…and this is a 
Christian Educators!
Category: Creationism • Religion
Posted on: April 3, 2008 8:33 AM, by PZ Myers
Did you know that it is assumed that if you are a Christian and a teacher, that you oppose the teaching of evolution and want to introduce creationism into the classroom?
Did you know that people purporting to represent you will be going before state legislatures and telling your representatives that creationism is the Christian perspective?
Did you know that people are collecting stories about getting slapped down for teaching nonsense in science class, and are telling politicians that it's because they are Christian?
You know, I think Christianity is awfully foolish anyway, but I'm a goddamned atheist. You don't care what I think. But I would think the concerted and largely successful effort in our culture to equate Christianity with the idiocy of belief in a 6000 year old world or a god who meddles in trivialities or denying the facts of a natural world would piss you off. Unless it's true, that is, that you don't mind having your religious beliefs associated with flaming anti-scientific lunacy.
Maybe you should try squawking a little louder. You could start by writing to David Bracklin and letting him know that stupidity isn't supposed to be a Christian sacrament.
Unless it is, of course. I wouldn't know. Atheist, remember? All I know is what I see, the stuff the loudest of you bray out in public, and boy, you Christians sure seem to hate good science.
Comments
oh, what tangled webs we weave.....
Posted by: genesgalore | April 3, 2008 8:40 AM
It's always circular logic with these people. They say or do something totally ignorant or insensitive and then claim that the reason they were such a jerk is because they are Christians. Then they start screaming about how persecuted they are for being Christian, not that they were wrong for being a jerk. Sally Kern comes to mind, but there are plenty of others.
Posted by: Mena | April 3, 2008 8:41 AM
Another "Lying for Jesus" martyrdom manufacturer. I think of all the brave Christians who've died for their their beliefs rather than change and I see his whiny petition...
I wonder if they realize how craven and pussinillous they sound? They're not going to the inquisition. They're not being fed to the Lions. They're not being burned at the stake. Or being hung.
Nope, they're devoting, at most, two-weeks of a HS sophomore biology class to something that has nothing to directly do with rebutting their religion. And is, frankly, far, far less contradictory of their religion than a good middle-eastern, bronze-age history class where the mythologies that are Judaism and Christianity get explained.
They're just fucking babies. No way around it. Gutless, wimpy babies who totally lack the faith they proclaim. They make Doubting Thomas look positively faithful.
Posted by: Moses | April 3, 2008 8:43 AM
Of course, they seem to have given up all pretense then that "creationism" is about "alternate scientific views"?
I mean, if being anti-creationist is the same as anti-christian, that means that creationism = christianity? (Or at least a religious position)
They want to eat their cake and have it, too. They cry that it isn't religious, and it is about science. But when the science gets squashed, it means that they are being persecuted for their religion.
Posted by: Pablo | April 3, 2008 8:48 AM
Alas, the title Christian is something these so-called Christians bestow based upon how closely you align to their particular set of beliefs. Mormons, for example, have never been Christian to them, even though Mormons believe in and worship Christ. (And yes, Mormonism is pretty silly too.) BUT the point is that as soon as these other Christians let on that they don't mind evolution and science being taught, Christians, who are creationist, will merely take this as proof that the Devile has led these poor folk astray, and they aren't even properly Christian any more. They also subscribe to the persecution fallacy, wherein the more opposition they get, the righter they must be.
Posted by: PixelFish | April 3, 2008 8:56 AM
You make a good point. The fundies dismiss non-fundamentalists as "Cafeteria Christians" who pick and choose what parts of the bible to believe. Why the non-fundamentalists aren't more vocal in their own defense is beyond me. They are allowing the fundies to define the Xian agenda in the public sphere and --as you keep effectively pointing out on this site--the fundies are doing a miserable job at it.
Posted by: kevin | April 3, 2008 9:00 AM
As a European Catholic, I can only protest. From our point of view, creationism is something from 'American' christians... And hopefully, not from all of them.
It's really like saying that all muslims are terrorists, which clearly isn't the case. Not all christians are creationists.
Posted by: Xegian | April 3, 2008 9:01 AM
Reason #3 Why I Am An Atheist:
Back during the five minutes when I was young and dumb and tried being a Christian, one of the ladies at the church stood up during testimony and proclaimed, "God healed my radio." And she was fucking serious. She laid her hands on and prayed and lo! her broken radio worked.
This was one of the prime reasons I exited Christianity and fled into non-belief. Subsequent events have only proven the wisdom of this decision. I believe this is why they have developed such a persecution complex: if they scream "VICTIM!!11!!" loud enough, people might be too busy sympathizing to focus on the rampant stupidity.
Not one Christian I've asked has been able to tell me why that radio was so damned important God had to heal it rather than, oh, say, the pastor, who was dying of cancer...
Posted by: Dana Hunter | April 3, 2008 9:05 AM
I would never have known that reality is just evolutionist dogma. Thank you CEAI!
Posted by: Dutch Delight | April 3, 2008 9:06 AM
Xegian wrote:
> Not all christians are creationists.
That depends who you ask. If you're dumb enough to ask a Creationist err an ID-iot, (s)he will tell you that a Christian who doesn't believe in Creation err ID-iocy isn't a real Christian.
What ever the F that is.
And from my experience, every (what I like to call) "hard-core" Christian IS an ID-iot.
Posted by: Chris | April 3, 2008 9:09 AM
On a more serious note, who is collecting all the experiences of teachers getting into trouble for teaching evolution because of the insidious fundamentalist wedge strategy that is tearing through communities and schools in small town america?
Maybe the NCSE could take this up, i'm pretty sure actual science teachers face more serious repercussions and even physical threats from the fundies then the other way around.
Posted by: Dutch Delight | April 3, 2008 9:14 AM
Nice framing.
Posted by: Janus | April 3, 2008 9:15 AM
"The Florida Department of Education has written new science standards that will require Florida science teachers to present evolution as a proven fact."
Just typical pissing and moaning from a group of nut jobs in Florida because their anti-evolution bill is having a tough time getting passed in the Florida Legislature. Poor pitiful picked on persecuted pricks not getting their asses kissed by their politicians. When Jarjar and the Evil Emperor leave Washington I have a very strong hunch the creationists lives, along with their evangelist masters, are going to fall on very hard times. All that under the table tax dollars are going to dry up.
Posted by: king j | April 3, 2008 9:20 AM
Stupidity is the most holy of all the sacraments.
Posted by: danley | April 3, 2008 9:21 AM
OK, how was this?
David, what you are doing here is treason, pure and simple. The US will gradually become a scientific backwater or eventually an economic basket case, if you, and others like you get their way.
The Florida Department of Education has written new science standards that will require Florida science teachers to present evolution as a proven fact.
David, evolution is as proven as gravity, quantum theory or relativity. This is simply the truth, and to tell kids otherwise is lying. You make yourself (perhaps through mere ignorance) a liar everytime you spout this nonsense.
There are no provisions included in the standards that will allow for the critical analysis of the theory of evolutions.
Critical analysis by whom? High School teachers? Students? The very idea is absurd. Analysis of fundamental science occurs in leading universities, not high schools. In high schools you get to teach the consensus reached by the relevant experts. Nothing more.
Thus many of us that object to the "science" used to present evolution as a fact have no recourse but to teach the lie of evolution as though it is a proven fact.
You are a liar, and you know it deep down. You don't object to the science, you object to evolution for entirely religious reasons. At least try and be honest with yourself.
1) Have you ever been confronted, reprimanded, or given a directive, for criticizing evolution or presenting scientific evidence critical of Darwinism?
You should be, if its pseudo scientific nonsense of any stripe. Astrology, Tarot Cards or creationism should be equally frowned on.
2) In light of the new dogmatic evolution standards recently passed by the Board of Education, ("Evolution is the fundamental concept underlying all of biology and is supported by multiple forms of evidence.") do you feel that you are free to give critical analysis of evolution in the classroom and not be confronted or disciplined?
But David, "Evolution IS the fundamental concept underlying all of biology and is supported by multiple forms of evidence." Thats not "Dogma" thats fact. God is triune is "Dogma", because it is slavishly held too without a shred of evidence.
You are a disgrace to your profession and a traitor to your country.
Posted by: Brian Coughlan | April 3, 2008 9:22 AM
I agree with Xegian @7
In the UK, I know lots of Christians but I don't know any who believe in the YEC nonsense. It must be an American thing.
Posted by: Tom | April 3, 2008 9:23 AM
This is why we need to push space colonization. Let these morons have a planet where they can fight among themselves for as long as they can before they realize they desperate NEED science to survive. We could even name the planet "Timeout".
Posted by: DaveX | April 3, 2008 9:25 AM
Anyone else catch the fark.com story about how Floriday state teenagers think bleach cures HIV, and that Mountain Dew and pot are contraceptives? And that it's linked to abstinence-only education?
Seems another raindrop in the hailstorm of duh.
Posted by: Talen Lee | April 3, 2008 9:27 AM
Brian @ # 15, WELL SAID
Posted by: Richard Harris | April 3, 2008 9:29 AM
Tom #16: Have you actually asked them straight out about this? They're certainly more circumspect about it than in the US, but particularly amongst evangelicals I've discovered that there is actually a disturbingly strong undercurrent of sympathy to biblical literalism.
Posted by: Chris Rowan | April 3, 2008 9:33 AM
OT
Has anyone seen this story about McCain's reluctance to talk about religion while campaigning for public office? Sen. Slime Brownback claims that this doesn't make him secular, heavens no. He's a great lover of Jesus, so Christians can feel safe voting for him.
Perhaps someone should inform Sen. Brownback that secular means precisely that your religion and government remain separate.
Posted by: Schmeer | April 3, 2008 9:33 AM
But I would think the concerted and largely successful effort in our culture to equate Christianity with the idiocy of belief in a 6000 year old world or a god who meddles in trivialities or denying the facts of a natural world would piss you off.
Yes--it DOES piss me off. And it's hardly to be blamed on the work of atheists and agnostics.
For what it's worth...
Posted by: John Farrell | April 3, 2008 9:36 AM
I sent him a copy of St. Augustine's comment on the literal interpretation of Genesis. You know, the one that starts "Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth...".
Let's see if Mr. Bracklin is smart enough to figure out that it's written about people like him.
Posted by: Kevin Klein | April 3, 2008 9:37 AM
Don't tell us, tell the creationists!!!!
That is the point of PZ's post, people! It is the _creationists_ themselves who are conflating creationism with christianity. If you are Christian and oppose being lumped in with the creationists, then stand up and object!!! Let the creationists know that you will not be lumped in with their idiocy! Stop providing tacit approval with your silence. Tell them, "YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR ME!"
It's not just atheists who should be fighting this stuff. The Christians who accept the reality of evolution have as much responsibility, if not more. More, because by not objecting, they are allowing themselves to be defined by the lunacy of the creationists. Moreover, by not objecting, they are allowing creationists to include them as supporters. The creationists are not pretending that atheists support them, but they are implying that it is a Christian cause.
If the Christians don't push the lunatics to the fringe themselves, then they are the ones letting the lunatics be their front. As such, the lunatics are going to be the ones by which they are judged.
Posted by: Pablo | April 3, 2008 9:40 AM
He's from FLORIDA. Surprise! No? Oh...
@#15:
"David, evolution is as proven as gravity, quantum theory or relativity. "
You should really avoid using "proof" in the context of science, it just confuses the creationists. (I know what you mean, semantically, but there is no "proving" in science). The better word would be "Evolution is as SUPPORTED as gravity..." etc. I actually read somewhere that there's more support for Evo than there is for the existence of the Electron! Anyways, just a polite suggestion, no offense meant. :)
Posted by: Aaron | April 3, 2008 9:44 AM
>> Xegian wrote:
>> Not all christians are creationists.
> That depends who you ask.
I think Xegian is right. Creationism is not mainstream in Europe. Catholic and Lutherian churches are dominant and neither advocate literal creationism. Having lived in Europe for many years I have only met few creationists (e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses and members of fringe "Free Evangelical Churches").
Posted by: imsd007 | April 3, 2008 9:44 AM
Thanks for the great post! I definitely can vouch for not all Christians being idiot Creationism/ID/Theory du jour believers. I say this as a Catholic and a grad student of mathematical biology (where evolution plays a big role sometimes).
Posted by: Josh | April 3, 2008 9:48 AM
I've been keeping a running tally of scientists and science supporters persecuted, beaten up, and fired by fundie creos. Well documented cases are up to 11. There are many more, most not well publicized.
Posted by: raven | April 3, 2008 9:49 AM
Dave@17
Don't call it "Timeout."
Call it "Expelled" -- because there's no intelligence allowed on it.
Posted by: Chris | April 3, 2008 9:54 AM
How about all of us that have had complaints about TEACHING evolution email him.
That might be more fun :)
Posted by: Sean Walker | April 3, 2008 9:54 AM
Pablo #24:
That's the point; I don't know of any creationists in Belgium (Like imsd007 #26). It's hard to tell them then.
And I think my government would not support any creationist who wants to teach creationism in our schools as an equal to evolution, not even in the catholic schools.
Posted by: Xegian | April 3, 2008 9:55 AM
As a "not real" Christian, I agree that we need to do more to stand up to the people who have hijacked Christianity. But when mainline Christians do attempt to make a stand, however watered down it may be (see: Evolution Sunday), it's roundly criticized by the likes of PZ Myers.
The fact is, mainline churches are seriously lacking in PR skills. The only time they manage to compete with the evengelicals for airtime is when they're debating about the role of GLBT members in the church. Even if mainline Churches were to make a significant and meaningful effort to take on the creationists, it wouldn't get any attention, and we'd be vastly outmatched by the evangelical PR machine.
Posted by: BrianK | April 3, 2008 9:55 AM
I am sort of, which means almost nobody. My list is just internet documented higher ed and state officials mostly.
Undocumented stories aren't included because the list would be too long.
Someone needs to collect this info and it needs to be hosted on a blog, website, or somewhere. My intention is to ask bloggers, the NCSE, or PT to host it as a guest for linking. Setting up a web page is all but beyond my computer skills and time.
Posted by: raven | April 3, 2008 9:55 AM
imsd007 @ 26
Apparently we have different backgrounds. Though I'm an Atheist, as are most of my friends and buddies, I know tons of those previously mentioned "hard-core" Christians.
My family included. They are Methodists. Though my mom and dad aren't into ID-iocy (at least openly), all the others are.
And I'm pretty sure I can come up with about 200 names of ID-iots in my immediate environment alone.
Heck, even Pope Nazi err Ratzi dismissed a couple of openly pro-Darwinian scientists in the Vatican and replaced them with openly pro-Creationism ID-iots.
So, there definitely is a tendency over here in Europe as well...
Posted by: Chris | April 3, 2008 10:04 AM
Fundies divide Xians into Real Xians and Fake Xians. Fake Xians might as well be atheists since they are all going to hell.
Real Xians are of course, those in their cult. This means (to them) that 80-95% of all Xians are Fake. Which also means in their theology that Xianity must be an almost dead religion kept alive by a few cults in mostly the South Central USA.
So all the moderates and Catholics can sleep in on Sunday. Fundies are very good at lying and hating and not very good at thinking or reading.
The bible says judgement is up to god not man. Theologically Fake versus Real is just wrong. A biblical literalist is simply one who has never read the book and doesn't care what it says.
Posted by: raven | April 3, 2008 10:05 AM
Why do I envision PZ standing on a tall cliff, wind howling and shouting this post at the heavens, "Christian Educators!", like some kind of bearded Beowulf...
Posted by: Jason Failes | April 3, 2008 10:09 AM
PZ, I'm a devout Christian who accepts scientific evolutionary theory. And I want to help other Christians do the same. And I see a couple of things that could help.
First, atheists who are scientists should clearly acknowledge that the atheism versus theism debate is philosophy, not science. Eugenie Scott at NCSE makes great statements about this. But if more people like you make this clear, than it would go a long way. You can try as hard as you can to attack my theistic views of cosmology and evolution, but clearly agree with Scott that our debate is philosophy, not science.
Second, public schools should insist that all students accurately recite evidences of evolutionary theory, but we shouldn't force students to accept the theory. We can draw a horse to water and offer an endless supply of saltlicks, but.... In fact, I accepted evolutionary while taking an elective graduate reading course in molecular anthropology at Penn State while I planned on busting evolutionary theory. My professor, Mark Stoneking, was extraordinarily patient with me. He agreed to teach me the basic of microevolution in human and chimp genomes while I tried to prove that the mathematics would indicate that there was no evolutionary relationship between humans and chimps. Guess what happened? My point is that I learned to recite the basics of molecular evolution while I initially rejected most evolutionary theory. And I think that it's too antagonistic to require creationists to accept evolutionary theory as long as they can recite the basic evidence.
Cheers,
Posted by: James Goetz | April 3, 2008 10:10 AM
BrianK said:
Now there's fighting talk - you never know until you try do you?
As for being automatically outmatched by the creotards - come on, even mainline churches can call upon far more resources than the likes of PZ, Dawkins, Hitchens, Eugenie Scott et al and yet they seem to have made quite a splash lately.
Rather than whining about what the creationists have, how about trying to use some of what you have and seeing how it goes eh? I'm sure PZ would be happy to give you a few tips about how to get started, he seems to be quite capable of ruffling creationist feathers on a comparatively modest budget.
Posted by: Lilly de Lure | April 3, 2008 10:13 AM
Not quite. Christians, like those I'm complaining about, do make intrusions into science, and we can use science, not just philosophy, to pin them to the wall.
I also think the retreat into "it's philosophy" is a way to chicken out. It's not philosophy; religion is lunacy. I'm not saying I'm going to back off on criticizing religion at all, I'm always going to be an ornery cuss who is rude to the faithful.
I'm just saying it's not my job, nor do you want it to be my job or the job of my fellow atheists, to clean your filthy house. That's what you have to do. If you want your house of god to be a disreputable bedlam filled to the rafters with kooks, that's your business, and it makes my job of laughing at religion easier.
It does make my other job of teaching science harder, though, and that's the one that pays my bills, so I'd appreciate it if you'd tidy up a bit.
Posted by: PZ Myers | April 3, 2008 10:23 AM
Lilly de Lure said:
We do try - Evolution Sunday is an excellent example. It's constantly been increasing the number of congregations involved, and yet it gets virtually no media coverage. The coverage it does generate is stuff like PZ's criticisms (linked in my original post at #31).
Pablo at #24 said:
Part of my point is that us "not real" Christians are fighting on two fronts - we do have to stand up and tell this to PZ and the folks here, and we have to fight against the creationist nonsense spewing from other Christian groups.
Posted by: BrianK | April 3, 2008 10:25 AM
I heard Barbara Forrest talk about her and the NCSE working behind the scenes a lot in order to catch problems before they get out of hand and end up in court. She's a goldmine on the subject i presume.
When i hear creationists whining about prosecution I keep thinking about how one of the creationist school board members in Dover quietly removed a mural, featuring evolution and made by a student from the school, and afterwards stated to the judge "I gleefully watched it burn".
I doubt these people ever engage their own conscience.
Posted by: Dutch Delight | April 3, 2008 10:28 AM
Any links to scientific evidence that is highly critical of or refutes evolution?
Posted by: HumanistDad | April 3, 2008 10:32 AM
Like I said, you're not going to see me supporting religion, ever. But you're also not going to see me trying to legislate the religious out of existence. I'm less of a threat to your reputation than your fellow christians are.
And yeah, I'm no fan of Evolution Sunday, either. I've read some of the collected sermons, and it's obvious it's a gimmick to promote a superstitious mythology rather than science.
Posted by: PZ Myers | April 3, 2008 10:32 AM
Kevin Klein @ 23,
I found some of Augustine's stuff re biblical literalism at catholic.com, and it all sounded good until I got to this:
"They [pagans] are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of [man as] many thousands of years, though reckoning by the sacred writings we find that not 6,000 years have yet passed" ([City of God],12:10).
Posted by: moioci | April 3, 2008 10:33 AM
Creationism isn't the "Christian" perspective; it is the regressive perspective.
There is nothing inherent in the teachings of Jesus that demands or suggests that one have a literal belief in scripture. Quite frankly, most people today who call themselves "Christian" know very little (if anything at all) about what Jesus actually taught. I'd even bet that were Jesus around today that these same people who worship him as a deity would call him an anti-American, terrorist-loving hippie!
I don't consider Jesus as divine; his mother could not have been a virgin when she was pregnant with him; he may or may not have been executed by crucifixion; if he were executed, there is no possibility that he rose from the dead three days after he died.
But none of that is important to me in terms of the value of his teachings. I consider Jesus to have been a great teacher, a rabbi, a man who challenged us to rise above our base natures and to see everyone in the world as our neighbor and worthy of respect. Nothing in these teachings requires the supernatural!!
I really wish that the people who claim to follow Jesus would actually stop for a minute and actually read what the Bible says about his teachings. It is just maddening!
Posted by: Jonathon | April 3, 2008 10:36 AM
Let me just echo comment 12. Congratulations, PZ. This is how to fr*me this issue.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | April 3, 2008 10:37 AM
BrianK said:
Then might I suggest you switch your tactics to ones which do get you publicity - you say yourself in post #31 that you are quite capable of getting Media attention over the GLBT debate, why is media attention such a big problem when it comes to evolution? Get creative, pull some sort of stunt that screams "Newsworthy" (I'm not your PR person, but I'm sure there must be at least one who agrees with you and is willing to help, why not get their advice about what is likely to get you some press attention)!
Hang on, you are worried about standing up for what you think because it might generate criticism? Might I suggest that you have a look at Raven's post (#28) for a list of what some teachers/administrators have gone through for sticking up for evolution? You are asking me to take seriously people who will stop standing up for their beliefs because PZ criticises them?
A few mocking words from PZ should not be enough stymie people if they are determined to stand up for themselves, or are you suggesting that PZ should just shut up and be nice for the greater good (where have we heard that before)?
Posted by: Lilly de Lure | April 3, 2008 10:46 AM
My experience living for many years in New Zealand, Canada and Scotland is that creationsim is genuinely utterly absent even from the clergy there. It really is an American obsession, and a bemusing one at that.
Posted by: emily | April 3, 2008 10:47 AM
James (@35) I'm glad that worked for you. I don't think any teacher is trying to force belief on their students, just knowledge of the standard theory.
Still waiting for my favorite xian, Scott Hatfield, to weigh in on this.
Posted by: Bruce | April 3, 2008 10:48 AM
Most of the science teachers in our local school system and a disproportionate number of grade school teachers have all been hired form Olivet Nazarene University. This is the very same university that persecuted Richard Colling. This is a prime example of human evolution taught in our High School. Assignment: Color the picture of the skull on the handout. That is it, no other mention of human evolution considered. The little kids want to study dinosaurs, no can't do that because all the dinosaur books mention the age of the earth in millions of years and that nasty evolution word is all over the place. I guess a person could call this a form of censorship.
Catholics are not Christians. The Pope is the anti -Christ, just ask any true Christian.
Posted by: king j | April 3, 2008 10:49 AM
"Accept"? Nobody's asking anybody to "accept" anything. Students have the inalienable right to believe whatever they like. They can believe that 2+2=7, and that is their right--but that doesn't mean they won't get a poor grade if they insist on asserting it in a math classroom. They can believe that the holocaust never occurred, but that doesn't mean they won't get a poor grade for asserting it in a history classroom. They can believe that the sun goes around the earth if they like, but it's going to tank their astronomy grade if they assert it.
All that anyone's ever demanded (at the high school level) is that students learn facts. They don't need to believe them, just know them. What do you want? Do you want every sentence in the Evolution chapter to begin "The theory of evolution states that--"?
Posted by: lytefoot | April 3, 2008 10:51 AM
raven (#32):
I'd be happy to host your list as a blog post at the very least. Since you say your list contains "internet documented" items, I assume you have links to news stories and whatnot substantiating each entry. (If you don't, I can poke around a bit, although naturally, the more work that's already been done, the sooner we can get a useful list online.) My contact information is here, if you'd like to send your notes via e-mail.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | April 3, 2008 10:53 AM
"But I would think the concerted and largely successful effort in our culture to equate Christianity with the idiocy of belief in a 6000 year old world or a god who meddles in trivialities or denying the facts of a natural world would piss you off."
This is mainly an American problem, and mainly due to the Evangelicals (there are more than 80 million Evangelicals in the US, and less than 2 in Europe). They are also the fastest growing brand of Christianity in the USA. If they can't solve it, too bad for them, in 50 years, the "ESA: Evangelical States of America" will be the economic equivallent of Somalia today.
Pro Science Christians, non believers, etc... should denounce this lunacy, but it won't help. Because people who move towards Evangelicalism, do it precisely for that reason, because they want to find a justification for their conservative morality and their conviction that America is a nation blessed by God who has granted it with a special mission to spread freedom and democracy throughout the world.
It is only when they will realise that this has failed desperately, that they have become much poorer than Europe, China and other nations, that things will really change.
Posted by: negentropyeater | April 3, 2008 10:54 AM
I worked for a little while selling children's books to elementary school libraries. One of our best sellers was a series on dinosaurs that didn't mention the age of the earth or evolution. The talked about dinosaur anatomy and habits, what their ecology was like, and so on. There wasn't anything FALSE in them, though some of the language was deliberately vague ("A long time ago").
This was a selling point, if the librarians let us get that part out. Many of them would shut us down with a, "We can't have any books on dinosaurs in our library," before we could tell them, and I was never a bold enough salesperson to push on in the face of that.
Interestingly, after a while I stopped calling the real hard core anti-dinosaur crowd, because they never bought anything from me. They let my company absorb the costs of selling the books to them, then went and bought from another vendor. They didn't do it with any malice, either, they just didn't think about it.
Posted by: lytefoot | April 3, 2008 11:02 AM
"...stupidity isn't supposed to be a Christian sacrament."
Too bad there isn't an official sin associated with stupidity.
Anger, blasphemy, envy, malice,... STUPIDITY!
As Oscar Wilde said: "There is no sin except stupidity."
But then they would invent a prayer to forgive it.
Never mind.
Posted by: CalGeorge | April 3, 2008 11:18 AM
PZ#37, I suppose that you were replying to me. You make your job of teaching science harder by refusing to acknowledge that religion is philosophy. And you sound like an incompetent scholar when you say that religion isn't philosophy. On the other hand, your science research indicates competence.
Have you made any attempts to challenge university philosophy departments in regards to their view of religion?
And I never suggested that science cannot test various creationist claims such as a 6,000 year old universe or baraminology. And philosophy such as the analysis of cosmology extensively borrows from science. Have you ever read anything about the philosophy of science?
I merely bring up that more atheists should join Scott in clearly stating that the atheism versus theism debate is philosophy (that extensively borrows from science) because many of my Christian colleagues don't believe me that atheists see it that way. And it would make your job of teaching science easier if you would do it. And you can still participate in your hobby of ridiculing religion apart from the science classroom. Or do you think that the science classroom is a place to ridicule religion in general?
And I'm curious about why you think my theistic views or cosmology and evolution are lunacy. Are you capable of explaining that?
Cheers,
Posted by: James Goetz | April 3, 2008 11:21 AM
Here's the thing. I'm a Christian, and I'm extremely pro-science (biochemistry major looking forward to earning a PhD or MD in the future) and think these people are the definition of stupid.
Guess what? It doesn't matter. Since I'm not an idiot with no life, I'm not going to dedicate my pointless life to squawking about whatever annoyed me four seconds ago. The ID-iots WILL dedicate their pointless lives to squawking about whatever annoyed them four seconds ago, so more people will hear them.
Yeah, I speak out against this garbage at any chance I get, but I don't think it's worth the time and money to found an entire organization (or 2, or 3) and a museum to complain about it. But these guys do!
Posted by: Scott | April 3, 2008 11:24 AM
Keep a copy of Bracklin's letter around, because the reason this idiot is asking for stories is that they haven't had any examples of "persecution of those who 'question' evolution" to the present time. That is to say, it's a non-problem, and their "concern for academic freedom" only extends to biological matters.
I can't say that they wouldn't be asking for more stories if they had any, I just know that the opponents of their nonsense have noted the fact that there are no cases where "questioning evolution" (or unfortunately, the teaching ID/creationism, which likely has happened) has caused anyone any problems. So this buffoon has to try to find instances of a problem for their "solution," in the hope of selling it to the legislators.
Even one of the sponsors of the bill (a dentist--yay, another expert on the matter) talked up the importance of "prevention" at the press conference with Stein, which one may presume was because he didn't know of any problem his "solution" would fix.
This letter is just more of the same, then, they're trying to sell a "solution" to a "problem" that doesn't exist (not for legitimate questions anyway--which includes the teacher fielding a few ID/creation questions from students, IMO), just like they did when showing Expelled.
For, above all, the IDiots know that ID has no excuses for producing no results nor even any tentative legitimate scientific hypotheses, unless they have been prevented from doing so. Of course they haven't been, however, to keep ID looking like science to their stupid sheep, they have to fall back on the persecution theme.
Bracklin's dearly hoping that it is true, and although I doubt he'll find any legitimate problems at all (as we know, suppression of evolution teaching is rampant, by contrast), he will get some whining from people who feel persecuted for having been taught science, and perhaps from people who have been prevented from teaching pseudoscience. Whether he'll dare to use any of that tripe remains to be seen.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Glen Davidson | April 3, 2008 11:24 AM
Let me go on the record once again. I am not sure whether my voice is that of a minority in Christianity, or whether it is simply that those who are the least educated about their own faith, the Bible, and science are the most vocal, and manage to intimidate others or make them feel guilty so that those with other viewpoints do not speak up.
About me (relevant posts from my blog, rather than go on at length here):
I am a Christian
http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2007/09/why-i-am-christian.html
A progressive Christian
http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2008/04/under-new-management.html
I've been banned from Uncommon Descent (and my complaint about it is, ironically, still up at the Expelled web site)
http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2008/04/still-not-expelled-from-expelled.html
I spend a lot of time arguing against Intelligent Design and Young-Earth Creationism from a Christian standpoint
http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/search?q=intelligent+design
Posted by: James McGrath | April 3, 2008 11:24 AM
To the Christians who say "We are trying! Nobody is paying attention!" I say bull. We waited and waited for you to do something, but when you failed we non-believers took up the cause.
And we're succeeding. People are starting to talk. We're getting media attention. And now we're wondering how dedicated you are to changing your house from, as PZ put it so excellently, a "disreputable bedlam filled to the rafters with kooks."
Posted by: Icelander | April 3, 2008 11:35 AM
Why the non-fundamentalists aren't more vocal in their own defense is beyond me.
Duh! If they say they don't believe in creationism, they are told they aren't good Christians. If they say they believe in Christ, they are derided and made fun of by the athiests. They get you coming and going.
It's a heckuva lot more fun to watch the fundies and athiests duke it out than to become cannon fodder for both sides. Most people I know are somewhere in the middle and can't tolerate the arrogance or stupidity of either extreme. It's just easier to tune it all out.
Posted by: Cherish | April 3, 2008 11:36 AM
PZ, I know that you are being provocative, but there are many christians who are in the trenches trying to stop the idiots like Bracken.
Of course Bracken pisses me off. At the same time, it makes my life easier as we defeat in the courts challenge after challenge to solid science from this folks. As long as we get them to "frame" the issue as a religious one, they lose.
So for my part...Lets see, I have testified before legislative panels, I have given countless workshops for K-12 teachers, I have given workshops to Clergy and parents groups I have written tons of letters. I have done many television and radio interviews etc. When appropriate or asked I indicate I am a scientist and christian (well LDS, so most christians won't claim me). (I got one red faced politician to blow his lid and yell "Your God and my God is different!" To which I was able to have my one and only ever rhetorical victory by telling him I objected to his attack on my beliefs (since I had already testified I was LDS) Exposing the legislators supporting the bill, that the bill was about teaching who was the correct God, not about teaching good science.
Sorry I haven't had time to start a blog, time to look at every nutcase, but I have helped to hold my local nutcases accountable when I could (this includes time spent in Utah), luckily there were many who came before me esp in Utah and BYU, who have been fighting anti-science propaganda (evolution and other science issues) risking jobs and livelihood along the way.
Posted by: Randy | April 3, 2008 11:37 AM
BrianK said:
Good point. I can just imagine someone like a Quaker or a Unitarian coming up to PZ and saying how great it is that he is opposing creationism and how they'd like to help. And in my imagination PZ cries "Begone, vile religious fanatic! Go help your natural allies the creationists!" At least that's what many of PZ's statements here would lead me to expect.
Posted by: Joe Felsenstein | April 3, 2008 11:39 AM
Blake, got a deal. I'll be contacting you sometime today.
1. Be careful what you wish for. This list is very damming to creos and they are terrified of it.
They will try to hack your computers and most likely threaten you. I should know, been through the threat cycle myself a few times, a dismal experience. The serious ones aren't death threats scrawled on a paper towel in crayon. They are people who file SLAPP law suits and install sophisticated spyware programs on your systems.
2. All my info was collected with Google off the internet and is documentable by links. Documentation will not be a problem. A lot of it came from Pandasthumb.
There are a lot more threats and harassment that has not been reported publicly, some ominous and some just silly. Mplavcan, a paleoanthropologist in Arkansas, said that students used to hold prayer vigils outside his office. These stories would make another fun post or two.
Later, got some real work to do. Thanks a lot, Raven.
Posted by: raven | April 3, 2008 11:41 AM
@ James Goetz #54: A correction or two: The debate over theism vs. atheism can be philosophy, but it needn't be and often isn't. Philosophy requires careful rational analysis of arguments and evidence; many proponents of theism embrace "faith" over reason, and thus are engaged in nothing like philosophy.
Likewise, the theism vs. atheism debate can be a scientific debate, depending on what the god is supposed to have done. The age of the Earth is a scientific issue. If one's theism postulates a god who created the Earth 6,000 years ago, then the atheist position is supported by science (i.e., science tells us that THAT god doesn't exist).
Of course, there will always be questions that can be filed under philosophy of religion, philosophy of science, epistemology, etc. But the mere fact that there is *a* philosophical issue of theism vs. atheism does not imply that this issue exhausts the debate.
Posted by: Physicalist | April 3, 2008 11:43 AM
James, I think there are plenty of religious people who would object to calling religion "philosophy".
And it simply is the case that all religions except the weakest Deism do make empirical claims about the physical world that can be refuted scientifically. If you want to argue that there was "something" before the universe that caused it, that's fine, but if you also argue that such "something" has had any intervention in the physical world since that time, that is an empirical and not "philosophical" claim, and if you're not arguing that, if you think that such "something" has remained completely uninvolved in the physical world since the beginning of time (e.g., doesn't answer prayers, doesn't perform miracles, doesn't intervene at all in events) why on earth would you worship such a thing?
Posted by: Tulse | April 3, 2008 11:47 AM
Cherish: How's your butt feeling sitting on that fence? Who cares if a bunch of nutjobs don't think you're a good Christian? Your beliefs are your own. Stand up for what you know is right otherwise don't complain when atheists lump you all in together!
Posted by: maxi | April 3, 2008 11:48 AM
I'll make a deal right here: You come out against retards who think the Bible is a science book, and I won't make fun of your belief in an unverifiable and illogical being.
Posted by: Icelander | April 3, 2008 11:49 AM
All the more reason to get a list together which can be distributed and mirrored. One computer can fail, but the Network survives.
You can't stop the signal.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | April 3, 2008 11:52 AM
I sincerely doubt the probability for meeting those is much larger than zero. Most religions have a creation myth, and christianity has one (well, technically two) explicit in their main dogmatic text.
Now, you can certainly find large groups of non-fundie christians who characterizes this text as allegoric, while keeping it. But many of those seem to retain a belief in a creator, making a small letter gap creationism compared to fundies capital letter explicit Creationism.
You can meet deists or pantheists people who instead discuss interventionist or mystic signs of their deities in nature, but I'm not sure how many are bona fide christians.
Posted by: Torbjörn Larsson, OM | April 3, 2008 11:55 AM
Indeed, all of Christianity hinges on the fact that people are created by god and have turned their back on it. Without this, there is no reason for god to come back and symbolically sacrifice itself, except not because it didn't actually die, so that we can live a life without suffering. Eventually.
Posted by: Icelander | April 3, 2008 12:00 PM
Slightly OT: A friend picked up a book for me- a discard on sale from the Fargo ND public library: an omnibus volume Darwin's Origin of species and the Descent of Man. This weekend, first chance, I will check into it and find out WHY such a book was removed from the shelves. I am not yelling conspiracy theory, but this discard is thoughtless.
Posted by: mothra | April 3, 2008 12:02 PM