…and this is a 
300 million dead
Category: Politics
Posted on: March 25, 2008 9:49 AM, by PZ Myers
Last night, I attended a talk by Sherman Alexie, who was hilarious and at times, biting. One of the curious things he noted, though, was that he had said something about the disastrous conduct of the wasteful war in Iraq, and despite this being an audience of collegiate liberals, no one applauded. He noted that this is his common experience — it used to be that voicing your objections to an unjust war got clapped, but nowadays, it's old hat. Even people who once supported the war are backing away from it (although it's rare for them to plainly say "I was wrong"), and the futility of the war has simply lapsed into the status of a given. It has become the background noise of our country. Protest has been ground out of us by the dreary dun of corruption and destruction and the unresponsiveness of our government — we are in a democracy with a large majority opposed to the war, to no effect and with no expectation that our representatives will actually act to end the killing.
So now we have reached the nice round milestone of 4,000 dead in Iraq. 4000 dead American soldiers, that is; it's almost as if the two orders of magnitude greater number of slaughtered Iraqis, the millions of refugees, the destruction of an entire country, simply don't matter and don't count. Americans find it hard to gather outrage over thousands of our own dead, and tens of thousands wounded, and they sure as hell aren't going to get stirred up over hundreds of thousands of dead foreigners.
I don't get it.
As a nation, we stand atop a pedestal of bones and ruined lives. The disruption of families is ongoing, and our honor has been thrown away by the greed and ignorance of our leaders. And yet we carry on as if nothing is happening, nothing is wrong, no action need be taken. We will have an election, and one of the candidates stands for amplifying our involvement in this evil chaos … and he stands a chance of winning. The monsters who have perpetrated this crime will walk away to fat retirement checks and lives of wealth in the service of bloated corporate sponsors, and they will not pay — you will.
We all have blood on our hands, and no one cares.
Once, four dead in Ohio could stir us. Now, four thousand dead, a hundred thousand dead, it doesn't matter … we have all become dead inside.
Comments
"And yet we carry on as if nothing is happening, nothing is wrong, no action need be taken."
Time to drag up that old verse:
"The best lack all conviction..."
Posted by: CalGeorge | March 25, 2008 10:08 AM
How do I post a moment of silence?
Well spoken PZ.
Posted by: The Other Dan from Wisconsin | March 25, 2008 10:08 AM
And three trillion spent.
Posted by: danley | March 25, 2008 10:08 AM
And that's just the 4000 they officially count. If you're shot in Iraq, but die on the plane to the hospital in Germany, you are not counted as a casualty in Iraq. And DoD doesn't even count dead American contractors. This whole mess has been about lies on top off lies.
Posted by: Cappy | March 25, 2008 10:12 AM
We're in the same camp PZ.
Frontline is running a 2 night show on Bush's War. It's available to view online here...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_1_frontlinebrbushswar_2008-03-24
I think there's enough evidence contained in this documentary to convict the neocons for warcrimes. Bastards!
Posted by: SteadyEddy | March 25, 2008 10:12 AM
I agree and have been voicing this same concern for some time now. Just what does it take to get us stirred up enough to act? $10/gallon gas? War with Iran? Rewriting of the constitution in theocratic terms?
We're like a beaten dog who has given up trying to fight back. We just accept the beatings as a part of our existence.
Republicans are bullies and Democrats are cowards. The Dems are like the school nerd who, when the bully isn't around, tells everyone that the NEXT time he sees the bully, he's going to stand up to him and fight back!. But, when the bully shows up, the nerd falls to the ground, curls up in the fetal position, and pisses his pants. It's just part of our existence.
Posted by: Deepsix | March 25, 2008 10:15 AM
This current administration has made damn well sure that most of the public's day-to-day lives are unaffected by this disaster. While prices are slowly and steadily rising, there still isn't a connection with the events overseas. You'll see efforts made in previous wars (victory gardens, "if you ride alone you ride with Hitler" posters produced to encourage conservation of gas, etc.) to actually involve the public in these conflicts, but this administration wants this to be dealt with out of sight, out of mind. They'll keep moving the goalposts until they are out of office, and someone else will clean up this immoral disaster. How about this for an idea? Nobody in this current adminstration (Dubya included) gets any benefits, etc. until this war is over? Have the new President place Dubya and Cheney in posts that oversee this war, and they can't retire until they make good on their promises.......put their own wages on hold!
Posted by: Fire Ant | March 25, 2008 10:17 AM
Just to put this into perspective:
Obviously we shouldn't value the lives of a normal American the same as we value the lives of mostly barbaric, misogynistic, homophobic, chaos-loving Jihadist nutcases, who would love to see the West burned down or enslaved. (That's what all the polls done over there suggest.)
Personally, I think the average Muslim is worse than the average Nazi, and I can't bring myself to care all that much whether such people live or die.
Posted by: JD | March 25, 2008 10:18 AM
Yup. This was the Neocon's war. 9/11 may have been Pearl Harbor, but Iraq wasn't Japan. Or Hitler's Germany. The country went along with it because it wanted a surrogate for bin Laden. Shameful.
Posted by: Kseniya | March 25, 2008 10:19 AM
JD, what is a "normal American"? And are you really just firing for effect, or do you truly believe that nonsense?
Posted by: True Bob | March 25, 2008 10:22 AM
It's a dreary milestone and unfortunately quite a few people view it as a kind of sacred duty to continue the miserable war. After all, if we pull out, aren't we saying that our men & women died in vain? People forget that a soldier's honor lies in his or her personal conduct, not in the worth of the mission on which he or she was dispatched by a disreputable commander. That came home to me in a big way when one of my cousins was killed in Iraq and my mother reacted by saying people in the peace movement should be ashamed of themselves (or perhaps rounded up for incarceration). The people whose policies would have saved my cousin's life, they should be ashamed. The president who sent him to his death, he is an honorable and respectable leader. Mom and I had a lovely shouting match over it. [Link]
Posted by: Zeno | March 25, 2008 10:22 AM
By far the best US anti-war protest placard I've seen was Will somebody PLEASE give Bush a blowjob so we can impeach him?
I'll stay out of this one other than to say that the sane citizens of the "Coalition of the Willing" countries have my sympathy: I can't imagine what it must be like to have such a war waged in my name.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | March 25, 2008 10:24 AM
What Would Jesus Bomb?
Posted by: Eric | March 25, 2008 10:28 AM
4000 dead American soldiers, that is; it's almost as if the two orders of magnitude greater number of slaughtered Iraqis, the millions of refugees, the destruction of an entire country, simply don't matter and don't count.
All the estimates of number dead, including the Roberts' group's which is the highest, are undercounts. I can say this with a great deal of confidence because the Roberts' group's papers estimate no increase in the rate of death from non-violent causes and that seems unlikely to the point of impossible, given what's become of Iraq's medical system, water supply, etc. It may well be three orders of magnitude.
9/11 may have been Pearl Harbor, but Iraq wasn't Japan.
9/11 wasn't Pearl Harbor, but be that as it may, Iraq was in no way involved in the attack. None of the attackers were Iraqi and no link between the Iraqi government and any of them has ever been found. In fact, al Qaeda hated Hussein for being a secular commie and agreed with Bush on the need for him to be overthrown. It's as if after the Pearl Harbor attack FDR had declared war--on China.
Posted by: Dianne | March 25, 2008 10:29 AM
And no sign of a let up. In fact, things are getting worse today. Battles in Basra, Sadr's Mahdi milita taking over arts of Kut, more explosions in the Green Zone. Mission Fuckomplished, Georige.
Posted by: True Bob | March 25, 2008 10:30 AM
One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic.
Stalin was right about that, at least.
Posted by: Carlie | March 25, 2008 10:31 AM
What Would Jesus Bomb?
Posted by: Eric | March 25, 2008 10:31 AM
Sheesh, that should've been "parts of Kut"
Also, Sadr has encouraged "civil disobedience" today. I'm sure that'll work out swimmingly.
Posted by: True Bob | March 25, 2008 10:32 AM
This was an important article. Dugg and Stumbled.
Posted by: josh.f13 | March 25, 2008 10:33 AM
Besides the families of killed or wounded soldiers, no one in this country has been made too uncomfortable by this 'war', at least not in ways they can directly see. There won't be real action until people are moved out of their comfort zone. Would there have been a large, visible movement against the Vietnam war if there hadn't been a draft?
Would any of you miss a week of work to march on Washington? Get arrested? I'm not sure I would. Maybe if thousands of others were doing it too.
Posted by: Pete | March 25, 2008 10:34 AM
I think JD deserves the Carolyn Hax response to any comment so obscene, so absurd, so wrong that it's almost impossible to find words to express the horror felt upon realizing that someone actually holds and expressed such a sentiment:
Wow.
Posted by: Carlie | March 25, 2008 10:35 AM
The thing about this is that most Americans are so disconnected from the reality of war its not personal to them. Its war on tv. My husband served two tdy's in operation enduring freedoom so i know a little about this. Most Americans don't really understand the consequences of war. And what is equally distressing is that, while it is understanable that Americans are focused on the loss of American loss, its NEVER mentioned about the overwhelming loss of Iraqi citizen life. While parents and siblings and spouses are grieving here in Amereica, the same is going on in Iraq, but its forgotten or worse, not brought up at all. Children have been killed during this war, babies, in Iraq and very little is mentioned. Its a total disgrace.
Posted by: atheistkiwi76 | March 25, 2008 10:38 AM
Will somebody PLEASE give Bush a blowjob so we can impeach him?
Ugh. No. Not even for the greater good of the world in general. Can't we just impeach him for crimes against humanity instead?
Besides the families of killed or wounded soldiers, no one in this country has been made too uncomfortable by this 'war', at least not in ways they can directly see.
There are ways, but they're relatively subtle still. For example, veterans are starting to see the care they get at VAs slip as the funding disappears while the number of new patients increases. I expect that crime rates will increase as the untreated PTSD cases decompensate. And so on. But it's hard to connect those things directly to the war (wars: don't forget Afghanistan) and so US-Americans go on happily believing that it isn't their problem.
Posted by: Dianne | March 25, 2008 10:41 AM
Americans are dead inside on this issue because they have become dead both intellectually and spiritually on nearly all issues.
The Moon landing was America's crowing achievement, and it was the moment that America jumped the shark. Today, there's no intellectual or spiritual capital to spend on such grand projects.
Why do I say both intellectual and spiritual? The anti-intellectualism we all know about: The double-whammy of fundamentalism and a lazy, profit-driven fourth estate has eviscerated the intellectual curiosity of the last two generations.
But religion has paradoxically become anti-spiritual. Religions today are much more about what they hate rather than what they love. The Golden Rule has never been a defining aspect of the American ethos, which is much more about individualism and self-reliance. And that essential element of spirituality -- compassion -- has essentially vanished from American religions.
People have grown up having been taught their entire lives that it is okay to be ignorant, angry, and hateful of others. And there is not a single element in American society that is teaching otherwise, not even popular entertainment: The last intellectual hero in American pop culture who had mass appeal was Mister Spock, a character created over forty years ago.
Posted by: Jim Royal | March 25, 2008 10:42 AM
"And yet we carry on as if nothing is happening, nothing is wrong, no action need be taken."
Then take action, if you like. Rise up, and get shot down. Let Morris be the next Fallujah. And before you respond with "they would never do such a thing" or similar platitudes, re-read your own post.
Face it, people are doing nothing because there is nothing that can be done. The Iraqi people excepted, but only because they have nothing left to live for and might as well take a few Americans with them when they go.
Posted by: Anonymous | March 25, 2008 10:43 AM
JD,
So you think the average Muslim is worse than the average Nazi??
And, who, exactly do you mean??
Who was the average Nazi??
After WWII, the vast majority of Germans were just as happy to become an ally of the US (even the ones that weren't able to for a few decades) as they were to be a Nazi (if they ever really were a Nazi).
The only good Kraut is a dead Kraut.
The only good Jap is a dead Jap.
Just a few years later, they were friends and allies.
Don't buy all the propaganda.
Posted by: Rich Beckman | March 25, 2008 10:44 AM
What I also don't understand is why we are so fixated on the 4,000 dead American soldiers. Wartime medicine has advanced to the point where many wounded soldiers that would have died of similar injuries in wars past now survive, albeit often with debilitating handicaps. According to the US military, as of August 2007 there are nearly 30,000 wounded. Mind you some of the wounded make full recoveries, but many don't, and as far as headline statistics are concerned they count even less than Iraqi casualties. And unlike the dead, their suffering sometimes continues for a lifetime.
Posted by: Derek | March 25, 2008 10:46 AM
There's a group who on most days have a table on the sidewalk with a petition and placards calling for the impeachment of Dick Cheney and G.W., and they have been doing this for over three years.
Every week there are anti-war protests in front of our federal building calling for an end to the war, often to the point of blocking traffic.
A local peace protest organized by kids and attended by a small town mayor (of a conservative small town) attended and was a full participant.
How do we make this effective? How many letters have to be written? Or is it also the cowardice of the American people holding us back? We voted these clowns in, and we can't seem to overturn the primary process of political maneuvering to get real change.
I will be stopping by that "Impeach Cheney and Bush" table. Metta.
Posted by: Rjaye | March 25, 2008 10:47 AM
"Personally, I think the average Muslim is worse than the average Nazi, and I can't bring myself to care all that much whether such people live or die." I was in agreement with you till this one. By the term average are you refereeing to the average willing fanatical convert or to all the rest of the poor idiots who had no choice except to join or die.
BTW Saddam did a lot to oppress the Taliban who are the willing convert nut bags we really should be afraid of.
Posted by: vlad | March 25, 2008 10:48 AM
Seriously - I'm open to ideas about how to make the lives of Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield/Wolfowitz/Feith/Rice/etc miserable for the rest of their (hopefully) long lives. I want to make sure that they are afraid to eat in public restaurants, for people spitting in their food. Every speaking event they do should have to be private by necessity. They should be pariahs forever.
Posted by: idahogie | March 25, 2008 10:50 AM
This could very well all end if we could only catch Dubya in the act of getting a blowjob from a whitehouse intern.....
Posted by: me | March 25, 2008 10:52 AM
You are too national-centric. What you describe is the human condition. What made you think that there was some inherent nobility about us? The Constitution? I wished! With callous disregard for the oaths he took, it was the first thing the prime wretch shredded.
Posted by: shirt | March 25, 2008 10:53 AM
This reminds me a little of WW2. While Britain (and most of Europe) had rationing, curfews and blackouts; America actually increased its economic growth. It also helped that WW2 was right on our doorstep as opposed to an ocean away.
Now, we are all in the same position. We don't suffer from a shortage of supplies, the majority of our men are not out fighting (and women haven't had to take their jobs), our countries are growing and this war is a long, long way away. British disapproval of the war in Iraq is still high, though since Prince Harry'r return from 3 weeks on the frontline support of the soldier has grown.
I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing. Although I'm tempted to say the latter, as anything which makes the death of hundreds of thousands of people acceptable is, well, unacceptable.
Posted by: maxi | March 25, 2008 10:54 AM
Not all, just many. The anger needs an outlet. What would anyone do who isn't in the position to force impeachment hearings?
Eventually a catalyst will present itself. Just hope it doesn't take the form of armed mobs looting downtowns.
Posted by: BWE | March 25, 2008 10:58 AM
I just renewed my memberships to Veterans for Peace and the ACLU this last week. I know it's not much, but any of you out there who have thought of doing so before, but haven't for whatever reason... please do similar.
Thanks PZ.
Posted by: Dahan | March 25, 2008 10:59 AM
I am a member of the packerreport.com. We have a section called the Wonk for those of us who like to share our political views. There are only a few I would classify as Dem. or liberal, the rest are hard core xtian/neocon fundies. They cannot grasp that their glorious leader made a huge mistake and many still trumpet the WMD cause or when that gets shattered, they carp about how Iraq is better today than under Saddam. No matter what proof you show them they will not change their views. It's like throwing rocks at a brick wall, or if you like, arguing with IDiots.
Posted by: firemancarl | March 25, 2008 11:01 AM
not all americans are dead. only "people" like JD are. but one could also argue were never alive in the first place. so they can not count as casualties.
Posted by: T_U_T | March 25, 2008 11:01 AM
Thank you, PZ.
Posted by: SabrinaW | March 25, 2008 11:04 AM
P(Arbitrarily selected American is less ravingly fanatical and bloodthirstily barbaric than arbitrarily selected Muslim) >> 0.5. That's one way of elaborating what I said about normal Americans and normal Muslims. So please don't go pretending that my last post is logically flawed.
I'm quite capable of explaining why I feel Muslims are on the whole worse people than Nazis. And I'm talking about the real fundamentalist Nazis. Sure, the bodycount doesn't bear out this opinion, but consider what things would be like if a present-day Muslim nation was a military superpower as Nazi Germany was.
Posted by: JD | March 25, 2008 11:04 AM
I think the reasons why this condition exists is because the government isn't listening to the people. In an interview, Dick Cheney, in response to a question regarding how people are against the war, said, "So?" I believe this is the current administration's approach to dealing with will of the people. It doesn't matter what the people think, all that matters is their own agendas. It's sickening.
Posted by: Vernon Balbert | March 25, 2008 11:04 AM
As a conservative who will reluctantly support a just war, I never supported this adventure in Iraq, having never been presented with evidence that would justify the war. And, as bad as our own casualties are, our young men are required to kill others, which inflicts pain elsewhere, and is also something that will in all likelihood haunt our own young men later in life. These are high prices. My cousin had to, under the rules of engagement, shoot a young man who had dropped his weapon and was fleeing. It had to be done but it's not a pretty thing to have to do.
You will find that other more prominent conservatives, such as Pat Buchanan, also opposed this war in Iraq. Congress, who "pre-approved" Bush to make war, deserves as much blame as the citizens of this country who, like uncritical evolanders supporting applied Darwinism in the 1930s, uncritically soaked up unethical slogans like "better there than here" which essentially means, "let's use our soldiers as terrorist honeypots in Iraq, well, because, we can."
Meanwhile over 100 unborn children are aborted each hour in the United States.(Guttmacher Institute 2008) More unborn children have been aborted in the last two days in the United States than our soldiers who have died in Iraq since the start of this conflict.
Posted by: William Wallace | March 25, 2008 11:04 AM
Iraq may have been the wrong battleground at the wrong time, but this conflict between the Islamic world and the Western world was inevitable. Nothing short of a paranoid isolationism could have prevented it and that ship sailed long ago. Any state that A) can't keep their nutty fundies somewhat in check or is actually RUN by the nutty fundies and B) suppresses individual liberties to the extreme will become destructive to itself and those it interacts with. We are dealing with a 7th century ideology that has access to 21st century technology. The innocent lives that have been lost are truly a tragedy, but the innocents killed by Saddam were just as tragic. The virtual genocide of the Marsh Arabs. The wholesale attacks on the Kurds. These are 2 societies that are now on the road to recovery. Iraqi society is plagued with tribalism and sect animosity that won't disappear if we pull out now. Iran won't stop arming Shia militants who are carrying out attacks on Sunni mosques. Sunni al Qaeda sympathizers won't stop targeting Shia marketplaces. Neither will let up on an organized central Iraqi government.
I understand the emotional appeal that the anti-war supporters carry. But that appeal doesn't line up with the complexities of the situation. I can virtually guarantee you that NO responsible presidential candidate will start pulling troops when those realities are made fully clear to them. Once Clinton or Obama or McCain get into office and they have those first few national security meetings, they will come to the realization that we will be in Iraq and the middle east for a very long time. Troops will draw down, yes, but we will be there. Get used to it.
Posted by: CB | March 25, 2008 11:05 AM
Apart from JD, who is obviously retarded, the comments here in themselves, along with PZ's short post, give a certain comfort to those who don't live in America. At least there are some in America who see the horror of it all and are aghast.
To those who wonder how it all got started, well, it certainly wasn't simply down to the likes of the idiot Bush. Look at the type of thing preached by our own dear Christopher at the time:
"This will be no war, there will be a fairly brief and ruthless military intervention.... The president will give an order. [The attack] will be rapid, accurate and dazzling
It will be greeted by the majority of the Iraqi people as an emancipation. And I say, bring it on."
(C Hitchens 28/01/03)
And now that the bloody mess is recognised by virtually all and sundry as a bloody mess, what does the greasy imposter say? In answer to the question of how he got it so wrong on Iraq he replies "I didn't".
Don't blame Bush alone. He had help. And don't forget the names of those who helped!
Posted by: NMcC | March 25, 2008 11:10 AM
I sympathize with you about the sorry state of American democracy. I continue to be amazed by my fellow countrymen who seem content to stand by and watch as all of our values and morals are thrown out the window. And for what? FEAR.
The terrorist attacks on 9/11 were the gift that the neoconservatives who make up the Bush Administration and the leadership of the GOP have been waiting for; their long-desired "new Pearl Harbor". The level of fear that was cultivated on that day continues to haunt us and has led us into the nightmare we've collectively experienced over the past seven years. Because of fear, many Americans were more than willing to give up their civil liberties in the name of "keeping us safe". Because of fear, Democrats in Congress lost any and all will to be an opposition party and to stand up against the neoconservatives.
The conservative media joined in the game and broadly declared as "un-American" anyone who spoke out against the loss of civil liberties or in favor of treating the so-called "unlawful combatants" with the respect and care due to them by the Geneva Convention. It is because of the paralyzing fear combined with callous opportunism from those in power that Americans are comfortable with Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo - regardless of how inhumane and truly un-American these facilities are.
Fear is the reason we're in this mess and fear is the reason that we can't get out of it. We must find the courage to put the terrorist threat into perspective and understand that al Qaeda
Posted by: Jonathon | March 25, 2008 11:16 AM
As a conservative who will reluctantly support a just war, I never supported this adventure in Iraq, having never been presented with evidence that would justify the war.
Good for you for using your brain and not being blinded by partisan politics. Which can happen to conservatives, liberals, or moderates.
And, as bad as our own casualties are, our young men are required to kill others, which inflicts pain elsewhere, and is also something that will in all likelihood haunt our own young men later in life. These are high prices.
Indeed. A person who survives an atrocity is less likely to have PTSD later in life than one who committs an atrocity. The people who ordered young men and women to commit atrocities at Guantanemo and other places have much to answer for.
However, isn't there a standing order in the US military that a soldier is forbidden to commit a war crime? It is my understanding (though I could have it wrong, having never been in the military myself) that a soldier when ordered to commit a war crime or human rights violation is supposed to respond, "I can not do that, sir, it violates standing order XXX [whatever the number is]." I mention this not to condemn the soldiers who followed their immediate superiors' orders to commit atrocities but in case someone in the military is reading this and might find it useful to know that there may be a way he/she can resist and yet not violate his/her oath.
My cousin had to, under the rules of engagement, shoot a young man who had dropped his weapon and was fleeing. It had to be done but it's not a pretty thing to have to do.
Again, I do not want to criticize your cousin: I wasn't there, I didn't see what he/she did. But how can it be necessary to shoot a person who has dropped his weapon and is fleeing?
Posted by: Dianne | March 25, 2008 11:17 AM
"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
Posted by: Branedy | March 25, 2008 11:17 AM
I hate the war in Iraq, that it happened at all. But other than electing people who promise to pull us out of there, what else can we at the homefront do?
Posted by: Adrienne | March 25, 2008 11:18 AM
*applause*
Well done, PZ.
Posted by: Avekid | March 25, 2008 11:20 AM
4000 dead is significant and I feel sorry for each of their families and honored by the fallen soldiers' memory.
However, PZ, with your 'blood on our hands' pathetic emotive, let's keep things in perspective.
Only 4000 dead for a war?
That's actually extremely low, commparatively:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll
No war is worth someones's life, but this recent war is almost, statistically speaking, neglible.
Funny how you worry about war & death so much and not abortion due to someone's lack of desire to raise their misgivings?
Posted by: philos | March 25, 2008 11:23 AM
Exactly It's tragic for ANY number of people to get killed unnecessarily, whether 4 or 400,000...It's quality, not quantity that counts. And the same goes for money too - e.g. the trillions of dollars wasted since 2003...
Biology can help explain at least some of the dumb behaviour we see, not just by our own tribe, but by other ones. We still use the reptilian and mammalian brain regions. Intelligence and science are exceptions in the world. The Iraq war is just one of hundreds of conflicts, based on outmoded aggression, territoriality, uneven distrubtion of wealth. We show alleigence to our tribes, and revernence to the powerful alpha leader, who cannot be wrong, who by default can get away with murder.
The difference is that, unlike in the past, when people fought with sticks and spears, they now do it with auomatic weapons and smart bombs. That's why dumb people like the Bushes shouldn't be let within a mile of power...
Posted by: PeteK | March 25, 2008 11:23 AM
William Wallace,
"Congress, who "pre-approved" Bush to make war, deserves as much blame as the citizens of this country "
Until that statement, you sounded rational. But with it you've proven yourself an idiot. Blaming Congress for this is like blaming the DMV for someone with a driver's license committing vehicular manslaughter.
Showing more idiocy, you state "Meanwhile over 100 unborn children are aborted each hour in the United States.(Guttmacher Institute 2008) More unborn children have been aborted in the last two days in the United States than our soldiers who have died in Iraq since the start of this conflict."
The levels of stupidity in this comment are so breathtaking, that I don't even have the energy to go into it. Get some help man, you're pathetic. No, I mean really, you need professional help.
Posted by: Dahan | March 25, 2008 11:25 AM
JD is just a troll looking for attention. Ignore his childish nonsense.
PZ, I saw Alexie speak my freshman year of college. That speech changed my life and politics for the better. It's nice to see him inspire righteous outrage in you and through you to your readers. Everybody hold onto that feeling. We need it.
Posted by: Ryan Cunningham | March 25, 2008 11:26 AM
Diane,
"Again, I do not want to criticize your cousin."
Then allow me: His cousin is a sociopath.
"But how can it be necessary to shoot a person who has dropped his weapon and is fleeing?"
Did you not read his post? It was THE RULES. Soldiers are just machines, you see, that follow instructions.
Posted by: Anonymous | March 25, 2008 11:28 AM
Deepsix: you want to know what happes with $10 a gallon gas? Come to the UK. $10.43 down the road from me. No-one's rioting.
There was story in the newspaper this week about a young (British) soldier who had lost an arm and both legs on active duty. The government were trying to weasel out of paying him the maximum compensation. We just read about it, shake our heads and move on.
Posted by: Peter McGrath | March 25, 2008 11:30 AM
What does it take? When does it become ethical to revolt against your government? What atrocity has to be committed to motivate someone to do so? Governments often codify our rights in a document and say, "beyond this point, we will not intrude." Has there ever been a document, written by citizens, telling their government, "beyond this point, we will not allow?"
Posted by: 300baud | March 25, 2008 11:34 AM
(.)(.)
Posted by: wÒÓ† | March 25, 2008 11:34 AM
I don't know, I have some American friends that were getting pretty wound up over $6 a gallon. I just chuckled and told them to wait. She love that 13 mpg jeep then!
Posted by: maxi | March 25, 2008 11:35 AM
Vote for Democrats, all up and down the ballot. I know it's easy to write them all off as "cowards," and I know some of them truly are, but the hard, cold facts are that the Republican Executive Branch has been lying, cheating, and stealing to consolidate its power for 7 years now, and the Republican minority in the U.S. Senate has employed the filibuster to thwart the will of the majority to an extent unprecedented in our history.
I know my congressman personally -- as a campaign volunteer, I had a tiny hand in getting him elected -- and I know him to be hardworking, committed, and definitely not a coward... but it's hard for the House to make any headway on real change in the face of almost certain filibusters and vetos.
I know folks expected everything to change after the 2006 election, but really that was only the first step. What we really need is a Democrat in the White House and a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate; until those conditions obtain, little will change.
I don't care how disappointed you are by a given Democratic candidate, the Dems are the only liferaft on the sinking ship that is this country.
And as for the Dem presidential nomination race... I'm an Obama partisan, but I say this to all partisans of either candidate who threaten that if their person doesn't win they'll stay home/vote Nader/vote McCain: That's a dangerously stupid position to take, and it threatens our nation with doom.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin | March 25, 2008 11:35 AM
William W, why did your god stoopidly design wimmen such that every month they discard a human life? If you want to start comparing numbers, you'd better check out the wholesale slaughter committed by your idol.
I think there are all kinds of factors wrt Iraq. Heck, back in the day, you had to get right up in someone's gril to kill them. Now it's easier - plink away at a distance. And not all the blame is on those crazy tribes who all want to kill each other. Our country has been on a corporate colonialist march for decades or longer. That makes the natives restless - they see all this work, but no benefits, because they have to pay off IMF or world bank, and their puppet-in-power is beholden to his/her western overlords.
Yes it's complicated, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't get the hell out.
Posted by: True Bob | March 25, 2008 11:35 AM
At the risk of derailing the topic, Fuck you, philos, if you are equating abortion to invading someone else's country and murdering children and adults.
As for this comment of yours, "Only 4000 dead for a war?"
Only 4000 Americans. I assume you think the Iraqis don't count? Because a year and a half ago there were already over 650,000 of them.
Posted by: Carlie | March 25, 2008 11:36 AM
PETER McGRATH
Are you sure your figures are correct, Peter? Your figures would make it £5.21 a gallon.
I live in Northern Ireland and have just put 16 gallons of petrol in my car for £20.
You are certainly not wrong though about the soldier losing his limbs and the scummy British Government trying to get out of paying him compensation. It happens all the time. Fuckers!!
Posted by: NMcC | March 25, 2008 11:37 AM
She'll
English is my first language, honestly!
Posted by: maxi | March 25, 2008 11:37 AM
No human life is worth more than any other human life, and no piece of property is worth more than a human life. It is that simple.
Posted by: AJS | March 25, 2008 11:39 AM
The Continental Congress wrote:
"Prudence, indeed, ... BLAH BLAH BLAH ... security."
The colonies then proceeded to back up that pretty rhetoric with force. We do not have that option, because there is no force that can stand up to U.S. military might.
Posted by: Anonymous | March 25, 2008 11:40 AM
"Again, I do not want to criticize your cousin: I wasn't there, I didn't see what he/she did. But how can it be necessary to shoot a person who has dropped his weapon and is fleeing?"
IED's, suicide bombers, EFP's....
You are on patrol, an IED goes off, a guy gets up out of a ditch and runs while dropping a weapon and no one else is around...he's going to be shot. The situation changes if more people are around. Not because "it will be seen", but because of the likely hood that he is the one detonating the IED's. The popular approach is to set multiple IED's either to catch vehicles reacting to the first one, or to get the medics and EOD people that come after the first IED goes off. Most of the IED's in Iraq are command detonated. Meaning there is someone there setting it off, not pressure plate or other types of automatic detonation.
Posted by: Laen | March 25, 2008 11:42 AM
The link attributes the study to the Lancet, which "had much higher casualty numbers than other organizations".
Do us a favour and check on that.
Even so, war is war, and this war does not differ than all the other mindless wars, except it does have significantly lower numbers of deaths, delineatively speaking.
Posted by: philos | March 25, 2008 11:44 AM
I think a major reason that the actual number of Iraqi deaths aren't talked about as much is they're harder to know. Even with the Iraq Body Count it's clearly a massive undercount and people realize that. It's a weird bit of psychology but I think you get a much bigger reaction saying "this is the 4000th death" rather than "ok, now we know more than 4000 have died".
Posted by: aaron | March 25, 2008 11:45 AM
Philos is here!
Wow! Three trolls at once.
Philos, I know you're too willfully ignorant to grasp this, but one of the reasons so many of our brave young men and women are surviving is because modern medicine can do what only years ago would have been considered miracles.
However, the rate of non-lethal casualties is equal to or higher than Vietnam, etc. many of those include brain damage. Just so you know: over 80 percent of the wounded Marines and Sailors in Iraq are found to have temporary or permanent brain damage from head wounds.
So go ahead and talk about how much better this war is. Keep caring about potential life vs adult humans. What's more important, a group of cells that has less intelligence than a fly, or that 20 year old Marine with a wife and kid who can't count to ten any more? Oh, and while your at it... go fuck yourself.
Posted by: Dahan | March 25, 2008 11:46 AM
Even so, war is war, and this war does not differ than all the other mindless wars, except it does have significantly lower numbers of deaths, delineatively speaking.
Well, that makes it ok, then. A moderately large number of needless deaths is fine, compared to a larger amount of deaths by some other means. Shit, more than 4000 people die needlessly in car accidents every year, so that makes the deaths in Iraq nothing to worry about at all.
Posted by: Carlie | March 25, 2008 11:47 AM
Dead inside. That's exactly it. Futile, yes. I've stopped dreaming that the people will ever really run this country. It is run by corporations and greedy, wicked men.
Posted by: Kcanadensis | March 25, 2008 11:51 AM
For starters, JD, the union of the set of Americans and the set of Muslims is not equal to zero. There's a nice little thing, what was it called again? Oh yeah. FREEDOM, of the religious variety.
Posted by: Falyne | March 25, 2008 11:53 AM
I have been wondering for a long time where all the pitchforks and torches are. Shouldn't we be storming the castle by now? I have come up with a few thoughts on why nothing seems to be happening. They're appalling:
1) We are masterfully manipulated. It's too late to fool the majority that the war is winnable, just or that we are the Good Guys or that it's not putrid with misfeasance, malfeasance and corruption, but we are manipulated in ways that prevent protests from growing, news from spreading, or our representatives from feeling the heat: Subtle "just right" economic pressure to make us keep our heads down; strong correlation of authority with political persuasion to make us afraid of the disapproval of our bosses, preachers, bankers and cops; Madison Avenue controls the news, and manipulates fashion, and The Fashion right now is just not to be controversial, activist, extreme; besides, you know they're listening, they're reading your e-mail, and they have a tilting chair all ready for you in Guantanamo if you step out of line. We're all sheeple.
2) It's too big. We are faced by a gigantic mass of festering evil, and by extending Goebbel's famous admonition beyond mere lying, "They" have made it too daunting for most people to address. They are relentless, they are pervasive, they are powerful. You might swat one ant that comes in under the door, or wipe-up a little smudge of dirt on your floor, but how likely are you even TRY that when horror-movie hordes of malevolent arthropods or gouts of vile putrescence are pouring in every window, up the drains, down the chimneys.... (Yes, that's how I think of Bush &co. and their media)
http://thinkexist.com/quotation/-if_you_tell_a_lie_big_enough_and_keep_repeating/345877.html
3) We are waiting. An election is coming. Whether you personally believe it will bring change, enough people do, evoking a natural inclination to hold our collective breath until someone will come and make it all better for us. I do believe that we have two prospective leaders who can do a lot of good, and an organization (or a "disorganization") behind them with enough good people to do a lot of repairs, but the fatigue of the public, the sheep-like faith that all we need to do is follow, will necessarily limit what will be accomplished.
We as a society are sheep. We are wet kindling. But sheep CAN be stampeded, and a good boy scout can start a fire in the rain. Keep it up PZ: I'll contribute anything I can to getting it started!
Posted by: NedWonderhorse | March 25, 2008 11:54 AM
[evangelion]
I mustn't feed the trolls.
I mustn't feed the trolls.
I mustn't feed the trolls.
I mustn't feed the trolls.
I mustn't feed the trolls.
[/evangelion]
Posted by: Falyne | March 25, 2008 11:57 AM
Well for those who dismiss the deaths, how do you feel about the USA borrowing cashola from Red China to fund this debacle? And I write Red because back in the day, they were not our friends (and aren't really now). Why the F would you borrow from them to fund Dick and Georgies Suckass Mid-East Adventure?
Posted by: True Bob | March 25, 2008 11:58 AM
This reminds me of last April, when I had to take a hazardous chemical class for my work.
The instructor, although generally a good teacher, made a point of inappropriately (in my opinion, at least) throwing in little asides here and there referencing his very conservative political opinions. You know the kind of thing: "So who here believes in 'global warming?'" in that tone of voice that implies that anyone who raises their hand is about to get embarrassed. Of course, everyone else in the class (this being Georgia) loved him.
Anyways, one of his stories involved talking about his sister, who is currently a contracter in Iraq. Apparently she refuses to watch anything but FoxNews anymore, because when watching the other stations, "all they show is the violence and bloodshed in the cities, when really, once you get out of the cities, people see us as liberators. I wish they would show more of that."
I boiled with inner rage at the arrogance of someone who has the luxury of working in one of these supposedly peaceful hamlets, making profit off of the war, and being hailed as a "liberator," while at the same time wishing that the national media would just conveniently ignore the soldiers (a few of my friends included) actually risking their lives in those "unimportant" cities where people happen to be dying daily.
I hope that one of these days that instructor delivers that line to a class containing someone who just lost a friend or family member in Iraq. And I hope that person tears him a new asshole. Maybe then he'll learn to stick to teaching when in class, and only wank off to his personal politics when he's not speaking to a captive audience.
Posted by: EntoAggie | March 25, 2008 12:00 PM
Bush is the worst president of all time because of the Iraq War, the loss of provacy and personal freedoms, and the current implosion of the American economy. What is worse is that Clinton and Obama are working really hard to blow what should be a slam dunk win for the Democrats.
Posted by: DobyGS | March 25, 2008 12:02 PM
No, I don't like war, but it's like all the necessary things in life: there will always be poverty, there will always be hunger, there will always be the uneducated. You can fight and try to wall it off, but it will always come back. You can try to enrich the poor, feed the hungry & educate the ignorant. To not do so wouldn't be a fulfilling life and it would be wrong. You can wish to not have war, until absolutely necessary, but that's not realistic.
Bushs' War?
Now, that's a joke.
Remember, both sides signed off on that.
Exclamations from the Bohemians of "Bushs' War" means to me,
"Idiot" and unknowledgable of governemnt workings.
No one, but only the diseased mind, wants war.
Only fools think they can stop the world from having war.
Posted by: philos | March 25, 2008 12:03 PM