…and this is a 
Department of "Duh!"
Category: Religion
Posted on: March 20, 2008 10:35 AM, by PZ Myers
This is what health departments are reduced to in the face of lunacy. Health officials in the Philippines have issued a warning to people taking part in Easter crucifixion rituals.
The health department has strongly advised penitents to check the condition of the whips they plan to use to lash their backs, the Manila Times newspaper reports.
Real nails are used in the re-enactments They want people to have what they call "well-maintained" whips.
In the hot and dusty atmosphere, officials warn, using unhygienic whips to make deep cuts in the body could lead to tetanus and other infections.
And they advise that the nails used to fix people to crosses must be properly disinfected first. Often people soak the nails in alcohol throughout the year.
People are flagellating themselves and nailing themselves to sticks in a public spectacle of stupidity, and health officials are warning them to get a tetanus shot? How about "Stop doing that," instead, or alternatively, "Please use rusty nails and whips clotted with rotting gore so that you'll die sooner and we won't have to worry about you idiots anymore"?
Comments
I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't granted the courtesy of disinfectant and a tetanus shot.
These fundies think they are hardcore but they aren't.
Posted by: ChrisGose | March 20, 2008 10:42 AM
Lockjaw and the Easter Bunny.
Posted by: danley | March 20, 2008 10:42 AM
Maybe it's a bravery ritual. People hang themselves from hooks and similar nonsense at Body Modification parties.
Posted by: Monado, FCD | March 20, 2008 10:45 AM
Having a rough morning, PZ?
Posted by: Jon Merz | March 20, 2008 10:47 AM
So WTF do these people think? Do they think they are cheeses? Do they think everyone must be crucified? Is it a pathetic cry for attention? I'm more pious than you? What motivates an otherwise sane person* to mutilate themselves?
___________________
* enormous assumption
Posted by: True Bob | March 20, 2008 10:51 AM
I think it's an attention thing. Cool tattoo but hey, check out these weeping holes in my hands...I may have tetanus...waaaay cool.
Posted by: Richard Eis | March 20, 2008 10:54 AM
What exactly is a "well-maintained" whip?
Centurion: Soldier, is your whip well-maintained?
Soldier: Allow me to demonstrate
[whips prisoner, who wails in agony]
Soldier: Affirmative, sir. Still functionally effective.
Centurion: Carry on.
Soldier: With pleasure. Hail Caesar!
[the beating continues]
Posted by: JJR | March 20, 2008 10:55 AM
I dunno, this sounds to me like the "Please use clean needles while injecting yourself with drugs."
It's a public health measure intended as a stop-gap solution, not to actually solve the underlying problem of drug addiction (or whipping-yourself-for-god-addiction).
Posted by: factician | March 20, 2008 10:57 AM
Yep, it's called "harm reduction". It's what we do when people insist on doing stupid stuff, so that doing the stupid stuff won't involve secondary damage (beyond the stupid stuff itself).
Posted by: Tulse | March 20, 2008 11:04 AM
Well, how about the requirements that climbers' ropes and crampons be well maintained? Or that NASCAR racing machines have battery breakers and roll bars?
I think this agency is doing a good job in the face of public stupidity. The hint that such practices are dangerous is educational in itself.
Posted by: glopk | March 20, 2008 11:05 AM
"Please use rusty nails and whips clotted with rotting gore so that you'll die sooner and we won't have to worry about you idiots anymore"?
All life is valuable, even the lives of the misinformed. Maybe if you didn't believe in god you might know this. Of course, compared to god, no one on earth is worth a shit, are they?
A belief in god combined with a lack of compassion is a terrible thing.
Posted by: Mooser | March 20, 2008 11:05 AM
While I can understand the principle of harm reduction, what's shocking here is not what's being said so much as what isn't being said:
"What can we say, as public health officials, about lacerating your flesh with whips and driving nails through your hands? Don't do it!"
When the principle of harm reduction is applied to substance abuse, we don't avoid conveying the message that it's still a bad thing.
Posted by: DaveL | March 20, 2008 11:06 AM
the crucifixion is the most morally repellent thing about christian doctrine for me. if i was somehow convinced that the Bible, the word of God, the life of Jesus etc were all actually entirely true, i'd still have to refuse the acceptance of another person's death and torture as payment for my own misdeeds.
not only is the crucifixion story completely immoral, it also contradicts Jesus' own teachings. i don't know how otherwise comparatively moral Christians can not just accept, but celebrate something so obviously foul - on top of all the more optimistic superstitious crap they swallow.
Posted by: alex | March 20, 2008 11:06 AM
What these people are doing can be described in two words:
"Sucking up".
They're not doing it out of devotion, or righteousness, or piety. They're doing it to suck up to god. They hope that their snivelling display of masochism will gain them points in the afterlife.
They're not even that courageous. Yes, it requires a lot of nerve to go through with it, but ultimately they expect everything and more back. It's not self-sacrifice, but a calculated investment.
Posted by: hyperdeath | March 20, 2008 11:08 AM
This is definitely a harm reduction issue. If you told people who are willing to whip themselves or let themselves be crucified, "Don't do it" they'd ignore you. What do you know, you heathen? Tell them to watch their equipment so as to avoid unnecessary damage to themselves and they might listen. Thus, fewer people in the ER or hospital with miscellaneous preventable injuries and illnesses. And a free show for the tourists.
Posted by: Dianne | March 20, 2008 11:11 AM
Can you point me to the part in the bible that said that to look cool in the eyes of God you have to hurt yourself like his miraculous son was?
Posted by: Michelle | March 20, 2008 11:14 AM
"Crucifixion's not so bad. Gets you out in the fresh air."
Posted by: J | March 20, 2008 11:16 AM
(.)(.)
Posted by: wÒÓ† | March 20, 2008 11:17 AM
And apparently once just isn't enough for some people:
Posted by: MartinM | March 20, 2008 11:19 AM
So there are Roman soldier reenactors who are going to nail nails into people's hands? To help a bunch of morons prove their insane devotion to Jesus?
And that's okay?
Posted by: CalGeorge | March 20, 2008 11:22 AM
"how about the requirements that climbers' ropes and crampons be well maintained? ... a good job in the face of public stupidity."
I see what you mean, but I think the link you make is somewhat missing the point!
Posted by: Kim | March 20, 2008 11:33 AM
Always look on the bright side of life
[whistles]
Always look on the bright side of life
[more whistles]
For life is quite absurd
And death's the final word.
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin.
Give the audience a grin.
Enjoy it. It's your last chance, anyhow.
I guess they just must be python fans.
Posted by: Larry | March 20, 2008 11:36 AM
And they advise that the nails used to fix people to crosses must be properly disinfected first.
There is so much to dissect in that statement that I fail to find words to even try.
Posted by: Carlie | March 20, 2008 11:36 AM
"What motivates an otherwise sane person* to mutilate themselves?"
The insanity of piety fed by blind faith, that's what.
What they do here is just an example of the irrationality a person will gleefully engage in because they think that their acts are gaining favor with, or pleasing their deity.
Piety fed by power-lust leads people to fly planes into buildings, strap bombs to their bodies and blow up innocents, burn witches, etc. etc. etc..
Posted by: Alex | March 20, 2008 11:37 AM
It's bondage (and I don't mean light)
But being sub to God's all right?
A little more than strange, I think,
But then, that's not the way I kink.
Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | March 20, 2008 11:37 AM
CalGeorge: Yep, it's ok. The vast majority of Body modification relies on someone else to stab, poke, sear, and inject things for the person getting the mod.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_modification
Gonna agree with most of the folks on here, the practice is ridiculous, but it's easier to reduce the risk of damage than stop people risking themselves. My concern here is with the coersion aspect that makes people think that this is somehow a required activity, rather than a completely optional one.
Posted by: Left_Wing_Fox | March 20, 2008 11:39 AM
Factician, I pretty much agree. Equivalent of needle exchange for the addicted.
Posted by: Brian Macker | March 20, 2008 11:44 AM
Everybody needs a hobby, I guess.
Posted by: Bob Felton | March 20, 2008 11:45 AM
Larry - Yeah! And just think of the View!
Posted by: J-Dog | March 20, 2008 11:46 AM
So who do these pious individuals get to whip them? Friends? Family members? The local atheist group? Can I volunteer to be a whipper?
Posted by: H. Humbert | March 20, 2008 11:56 AM
What sort of whips are they using though?
The slappy strips of leather ones which make a loud noise a not much else like they are engaged in some weird BDSM ritual?
Or are they going for the real whips which can peel off several inches of skin with one whack (and thats before you include metal barbs). If its the latter, why don't they just go to Saudi Arabia where they can have a professional flog them within an inch of their lives?
And as for their 'cruicfixions', I guess they don't include the bit where a spear stuck through their lungs (or broken legs if they prefer). Lack of faith probably.
I wonder what volume of scarce medical resources there cretins will consume when the docs have to put them back together so they can do it again next year.
Posted by: LC | March 20, 2008 11:56 AM
Pope RatzAss loves Jesus-on-a-stick.
http://d1676417.u50.infinology.net/images/Pope%20Benedict%20XVI.jpg
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/arts/photos/2007/04/05/pope-benedict-cp-2759451.jpg
Posted by: bernarda | March 20, 2008 11:56 AM
It does rather diminish the concept of the Crucifixion as being unsurvivable and intolerably agonizing.
"We do not know, we cannot tell, what pain He had to bear"
Yes we do, just ask Jorge.
I wonder if anyone watching this thinks, "Hang on a moment, if these guys survive being crucified every year for 15 years, then crucifixion is easily survivable, so just maybe Jesus didn't die on the cross and was just resuscitated not resurrected. But that would mean the prophecy was not fulfilled, there was no blood sacrifice and He didn't die for my sins. That would mean that the very premise of Christianity is fundamentally flawed"
Posted by: Quidam | March 20, 2008 11:59 AM
The RCC "frowns on the practice". That's no surprise: Jesus was only nailed up once for 3 to 6 hours, it doesn't look like nearly such a big deal if a Filipino fishmonger can do it 15 times.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | March 20, 2008 12:01 PM
I hope it's not too late to ask my mom for a well-maintained whip for Easter.
I guess there's always my birthday, if it is.
Posted by: Tukla in Iowa | March 20, 2008 12:03 PM
Well, they're cheating a bit; they're tied to the cross as well as nailed to it. I suspect the nails aren't carrying any weight at all.
On the other hand, they don't have the luxury of divine restoration after three days. But I suppose 'Jesus had a really bad weekend for your sins' doesn't have the same ring.
Posted by: MartinM | March 20, 2008 12:05 PM
Geez. What's the safeword? "Lama sabachthani?"
Posted by: Kseniya | March 20, 2008 12:12 PM
a couple of reminders from "Life Of Brian".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loyjm4SOa0
Posted by: bernarda | March 20, 2008 12:16 PM
Crucifixion was used as an extra-painful method of death penalty for millennia. It's not survivable if done right.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | March 20, 2008 12:21 PM
If they get an infection, do they go to the doctor to get antibiotics?
"Sure, God, I'm willing to put a nail through my hand for you, carefully avoiding going through the bones, of course, but I'm really not going to put up with an MRSA infection for you. That's just a bit too much."
Posted by: Carlie | March 20, 2008 12:21 PM
Martin,
Agreed. They're cheating not only in using ropes, but misplacing the nail site. Everyone knows for a proper crucifixion the nails have to be placed in the wrist. What' s the point in going through the Jesus chainsaw massacre if it's not historically accurate?
Posted by: CFX | March 20, 2008 12:22 PM
Somewhat surprisingly (to me, at least), if you believe that God sanctions something, it seems very easy to ignore its moral dimension. Take the story of Abraham and Isaac, for example. I find Abraham's willingness to slaughter his own son unfathomable, but the Muslim calendar has a major holiday, Eid al-Adha, to celebrate this very willingness (which is perhaps not surprising for a religion that calls itself "Submission"). I've been invited to Eid al-Adha parties by a Muslim friend, and no doubt they're about as religious as the tree-trimming festivities my wife and I hold at Yule time, but I just can't bring myself to attend.
Posted by: noncarborundum | March 20, 2008 12:28 PM
CFX,
I suppose they are not then True Christians, but a bunch of poseurs.
Posted by: True Bob | March 20, 2008 12:31 PM
Whip maintenance is, of course, part of the sacred bond between man and God, as evidenced in the Whipsman's Creed.
THIS IS MY WHIP. There are many like it but this one is mine. My whip is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I master my life. My whip, without me is useless. Without my whip, I am useless. I must crack my whip true. I must whip straighter than any enemy who is trying to out-pious me. I will....
My whip is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weakness, its strength, its parts, its handle, and its lash. I will keep my whip clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...
Before God I swear this creed. When a problem comes along, I shall whip it. Whip it good. Amen.
Posted by: Rey Fox | March 20, 2008 12:34 PM
I find it weird that so many of you seem to be freaked out at the concept of a "well-maintained whip." Aren't there any other equestrians here but me? Basically, a well-maintained whip isn't falling apart, has the handle still firmly attached to the lash, doesn't have any of the metal or fibreglass bits sticking out, and is overall in reasonable condition. I can understand this concern -- a whip flying apart at the wrong time could injure a bystander.
Posted by: Interrobang | March 20, 2008 12:40 PM
Life of Brian wasn't the first thing I thought of, I immediately went to The Young Ones...
...nailing themselves to sticks...
"That's a really negative way to kill yourself, y'know. Like, I've tried it hundreds of times. There's no way you can hammer in the last nail".
Posted by: Sarcastro | March 20, 2008 12:41 PM
LC: As someone with quite a number of kinks outside of the closet, I can assure you that the whips in my closet do far more than just make a lot of noise.
I have to agree with the posters who think the health department is doing what it can in the face of a mass of human beings following their bliss, as crazy and bizarre as it sounds. We can't all be latte-sipping, tweed-wearing bookworms sitting 'round the hearth sipping beer and trading hearty bon-mots between read-aloud chapters of Origin of the Species. Grief, what a boring planet that would be.
Posted by: Elf M. Sternberg | March 20, 2008 12:42 PM
And to think I just had to listen to a Christian-Fascist rant about how stupid Shi'i are for physically abusing themselves during ashura.
Posted by: Moshe | March 20, 2008 12:52 PM
Yeah, all joking aside, I keep my whip well maintained, just like the collars and the other accessories. Good replacements aren't cheap, and more importantly they have sentimental value.
Posted by: Tukla in Iowa | March 20, 2008 12:55 PM
"Stop doing that," instead, or alternatively, "Please use rusty nails and whips clotted with rotting gore so that you'll die sooner and we won't have to worry about you idiots anymore"?"
Because it doesn't work. People will do it anyway and get infections. The health officials are attempting to deal with the reality of the situation.
On a positive note, your reaction to this health warning is so very similar to my reaction about the the Anti-OverDose drug you posted a few weeks ago.
Nice to see your heart stop bleeding. F'ing Hypocrite.
Posted by: Anonomouse | March 20, 2008 12:56 PM
Maybe those guys should just stick to walking on water. It's not so hard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2XQ97XHjVw
Posted by: bernarda | March 20, 2008 12:57 PM
The major difference being that PZ is blowing off steam, whereas you were entirely serious about letting drug addicts die.
Posted by: MartinM | March 20, 2008 1:02 PM
"The major difference being that PZ is blowing off steam, whereas you were entirely serious about letting drug addicts die."
Martin the Telepath.
Posted by: Anonomouse | March 20, 2008 1:05 PM
"How about "Stop doing that," instead, or alternatively, "Please use rusty nails and whips clotted with rotting gore so that you'll die sooner and we won't have to worry about you idiots anymore"?"
3 words: "huge tourist attraction". The government doesn't want this to stop, or for people to die, because less tourists means less income.
Posted by: Mark | March 20, 2008 1:13 PM
Give me that old time religion
Tis the old time religion,
Tis the old time religion,
And it's good enough for me.
Makes me whip everybody.
Makes me scourge everybody.
Makes me burn everybody.
And it's good enough for me.
Give me that old time religion
Tis the old time religion,
Tis the old time religion,
And it's good enough for me.
It will do when you're screamin'.
It will do when I am reamin'.
It will do when you're dying.
And it's good enough for me.
Posted by: Jaycubed | March 20, 2008 1:25 PM
Yeah, all joking aside, I keep my whip well maintained, just like the collars and the other accessories. Good replacements aren't cheap, and more importantly they have sentimental value.
Posted by: Tukla in Iowa | March 20, 2008 1:30 PM
Finally, a country that is stupider than ours.
.
.
.
191. The United State of America
192. The Philippines
What a relief.
Posted by: CalGeorge | March 20, 2008 1:33 PM
Every year a Darwin award comes from the Phillipines. It must be divine intervention.
Posted by: Doug | March 20, 2008 1:41 PM
I don't know why y'all are so riled. I think we ought to encourage Christians here in the US to emulate this practice. "What? You think you're devout? Ha! Look what they do in the Philippines."
After all, there also is a form of harm reduction when a stupid belief results in a really stupid and obvious behavior. Not to the believer, of course. But think of the children.
Posted by: Russell | March 20, 2008 1:49 PM
Thank you for completely generalizing the entire Philippine population, my fellow open-minded scientists.
::deep sigh::
Posted by: ray | March 20, 2008 1:54 PM
Hi, Elf. Just wanted to let you know I enjoyed "travellog" (sp?) back in the day.
Posted by: YetAnotherKevin | March 20, 2008 1:56 PM
ray: You're welcome.
Posted by: Rey Fox | March 20, 2008 1:58 PM
"Thank you for completely generalizing the entire Philippine population, my fellow open-minded scientists."
Thank you for completely generalizing the entire community of open-minded scientists, my fellow generalizer.
Posted by: Alex | March 20, 2008 2:13 PM
Quidam said: It does rather diminish the concept of the Crucifixion as being unsurvivable and intolerably agonizing.
This is an important point, which I've wondered about since the days of my Catholic grade school classes. We were taught that Jesus had to endure the horrible suffering of crucifixion in order to atone for all the sins of humanity, past and future. But in fact, he suffered for a few hours and then it was over. The scourging and crown of thorns probably was a favor to him, since the blood loss saved him from the days of agony on the cross that others suffered. And of course we don't need to look far in our history and literature to find many more lingering and horrifying tortures.
If this ordeal of a few hours was enough to atone for all the sins of the world, then why is the eternal torture of hell necessary. The crucifixion pales by comparison with the infinite torment of hell, which by definition would have to vastly exceed all suffering in human history. There's a huge disconnect here.
Posted by: Virginia | March 20, 2008 2:28 PM
Touche. The point remains.
Posted by: ray | March 20, 2008 2:28 PM
All generalizations are bad!
Posted by: James F | March 20, 2008 2:33 PM
yes make sure to sterilize the needle before administering the lethal injection...you wouldnt want the prisoner to get tetnis.
just what this reminds me of.
well while you are hacking away at your flesh and piercing yourself with metal spikes, make sure to sanitize them ahead of time, wouldnt want to do something UNHEALTHY.
but of course saying "you're all fucking retarded, stop that already" wouldnt go over well, cant question their religious practices.
they should just go all the way, whats a crucifixion if the person just gets down when its done. you gotta keep em up there til they die, whip em while they are on the cross and pierce em with a spear (allegedly...i dont think piercing crucified people with spears was roman practice, think standard practice was to leave them there til they died, either bleeding or starvation, whichever comes first.)
then they can become eligable for the darwin award.
Posted by: tus | March 20, 2008 2:35 PM
Considering the frequency with which US citizens and non-US citizens alike generalize the entire US population on this blog (sometimes we narrow down to a single US state), we can't resist spicing things up a bit by generalizing other populations as the occasions arise. Australia had its turn recently. It's just fair play.
Posted by: kmarissa | March 20, 2008 2:43 PM
Ray
#57 was the only post I read that disparages an entire nation (actually 2 of them) because of the insane acts of a vocal minority. But it was an even-handed flame, in proper context.
I do not see how the substance of the posts on this thread support your initial assertion. I feel it was a complete exaggeration to state that this thread "generalizes the entire Philippine population". So I don't think the point does stand until I see some examples that I perhaps overlooked.
If there are generalizations however, I do agree that they should be viewed as ridiculous and counterproductive.
Posted by: Alex | March 20, 2008 2:46 PM
I know that the Philippines are not the only place in the world where this nonsense goes on, but they seem to have more than their fair share of it.
Quite frankly, this is disgusting. I do not believe that Jesus would have wanted people to nail themsleves to crosses and whip themselves in homage to him. And speaking as one who doesn't believe in Jesus' divinity or resurrection, focusing so much on Jesus' execution misses the entire point of Jesus' teachings. Rather than nail themselves to crosses, they should be re-reading the Sermon on the Mount and reminding themselves of Jesus' true teachings.
I am reminded of Ashura, an important day in the Shiite sect of Islam, where people cut themselves and beat themselves in remembrance of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali. Not much difference if you ask me.
Posted by: Jonathon | March 20, 2008 2:47 PM
Countries that had Christianity essentially forced on them seem to take it a lot more seriously than Westerners (see also Africa). It's like Stockholm Syndrome writ large.
Posted by: poke | March 20, 2008 3:03 PM
#71, I think it is perhaps a bit deeper than that. I'm no expert, but there's is something very suspicious about dogmatic thinking and self-loathing. There are many examples. It's really something for PhDs to look at. Here is a link that gives some historical perspective of the act of self-flagellation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellant
Somehow I think all of these kinds of mechanisms and behaviors humans invent, whether pleasurable or not, are there to help our completely unprepared emotional and intellectual faculties come to grips with our self-aware state of being and our place in reality.
It would seem that these mechanisms and behaviors helped us in the past to get to this point in our history. I'm not quite sure they'll be of much use to us for much longer. And they may end up even killing us all.
But that's just a guess, I'm no expert.
Posted by: Alex | March 20, 2008 3:16 PM
Elf M. Sternberg #47 wrote:
Sigh. Boring? On the contrary, it sounds exotic. Tell you what, keep your whips in the closet and you get to host the next PharynguFest.
Posted by: Sastra | March 20, 2008 3:17 PM
I could do without the tweed though, at least during the summer months--a bit itchy. Plus, I'm not sure that I'd enjoy sipping lattes and beer at the same time.
Posted by: kmarissa | March 20, 2008 3:25 PM
They all need psychiatric counselling under suicide watch.
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | March 20, 2008 3:30 PM
And they advise that the nails used to fix people to crosses must be properly disinfected first. Often people soak the nails in alcohol throughout the year.
Am I really the first to say "Ew. Yuck."?
For the person who tried to compare this to climbing mountains, I'm thinking "no." Climbing mountains is for enjoying the experience of hiking into the wilderness, demonstration of skill and strength in in the technical climing, and satisfaction in the achievement and the beauty of the view from the top. No part of it is inspired by the desire to please a supernatural being with a taste for torture.
Posted by: Cat Faber | March 20, 2008 3:32 PM
I spent 9 months in the Philippines and had the opportunity to witness this ritual. I was staying with my husband's family (Filipino) so I was able to get some perspective from his very religious aunt. If you are not familiar with Filipinos (at least those around Manila), they tend to practice very colorful, indigenously altered version of Catholicism, almost psychodelic in nature. The more graphic the demonstration of their belief and the more blatant their guilt over their sins (whatever they might be), the better. Ironically, they also practice the great sin of pride in taking part in this. Their family members have bragging rights for the next year because one of their own has shown their devotion to God in such a gory, public way. You can elevate the status of your family in the community and the church by taking part in this. Not to defend the practice, but there are a lot of social pressures to engage in this demonstration and not all of them are related to God.
From a personal perspective, it was a shocking experience to observe, not to mention just plain unnerving with all of that blood flying everywhere.
Posted by: LCR | March 20, 2008 3:40 PM
#71: ...had it forced on them more recently. "Westerners" weren't always Christian either, and it was mostly forced on them too. And I'm not sure they take it more seriously than the Western fundies.
Posted by: Pete | March 20, 2008 3:41 PM
Brief video:
http://www.spike.com/video/2667496
Posted by: CalGeorge | March 20, 2008 3:52 PM
@woot #18:
good composition, but too much saturation and contrast boost; also a bit oversharpened.
if you are using autolevels, try fading it by 50%. if not, just tone down the contrast enhancment by at least half, and don't boost the saturation by more than 10%.
for the sharpening problems, again, try knocking down the sharpening pass by at least 30%. If your photo editing proggy uses unsharpening filters, try that instead, and experiment with the radius/percent to get a more pleasing effect.
Posted by: Ichthyic | March 20, 2008 3:54 PM
#33
You're missing a point, actually. Crucifixion IS easily survivable, that was the whole deal of the punishment (which, remember, was a brutally sadistic Roman form of execution before it ever played a role in anybody's religion).
The entire point of crucifixion was that it did not kill the victim quickly. Instead, he was left in incredible pain on the cross while he died of exposure, dehydration, and slow blood loss over several days. That said, certainly the torments the bible describes would have killed the man, especially the piercing with the spear.
Posted by: Nentuaby | March 20, 2008 3:57 PM
We can't all be latte-sipping, tweed-wearing bookworms sitting 'round the hearth sipping beer and trading hearty bon-mots between read-aloud chapters of Origin of the Species.
Aside from the fact that I can't recall ever sipping latte and beer at the same time, I like the image...
brings back some fond memories.
Posted by: Ichthyic | March 20, 2008 3:58 PM
whip em while they are on the cross and pierce em with a spear (allegedly...i dont think piercing crucified people with spears was roman practice, think standard practice was to leave them there til they died, either bleeding or starvation, whichever comes first.)
As I understand it, the Roman practice was to break the legs so they could no longer bear any weight, this would put so much stress on the diaphram that the victim would not be able to breathe and so suffocate to death. Jesus was speared to spare him the broken legs, but I forget who convinced the guard to do that and exactly why.
Posted by: SteveM | March 20, 2008 3:58 PM
I am an atheist, a former philosophy professor, and enjoy rough humor some times. I respect you and read your blog everyday (though I seldom comment). But this really is to much:
"Please use rusty nails and whips clotted with rotting gore so that you'll die sooner and we won't have to worry about you idiots anymore."
I know you didn't mean it, but that is not a joke. It's not funny. It's not a throw away line like "drop dead". I really think you should avoid such eliminationst rhetoric. It's neither healthy nor civil. Nor funny.
Posted by: timquick | March 20, 2008 4:00 PM
#67: "(allegedly...i dont think piercing crucified people with spears was roman practice, think standard practice was to leave them there til they died, either bleeding or starvation, whichever comes first.)"
That was after he died, though only mentioned in John.
http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=John19&book_id=50&version1=9&tp=21&c=19
I can picture this dialog:
soldier1: "That guy looks like he's already dead."
soldier2: "Let's poke him and see if he's faking."
Posted by: Mark | March 20, 2008 4:01 PM
I'm afraid that this is where my ideas part company with PZ's. I am vociferously anti-religion, but I am most certainly not anti-people, religious or not.
"Please use rusty nails and whips clotted with rotting gore so that you'll die sooner and we won't have to worry about you idiots anymore."
This gets us nowhere.
Posted by: apk | March 20, 2008 4:24 PM
You lot really do focus on the little issues. When are we finally going to see calls for seatbelts to be installed on the crosses? Is anybody giving the flagellators good advice on how to properly warm-up and stretch before their workout?
Enquiring minds want to know.
Posted by: Chili Pepper | March 20, 2008 4:27 PM
"When are we finally going to see calls for seatbelts to be installed on the crosses?"
All Roman guards must use approved rubber-tipped spears.
Mail & Guardian:
Victor showed no fear, smoking a cigarette, waiting in line for his turn on the cross.
But he cried out and openly wept as the 13cm stainless-steel nails -- pre-soaked in alcohol to disinfect them -- were driven through his palms with an ordinary carpenter's hammer.
Victor was one of at least 19 Filipinos who underwent ritual crucifixion on Good Friday in the northern village of Cutud, as part of a bloody annual spectacle that continues to shock tourists and outsiders in this devoutly-Roman Catholic nation.
It was his 17th year imitating the Passion of Christ. He said he was doing it so his mother would recover from a chronic illness.
And because he likes the attention?
Posted by: CalGeorge | March 20, 2008 4:37 PM
While I don't do much of that sort of thing myself, I can only state my objection to the inability of these people to recognize the limits of their fun & games, and have the sense and decency to NOT believe their particular sports make them moral authorities.
Frankly, PZ and most of the crowd here is not only often square, but oddly middle-class prudish in their judgement of the fantasy games of others, even when it has no significant social/political effect.
Please be a little more honest, some of you. Look at your own hobbies and obsessions and notice that they are just as absurd as at least the more savvy self-crucifiers.
Posted by: So Larries | March 20, 2008 4:43 PM
Speaking of "Duh," in a major coup for ID, it turns out that humans can make things:
Wow, humans can be designers! Take that, evolutionists.
Meaning that there is a God (who made enzymes which appear to have evolved sans foresight). See?
I know, I know, pointing to ID/UD tard is so easy, and yet when they come up with such great "ID research" I am left wondering if they can even be taught what words mean, let alone to come up with a scientific hypothesis.
Of course he's misusing the sense of "guided evolution" by implying that it's some ID god tweaking evolution, when of course it is a good analog of natural selection, in that they're setting up "environmental pressures" to achieve an outcome--the only difference being that the outcome is predetermined (by context, not mechanism) in this case.
Gee, so they turned to mutation and environmental selection precisely because it is a good way to deal with the complexity that the IDiots want to claim is what their "designer" causes. This gets back to an inconvenient fact, that it is evolution that deals well with coordinating complex interconnected systems, while rational design processes are strained when dealing with a great deal of complexity--and of course they never produce the patterns that we see in evolution (other than by mimicry). Somehow they especially neglect to mention the latter aspect.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Glen Davidson | March 20, 2008 4:46 PM
Wow, humans can be designers! Take that, evolutionists.
I'm sure all the anthropologists are excited about this news.
Posted by: Ichthyic | March 20, 2008 4:47 PM
Please be a little more honest, some of you. Look at your own hobbies and obsessions and notic