nothing at all wrong or corrupt during his entire presidency.

    I can’t recall ever hearing such a loud and sustained series of boos, or a larger look of shock and disgust from both Bill and the rest of the panel members.

    Bill spent the next 2 minutes doing a rendition of “let me count the ways”.

    I turned it off at that point; no need to rehash old news.

  27. #27 arachnophilia
    March 16, 2008

    i must have missed that one. i’ll see if i have it on-demand.

    actually, there was this one episode where the audience was so loud they had to stop the show and kick people out. apparently, a bunch of 9/11 conspiracy theorists got into the audience…

  28. #28 Ichthyic
    March 16, 2008

    i must have missed that one. i’ll see if i have it on-demand.

    Bob Costas was one of the other guests; he often surprises me with his breadth of knowledge and his eloquence, considering he is primarily a sports commentator/analyst. It was an interesting show until ex-strategist decided to try to defend Bush by sticking his head in the sand.

  29. #29 Corey
    March 16, 2008

    And for some reason Tiptoe Through the Tulips is playing? Am I missing something?

  30. #30 s1mplex
    March 16, 2008

    Atheistic Scientists have made it possible.

    Mr. Cabot, sir!

    You seem to have completely screwed up one of your own Fundie Talking Points!

    Just to refresh your memory, ya’ll have already claimed Einstein (and others) as fellow god-botherers.

    Try again.

  31. #31 Andrew James
    March 16, 2008

    Too bad there won’t be on huh?

    I’m wondering where Hitchens’ glass of scotch on the rocks was. And the cig, where were his cigs?

    They ought to print those cartoons and leave them on seats in NYC subway cars.

  32. #32 Jeff Fecke
    March 17, 2008

    To be fair, there will be an atheist apocalypse. I mean, the Sun’s only got about 4.5 billion years of life left, and a few hundred quadrillion years from now the universe hits heat death. Okay, it’s a bit remote and lacking in panache, but still…

  33. #33 Thanny
    March 17, 2008

    Having Hitchens for equality makes perfect sense, if you actually read what the guy writes, and don’t just latch onto the crap he spews about Iraq.

    I find it amusing that so many people can’t handle partial agreement. Either they agree with everything another person says, or they disown that person entirely.

  34. #34 Ichthyic
    March 17, 2008

    I find it amusing that so many people can’t handle partial agreement. Either they agree with everything another person says, or they disown that person entirely.

    not the point.

    this is the point:

    this is a man who writes books on religion, and can’t even fact-check crap like that?

    for someone who pleads the case for rationality, to entirely abandon evidence based reasoning in favor of a particular political position smells just wrong.

    It’s not a difference of opinion that’s at issue, it’s an obvious difference in reasoning he exhibits on specific issues. It weakens his position by METHOD, not result.

    if you think everyone who doesn’t like how hitch handled this particular issue is in lockstep on the opinions surrounding the general issue, you’re sadly mistaken.

    but, go right on ahead and paint with the large brush.

    see how far it gets you.

  35. #35 MAJeff, OM
    March 17, 2008

    I find it amusing that so many people can’t handle partial agreement. Either they agree with everything another person says, or they disown that person entirely.

    In addition to what ichthyic just said, I’d encourage you to look up an threads on this site regarding the use of torture. You’ll see some mixed reaction to Harris’s work, and not complete rejection or acceptance.

    But I can see how that doesn’t fit with the narrative you want.

  36. #36 Doug
    March 17, 2008

    I wonder if that comic pissed off Chris Hedges. The Atheist Apocalypse brings about changes and life is slightly better.

  37. #37 Blake Stacey
    March 17, 2008

    I disagree with Richard Dawkins about the reason why physicists are not gung-ho for Smolin’s hypothesis of evolutionary selection of universes, about the role “Bible studies” should play in cultural education, and about the relative rhetorical strengths of the Ultimate 747 and the Problem of Evil. I disagree with Michael Shermer about most everything concerning economics, particularly when he yokes libertarianism to evolutionary psychology, and about the origins of religion. I disagree with Hector Avalos about the merit of Baudrillard and the religious content of The Simpsons. I disagree with PZ Myers about the movie The Golden Compass.

    See? It’s easy!

  38. #38 PZ Myers
    March 17, 2008

    You…you…you disagree with your lords and masters?

    I may have to ban you.

  39. #39 Karl
    March 17, 2008

    Hahaha, I like how in the shop window they switch from the imperial system to the metric system.

  40. #40 Bee
    March 17, 2008

    I think the comic is hilarious – reminds me of an old harold head comic, except the drawing is not as good. (Before we had computers, sonny, we were able to draw things re-e-e-al good with just our fingers and a Rapidograph…)

  41. #41 Djur
    March 17, 2008

    Having Hitchens for equality makes perfect sense, if you actually read what the guy writes

    You must be a man, because that is funny.

  42. #42 Greta Christina
    March 17, 2008

    I just love that they’re all riding ponies.

    The Four Ponies of the Apocalypse. Mommy, can I have one?

  43. #43 Greta Christina
    March 17, 2008

    And what Blake said. The atheists I know are perfectly capable of admiring people and being informed and inspired by them, while still not agreeing with everything they say.

    Especially Hitchens. He really is like the brilliant but embarassing drunk uncle at the party, isn’t he? Half the time you’re floored by his wit and insight; the other half you want to crawl under the sofa and die from embarassment, praying to your non-existent Gods that he’ll pass out, if it just means he’ll shut up.

  44. #44 Bride of Shrek
    March 17, 2008

    I like the fact that changes have been made to the measurement system, the rates of STD’s are down, Gideons are selling dictionaries and life as we know it is just much better.

    Except for the fact that facially pierced teenagers still talk and dress the same. No power on earth can change that.

  45. #45 Slyer
    March 17, 2008

    There is another comic on that site about Evolution vs Creationism, but I don’t get it. :(
    http://www.viruscomix.com/page412.html

  46. #46 Slyer
    March 17, 2008

    And:
    http://www.viruscomix.com/page409.html
    :D

    I like this comic.

  47. #47 tus
    March 17, 2008

    afraid i didnt see hitchens on real time and im not sure what you mean about “solar god” thing from zeitgeist. (the religious section was the only part of that movie that was at least slightly accurate…of course it suffers from many of the factual inaccuracies as their accounts of history and the facts behind the 9/11 incidents…but never the less the inheritance of much of biblical literature…least of the old testiment, from egyptian religion is pretty accurate. the equating of the celtic cross to the cross of the zodiac i havent followed up on but remain skeptical (on the one hand the indigenous celtic religion was based largely on the movement of the stars and the seasons so the existance of a cross of the zodiac in celtic regions would be probable and the tendancy of the christian religion not to totaly overwrite but to assymilate existing religious symbology is well documented…however as an issue of “did it happen” opposed to “could it happen” without propper research i couldnt comment))

    hitchens has to be there because he is one of the 4 horsemen…i couldnt quite think of what he would be the horseman of (save alchohol…)

    hitchens is cool, i dont agree with his stance in iraq but i do agree with his reasoning to an extent…he makes a good case for himself at least. he is interesting to watch in many cases, most interesting on fox news because they like to cut people off who they disagree with and never let them speak and hitchens is pretty good about never leting them do that. also its funny how he always looks pissed to be there.

    were it not for the necessity of the 4 horseman theme id have pz take hitchens place.

  48. #48 antaresrichard
    March 17, 2008

    Bertram Cabot, Jr., the name of ‘The Man Who Was Never Born'; whose mom, Noelle, would issue in the end to all “future Christmases”… Sorry, sorry, I just flashed back to an old television anthology.

  49. #49 Chris
    March 17, 2008

    I like the fact that changes have been made to the measurement system, the rates of STD’s are down, Gideons are selling dictionaries and life as we know it is just much better.

    Did you also notice that buildings in the city went from having crosses on their roofs, to having telescopes on their roofs? (not that having a telescope in a built up area would be of much use, but the idea is still cool).

  50. #50 Kanaio
    March 17, 2008

    God, have I underestimated atheism. The cartoon seems to suggest that science, reason, equality and progress are synonymous with atheism. Or perhaps the horsemen are just smug self-aggrandizing old men. Where’s my cigar? Let’s just hope they have ridden off into the sunset for good. Hey, they left behind science, reason, equality and progress. Oh, I get it! Those things were here all the time. BTW, Reason knows shit about love. Or to put it more politely, that’s not what the poets say.

    Damn straight, there will be no atheist apocalypse. That’s the whole point right? Well, perhaps an apoptosis or two. Who says we are not biologically altruistic. I did love the irony.

  51. #51 Marc Buhler
    March 17, 2008

    Just to (kinda) change the subject for a second…..

    In Sydney and in the Gold Coast there are a couple of “Ministries” that have just been reported in the SMH newspaper as using exorcism to treat eating disorders….

    They say “these American-sytle ministries….”, but my word, Ken Ham has a lot to answer for….

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/exorcism-for-the-sick/2008/03/16/1205602195122.html

    (I e-mailed this to PZ a short while ago…. might of given him the link to page 7 of the story – but PZ’s a smart guy. ;)

    (signed) marc

  52. #52 Michael X
    March 17, 2008

    Reason knows shit about love? Really?

    So I can’t reasonably judge the claims of two teenagers claiming to be in love by their actions? Or state that a man who abuses his wife, yet still claims to love her, is incorrect?

    Or is that to rational? Maybe you should go ask a poet.

  53. #53 Steve13
    March 17, 2008

    “the man was supporting every political talking point the fundies usually gather behind — obama is a muslim”

    Hitchens never said Obama was a muslim, he said that the minister at the church Obama goes to is a supporter of Louis Farrakhan from the Nation of Islam, just look up Farrakhan’s wikipedia page and you’ll see why it would be not a wise decision on Obama’s part to be involved with these men.

  54. #54 Azkyroth
    March 17, 2008

    When the nuclear weapons and other wmds placed in the hands of waring gangs called nations by Atheistic Scientists (and Dawkins assures us most scientists are atheists) are finally used, then we will see what you think of the atheist apocalyse.

    Remember, FUNDIES only TALK about the end of the world.

    Atheistic Scientists have made it possible.

    If you place weapons in the hands of gangs, you are just as responsible as they are.

    Yes, scientists have been horribly deficient in their jobs as the world’s nannies.

    …idiot…

  55. #55 bladeScythe
    March 17, 2008

    Now that was awesome

  56. #56 Azkyroth
    March 17, 2008

    BTW, Reason knows shit about love. Or to put it more politely, that’s not what the poets say.

    The poets you’re thinking of still haven’t figured out that the heart is a muscle that pumps blood. What are you getting at here?

  57. #57 Torbjörn Larsson, OM
    March 17, 2008

    That’ll be the day … when horses fly? Where’s the panache, I want winged unicorns!

    Otherwise an improvement on the original. I just wish this will scare the doomsday cults – but that is beyond the apocalypse and into nirvana.

    I mean, the Sun’s only got about 4.5 billion years of life left, and a few hundred quadrillion years from now the universe hits heat death.

    IIRC Phil Plait, the Bad Astronomer, claimed that the increase in solar radiation as the sun grows older will cook the biosphere in 100 – 200 My. (The radiation level is up 70 % or so from when our sun initially hit stability.)

    You might want to buy his book about the various ways the universe may kill you when it hits the book stands later this year. Another possibly apocalyptic event closer from now is when the Milky Way and Andromeda interacts for the first time in about 3-4 Gy, on their way to aggregate to Milkmeda. (Or maybe you want to keep it open for Androway if you can’t decide.)

    If intelligence over muscle was somehow contingent on the previous mass extinction (though I don’t see necessarily why), it was ironic. Or possibly about time, depending on your opinion about migration.

  58. #58 Torbjörn Larsson, OM
    March 17, 2008

    That’ll be the day … when horses fly? Where’s the panache, I want winged unicorns!

    Otherwise an improvement on the original. I just wish this will scare the doomsday cults – but that is beyond the apocalypse and into nirvana.

    I mean, the Sun’s only got about 4.5 billion years of life left, and a few hundred quadrillion years from now the universe hits heat death.

    IIRC Phil Plait, the Bad Astronomer, claimed that the increase in solar radiation as the sun grows older will cook the biosphere in 100 – 200 My. (The radiation level is up 70 % or so from when our sun initially hit stability.)

    You might want to buy his book about the various ways the universe may kill you when it hits the book stands later this year. Another possibly apocalyptic event closer from now is when the Milky Way and Andromeda interacts for the first time in about 3-4 Gy, on their way to aggregate to Milkmeda. (Or maybe you want to keep it open for Androway if you can’t decide.)

    If intelligence over muscle was somehow contingent on the previous mass extinction (though I don’t see necessarily why), it was ironic. Or possibly about time, depending on your opinion about migration.

  59. #59 Dale
    March 17, 2008

    …and for a touch of reality…

    http://www.jesusandmo.net/2008/03/14/same/

  60. #60 VronVron
    March 17, 2008

    #49

    When I read the article “They Prayed to Cast Satan from My Body,” I noticed misplaced modifiers in the third paragraph:

    “Desperate for help, they had turned to Mercy Ministries suffering mental illness, drug addiction and eating disorders.” While the above sentence may be incorrect grammatically, it certainly does decribe Mercy Ministries, especially the “suffering mental illness” part.

    I really enjoy reading Pharyngula, but unfortunately, I often find grammatical errors, an occupational hazard.

  61. #61 Anders
    March 17, 2008

    Stem cell research, acceptance of gays, sex education not based purely (sic) on abstinence and birth control. Where isn’t this the case today? Have I accidentally traveled back in time to the fifties?

    Come back when you can offer me human cloning, acceptance of paedophiles, sex ed where you’re taught the best way to give oral sex to a guy and artificial uteri.

  62. #62 Hypatia
    March 17, 2008

    Considering that apocalypse means “revelation”, rather than “end of the world in a horrible burning death” it makes a lot of sense.

  63. #63 Matt Heath
    March 17, 2008

    This is mostly pretty well drawn, but never in a million years would I have recognised Sam Harris without he others there. I think I’d have thought it was Wayne Rooney.

  64. #64 GP
    March 17, 2008

    Come on, folks – you’ve all missed the single most important item in the comic:

    The Quebec Nordiques shirt.

    Makes you think, doesn’t it?

  65. #65 Bride of Shrek
    March 17, 2008

    I was wondering what the hell that was on his t-shirt. Ice Hockey- huh, a novelty for someone who lives in the tropics who has a) never seen ice ( except for floating around my G & T) and b)has only ever seen field hockey ( which, by the way Australians RULE at at – sorry for anyone from NZ or India).

  66. #66 Blaidd Drwg
    March 17, 2008

    Marc #49: From the article you linked to: “Instead of the promised psychiatric treatment and support, they were placed in the care of Bible studies students, most of them under 30 and some with psychological problems of their own.”

    Isn’t that sort of a redundant statement?

  67. #67 Michelle
    March 17, 2008

    A nordiques shirt… Now we truly know the world as we know it is coming to an end.

  68. #68 Ricardo Silvestre
    March 17, 2008

    Hitchens should had a glass with whisky on his hand : )

  69. #69 MRL
    March 17, 2008

    @58:

    Acceptance of pedophiles? Heck, no! Treatment of pedophilia as an acknowledged mental illness, maybe.

  70. #70 genewitch
    March 17, 2008

    wtf is with everyone going gaga over abysmally drawn comics? There are a TON of comics that have good art. the whole point of a comic is the synergy of words and pictures. blah. And don’t bring up xkcd. that comic represents “irony”

  71. #71 Moses
    March 17, 2008

    Remember, FUNDIES only TALK about the end of the world.

    Atheistic Scientists have made it possible.

    If you place weapons in the hands of gangs, you are just as responsible as they are.

    Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. | March 16, 2008 9:57 PM

    You must be fucking kidding me. Do you know why Oppenheimer named ground zero “Trinity.” Look to Christianity, our culturally-dominant faith, for his inspiration.

    And whack yourself in the head with a hammer. Maybe it’ll let “teh stoopid” out.

  72. #72 Shellfishgene
    March 17, 2008

    There are some nice details in there, in addition to the metric system also the church in the background changed to an observatory, and the headline changed from 1 in 4 girls with STD to 1 in 400 :).

  73. #73 Kseniya
    March 17, 2008

    Treatment of pedophilia as an acknowledged mental illness, maybe.

    Maybe. That’s a tricky one. If pedophilia is truly an orientation, then we may find ourselves in Clockwork Orange territory if we try to “cure” it. However, the point where behaviors associated with that orientation begins to make victims of children is where any similarity to other sexual orientations ends.

  74. #74 Kay
    March 17, 2008

    @ #9 “When the nuclear weapons and other wmds placed in the hands of waring gangs called nations by Atheistic Scientists (and Dawkins assures us most scientists are atheists) are finally used, then we will see what you think of the atheist apocalyse.

    Remember, FUNDIES only TALK about the end of the world.

    Atheistic Scientists have made it possible.

    If you place weapons in the hands of gangs, you are just as responsible as they are.”

    Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. | March 16, 2008 9:57 PM

    Why must you Theists always have such illogical arguments!!! It’s really frustrating and makes intelligent discussion an impossibility. Can you please, please, please ask your theological universities to add some classes in critical thinking and/or (preferably both) logic?

    When was the last time a war was waged by scientists (we’re not gonna count Dr. Evil or any of the Spiderman movies). Scientists don’t wage wars, it rather disrupts their time in the lab. The majority of wars have been waged by theists regarding theological issues in order to rub-out an opposing theology or it’s peoples.

  75. #75 peterbr
    March 17, 2008

    Hm, I have to agree with Thanny here. I hate to use the “D word”, but it is a bit dogmatic to say “Well, no REAL atheist would have these political views.” Hell, he can even be pro-science/reason/equality/progress and still have different political views, or different views an any issue, really. Additionally, while I disagree with Hithens’s view on our involvement in Iraq, I don’t think it can be said his opinion is due to a lack of reasoning ability; the only real evidence for what may have been or still be going on over there is a handful of conflicting reports created by various agencies each with their own pre-formed opinion.

  76. #76 Michael Kremer
    March 17, 2008

    Azkyroth, #54, and Michael X, #50: Re, #48, “Reason knows shit about love.”

    I think his point was this. In the comic, Reason says “You shall behave in a reasonable manner, and from this love shall bloom!” I think #48’s claims are
    (1) love doesn’t work that way
    (2) the poets understand better how love works than this character “Reason” does in the comic.

    Just clarifying the claims here.

  77. #77 Dianne
    March 17, 2008

    If pedophilia is truly an orientation, then we may find ourselves in Clockwork Orange territory if we try to “cure” it.

    It’s not. It’s a paraphilia and associated with mental problems (including other paraphilias) in ways that true orientations (hetero-, homo- or bi-) aren’t. However, as far as I know, it might as well be an orientation as far as our ability to change it goes. Because even after the atheist apocolypse, reality still does suck sometimes.

  78. #78 Marc
    March 17, 2008

    I loved the strip! The art and subject matter of the entire comic reminded me of the Perry Bible Fellowship (not what you think; it’s AWESOME).

    Was Progress James Randi? He should more be skepticism, eh?

  79. #79 mothworm
    March 17, 2008

    Stem cell research, acceptance of gays, sex education not based purely (sic) on abstinence and birth control. Where isn’t this the case today?

    Um, large portions of America? Where do you live? Hell, being against these things has been the actual, publicly stated policy of the US government for as long as Bush has been in office.

    Come back when you can offer me human cloning, acceptance of paedophiles, sex ed where you’re taught the best way to give oral sex to a guy and artificial uteri.

    Well those were….disconcerting…requests. I’m with you on artificial uteri and cloning, but acceptance of pedophiles? Do people think we’re in league with NAMBLA now? And how hard is it to give oral sex to a guy? Why not teach the location and importance of the clitoris in sex ed?

  80. #80 mothworm
    March 17, 2008

    Was Progress James Randi? He should more be skepticism, eh?

    Oh, that’s who that was. I thought it was Darwin. I had no idea who the little guy on the left was. A poorly drawn Sagan, perhaps?

  81. #81 Marc
    March 17, 2008

    No, Progress was Daniel Dennett. I would have preferred another choice of words instead of “Progress”, though.

    Maybe, “free inquiry”, “empiricism” or something along those lines.
    Progress is WAY too ambiguous. Can mean absolutely everything.

  82. #82 Flamethorn
    March 17, 2008

    “Logic shall rule the seven continents”

    That’s harsh. We can leave Antarctica for the superstitious, surely? (They can have faith-based heating.)

  83. #83 MAJeff, OM
    March 17, 2008

    Stem cell research, acceptance of gays, sex education not based purely (sic) on abstinence and birth control. Where isn’t this the case today? Have I accidentally traveled back in time to the fifties?

    You’re not from the States, are you?

    Come back when you can offer me human cloning, acceptance of paedophiles, sex ed where you’re taught the best way to give oral sex to a guy and artificial uteri.

    Because, of course, no one needs to know about the clitoris, and the Catholic Church already teaching acceptance of that paedophilia thing, at least among its priests.

  84. #84 David Marjanovi?, OM
    March 17, 2008

    the religious content of The Simpsons.

    “This book does not provide any answers!!!”

    Was Progress James Randi?

    No, Daniel Dennett. You must be using an adblocker.

  85. #85 David Marjanovi?, OM
    March 17, 2008

    the religious content of The Simpsons.

    “This book does not provide any answers!!!”

    Was Progress James Randi?

    No, Daniel Dennett. You must be using an adblocker.

  86. #86 Peter Ashby
    March 17, 2008

    Guys the point about the price of onions was not just that it was in Kilos. It went from 30c/1b to 15c/kg. I’ll translate that, there are roughly 4.51b per kg. So the old price was $1.35c/kg, through the wonder of reason, science, progress and fairness food got cheaper!

    I also loved the bit in the comic with the beasts, that they lived at No.665.

  87. #87 mothworm
    March 17, 2008

    the religious content of The Simpsons.

    “Martin was like Jesus, only real!”

  88. #88 Brownian, OM
    March 17, 2008

    And how hard is it to give oral sex to a guy?

    You’ve not been in the dating scene recently, eh mothworm?

    Remember, FUNDIES only TALK about the end of the world.

    More fill in the blanks fun! Remember, FUNDIES only TALK about…

    …morality.

    …truth.

    …family values.

    …love.

    Challenge your friends!

  89. #89 Sastra
    March 17, 2008

    With Richard Dawkins first representing Science, I had expected Daniel Dennett would represent Philosophy — instead of “Progress.” After all, he is a philosophy professor.

    That would have been nice. So many of the attacks on atheism have tried to claim that morals and meaning are exclusive to a belief in God. There’s no “beauty” or “love” in a materialist worldview, because that’s the magisterium of Religion. Atheists have no way to even address the issues, blah blah blah.

    No, ethics and aesthetics and “how shall we live?” all fall nicely under the rubric of “philosophy.” Philosophy is secular. Critics tend to avoid that fact because it weakens their case against the “hollowness” of secularism considerably. I would have liked to see special note of that, but of course, it’s just a cartoon, so you get what you get…

  90. #90 Don't Panic
    March 17, 2008

    Peter,

    there are roughly 4.51b per kg

    Ah, no, not really:

    1 kilogram = 2.20462262 pounds

    Google is your friend.

  91. #91 Rey Fox
    March 17, 2008

    “I would have liked to see special note of that, but of course, it’s just a cartoon, so you get what you get…”

    Yeah, especially since there was a lot of overlap in the respective speeches of Dennett and Harris.

  92. #92 Jason Failes
    March 17, 2008

    Glen #4 “Frankly, it should be considered a bit embarrassing for us, since it seems to support Hedges’ claims of atheists believing in the natural goodness of humanity.”

    Hedge and those of his ilk are really, really stuck in the naturalistic fallacy, whereas I see no contradiction between having a nasty nature and still holding high ideals. People can be nasty and cruel and still aim for a better future.

    Indeed, I would argue that what has made our society so much better than those in the past is not so much an improvement in morality as in accountability (thank you CSI), and the exploitation of some of those urges (ex greed) to pro-social ends (in NA, for example, we are much better off channeling our greed into legal capatalistic pursuits than by mugging random strangers off the street)

  93. #93 Michael X
    March 17, 2008

    Michael @75
    You’re too kind to him to clarify the thoughts behind a fallacious claim. Though I still don’t see how more people acting reasonably wouldn’t increase the number of possible people one could fall in love with, by removing the delusions that hamper their social interactions. How many jihadists might really be into bowling and Chubby Checker, and become acceptable mates for an ever decreasing group of people, if they could only be more reasonable? More rationality could very well play a part in making more love.

    Even if you find such reasoning thin (or utopian), stating that reason thus has shit to do with love, and citing poets as authorities, does not follow. Reason does play a role in mature, adult love. Now, tell me that reason knows shit about lust and maybe I’d be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt.

  94. #94 Peter Ashby
    March 17, 2008

    Dammit, in my defense I have been brewing ginger beer and 4.5 litres to the gallon (UK gallon that is) must have got stuck in my head and I know how I got it wrong, there is roughly 450g in the damn lb!

  95. #95 HalfMooner
    March 17, 2008

    I love that cartoon. I like especially how the cartoonist has used blood-dripping text for the horrible pronouncements of secular “doom.”

    I had earlier done a parody of a comic book cover, using the “Four Horsemen” motif (borrowed from those You Tube discussions). Mine’s a lot briefer, but has the same atheists. (Click my handle for my version.)

    GMTA, and so do some of us lesser lights.

  96. #96 Fry
    March 17, 2008
  97. #97 clamboy
    March 17, 2008

    The immediate sniping at details of the strip supports my growing cynicism. Damn, some of us are so #%@*-ing petty.

    It’s…a…comic…strip.

  98. #98 tus
    March 17, 2008

    “And how hard is it to give oral sex to a guy?”
    you might be surprised…to give it…maybe not too hard…to give it well…thats another story. even more so when you get into deepthroat.

    “It’s not. It’s a paraphilia and associated with mental problems”
    i should mention that until recently homosexuality was catagorized as a paraphilia as well.

    pedophilia however, even where it an actual orientation, would not be able to be accepted. because it still places the child in harm, at least psychologically. as far as i know there is no cure for pedophilia…they are just kept away from children, quarrentine…
    though evidence does show means by which it can come about, early awakening of sexuality in children for instance…often as a result of sexual abuse or of sex at too early an age…but again there were similar claims of homosexuality for some time as well (about the same mechanic actually…being sexualy abused as a child…almost seems like a scapegoat..)

    its just a very tricky situation that legislation would have a hard time dealing with.

  99. #99 Anders
    March 17, 2008

    “Stem cell research, acceptance of gays, sex education not based purely (sic) on abstinence and birth control. Where isn’t this the case today?”

    ‘Um, large portions of America? Where do you live? Hell, being against these things has been the actual, publicly stated policy of the US government for as long as Bush has been in office.’

    Uhm, Sweden.

    “Come back when you can offer me human cloning, acceptance of paedophiles, sex ed where you’re taught the best way to give oral sex to a guy and artificial uteri.”

    ‘Well those were….disconcerting…requests. I’m with you on artificial uteri and cloning, but acceptance of pedophiles? Do people think we’re in league with NAMBLA now? And how hard is it to give oral sex to a guy? Why not teach the location and importance of the clitoris in sex ed?’

    The clitoris? Sure, The Art of Cunnilingus could be a part of sex ed too. Sex ed without sex ed isn’t really sex ed. To support NAMBLA sounds like an excellent idea, the gay rights movement have already won – the few things still left to do can be handed over to careerists who will gladly do it so they will have something nice to write in their curriculum vitaes – so thinking progressives need something else to do.

  100. #100 shane
    March 17, 2008

    “Logic shall rule the seven continents”
    That’s harsh. We can leave Antarctica for the superstitious, surely? (They can have faith-based heating.)

    You’ll probably find Antarctica probably has the highest proportion of atheist/free thinkers of all the continents. Most of the people down there are scienticians after all.

    Send the superstitious to somewhere they’re already familiar with. Kansas? Saudi Arabia? Florida?

  101. #101 mothworm
    March 17, 2008

    To support NAMBLA sounds like an excellent idea, the gay rights movement have already won – the few things still left to do can be handed over to careerists who will gladly do it so they will have something nice to write in their curriculum vitaes – so thinking progressives need something else to do.

    I have absolutely no idea what you’re saying here.

  102. #102 Anders
    March 18, 2008

    There’s no need for real progressives to care about the gay rights movement anymore, let ambitious moderates do that.

  103. #103 mothworm
    March 18, 2008

    Oh I get it now. You’re trolling. Sorry that took me so long, but I recently stopped drinking Coke, and I’m still a little groggy.

  104. #104 kanaio
    March 18, 2008

    #75 Michael Kremer, Thanks brah.

    #91 Michael X, I’m sorry I can’t think of a rational response, I’m chuckling too much. Certainly, love and reason inform each other. Must I have reason to love? I don’t think so.

    #56 Azkyroth, Love often gets through when reason alone would fail. Let reason work out the details. It’s good at that.

    Intuition and empathy are powerful aspects of love, both will trump reason. One of my my favorite poets is a 14th century Sufi mystic by the name of Hafiz:

    “I have estimated the influence of Reason upon Love and found that it is like that of a raindrop upon the ocean, which makes one little mark upon the water’s face and disappears.”

  105. #105 Doug S.
    March 18, 2008

    We atheists don’t have an Apocalypse. We have a Singularity. ;)

  106. #106 Anders
    March 18, 2008

    “Oh I get it now. You’re trolling. Sorry that took me so long, but I recently stopped drinking Coke, and I’m still a little groggy.”

    That wasn’t my intent, no.

  107. #107 mothworm
    March 18, 2008

    So, you’re honestly saying that gay people have achieved full equality, and that progressives should now turn our attention to making it easier for children to be terrorized by sexual predators.

  108. #108 Michael X
    March 18, 2008

    Kanaio,
    I’ll take your chuckles in a light hearted manner and just remind you that by your own admission reason does know shit about love. Reason informs the emotions as emotions inform reason. Neither are perfectly detached from each other, and you must be aware that a sufi mystic doesn’t tip the scales in arguing otherwise.

    I will naturally admit that reason isn’t the major force, but it plays its role, and an important one at that. And if it played a larger role in certain peoples lives, just think of all the Chubby Checker fans that could find mates!

  109. #109 Anders
    March 20, 2008

    “So, you’re honestly saying that gay people have achieved full equality, and that progressives should now turn our attention to making it easier for children to be terrorized by sexual predators.”

    I don’t think I said any of those, no. But anyway, what I said doesn’t concern you.

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