…and this is a 
Miseducation by the creationists
Category: Creationism
Posted on: March 24, 2008 12:34 PM, by PZ Myers
Watch this appalling video of homeschoolers misusing the Denver museum to promote creationism. Aside from the general pattern of lies from the tour guides, two things jumped out at me.
The really awful pedagogy. Over and over again, the creationist says some stock phrase and then pauses, waiting for his kids to fill in the missing word. This is simply demanding rote learning. Similarly, he leads the kids in asking a good question — "how do you know?" — while training them to ignore any answers. Right there on the wall is a description of radiometric dating methods, for instance, and they turn their back on it.
Then there is the twisted logic. T. rex has big sharp teeth; they know, though, that he was a vegetarian, because "if this creature was designed to eat meat from the very start, what would he have to do until Adam and Eve sinned, and death entered the world? What would he have to do? Fast and pray for the Fall." Oh, and of course, he then says, "Is that likely? Everyone look at me and say…<pause>no. Try that with me…no."
This is child abuse. Those kids are getting their heads stuffed with ignorance.
At least this news report is unsympathetic.
(via Sandwalk)
Comments
"...think like creationists..." Dude, that's not thinking. The antonyms of thinking are: irrational, stupid.
Posted by: Moses | March 24, 2008 12:45 PM
At least they aren't complaining that there should be saddles on the Triceratops
Posted by: Chris A | March 24, 2008 12:47 PM
And for everyone who has come over here wondering what all the fuss is over Expelled and their ilk, here it is. This is what we're dealing with. This kind of crap, peddled as God's Honest Truth, coming out of the mouths of thousands of pastors, parents, and yes, teachers, all over the country. And hundreds of thousands of kids are soaking it up, well along their way in training to ignore science any and every time it suits them. Antibiotic-resistant diseases? Don't exist. Global warming? Scientists don't know what they're talking about. Lack of evidence for any demonstratable mental or physiological differences between ethnic groups? Scientists are the ones with the evil agenda, trying to make everyone seem the same, ignoring what we really know to be true.
It's all part and parcel of the same problem. That's why we get so upset. There are people in this country actively eroding science at every turn in this country, and they have been growing more numerous and more powerful for the last 30 years, and it needs to be stopped.
Posted by: Carlie | March 24, 2008 12:48 PM
"Is that likely?"
LOL. Oh, the foundations upon which this "wisdom" has been erected. Good lord. I think I need to stop reading some of these threads for a while...
Posted by: Kseniya | March 24, 2008 12:50 PM
PZ,
After viewing this, my question is: "And Nisbet wants you to what?????"
Posted by: severalspeciesof | March 24, 2008 12:52 PM
OK, there are several problems for the creationist...
Let me see: honesty, integrity, intelligence, etc.
Posted by: Eric | March 24, 2008 12:54 PM
It was kind of funny when the interviewer asked them why dinosaur bones were never found in the same strata as humans. It's clear that they at least did a little preparation, instead of giving the creationists a forum for spouting their talking points. Hopefully, this will become a trend for mainstream reporting about creationism.
Posted by: Mark B | March 24, 2008 12:55 PM
I used to be a schoolteacher. I think a part of me died after watching that video.
Posted by: Rav Winston | March 24, 2008 12:56 PM
Actually, the comment about the vegetarian T-rex, and the whole question about how there were no carnivorous animals before the Fall, is an interesting one. Does it mean that the lions, wolves et al were all redesigned after the Fall to be able to hunt and digest meat?
Posted by: Andres | March 24, 2008 12:57 PM
Ssshhhhh!!! Quiet, Quiet! Didn't you get the memo? You're not supposed to be pointing out the lying, poor schooling, brainwashing, and the potential for one of the victims to one day be president. Instead, it's supposed to be somehow framed by the pros. Now quiet everybody! Quiet! Quiet!
Posted by: blf | March 24, 2008 12:58 PM
That's what they do, of course, they drum into kids' heads to pass every conclusion by their "understanding of the Bible," so that better methods won't even begin to get a grip on thier minds.
It's not always so devastating when the kids nevertheless do learn science and how to think through evidence, because then the obvious problems arise in many of their minds. But this will discourage them from studying science in the first place (home schoolers are notoriously badly educated in the sciences), and for those who largely miss learning science, there's little way for them to comprehend our positions by anything but a prejudicial manner.
And yes, the "questioning" that they bring up is just the sort of "skepticism" and "openness" that Expelled is promoting. "Question science," just be sure to insist that religious bias is every bit as deserving of respect as are our judicial and scientific standards for using evidence.
I hate to say it, but most home schooled children had probably be best written off as damaged goods. Most (not all, of course) are home schooled precisely in order to prevent their learning anything other than rote swill.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Glen Davidson | March 24, 2008 1:01 PM
Carlie, yes! And yes again! This is what a guy like Olson doesn't get: it's not that he, personally, is responsible for the decline of science education, it's that he's part of a moment that is incrementally and intentionally undermining it. His counter-argument, which states that creationism and faith-based anti-intellectualism can't be in any way responsible for declining science scores because "most science teachers are evolutionists," misses the point entirely.
Posted by: Kseniya | March 24, 2008 1:01 PM
I suppose the tour skips the museum's computer demonstrations of natural selection.
It still baffles me that there could be creationists in Colorado -- it takes a special kind of moron to live in a place where you can find everything from trilobites to dinosaurs literally in your back yard and still declare that the world is a few thousand years old.
Posted by: Dustin, OM | March 24, 2008 1:01 PM
I noticed that the reporter was brave enough to not just question the idea of it but go the next step and break their arguments down. Most reporters would have presented one side of the story and not wanted to touch the claims made for fear of offending the people who's beliefs are supported by those claims...this is a good sign.
Posted by: Cat's Staff | March 24, 2008 1:01 PM
These people are so silly. Ignoring facts and spreading some well manufactured propaganda onto children. I feel sorry for them.
What would a creationist do if an educated person comes along while they are "teaching" the chrildren and would do somethin like this...
Hey kids, have you ever seen a bird with teeth? ... No? How would it look like if a bird would have teeth? It would look silly, wouldn't it? ... Yes. That would be very bad design. Now everybody say "bad design"... "BAD DESIGN". Yes kids. So why is it, that bird have no teeth, but they have the genes to grow teeth, although they don't use these genes? It's because of evolution. Bird have a common ancestor who had teeth. Within the process of evolution bird lost the use of teeth and now they don't have them, but they still have the genes. This is just one proof of evolution. Now everybody say "proof of evolution" ... "PROOF OF EVOLUTION". Good kids... Now would you like to pray or would you like me to buy you some ice cream?
hehe ;-)
Posted by: Patrick Albers | March 24, 2008 1:03 PM
Cue the "moderate" Christians crying "Don't judge us by these idiots. Not all Christians are nutjobs".
Yes, yes, I know, not all of you believe the earth is 6,000 years old. You still think that some dude healed the sick with magical powers and then came back to life after being crucified and soon will travel back to earth and save you all from us heathens. But at least you don't think the earth is 6,000 years old.
Posted by: Bruce | March 24, 2008 1:03 PM
s/part of a moment/part of a movement/10
Posted by: Kseniya | March 24, 2008 1:04 PM
Such blatant irony! It makes me sick! "Say it with me, 'how do you know?'" Gee, that's a good question!
Posted by: Carl | March 24, 2008 1:06 PM
PZ said: Then there is the twisted logic. T. rex has big sharp teeth; they know, though, that he was a vegetarian, because "if this creature was designed to eat meat from the very start, what would he have to do until Adam and Eve sinned, and death entered the world? What would he have to do? Fast and pray for the Fall." Oh, and of course, he then says, "Is that likely? Everyone look at me and say...no. Try that with me...no."
Twisted logic indeed. I think I'll use this as a perfect example of rationalizing for my critical thinking class.
A clear thinker would say, "That is indeed not likely, and thus it calls your Garden of Eden origin story into question."
Posted by: Ric | March 24, 2008 1:07 PM
It would appear that the delectable Dr. Kirshenbaum has joined Prof. Nisbet and his sockpuppet Chris Mooney in the Dawkins and Myers should shut up brigade.
http://scienceblogs.com/intersection/
Posted by: SLC | March 24, 2008 1:07 PM
I've gotten to the point where I can laugh at most creationist nuttiness, but whenever there's kids involved, I seriously want to bawl. To preach to the choir, steering them away from critical thinking / logic sets them up for failure on so many fronts. Child abuse is the perfect label.
Posted by: deerjackal | March 24, 2008 1:07 PM
800-year-old people and plant-eating carnosaurs. Weapons-grade stupidity. I did find it encouraging, however, that the museum curator grew up in a YEC household and came to his senses.
Posted by: James F | March 24, 2008 1:07 PM
The religious bigots have been doing this for centuries. That there are millions of athiests in the world and millions more people who accept evolution even while being Christian shows the indoctrination process is not as successful as you'd think. Indeed, some of the best advocates for atheism were raised in fundamentalist Christian homes.
Posted by: Dale Husband | March 24, 2008 1:10 PM
This video makes me so angry.... and sad :(
Posted by: An | March 24, 2008 1:12 PM
Ok, these guys are lying and they KNOW it. They do.
And if they have to lie for their beliefs, they must have very little faith because they're faith is weak.
So they're lying twice over.
Really disgusting.
Posted by: atari_age | March 24, 2008 1:12 PM
They seemed to be baffled by even simple arithmetic.
Earth six thousand years old... six or seven generations of 800 year old people between Adam and Noah .... uh,...
Posted by: Don | March 24, 2008 1:14 PM
I've just realized that I've been living in the Denver area almost two years now, and I haven't yet been to the museum! Now I'll definitely have to take a trip.
Posted by: Ian | March 24, 2008 1:15 PM
This made me furious. This is as bad as exposing kids to porn. There simply has to be a way these idiots can be legally stopped. Let them spew their senseless drivel among themselves, but don't pump this garbage into the minds of kids.
Posted by: amygdala | March 24, 2008 1:16 PM
Disgusting. It really is a kind of child abuse. (And, as pointed out, abuse of a perfectly good museum!)
Posted by: Kcanadensis | March 24, 2008 1:17 PM
How well does this indoctrination stick?
Just guessing but the brighter among the kids might well wake up someday while reading an article on the latest fossil find or space telescope discovery and go WTH?
Why is our government spending billions on land and space based telescopes to see back to the Big Bang when it never happened and the earth is only 6,000 years old?
Couldn't this money be better spent on welfare for homeschooled creo kids who never learned enough to be employable?
We call this, setting up your kids to fail.
Posted by: raven | March 24, 2008 1:17 PM
They can't even get their OWN theology right -- "We believe Jesus is our creator". My friend's awesome reply -- "maybe the creator of their church's landscaping, but I think he has an accent on the u."
But yeah, this pisses me off -- teaching children how to NOT think by pretending to teach them how to actually think. Fortunately, for some of us this backfires, because we miss the cues and think we're actually supposed to think. So we do, and we really do learn.
Posted by: MyaR | March 24, 2008 1:18 PM
It seems this guy's just another "Palmstroem":
Posted by: Christian | March 24, 2008 1:18 PM
Er, I imagine the assumption is that they reproduced well before they reached 800, just as people today reproduce around 20 or 30, not 80.
Posted by: Ian | March 24, 2008 1:18 PM
LOL! so NO ANIMALS eat MEAT? or did god change ALL animals that can eat meat after the fall? If god changed animals after the fall to eat meat... my head hurts. :-(
Posted by: genewitch | March 24, 2008 1:19 PM
"How do you know?"
?!
READ THE FUCKING SIGNS!! They're there at the exhibits to explain just that. I look at these adults who are leading the tour, and they say these crazy things, and it suddenly dawns on me that they actually believe what they're saying. I may have to call in sick after watching that. I feel so sorry for these children.
Posted by: MandyDax | March 24, 2008 1:20 PM
I almost cried when I saw this! Those poor kids will never learn how to think for themselves when they're stuck into their little Bible-bubbles!!! Ugh - it makes me ill. When I teach evolution (which is the foundation of the biology curriculum as far as I'm concerned and my favorite topic) I encounter a few kids every year who simply choose not to believe it...but, naturally they can't articulate a decent argument to support their perspective because they can't think for themselves!!!! Poor things....
I am so glad I discovered this blog! It's like a little atheist oasis I can visit and remind myself that I'm not alone!!! Thanks PZ!!
Posted by: biology teacher | March 24, 2008 1:20 PM
Wow......I agree, it is a good sign that the curator outgrew the YEC upbringing. Another irony is that these guides will keep on using the medicines and food developed through scientific methods (and yes, evolutionary concepts) and use gas processed from oil deposits millions of years old and not even think about it. Think any of those kids has a chance working at a large energy company if they think the world is 6,000 years old?
Posted by: Fire Ant | March 24, 2008 1:20 PM
Yep, despite the idiocy taught by the YEC guys, some of those kids are going to think for themselves and when they do...
You suppose the mom that was quoted as saying she believes everything in the bible really feels that way when her man wants some lovin?
Posted by: firemancarl | March 24, 2008 1:21 PM
OT but related. Looks like some xian fundies are in trouble for killing their kids. The kids in the museum are the lucky ones, so far. FWIW, this happens frequently, though I can't give any numbers on it. Most don't get reported and most docs who have been through the court order process don't try it more than once. It is too depressing and usually futile.
Posted by: raven | March 24, 2008 1:25 PM
#11
Ah, come on, its easy to ignore this kind of stuff if you shut your eyes and put your fingers in your ears, all the while shouting "Gawd did it!".
mmm, kay?
Posted by: Larry | March 24, 2008 1:26 PM
There are just no words.
I truly feel sorry for those children.
Posted by: Kim | March 24, 2008 1:26 PM
The teacher actually makes the students repeat that fossils are "boorrrriiinnnnggggg." Does the teacher also say that Shakespeare and algebra are boring? Sickening. They're conditioning kids to be ignorant.
Posted by: Tosser | March 24, 2008 1:26 PM
Oh dear. This is disgraceful. Mr. Jack and Mr. Carter - lying for jesus - your choice. Lying to children - shame on you.
Posted by: alickn | March 24, 2008 1:28 PM
Creationist:
"I've chosen to believe the God of the Bible. The evolutionist has chosen NOT to believe the God of the Bible. So we've both CHOSEN to believe -- both matters of FAITH."
Right here is a chink in their armor, a little bit of cognitive dissonance which I think can be exploited.
Fundamentalists tend to be very authority and discipline oriented. You do what you have to do, whether you like it or not. Things are what they are, whether you like it or not. You don't make them real and you don't make them go away just because of what you want. It doesn't matter what you want. Relativism is wrong -- we don't all have our own "truths." There's just one reality, one truth -- and you have to buck up and take it. You don't get to decide.
They believe this. But because of the nature of their belief system, they also have to parrot the "everything is faith" mantra. We choose our beliefs according to what we want to be true. We all do it. Every time, for every thing. You can't be sure of anything, so pick what you want to have "faith" in. It always comes down to choice. It comes down to what you want to decide.
Those two views do NOT work together. It's very inconsistent to try to hold both. They may try to shove that conflict aside temporarily by framing it as everyone deciding whether or not to obey God -- instead of whether or not to believe that there is a God -- but that doesn't hold together and they eventually realize it. They want to have their Discipline Cake and at the same time they want to make every belief a matter of choosing your personal preference.
No can do. Call them on it.
Posted by: Sastra | March 24, 2008 1:28 PM
Think any of those kids has a chance working at a large energy company if they think the world is 6,000 years old?
Sure, why not? Cognitive dissonance is the creationists' stock in trade--especially if there's money to be made. One of those kids might even grow up to be president!
Posted by: Will E. | March 24, 2008 1:29 PM
And how do we know God created birds? It says so in the Bible. And how do we know the Bible is true? It says so in the Bible. What do we call this, children? Say it with me: circular reasoning.
Irony is so old hat.
Posted by: tyaddow | March 24, 2008 1:30 PM
Oh dear. Mr. Jack and Mr. Carter - this is disgraceful. Lying for jesus - your choice. Lying to children - shame on you.
Posted by: alickn | March 24, 2008 1:30 PM
Even Christianity Today's reporting is clearly not favorable to Mathis and his anti-PR tactics for Expelled. It isn't much of an article, not reporting anything new, but the headline and the immediate summary give the bad flavor that this wretch of a movie is getting outside of the looniest crowds:
The only other interesting bit for the up-to-date in this article is that they make an erroneous report on Stein's lobbying for Florida's "academic freedom" bill, but it's an error that largely gives the essence of Stein's BS:
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Glen Davidson | March 24, 2008 1:32 PM
(paraphrasing) "And what changed your mind?" the reporter asks of the curator. "Empirical evidence" he replies.
Empirical Evidence. A notion anathema to the minds of these bone-headed creationist neanderthals (with apologies to neanderthals). Empirical evidence is used in shaping the theory to fit the facts, i.e. the scientific method. Warping, ignoring, slandering, explaining away the facts in order for what little is left to fit the "theory" of creationism is how these dummies play their game.
Nauseating. And yeah, I agree: a form of child abuse. Not prosecutable, unfortunately. Maybe some day.
Posted by: Forrest Prince | March 24, 2008 1:32 PM
When I first saw this video, it literally made me ill to my stomach, just like all the other creationist drivel I've watched before. However, something dawned on me this time, when the scientist at the museum said that despite the indictrination these kids receive, some of them will learn to think for themselves.
I realized there that these kids believe such stupid things (like the kid who said that the world was an "asteroid bajillions and kabillions of years old" or the boy who said "all the damage... the world would just fall apart") that when just presented with the real, un-corrupted evidence of the natural world, they might even come to revile the people who told them such stupendous lies. I mean, if they wanted kids to refuse "Darwinism", they could at least come up with more than a half-assed explanation of science.
It's like the kid I saw in the DI museum video who wanted to become a biologist solely to "disprove Darwinism." Let them try.
Posted by: Adam Nelson | March 24, 2008 1:38 PM
Eeesh. That was difficult to watch - I had to stop it and come back later.
BC Tours? More like BS Tours.
What is really bizarre to me is how blinded they are to their biases (maybe that's because I'm blinded by mine). I think I'd want to shadow them and make corrections aloud. At least, loud enough for the kids to hear.
Posted by: True Bob | March 24, 2008 1:39 PM
#47
It'll never work. Our Global Darwinist Conspiracy™ stops every single paper that tries to disprove evolution. I've lost track of all the research manuscripts from the Discovery Institute that I've rejected.
/sarcasm *HEADDESK*
Posted by: James F | March 24, 2008 1:45 PM
Comment #43 beat me to the dripping irony with regards to the "for the bible tells me so" explanation for birds being designed as such.
Posted by: Brad | March 24, 2008 1:46 PM
Sweet, if I ever join a creationist class i'll know how to ace any test with "how do we know" questions.
Posted by: Dutch Delight | March 24, 2008 1:48 PM
This stirs a feeling of utter indignation. This is child abuse for sure. Retarding the minds of children for Jesus is just wrong.
I had to post about it also
http://cantmakeadifference.blogspot.com/2008/03/retarding-for-jesus.html
Posted by: Steven | March 24, 2008 1:50 PM
What. A. Fucking. Douche.
So, Mr. Bible Genius, what did these undeniably non-vegetarian creatures do before the Fall?
If I were there, I would have showed him how interesting fossils can be by embedding a fucking trilobite in his skull.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | March 24, 2008 1:50 PM
Posted by: firemancarl
I'm willing to bet she compromises when the children get a little older and a little more independent. A real test of this conviction will be when she has a chance to set the first stone hurtling toward the unruly child. Of course, there's always the possibility that the husband stones her first. Apparently, the curator's parents lacked complete conviction in the inerrant nature of the Bible - at least I saw no obvious indentations.
Posted by: jimmiraybob | March 24, 2008 1:53 PM
Centuries later, his corpse is exhumed. Creationists then decide that he must have died in the flood.
Posted by: Ian | March 24, 2008 1:57 PM
Ugh. Makes me want to weep. Those poor kids were being force fed a butt load of lies.
However, Nightline did mess up the 800 year generation thing. You don't count generations by life span, you count them by the average age gap between parents and children (about 25 years today). So, in terms of Biblical mythology, there is no real problem in having seven generations within a couple of thousand years, since the seventh generation could have been born within a couple of hundred years of Adam and Eve.
Of course, it's all just a myth anyway, but I can imagine the creationists watching jumping on this point and saying it proves how untrustworthy the whole piece was.
Posted by: tacitus | March 24, 2008 1:57 PM
It's painful to watch. Some of these kids will continue to believe this force-fed garbage till they are adults. It wouldn't be surprising if they apply the same kind of pseudoscientific thinking to other areas as well. "Drink this. It's natural. It can't do you any harm."
A few of them might become intelligent design proponents.
If we're lucky, a few of them will eventually break the spell and see this creationist misinformation for what it is.
Posted by: xcdesignproponentsists | March 24, 2008 2:08 PM
#31
That might seem reasonable to you or I, but Genesis is clear that Noah was 500 before his first offspring.
Posted by: Don | March 24, 2008 2:09 PM
Reality must just scare the living crap out of these poor bastards. I mean, really. This isn't learning. This isn't even close to learning. This is reinforcing stupidity and creating a herd of kids woefully unqualified to function in the real world. After all, you can only take that "Magic man did it" nonsense so far before you wind up completely intellectually crippled.
This is definitely child abuse, and it's sickening. I think I learned more by Fifth Grade than that potatohead giving the "tour" seems to have learned in his entire life. This kids aren't being taught to function in the real world. They're simply being taught that it's fine and dandy to live in a delusional little bubble of fantasy and easy answers.
These idiots deserve to be mocked openly again and again. They should be humiliated. Their children should weep, and the parents should stop and consider joining the real world before it kills them. If you believe the Flintstones is a documentary, then you should live in a box beneath a bridge where you belong and let other, more rational people assume your place in society.
Posted by: Dan | March 24, 2008 2:10 PM
Creationists are definitely bad for my blood pressure. Hell, they are.
Posted by: dvizard | March 24, 2008 2:11 PM
I thought the T. Rex's teeth weren't rooted for tearing meat, etc.
Posted by: wnelson | March 24, 2008 2:15 PM
Sigh, that's not even a good rationalization. Why not just use this argument:
"Here's a picture of an orchid blossom that looks like an insect. It's such a close resemblance that real insects will try to mate with it (and pollinate the plant in the process). Before the Fall, birds weren't allowed to eat insects, but they would have been allowed to eat the blossoms of this plant. Did they do this? That's a logical conclusion! Could bigger orchids have had triceratops-shaped blossoms? I don't see any reason why not! And might T.Rexes have eaten them? Well, duh! And would there be evidence of those orchids today? Maybe, but they might have gone extinct during the Flood! And is it this hypothesis theoretically testable but not falsifiable? Yes to both! And does that make it as close to science as Creationism can ever get? Absolutely!"
Posted by: chaos_engineer | March 24, 2008 2:15 PM
Brownian, OM:
You know, this kind of in-your-face defense of rationality--the refusal to play the supine framing game--needs its own descriptive terminology. My vote's for "Gonzo Rationalism."
Posted by: Epikt | March 24, 2008 2:18 PM
Here I thought I had to turn to BBC if I ever wanted to see these hacks taken to task. By the standards of American news media that is a downright scathing indictment of complete idiocy. Forget Expelled, schoolchildren need to see that video. There is something humorous about the lies being so outrageous that even children have trouble even imagining the creationist fantasy. Clearly these morons haven't been around much if they think adolescents, particularly adolescent boys, don't know enough about dinosaurs to know that they didn't live a couple thousand years ago. Unless things have changed radically since I was a child, the average young boy can name more dinosaur facts than anyone this side of a paleontologist. They can certainly tell you that the T-Rex ate meat and top it off with dozens of other meat eaters. Try and tell a child that dinosaurs were prissy vegetarians that scampered about Eden and you just lost a convert. No offense to vegetarians.
Of course...it's best that these walking anachronisms aren't around adolescents or any people between the ages of 0 and 800.
On a final note, is it weird that the only thing that made me smack my head against my desk was the math in the 800 year generation discussion? It's mind-blowingly retarded to even discuss but people living 800 years likely wouldn't have 800 year generations any more than generations occur every 70 years in the modern day. I'd certainly hope that anyone who honestly believes people used to live to 800 has never bred and doesn't know what a generation is.
Posted by: Patrick | March 24, 2008 2:21 PM
But the truly sad thing is that you can multiply this group of kids by a factor of many thousand (home schooled christian kid, private school kids, etc.) before you can understand the true scope of the problem. Anti-science is flourishing, it's a boom industry.
Posted by: John Rummel | March 24, 2008 2:26 PM
T. Rex must have been a vegetarian, otherwise he would not have been able to eat before the fall, these people tell us.
Does that mean that it's a sin to eat meat? Are these people militant vegetarians as well as creationists?
And what do they make of New Testament passages that have Jesus eating met?
Posted by: rea | March 24, 2008 2:31 PM
In the hearing for the TRO the judge awarded against me, the lawyers for that evangelical church called it 'evidence'.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | March 24, 2008 2:32 PM
No mention of the appalling math from the oh-so-neutral reporter, though, of course. A new generation doesn't start after a person dies. Generations overlap. That inconvenient truth seems to be lost on the reporter and, well, everyone else here.
Posted by: dsmvwld | March 24, 2008 2:34 PM
Lyin' fer Jesus!
Lyin' fer Jesus!
Let's lie to children fer Jesus today!
(To Waltzing Matilda)
If you ever get near a group like this, you might want to sing a little tune...
Posted by: Darby | March 24, 2008 2:42 PM
I watched this on tv last night. The part that got me was the one mother of these kids saying the bible is true and so is their interpretation of it.
Aren't laws about fraud or child abuse applicable here?
Irony is, it makes complete sense to these people to worship an angry, jealous, vengeful god who's all powerful but still had to sacrifice his only son due to a small sin oversight. Nutty!
Posted by: Rick Schauer | March 24, 2008 2:43 PM
I see, I say I see the li-ight! dsmvwld has opened my eyes to the Tru-uth of the conspiracy! Hallelujah!
Seriously, don't you Christians have some Indians to torture, or something?
Posted by: Brownian, OM | March 24, 2008 2:46 PM
{comment deleted by author}
The above comment has been deleted by the author, a scientist, because it violates the Nisbet-Mooney Accords of 2008.
This is something of a shame because the post contained a) the answer to solving the problem of creationists which will not only keep creationists happy, but also moderate religious people and scientists, b) the solution to climate change, and c) the secrets behind having a really big penis/thick lustrous hair/weight loss/cellulite removal/general body image problems/removing unsightly skin blemishes/etc.
Apologies. Please feel free to slip merrily into a second Dark Age because we are afraid to upset people.
Louis
Posted by: Louis | March 24, 2008 2:47 PM
#71: The generational issue has only been mentioned about three times already. Maybe you should actually read the comments before you criticize them.
Posted by: Ian | March 24, 2008 2:48 PM
I wonder what venus fly-traps and pitcher plants ate before "the Fall".
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | March 24, 2008 2:48 PM
If this creature was designed to eat meat from the very start, what would he have to do until Adam and Eve sinned........
I had to stop watching. I was only introduced to scienceblogs a few weeks ago, and I had no idea how awful fundamentalist distortions really are. It is literally giving me indigestion just thinking about the 2 minutes of the video I actually did watch. Where do you even start if you wanted to fix that kind of garbage? I'm going to have nightmares about this. PZ, does this stuff ever stop giving you a stomach ache after you've seen enough of it?
Posted by: pjb | March 24, 2008 2:50 PM
Wouldn't teeth wear to nothing over an 800 year life?
Posted by: thadd | March 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Uh, sorry Brownian, but wouldn't that be two trilobites?
Posted by: Kseniya | March 24, 2008 2:53 PM
Also, why would a sea turtle die in the flood?
Posted by: thadd | March 24, 2008 2:54 PM
And it was ignored or laughed off every time.
Posted by: dsmvwld | March 24, 2008 2:55 PM
I have to give it to the new reporters though, they certainly didn't cut anyone any slack. I like the curator's responses too. It's depressing people are doing this to the kids, but at least some will come out alright. I myself used the term "survival of the fittest" as a platitude not related to evolution in front of my religious father when I was eleven. I didn't even know what it meant when I said it, but his reaction was enough to make me look it up!
Posted by: Angrynight | March 24, 2008 2:59 PM
It takes two?! Damn you, abstinence-only sex education, damn you all to hell!
Posted by: Brownian, OM | March 24, 2008 2:59 PM
Does that mean that it's a sin to eat meat? Are these people militant vegetarians as well as creationists?
It's not that it's sinful, it's just an article of faith that nothing died before the Fall. So nothing could have been eaten except for the parts of plants that can regenerate. (Fruits and leaves, but no root vegetables.)
The only way meat-eating would work would be if animals could regrow missing tissue pretty quickly, and if they had no pain receptors so they wouldn't mind if you took a bite out of them. But that's silly.
No, wait a minute, that's not quite as silly as the triceratops-shaped orchids I suggested earlier in the thread. I'd like to switch my theory to this one, please.
Posted by: chaos_engineer | March 24, 2008 3:02 PM
Geez, my memory's getting bad now at 45, what would it be like at 400 (middle age)??? Plus, no post-it notes back then to leave myself messages.....
Posted by: Fire Ant | March 24, 2008 3:02 PM
Ever since Dawkins talked about the Lord Privy Seal thing, I've been noticing it and it's driving me crazy. Near the start of this video (0:47 or so), when the narrator explains how the tour is a Christian thing, they slowly focus on a stained glass window of what looks like Jesus on a privy, balancing balls like a trained seal.
Posted by: pough | March 24, 2008 3:04 PM
Oh my word, dsm is exactly right! The BIG issue here is not that cheeses cries when children are lied to, but that a TV reporter/staff doesn't understand how generations work! What a cover-up! Scandalous!
dsm, what have you to say about the circular reasoning the BS tours presenters used?
/expecting cricket sounds/
Posted by: True Bob | March 24, 2008 3:06 PM